Originally posted by doug200463 Game designers need to come up with new ideas when it comes to advancing your character, I have got so sick of the normal MMO grind, more and more levels added, quests holding me in zones, when i just want to move on to another zone.. I have went back to Ultima Online.. where you can explore the whole world w/o having to worry about mobs being over level.. NO MORE LEVELS!!!
also tired of the level and quest grind.
I want a themepark MMO without the on rails levels, or zone levels.
I want to go where I want, and play content in whatever order I want to.
I can get on board with this to an extent. I mean I don't know why those pesky Pandaren turtles are so much tougher than the starting area turtles.
However, part of the reason that people play games like these is progression. Without progression, the games simply don't work. Some people might get sick of leveling grinds, but that's also the reason that people stay. Rep grinds, level grinds, PvP grinds. Grind....... with a bit of progression mixed in.
The solution isn't to abandon the game, though. I think WoW caters to the core MMO market. What the OP is talking about is a niche of an already niche market.
Originally posted by doug200463 Game designers need to come up with new ideas when it comes to advancing your character, I have got so sick of the normal MMO grind, more and more levels added, quests holding me in zones, when i just want to move on to another zone.. I have went back to Ultima Online.. where you can explore the whole world w/o having to worry about mobs being over level.. NO MORE LEVELS!!!
If you want an aspect in a game, that when Oblivion was out the #1 mod for it was to remove the mob auto-leveling with a player, maybe MMORPGs aren't your genre.
Gray mobs are gray so tradeskillers can go back and get mats without feeling each piece of leather was an x4 boss, in a game where each piece of crafted gear can take 10 hides...for each piece.
Those wanting a hack and slash game play a hack and slash game. Fight every step of the way, but MMORPGs is much more than JUST fighting all the time, in real time, with 10 macroed keys.
I would suggest that if you don't like player progression systems which are all a type of leveling except maybe better disguised in some cases and questing...stop playing any type of CRPG MMO or not,because both are fundamental pillars of the genre.
I think Eve Online had the right idea - it's just a pity that the most boring activities (using spreadsheets) happen to be the most rewarding in the game.
In theory, player-made content should hold more interest long-term, but devs don't seem to tap this resource.
The way modern MMOs are designed now is that you do quests to gain powers, while it should be that you gain powers to do quests.
Quests are nothing else but mundane tasks that rewards you with exp, skills and gear, all which you don't really need for overcome the challenge you're put against (that's because your character is powerful enough even naked and very poorly armed).
The way it should be is that players had to figure how to improve their characters to be able to complete a quest. This way quests would feel important once again, and not something you have to do countless times to gain levels for reaching endgame.
Originally posted by Drakynn I would suggest that if you don't like player progression systems which are all a type of leveling except maybe better disguised in some cases and questing...stop playing any type of CRPG MMO or not,because both are fundamental pillars of the genre.
No - this sounds like an urban legend. How about Eve Online and the forthcoming Elite: Dangerous and Star Citizen?
I think Eve Online had the right idea - it's just a pity that the most boring activities (using spreadsheets) happen to be the most rewarding in the game.
In theory, player-made content should hold more interest long-term, but devs don't seem to tap this resource.
CCP doesn't want PvE in their game, which is a shame. If CCP released EvE as a PvE game, it probably would've beat WoW, as the crafting system in that game is truly galactic in scope (it's also a very pretty game if you're a astronomer type). All the napkin math the game requires ensures paper will never go extinct, either! lol
Shame PvP ruined the game for the masses, and incursions (PvE raid level fights) came too late to really enjoy the game. If CCP released EvE 2.0 as a PvE space sim...bye WoW, bye, bye, bye!!!
I'm so sick of MMORPG's they should just give me max stats as soon as i make my character. And when thats done ill make a thread complaining about having to actually try to find the gear to make myself stronger.
My reaction.
Why don't you just go play a shooter. MMORPG's arent the instant gratification type of game. it takes time and efford to become stronger. That way you get used to everything you are using as you slowly build it. Games that start you off at the finish line generally die out quickly, Or are called Call of Duty.
Also if you dont want vertical Progression look up The Secret World. Its not a vertical Progression.
Wrong.. did you not read the 1st sentence? "Game designers need to come up with new ideas when it comes to advancing your character" keyword, "Advancing" not gimmie...
Of course, if you have a game with a bajillion skills, of which (a bajillion minus 10) is so situational you will need them maybe once per raid/battleground, it may still take a while to go through all those skills and explain them.
It may take a while.. but its something differnt.. GW1 was a nice change from time to time, it just too bad it was so heavily instanced
I think the OP might enjoy playing Elite: Dangerous when it's released in a few months: http://elite.frontier.co.uk/
There is no leveling, you have total freedom - you can go anywhere and everywhere you like, quests are entirely optional and there is no advantage to doing quests over other optional activities - such as being a pirate, a miner, an explorer, a trader, or a combination of things.
Not really a space gamer.. prefer dragons and wizards and castles, oh my
The way modern MMOs are designed now is that you do quests to gain powers, while it should be that you gain powers to do quests.
Quests are nothing else but mundane tasks that rewards you with exp, skills and gear, all which you don't really need for overcome the challenge you're put against (that's because your character is powerful enough even naked and very poorly armed).
The way it should be is that players had to figure how to improve their characters to be able to complete a quest. This way quests would feel important once again, and not something you have to do countless times to gain levels for reaching endgame.
I like this idea, maybe instead of a zone having 100 quests, it only have 10, and make them challenging & interesting, and instead of giving xp, allowing you to level, you just get simple gear, Skills, skill points which are fed into a tree, ect.. and make all the zones level free, so if you get sick of pounding your head against a wall in a certian quest, you can move on, and come back later.
it would be easy to remove levels, and still have progression.. it just would be a differnt form of progression, which is EXACTLY what my OP was asking for.
I could get behind the idea of not having questing in a corridor, but I am a fan of having quests and stories in general in games. Fallout 3 in particular was a lot of fun because of the free form nature of the questing in the game. I could completely ignore the central quest line or completely ignore the side quests, or do everything all at once. The bonuses for completing content made the game more fun though, so there was a lot of incentive to do a lot of quests and kill a lot of stuff.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by doug200463 Game designers need to come up with new ideas when it comes to advancing your character, I have got so sick of the normal MMO grind, more and more levels added, quests holding me in zones, when i just want to move on to another zone.. I have went back to Ultima Online.. where you can explore the whole world w/o having to worry about mobs being over level.. NO MORE LEVELS!!!
also tired of the level and quest grind.
I want a themepark MMO without the on rails levels, or zone levels.
I want to go where I want, and play content in whatever order I want to.
There was a wonderful MMO like that: SWG ( pre cu )
Glorius.
You can acually still play Star Wars Galaxies, http://www.swgemu.com/forums/forum.php The developers of the SGWEMU run there own servers and have over 2000 players on daily, i know i said that im not much of a space gamer, but Im a huge star wars fan.. the only problem i seem to be having with SWG is the learning curve.. its very advanced and will take alot of time to learn..
Originally posted by doug200463 Game designers need to come up with new ideas when it comes to advancing your character, I have got so sick of the normal MMO grind, more and more levels added, quests holding me in zones, when i just want to move on to another zone.. I have went back to Ultima Online.. where you can explore the whole world w/o having to worry about mobs being over level.. NO MORE LEVELS!!!
You may like EQ Next Landmark when it's done. I loved Uo and this is the next best thing with updated graphics and building for me.
I am eagerly awaiting EQNL, but if it turns out to be Minecraft on steroids then i will be getting bored of it really quick
I think the OP might enjoy playing Elite: Dangerous when it's released in a few months: http://elite.frontier.co.uk/
There is no leveling, you have total freedom - you can go anywhere and everywhere you like, quests are entirely optional and there is no advantage to doing quests over other optional activities - such as being a pirate, a miner, an explorer, a trader, or a combination of things.
Not really a space gamer.. prefer dragons and wizards and castles, oh my
I suspect that what you are looking for is an MMORPG that has a world created using 'procedural generation'. This is because you are wanting such enormous freedom.
The only game I can think of would be an online version of MineCraft - or something more advanced that uses these concepts.
Originally posted by Drakynn I would suggest that if you don't like player progression systems which are all a type of leveling except maybe better disguised in some cases and questing...stop playing any type of CRPG MMO or not,because both are fundamental pillars of the genre.
No - this sounds like an urban legend. How about Eve Online and the forthcoming Elite: Dangerous and Star Citizen?
Eve has progression systems aplenty including offline time spent .Star Citizen and Elite are not RPGs and could be argued to not be MMOs.
Originally posted by doug200463 Game designers need to come up with new ideas when it comes to advancing your character, I have got so sick of the normal MMO grind, more and more levels added, quests holding me in zones, when i just want to move on to another zone.. I have went back to Ultima Online.. where you can explore the whole world w/o having to worry about mobs being over level.. NO MORE LEVELS!!!
You know what would make this topic interested is if it was somewhat constructive.
So instead of telling Game Designers to come up with new idea's why don't you OP come up some idea's.
I don't mind level's, What I don't like is level gated content, meaning I can not enter that dungeon/cave/area or zone untill I reach level X.
I like the idea to be able to explore and perhaps get killed by something much stronger (higher leveld) then I am. Gives me purpouse to become stronger. I would be bored very quickly if I could explore anywhere and fight anything if the game is without levels.
On the other hand I do enjoy levelless games but they are not in the RPG's or MMORPG's.
I have no problems addepting to either a Skill system or a leveling system aslong both give a certiain form of freedom ingame.
Originally posted by Drakynn I would suggest that if you don't like player progression systems which are all a type of leveling except maybe better disguised in some cases and questing...stop playing any type of CRPG MMO or not,because both are fundamental pillars of the genre.
No - this sounds like an urban legend. How about Eve Online and the forthcoming Elite: Dangerous and Star Citizen?
Eve has progression systems aplenty including offline time spent .Star Citizen and Elite are not RPGs and could be argued to not be MMOs.
EvE also has forced FFA PvP, which isn't about actual total "freedom" unless you play by FFA PvP "rules" (and if CCP doesn't help whatever leading corp out, first. When the publisher does things like that, the game really isn't player controlled, or about "doing your own thing").
Most gamers just want to login to find something they're interested in doing, not locked down with barriers, that are more there to show "see we're a MMO" more, than anything else. In PvE, that's able to grind something they like to grind and the same in PvP. It's the obnoxious barriers (e.g., auto-leveling mobs and you're that leathercrafting hunter who'll develop carpal tunnel syndrome because every creature is now x4 in difficulty; or 3hr waits to even get into a lowly dungeon, as the tank and healing classes suck to the point that the developers have to bribe players to play the roles...as they took the fun factor out when they made the DPS toons more fun at those roles expense!).
It comes down to support devs that fix the mechanics issues (like Holy Trinity issues); who understand PvE and PvP gamer needs; who believe in more time you're online playing = more of an IP fan, than spending that time on forums as the gameplay SUCKS (and it sucks because constant nerfing/buffing cycles as a mechanics is duller than watching paint dry!).
Originally posted by doug200463 Game designers need to come up with new ideas when it comes to advancing your character, I have got so sick of the normal MMO grind, more and more levels added, quests holding me in zones, when i just want to move on to another zone.. I have went back to Ultima Online.. where you can explore the whole world w/o having to worry about mobs being over level.. NO MORE LEVELS!!!
You know what would make this topic interested is if it was somewhat constructive.
So instead of telling Game Designers to come up with new idea's why don't you OP come up some idea's.
I don't mind level's, What I don't like is level gated content, meaning I can not enter that dungeon/cave/area or zone untill I reach level X.
I like the idea to be able to explore and perhaps get killed by something much stronger (higher leveld) then I am. Gives me purpouse to become stronger. I would be bored very quickly if I could explore anywhere and fight anything if the game is without levels.
On the other hand I do enjoy levelless games but they are not in the RPG's or MMORPG's.
I have no problems addepting to either a Skill system or a leveling system aslong both give a certiain form of freedom ingame.
You should probably read more of my posts on this thread..
"Game designers need to come up with new ideas when it comes to advancing your character"
Possibly but I absolutely love leveling. I know others do as well. Of course there are those who don't. maybe it's more about just having different types of games that cater to different audiences.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Comments
I can get on board with this to an extent. I mean I don't know why those pesky Pandaren turtles are so much tougher than the starting area turtles.
However, part of the reason that people play games like these is progression. Without progression, the games simply don't work. Some people might get sick of leveling grinds, but that's also the reason that people stay. Rep grinds, level grinds, PvP grinds. Grind....... with a bit of progression mixed in.
The solution isn't to abandon the game, though. I think WoW caters to the core MMO market. What the OP is talking about is a niche of an already niche market.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
If you want an aspect in a game, that when Oblivion was out the #1 mod for it was to remove the mob auto-leveling with a player, maybe MMORPGs aren't your genre.
Gray mobs are gray so tradeskillers can go back and get mats without feeling each piece of leather was an x4 boss, in a game where each piece of crafted gear can take 10 hides...for each piece.
Those wanting a hack and slash game play a hack and slash game. Fight every step of the way, but MMORPGs is much more than JUST fighting all the time, in real time, with 10 macroed keys.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
I think Eve Online had the right idea - it's just a pity that the most boring activities (using spreadsheets) happen to be the most rewarding in the game.
In theory, player-made content should hold more interest long-term, but devs don't seem to tap this resource.
The answer is actually quite simple.
The way modern MMOs are designed now is that you do quests to gain powers, while it should be that you gain powers to do quests.
Quests are nothing else but mundane tasks that rewards you with exp, skills and gear, all which you don't really need for overcome the challenge you're put against (that's because your character is powerful enough even naked and very poorly armed).
The way it should be is that players had to figure how to improve their characters to be able to complete a quest. This way quests would feel important once again, and not something you have to do countless times to gain levels for reaching endgame.
No - this sounds like an urban legend. How about Eve Online and the forthcoming Elite: Dangerous and Star Citizen?
CCP doesn't want PvE in their game, which is a shame. If CCP released EvE as a PvE game, it probably would've beat WoW, as the crafting system in that game is truly galactic in scope (it's also a very pretty game if you're a astronomer type). All the napkin math the game requires ensures paper will never go extinct, either! lol
Shame PvP ruined the game for the masses, and incursions (PvE raid level fights) came too late to really enjoy the game. If CCP released EvE 2.0 as a PvE space sim...bye WoW, bye, bye, bye!!!
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Wrong.. did you not read the 1st sentence? "Game designers need to come up with new ideas when it comes to advancing your character" keyword, "Advancing" not gimmie...
It may take a while.. but its something differnt.. GW1 was a nice change from time to time, it just too bad it was so heavily instanced
Not really a space gamer.. prefer dragons and wizards and castles, oh my
one word "EvE"
No amount of questing / grinding will improve your characters skills, its all about time.
See my signature for a trial play and see what i mean about no more questing.
This post is all my opinion, but I welcome debate on anything i have put, however, personal slander / name calling belongs in game
where of course you're welcome to call me names im often found lounging about in EvE online.
Use this code for 21days trial in eve online https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=d385aff2-794a-44a4-96f1-3967ccf6d720&action=buddy
I like this idea, maybe instead of a zone having 100 quests, it only have 10, and make them challenging & interesting, and instead of giving xp, allowing you to level, you just get simple gear, Skills, skill points which are fed into a tree, ect.. and make all the zones level free, so if you get sick of pounding your head against a wall in a certian quest, you can move on, and come back later.
it would be easy to remove levels, and still have progression.. it just would be a differnt form of progression, which is EXACTLY what my OP was asking for.
Thanks, but im just not into space gaming..
I could get behind the idea of not having questing in a corridor, but I am a fan of having quests and stories in general in games. Fallout 3 in particular was a lot of fun because of the free form nature of the questing in the game. I could completely ignore the central quest line or completely ignore the side quests, or do everything all at once. The bonuses for completing content made the game more fun though, so there was a lot of incentive to do a lot of quests and kill a lot of stuff.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
You can acually still play Star Wars Galaxies, http://www.swgemu.com/forums/forum.php The developers of the SGWEMU run there own servers and have over 2000 players on daily, i know i said that im not much of a space gamer, but Im a huge star wars fan.. the only problem i seem to be having with SWG is the learning curve.. its very advanced and will take alot of time to learn..
I am eagerly awaiting EQNL, but if it turns out to be Minecraft on steroids then i will be getting bored of it really quick
I suspect that what you are looking for is an MMORPG that has a world created using 'procedural generation'. This is because you are wanting such enormous freedom.
The only game I can think of would be an online version of MineCraft - or something more advanced that uses these concepts.
Eve has progression systems aplenty including offline time spent .Star Citizen and Elite are not RPGs and could be argued to not be MMOs.
You know what would make this topic interested is if it was somewhat constructive.
So instead of telling Game Designers to come up with new idea's why don't you OP come up some idea's.
I don't mind level's, What I don't like is level gated content, meaning I can not enter that dungeon/cave/area or zone untill I reach level X.
I like the idea to be able to explore and perhaps get killed by something much stronger (higher leveld) then I am. Gives me purpouse to become stronger. I would be bored very quickly if I could explore anywhere and fight anything if the game is without levels.
On the other hand I do enjoy levelless games but they are not in the RPG's or MMORPG's.
I have no problems addepting to either a Skill system or a leveling system aslong both give a certiain form of freedom ingame.
EvE also has forced FFA PvP, which isn't about actual total "freedom" unless you play by FFA PvP "rules" (and if CCP doesn't help whatever leading corp out, first. When the publisher does things like that, the game really isn't player controlled, or about "doing your own thing").
Most gamers just want to login to find something they're interested in doing, not locked down with barriers, that are more there to show "see we're a MMO" more, than anything else. In PvE, that's able to grind something they like to grind and the same in PvP. It's the obnoxious barriers (e.g., auto-leveling mobs and you're that leathercrafting hunter who'll develop carpal tunnel syndrome because every creature is now x4 in difficulty; or 3hr waits to even get into a lowly dungeon, as the tank and healing classes suck to the point that the developers have to bribe players to play the roles...as they took the fun factor out when they made the DPS toons more fun at those roles expense!).
It comes down to support devs that fix the mechanics issues (like Holy Trinity issues); who understand PvE and PvP gamer needs; who believe in more time you're online playing = more of an IP fan, than spending that time on forums as the gameplay SUCKS (and it sucks because constant nerfing/buffing cycles as a mechanics is duller than watching paint dry!).
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
You should probably read more of my posts on this thread..
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Possibly but I absolutely love leveling. I know others do as well. Of course there are those who don't. maybe it's more about just having different types of games that cater to different audiences.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo