Originally posted by Homitu I really enjoyed the month and a half I played of FFXIV, but not enough for me to keep a sub after that second month expired. I'd definitely consider coming back in a casual capacity if it went f2p, but I doubt that'd be any time soon.
That's why F2P games are popular its that casual word you mentioned. People play them casually along with 5 other F2P games simultaneously.
Yup...key word is CASUAL.
Why we will probably not see any innovative gameplay until this genre is most likely in it's deathbed.
Remember what happened to the console way back when??? Thank god for Nintendo....
Or how about those arcades that were the rage a while back...
That is some weird logic there. What has innovation got anything to do with casual and hardcore play styles?
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.' -Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid." -Luke McKinney
Yeah I just let my sub lapse this month in preps for ESO but if the game goes F2P I likely won't go back.
I don't like F2P games and I think the F2P communities with the exception of Rift and GW2, are pretty awful. I hope they don't go the way of the greed train and instead just settle in on a nice number of subs and keep developing for those people that continue to sub like FFXI did.
Did anyone really not see f2p coming? The game didn't have fantastic numbers at peak, they have been padding numbers desperately for many months now. Every interview he gives he is flanked by PR where he has to look to them to ask if he can answer questions related to player numbers.
The game will probably go free to play fairly soon from reading that because he knows the reaction fanboys will have so there is no way he would be saying this unless it was coming very soon, I'll still never play it again personally but it's still funny that the fanboys that thought this game was somehow better than all the rest can finally now see the light in that it's just the same as all the others (even though they will sell it as a good thing like Ziz is doing). I applaud them for hiding behind smoke and mirrors as long as they have but they can't lie to the people in charge and they have obviously made the decision to change payment model, no way he would be talking this way otherwise. The truth is he always did say that if the game went below a certain number he would be forced to change to something else, that time has obviously already come.
This isn't because "players want it" this is because too many players have left and they are getting close to critical failure numbers (and no I don't buy the 500k login numbers at all), I understand spin but most people aren't fooled by it unless they want to be. To put it simply this game cost way too much money over the 9 years it took to create to be profitable on the small playerbase they have, free to play with micro transactions is the only hope this game has to be profitable and they are going to be forced to go that avenue even though it's going to be a climbdown for them.
Whenever they launch in China this game will be f2p at that point worldwide, they simply cannot develop 2 versions of the game (one f2p and one p2p) so that is the exact point it will happen I would bet.
This could actually break a record for fastest f2p transition, let's see if it lasts till the 11 month period to take the record.
Originally posted by Ramonski7 I enjoy playing FFXIV right now as it's my go to game to avoid the enticements of cash shop content. I pictured myself playing it for a long, long time. That being said, the minute they introduce items bought offline that effect the in-game (mounts, minions or appearance) world or offer a F2P option, I will drop this game faster than a nerf stick on OP classes.
Berserker warrior is still kinda OP in Gw2. That's year and a half for gw2 now. So are you implying that you will keep playing FFXIV for at least 1 more year after it goes F2P?
On topic, it's good that the game's producer is not a stuck up bitch choking his own game with "P2P OR NOTHING" crap like some people on this forum. MMOs require critical mass of people in the thousands in order for that MMO to just ... work right. If there is no influx of players I'm sorry but, that MMO is bound to die. I hope you finally start understanding this simple fact. Even WoW is only retaining subscriptions BECAUSE they have that critical mass. Once they drop you'll see WoW going F2P faster than light. So far they feel no pressure of doing so
Its ultimately the people in charge, not the suits, not the devs, not anyone. Its just we're not together. It seems large chunk of players just want to pay for subpar experience than playing better free games and nobody can change that. And the suits know this
Free to play is ok as long as you the guy who pays a sub gets everything that free to play guy gets. What i mean is a gear set for 3 euro - i should get it to as i pay a sub. No problems if mmo's go down the free to play road as it opens up alot more people to play your game.
I have a problem with pay to enjoy or pay to win stuff tough, when that trigger is pulled i vanish with the wind.
Originally posted by Homitu I really enjoyed the month and a half I played of FFXIV, but not enough for me to keep a sub after that second month expired. I'd definitely consider coming back in a casual capacity if it went f2p, but I doubt that'd be any time soon.
That's why F2P games are popular its that casual word you mentioned. People play them casually along with 5 other F2P games simultaneously.
Yup...key word is CASUAL.
Why we will probably not see any innovative gameplay until this genre is most likely in it's deathbed.
Remember what happened to the console way back when??? Thank god for Nintendo....
Or how about those arcades that were the rage a while back...
The video game crash was due to the overpopulation with not a whole lot of quality games and the near complete lack of reviews or gaming press lead to a logical drop in sales.
Arcades dropped in popularity because paying to play a game is vastly less desirable than a upfront fee for hardware and the game and playing it in the comfort of your own home (thank you for making the case for F2P games btw as they are to MMOs what consoles were to games back in the arcade hayday).
Try harder.
Also there have been casual games since the dawn of damn time so please stop blaming developer laziness coupled with publisher risk aversion on your fellow gamers.
Wait a gosh darn second there! You thank him for making the case for F2P games when both the points you are touching on resonate with sub based games. And I quote:
the overpopulation with not a whole lot of quality games and the near complete lack of reviews or gaming press lead to a logical drop in sales
This is exactly the situation F2P games are in now. Bloated with many low quality mmorpgs and a sales report that counts all F2P games as a whole instead of individual reports. I guess this is why SOE is shutting down: FreeRealms, Star Wars: Clone War Adventures, Vanguard and Wizardry Online? Read the reasons here
Arcades dropped in popularity because paying to play a game is vastly less desirable than a upfront fee
Another point that touches on the reason P2P mmos (upfront fee) beats out F2P mmos (nickel & dime). F2P mmos are like those old arcades. A slew of them buzzing, flashing and playing music in order to entice you to spend some coin. They're not looking for a long term commitment, just a few minutes hoping to get you to spend more. As for home consoles (like P2P mmos) you pay initially to get in and play. Then had the option to pay for an expansion (a new game) when it came out. Playing Pac-Man at home for $30 was sure a helluva lot cheaper than the amount I spent at the arcades playing it over the years.
So nope, arcades are F2P and consoles are like P2P. But slowly the nickel & dime mentality of the arcades is making it's way back into console gaming in the form of cash shops and DLC.
Color coded because you seem to need help:
Most of those F2P games are former WoW-clones or WoW pretenders that didn't make the cut, the true F2P (purpose built) titles are only just now starting to come out (FreeRealms was Freemium, donno what SW:CWA was, Vanguard is former P2P and Wizardry is just a shit game, kind of like P2P had its shit too like hmmm Vanguard, Tabula Rasa, etc).
As I said above F2P titles, actual ones, are only just now starting to come out and you are not talking about F2P vs P2P in that paragraph but F2P vs B2P which is another discussion entirely which hinges on the type of model the B2P game in question goes with (as there seem to be quite a few variations, the one most suited to your argument would be B2P with paid expansions).
Kindly learn the difference between F2P, P2W, B2P and P2P games as you seem to shoot yourself quite badly in the leg in saying P2W is worse than P2P when I was discussing F2P vs P2P (the difference between F2P and P2W is that one offers a choice, the other pretends to offer it but is just as greedy and archaic as the P2P model).
Well first of al lthe Retainer idea is just straight out LAME.I knew from the very first day that is why they wanted a Retainer system ,so the ycould sell additional ones ,the same way people bought added storage alts in FFXI.
IMO it is greed,if players need more space ,give it to them,quit with the nickle and dime stuff.
Also selling character models is again LAME,players should have full access to all changeable models without paying extra.
All is funny because not long ago they said if the game is not profiting they would probably shut it down before going f2p.So it tells me their investors are pushing for MORE profits and they see other games doing it so want in on the added profits.
Another thing that bothers me is they are always interacting with their home community but hardly over here.He was talking about how NA and JPN players see game ideals different.Personally i can't stand ANY of Wow's design but i know they wanted to copy ideals just again for the profits and not for the good of the game.
Biggest example in FFXIV is the large amount of soloing just like in WOW,FFXI was a game made for grouping and the true MMO feel,i don't really like Yoshida's direction to be like the status quo games.
Square Enix became maybe the most famous and biggest developer in the past because they were different,you just need to make sure that different is a good product.So go figure their new found philosophy is to be like Wow and other current games.I said it before,i feel Yoshida has a TON of passion,is a hard worker but he is not the guy to bring an old school FFXI type game back into the fray,expect more WOW type gaming.Just look at how all the major content is instances,the Bosses and players can't move outside the ring and in the game world aggro is lost way too easily just by moving out of the creatures AI zone.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Future is for hybrid models and not for pure P2P or F2P models. Yoshida is quite an intelligent guy and he sees that.
By making FFXIV hybrid they will only make more profit and not less.
Yeah I would expect a hybrid or extended trial for FFXIV, I don't think they will abandon the sub altogether.
No p2p > f2p game abandons the subscription, they just give you extra dungeon access or fast travel for your subscription while the game is still f2p. I can't think of a p2p mmo that went f2p without an optional subscription for extras.
To someone that said they hope they get everything f2p players get, there is no way they will give away skins and cosmetics for subs fee. One single cosmetic or a few lotto boxes are double the sub fee is alone, no way they will do that. Sub will be for little extras and cash shop will be optional extras.
The only problem with FFXIV f2p is that anyone with any experience of SE F2P knows they are not very cheap with their micro transactions. At least they have an audience that will be weak to these cosmetics, they will make a killing at $20-30 a piece outfits and hats.
I thought they would rather close the game than consider an F2P option?
You're completely misunderstanding the whole interview. YoshiP says F2P makes sense for games like World of Tanks and League of LEgends. It makes no sense for MMOs UNLESS you're doing it to save the game from closing down.
He said he would consider F2P options if the player base really really wanted it. So the big difference is, he's not going f2p to save a dying game... he's going F2P if there's a huge demand by teh current base in an otherwise SUCCESSFUL P2P game.
You're missing the part where anyone who said anything about F2P on these forums was told that Yoshi would rather close the game than go F2P.
Is giving some of the playerbase a F2P option rather going F2P for EVERYONE. That's a huge difference. It could be like WoW where it's F2P for only the first 20 levels.... or F2P that limits how much time you can play a week...
He did not say it would go Free to play for all purposes, but rather limited f2p options that are not game breaking... don't isolate sentences... read the entire interview.
lol...
And people are already attempting to spin this.
Simsalabim has the right of it. I've lost count of how many times people immediately argued "ARR will never become F2P because Yoshi-P said he'd rather shut the game down before that happens". It's been said to me, and to anyone else who even suggested that ARR could at some point make a change to a F2P model... usually with a few "you're a troll" or "go away" type remarks thrown in for good measure.
Yet, he says right in the interview, in his own words - no interpretation required - that to think F2P wouldn't be considered would be a mistake. That's about as unambiguous and direct as you can get. There's no other way to interpret it.
He also said, quite unambiguously, that selling items - a la Cash Shop - is something they'd like to do. Again, no other way to interpret that.
Trying to spin it, or twist it around to somehow mean "he actually meant something else" is just plain dishonest and deceitful. The man said what he said, and it's right there for all to read.
The point, however, is... All the people on these forums (and elsewhere, to be fair) were talking out of their ass when making that "he'd sooner shut it down" claim. It was pretty obvious to me they were full of it, as I never could find him actually saying that, and no one I challenged to provide a direct source for the remark could ever do so. However, this interview, he absolutely confirms it.
Yoshi-P, and SE are 100% open to a F2P model should they feel it appropriate, and they are already considering selling items. Period.
The problem with this game is that they had something in the concept that was lost in execution. I quit the game after I spent the 1st two months focused heavily on crafting and leveling my gathering and several of the trade skill classes. This took more work and time that what it took to level my primary combat class. In that time, I had argued that OM'd crafted gear was on par with top raid gear from Launch, but when they introduced the 2nd tier of raid gear levels, It was clear that crafting was a side game and not a primary focus to FF14. What a waste! It was a slap in the face to me who had planned on raiding in the gear I made.
I found it utterly mind boggling to think that Yoshi had abandoned the things that made FF14 different and set it apart in the genre to pursue the EXACT SAME THINGS that oh-so many had failed to do before. The primary story was good, however, in terms of mechanics, combat, playability, options, content and almost anything else short of graphics and art direction, WoW is a vastly superior game, We've already seen time and again that Graphics and Art Direction are not enough to unseat WoW.
And that's probably what SE is feeling right now. They aren't going to be able to compete in the market they are in with the game they have for the long run. So they have to change something. But with the number of solid F2P MMOs out there already established, Is FF14 really good enough to break in there too? Well, I suppose it is, and SE will do what they have to do, and players will do what they have to do.
But I still, have to wonder if the game wouldn't be more successful if it had focused more on what it is strong in and what sets it apart rather than trying to take on WoW where WoW is strongest.
Originally posted by Homitu I really enjoyed the month and a half I played of FFXIV, but not enough for me to keep a sub after that second month expired. I'd definitely consider coming back in a casual capacity if it went f2p, but I doubt that'd be any time soon.
That's why F2P games are popular its that casual word you mentioned. People play them casually along with 5 other F2P games simultaneously.
Yup...key word is CASUAL.
Why we will probably not see any innovative gameplay until this genre is most likely in it's deathbed.
Remember what happened to the console way back when??? Thank god for Nintendo....
Or how about those arcades that were the rage a while back...
So you're saying that Subscription-only models are like an arcade? If so, I totally agree! If not, I'm not sure which alternate universe you're living in, but how many sub games do they have there?
I love the analogy, and I think it applies perfectly, actually. Really, it boils down to accessibility and cost. I remember blowing $20 at a time in the arcade. However, consoles became cheaper, there was greater variety, and soon enough the quality surpassed what you could find in an arcade. So why go spend money at an arcade any more?
I don't see the subscription model dying, but I think it will almost always need to be paired with other monetization models in the future if any game hopes to succeed. The fact is that the quality in many F2P games surpasses that of the current P2P offering. The only thing that will stop it is a killer game, I'm talking brain-splatteringly mind-blowing! Unfortunately, nothing like that exists on the horizon. So we're talking at least 3 years? Maybe more, before there is even a possibility of anything like that being released. Probably more like 7 or 8. Even with that, why would someone spend millions (or hundreds of millions) on a game and intentionally limit that audience by maintaining a closed P2P approach? For a gaming audience that will likely be dead or converted by the time their game is released.
All is funny because not long ago they said if the game is not profiting they would probably shut it down before going f2p.So it tells me their investors are pushing for MORE profits and they see other games doing it so want in on the added profits.
Can you provide a link to where Yoshi-P, or anyone from SE, actually said that? I've yet to find it myself in all my searching, and no one I've seen claiming it was said has ever provided the link, either.
Frankly, I don't think it was ever said at all. At best, it's probably one of those things where they made a remark that some people took completely out of context, or just misunderstood. Or, they deliberately spun it to mean something it didn't (like some are already doing with his latest remarks in this thread). They started the claim that "Yoshi-P said if the game ever reached the point where F2P would be their only option, they would sooner shut it down", and it spread. And, as tends to happen, say something enough and people begin to believe it's true.
I don't believe the remark was ever made at all. I think it's pure fiction, and I've yet to see anyone come forth with a direct quote, from a valid source (an interview, an article, a Live Letter, a Letter From The Producer, etc), proving otherwise.
I had no doubt all along that they would go F2P if they felt it was better for the game (ie. their wallets). People, however, have Yoshi-P up on this pedestal of godliness where he can say or do nothing wrong. They will not see how so much of what he says is dictated and controlled by PR people, whom are always present - and whom he acknowledges many times - during his interviews. How many times has he said "I'm looking at the PR people, and they don't want me to answer that..." or whatever? Come on people. How much more obvious does it have to be?
Yoshi-P is being fed his lines. He's being told what not to say, what to say and how to say it. During interviews, he's nothing more than a mouthpiece for SE themselves.
Early on, when they first began their "win back the trust of the players" thing after 1.0's failure, they were incessant in assuring players that they would take our feedback seriously. Yoshi-P stated outright that if the players were demanding enough of a given feature or idea, and it was popular, that they would find a way to implement it. He said this. I remember reading it and thinking, "wow... well that could be a double-edged sword".
Yet, he demonstrated, time and again, that he was full of it.
In the BETA forums, there were some ideas/suggestions offered for things to bring into the game - options for people to participate in if they so chose. A few of those ideas received a *high* amount of favor... There was well over 3000 "likes" in the English forums alone, for non-FATE rare world spawns that people could go out and hunt, for fun, or perhaps for some rare item piece. They did it in 1.0, and it's still s common thing in many, many other MMOs - including those that Yoshi-P cites as his primary influences for ARR. It was indicated that the same idea received similar support in the JP and other forums as well. Yoshi-P's answer, when one was finally given? "No, that's not how I want people playing the game". Popular idea.. arguably one of the most popular ones presented in the Beta forums, and he shot it down. Not even "we'll consider it".
People argued for fishing to have some kind of mini-game aspect to it - even if it was an optional thing, not mandatory (as in, you could do the default fishing thing, but could also make more of a mini-game of it, if you wanted to). Yoshi-P's - frankly, ridiculous - answer? "No. Fishing will not be a mini-game. Fishing is supposed to be relaxing, and pressing buttons is stressful". Pressing buttons is stressful. He actually said that. You're playing a game where everything you do requires you to press a button. But, clearly, button pressing in fishing is just pushing it too far.
Yet, they went ahead and implemented things that didn't have nearly the support of those things. And those things were, ultimately, not very important to the game at all. Mostly convenience things.
As was stated above, I admire Yoshi-P. He's passionate, hard-working and unquestionably threw himself into this project. However, I have to agree that he is not "the god" so many want to portray, and protect him as being. You just have to get out of that "worship" mindset, and start looking at what he says and does objectively.
Games released prior to 2005 that still use the P2P business model:
Dark Age of Camelot 2001 A Tale in the Desert 2003 EVE Online 2003 (Has a cash shop) FFXI 2003 World of Warcraft 2004 (Has a cash shop) Vendetta Online 2004
Games released post 2005 that still use the P2P business model:
DarkFall 2009 (Asia sector has a cash shop) The Hammers End 2013 Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn 2013 (Will have a cash shop)
Games being released between tomorrow and 2016 that have announced their payment model that is not F2P:
The Elder Scrolls Online 2014 (Will have cash shop) WildStar 2014 (Will most likely have a cash shop: remember this is a game published by NCSOFT)
At the end of the day there are allot of stupid gamers who think $15 a month is an enormous amount of money when they spend more at one day at a movie.
It has (in almost every case) never been about the difficulty about obtaining said $15.00 but rather is it worth it to you to spend those $15.00 in X Y Z MMORPG.
Would you spend $15.00 a month if Guild Wars 2 were P2P?
or
In its current state using the B2P model, would you drop $15.00 a month (worth in gems) to support ArenaNet?
Think about that for a moment: difficulty versus worth of that $15.00
The problem with this game is that they had something in the concept that was lost in execution. I quit the game after I spent the 1st two months focused heavily on crafting and leveling my gathering and several of the trade skill classes. This took more work and time that what it took to level my primary combat class. In that time, I had argued that OM'd crafted gear was on par with top raid gear from Launch, but when they introduced the 2nd tier of raid gear levels, It was clear that crafting was a side game and not a primary focus to FF14. What a waste! It was a slap in the face to me who had planned on raiding in the gear I made.
I found it utterly mind boggling to think that Yoshi had abandoned the things that made FF14 different and set it apart in the genre to pursue the EXACT SAME THINGS that oh-so many had failed to do before. The primary story was good, however, in terms of mechanics, combat, playability, options, content and almost anything else short of graphics and art direction, WoW is a vastly superior game, We've already seen time and again that Graphics and Art Direction are not enough to unseat WoW.
And that's probably what SE is feeling right now. They aren't going to be able to compete in the market they are in with the game they have for the long run. So they have to change something. But with the number of solid F2P MMOs out there already established, Is FF14 really good enough to break in there too? Well, I suppose it is, and SE will do what they have to do, and players will do what they have to do.
But I still, have to wonder if the game wouldn't be more successful if it had focused more on what it is strong in and what sets it apart rather than trying to take on WoW where WoW is strongest.
Oh, I didn't know there was a problem with this game.
You'd do well to tell that to all the hundreds of thousands of customers who were oblivious to the "fact" so they can stop playing this "flawed" game that they were previously enjoying.
Of course for this crusade of yours to go on we must also become oblivious to the massive issues arising from doing what you are proposing.
It's like someone stating the problems of capitalism and then coming up with something 10x more flawed as the "solution". The underlying message being that there is a perfect system out there, a perfect design with no flaws. How realistic of you.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
The problem with this game is that they had something in the concept that was lost in execution. I quit the game after I spent the 1st two months focused heavily on crafting and leveling my gathering and several of the trade skill classes. This took more work and time that what it took to level my primary combat class. In that time, I had argued that OM'd crafted gear was on par with top raid gear from Launch, but when they introduced the 2nd tier of raid gear levels, It was clear that crafting was a side game and not a primary focus to FF14. What a waste! It was a slap in the face to me who had planned on raiding in the gear I made.
I found it utterly mind boggling to think that Yoshi had abandoned the things that made FF14 different and set it apart in the genre to pursue the EXACT SAME THINGS that oh-so many had failed to do before. The primary story was good, however, in terms of mechanics, combat, playability, options, content and almost anything else short of graphics and art direction, WoW is a vastly superior game, We've already seen time and again that Graphics and Art Direction are not enough to unseat WoW.
And that's probably what SE is feeling right now. They aren't going to be able to compete in the market they are in with the game they have for the long run. So they have to change something. But with the number of solid F2P MMOs out there already established, Is FF14 really good enough to break in there too? Well, I suppose it is, and SE will do what they have to do, and players will do what they have to do.
But I still, have to wonder if the game wouldn't be more successful if it had focused more on what it is strong in and what sets it apart rather than trying to take on WoW where WoW is strongest.
Oh, I didn't know there was a problem with this game.
You'd do well to tell that to all the hundreds of thousands of customers who were oblivious to the "fact" so they can stop playing this "flawed" game that they were previously enjoying.
Of course for this crusade of yours to go on we must also become oblivious to the massive issues arising from doing what you are proposing.
It's like someone stating the problems of capitalism and then coming up with something 10x more flawed as the "solution". The underlying message being that there is a perfect system out there, a perfect design with no flaws. How realistic of you.
Games released prior to 2005 that still use the P2P business model:
Dark Age of Camelot 2001 A Tale in the Desert 2003 EVE Online 2003 (Has a cash shop) FFXI 2003 World of Warcraft 2004 (Has a cash shop) Vendetta Online 2004
Games released post 2005 that still use the P2P business model:
DarkFall 2009 (Asia sector has a cash shop) The Hammers End 2013 Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn 2013 (Will have a cash shop)
Games being released between tomorrow and 2016 that have announced their payment model that is not F2P:
The Elder Scrolls Online 2014 (Will have cash shop) WildStar 2014 (Will most likely have a cash shop: remember this is a game published by NCSOFT)
FFXI lets you buy character slots, doesn't that count?
For those who don't want micro transactions in their subscription games, then you have DAOC, ATITD, Vendetta and Hammers End. Hardly a great list of titles to choose from.
Times change, this particular change, I think, is unavoidable. If you want to play an MMO, you're most likely to going to have to play a game with a cash shop of some description, whether it is subscription, free or buy to play.
I would probably play again for a bit if it was f2p. However I don't see it happening in the near future.
The Japanese are pretty traditional and although he says he doesn't see f2p as something bad .... well you know.
Additionally FFXI is still going kind of strong I believe? If 14 went f2p it would have an influence on 11.
He is talking North America with F2P.
From what my friends tell me (they play a lot of MMOs in Japan), the Japanese mostly hate MMOs that are heavy cash shop based. One of the biggest so called game "Controversies" last year was when they found out that the newest monster hunter game had a cash shop and that series is massive over there. I actually recall a few tweets from one of my favorite Japanese guitarists, it was a rant about how the company is "nickel and diming" (yes she actually used the English reference) and it was around 6 months after she promoted the games announcement in a gaming tournament of previous version.
So no, I don't see them doing F2P in Japan. Even Archeage is keeping the sub in Japan and Dragons Prophet has one there also.
I wish these games would just start out as B2P instead of talking about how they believe in the subscription payment model and then pretending it doesn't matter afterwards. And even though I am a absolute B2P/F2P player, I still think that it is a sign of failure to change it up a year later. It's a failure to have the integrity to represent all the intentions from the outset.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
Originally posted by eyelolled I wish these games would just start out as B2P instead of talking about how they believe in the subscription payment model and then pretending it doesn't matter afterwards. And even though I am a absolute B2P/F2P player, I still think that it is a sign of failure to change it up a year later. It's a failure to have the integrity to represent all the intentions from the outset.
Its called being overconfident about your product. Maybe SE was under impression and firmly believed that FFXIV 2.0 would be an enormous success and since that didn't happen and they saw how all other MMOS are doing great business with hybrid models reality finally struck them and opened their eyes.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.' -Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid." -Luke McKinney
Comments
The game has been changed greatly, it's not 2.0 anymore.
Moreover, 3.0 is on the making, F2P is in your dreams lads..
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/408120
That is some weird logic there. What has innovation got anything to do with casual and hardcore play styles?
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney
Yeah I just let my sub lapse this month in preps for ESO but if the game goes F2P I likely won't go back.
I don't like F2P games and I think the F2P communities with the exception of Rift and GW2, are pretty awful. I hope they don't go the way of the greed train and instead just settle in on a nice number of subs and keep developing for those people that continue to sub like FFXI did.
No bitchers.
Did anyone really not see f2p coming? The game didn't have fantastic numbers at peak, they have been padding numbers desperately for many months now. Every interview he gives he is flanked by PR where he has to look to them to ask if he can answer questions related to player numbers.
The game will probably go free to play fairly soon from reading that because he knows the reaction fanboys will have so there is no way he would be saying this unless it was coming very soon, I'll still never play it again personally but it's still funny that the fanboys that thought this game was somehow better than all the rest can finally now see the light in that it's just the same as all the others (even though they will sell it as a good thing like Ziz is doing). I applaud them for hiding behind smoke and mirrors as long as they have but they can't lie to the people in charge and they have obviously made the decision to change payment model, no way he would be talking this way otherwise. The truth is he always did say that if the game went below a certain number he would be forced to change to something else, that time has obviously already come.
This isn't because "players want it" this is because too many players have left and they are getting close to critical failure numbers (and no I don't buy the 500k login numbers at all), I understand spin but most people aren't fooled by it unless they want to be. To put it simply this game cost way too much money over the 9 years it took to create to be profitable on the small playerbase they have, free to play with micro transactions is the only hope this game has to be profitable and they are going to be forced to go that avenue even though it's going to be a climbdown for them.
Whenever they launch in China this game will be f2p at that point worldwide, they simply cannot develop 2 versions of the game (one f2p and one p2p) so that is the exact point it will happen I would bet.
This could actually break a record for fastest f2p transition, let's see if it lasts till the 11 month period to take the record.
Berserker warrior is still kinda OP in Gw2. That's year and a half for gw2 now. So are you implying that you will keep playing FFXIV for at least 1 more year after it goes F2P?
On topic, it's good that the game's producer is not a stuck up bitch choking his own game with "P2P OR NOTHING" crap like some people on this forum. MMOs require critical mass of people in the thousands in order for that MMO to just ... work right. If there is no influx of players I'm sorry but, that MMO is bound to die. I hope you finally start understanding this simple fact. Even WoW is only retaining subscriptions BECAUSE they have that critical mass. Once they drop you'll see WoW going F2P faster than light. So far they feel no pressure of doing so
Its ultimately the people in charge, not the suits, not the devs, not anyone. Its just we're not together. It seems large chunk of players just want to pay for subpar experience than playing better free games and nobody can change that. And the suits know this
Free to play is ok as long as you the guy who pays a sub gets everything that free to play guy gets.
What i mean is a gear set for 3 euro - i should get it to as i pay a sub.
No problems if mmo's go down the free to play road as it opens up alot more people to play your game.
I have a problem with pay to enjoy or pay to win stuff tough, when that trigger is pulled i vanish with the wind.
Color coded because you seem to need help:
Most of those F2P games are former WoW-clones or WoW pretenders that didn't make the cut, the true F2P (purpose built) titles are only just now starting to come out (FreeRealms was Freemium, donno what SW:CWA was, Vanguard is former P2P and Wizardry is just a shit game, kind of like P2P had its shit too like hmmm Vanguard, Tabula Rasa, etc).
As I said above F2P titles, actual ones, are only just now starting to come out and you are not talking about F2P vs P2P in that paragraph but F2P vs B2P which is another discussion entirely which hinges on the type of model the B2P game in question goes with (as there seem to be quite a few variations, the one most suited to your argument would be B2P with paid expansions).
Kindly learn the difference between F2P, P2W, B2P and P2P games as you seem to shoot yourself quite badly in the leg in saying P2W is worse than P2P when I was discussing F2P vs P2P (the difference between F2P and P2W is that one offers a choice, the other pretends to offer it but is just as greedy and archaic as the P2P model).
So.. what subscription only MMOs are there left at this point besides FFXIV?
I can't actually think of any off the top of my head.
Well first of al lthe Retainer idea is just straight out LAME.I knew from the very first day that is why they wanted a Retainer system ,so the ycould sell additional ones ,the same way people bought added storage alts in FFXI.
IMO it is greed,if players need more space ,give it to them,quit with the nickle and dime stuff.
Also selling character models is again LAME,players should have full access to all changeable models without paying extra.
All is funny because not long ago they said if the game is not profiting they would probably shut it down before going f2p.So it tells me their investors are pushing for MORE profits and they see other games doing it so want in on the added profits.
Another thing that bothers me is they are always interacting with their home community but hardly over here.He was talking about how NA and JPN players see game ideals different.Personally i can't stand ANY of Wow's design but i know they wanted to copy ideals just again for the profits and not for the good of the game.
Biggest example in FFXIV is the large amount of soloing just like in WOW,FFXI was a game made for grouping and the true MMO feel,i don't really like Yoshida's direction to be like the status quo games.
Square Enix became maybe the most famous and biggest developer in the past because they were different,you just need to make sure that different is a good product.So go figure their new found philosophy is to be like Wow and other current games.I said it before,i feel Yoshida has a TON of passion,is a hard worker but he is not the guy to bring an old school FFXI type game back into the fray,expect more WOW type gaming.Just look at how all the major content is instances,the Bosses and players can't move outside the ring and in the game world aggro is lost way too easily just by moving out of the creatures AI zone.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Yeah I would expect a hybrid or extended trial for FFXIV, I don't think they will abandon the sub altogether.
So either a bait and switch or a honey trap... those will work for a year, two tops and they'll be back here again.
No p2p > f2p game abandons the subscription, they just give you extra dungeon access or fast travel for your subscription while the game is still f2p. I can't think of a p2p mmo that went f2p without an optional subscription for extras.
To someone that said they hope they get everything f2p players get, there is no way they will give away skins and cosmetics for subs fee. One single cosmetic or a few lotto boxes are double the sub fee is alone, no way they will do that. Sub will be for little extras and cash shop will be optional extras.
The only problem with FFXIV f2p is that anyone with any experience of SE F2P knows they are not very cheap with their micro transactions. At least they have an audience that will be weak to these cosmetics, they will make a killing at $20-30 a piece outfits and hats.
2 words:
MYTH BUSTED
Ahhh, its not like only select group believed in it.
It even seems they are considering cash shop ALONG subscription
hi hi hi
Reminds me of a few more popular ones:
"SE would rather kill a game than made it F2P"
"just look at FFXI its still sub game"
"SE is private company so it will support P2P game even if its losing money" (yeah like private companies dont have investors lol)
May add a few more.
But...its business bros, when things start to go south all promises, deals (or myths like in this case) go down.
lol...
And people are already attempting to spin this.
Simsalabim has the right of it. I've lost count of how many times people immediately argued "ARR will never become F2P because Yoshi-P said he'd rather shut the game down before that happens". It's been said to me, and to anyone else who even suggested that ARR could at some point make a change to a F2P model... usually with a few "you're a troll" or "go away" type remarks thrown in for good measure.
Yet, he says right in the interview, in his own words - no interpretation required - that to think F2P wouldn't be considered would be a mistake. That's about as unambiguous and direct as you can get. There's no other way to interpret it.
He also said, quite unambiguously, that selling items - a la Cash Shop - is something they'd like to do. Again, no other way to interpret that.
Trying to spin it, or twist it around to somehow mean "he actually meant something else" is just plain dishonest and deceitful. The man said what he said, and it's right there for all to read.
The point, however, is... All the people on these forums (and elsewhere, to be fair) were talking out of their ass when making that "he'd sooner shut it down" claim. It was pretty obvious to me they were full of it, as I never could find him actually saying that, and no one I challenged to provide a direct source for the remark could ever do so. However, this interview, he absolutely confirms it.
Yoshi-P, and SE are 100% open to a F2P model should they feel it appropriate, and they are already considering selling items. Period.
The problem with this game is that they had something in the concept that was lost in execution. I quit the game after I spent the 1st two months focused heavily on crafting and leveling my gathering and several of the trade skill classes. This took more work and time that what it took to level my primary combat class. In that time, I had argued that OM'd crafted gear was on par with top raid gear from Launch, but when they introduced the 2nd tier of raid gear levels, It was clear that crafting was a side game and not a primary focus to FF14. What a waste! It was a slap in the face to me who had planned on raiding in the gear I made.
I found it utterly mind boggling to think that Yoshi had abandoned the things that made FF14 different and set it apart in the genre to pursue the EXACT SAME THINGS that oh-so many had failed to do before. The primary story was good, however, in terms of mechanics, combat, playability, options, content and almost anything else short of graphics and art direction, WoW is a vastly superior game, We've already seen time and again that Graphics and Art Direction are not enough to unseat WoW.
And that's probably what SE is feeling right now. They aren't going to be able to compete in the market they are in with the game they have for the long run. So they have to change something. But with the number of solid F2P MMOs out there already established, Is FF14 really good enough to break in there too? Well, I suppose it is, and SE will do what they have to do, and players will do what they have to do.
But I still, have to wonder if the game wouldn't be more successful if it had focused more on what it is strong in and what sets it apart rather than trying to take on WoW where WoW is strongest.
So you're saying that Subscription-only models are like an arcade? If so, I totally agree! If not, I'm not sure which alternate universe you're living in, but how many sub games do they have there?
I love the analogy, and I think it applies perfectly, actually. Really, it boils down to accessibility and cost. I remember blowing $20 at a time in the arcade. However, consoles became cheaper, there was greater variety, and soon enough the quality surpassed what you could find in an arcade. So why go spend money at an arcade any more?
I don't see the subscription model dying, but I think it will almost always need to be paired with other monetization models in the future if any game hopes to succeed. The fact is that the quality in many F2P games surpasses that of the current P2P offering. The only thing that will stop it is a killer game, I'm talking brain-splatteringly mind-blowing! Unfortunately, nothing like that exists on the horizon. So we're talking at least 3 years? Maybe more, before there is even a possibility of anything like that being released. Probably more like 7 or 8. Even with that, why would someone spend millions (or hundreds of millions) on a game and intentionally limit that audience by maintaining a closed P2P approach? For a gaming audience that will likely be dead or converted by the time their game is released.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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Can you provide a link to where Yoshi-P, or anyone from SE, actually said that? I've yet to find it myself in all my searching, and no one I've seen claiming it was said has ever provided the link, either.
Frankly, I don't think it was ever said at all. At best, it's probably one of those things where they made a remark that some people took completely out of context, or just misunderstood. Or, they deliberately spun it to mean something it didn't (like some are already doing with his latest remarks in this thread). They started the claim that "Yoshi-P said if the game ever reached the point where F2P would be their only option, they would sooner shut it down", and it spread. And, as tends to happen, say something enough and people begin to believe it's true.
I don't believe the remark was ever made at all. I think it's pure fiction, and I've yet to see anyone come forth with a direct quote, from a valid source (an interview, an article, a Live Letter, a Letter From The Producer, etc), proving otherwise.
I had no doubt all along that they would go F2P if they felt it was better for the game (ie. their wallets). People, however, have Yoshi-P up on this pedestal of godliness where he can say or do nothing wrong. They will not see how so much of what he says is dictated and controlled by PR people, whom are always present - and whom he acknowledges many times - during his interviews. How many times has he said "I'm looking at the PR people, and they don't want me to answer that..." or whatever? Come on people. How much more obvious does it have to be?
Yoshi-P is being fed his lines. He's being told what not to say, what to say and how to say it. During interviews, he's nothing more than a mouthpiece for SE themselves.
Early on, when they first began their "win back the trust of the players" thing after 1.0's failure, they were incessant in assuring players that they would take our feedback seriously. Yoshi-P stated outright that if the players were demanding enough of a given feature or idea, and it was popular, that they would find a way to implement it. He said this. I remember reading it and thinking, "wow... well that could be a double-edged sword".
Yet, he demonstrated, time and again, that he was full of it.
In the BETA forums, there were some ideas/suggestions offered for things to bring into the game - options for people to participate in if they so chose. A few of those ideas received a *high* amount of favor... There was well over 3000 "likes" in the English forums alone, for non-FATE rare world spawns that people could go out and hunt, for fun, or perhaps for some rare item piece. They did it in 1.0, and it's still s common thing in many, many other MMOs - including those that Yoshi-P cites as his primary influences for ARR. It was indicated that the same idea received similar support in the JP and other forums as well. Yoshi-P's answer, when one was finally given? "No, that's not how I want people playing the game". Popular idea.. arguably one of the most popular ones presented in the Beta forums, and he shot it down. Not even "we'll consider it".
People argued for fishing to have some kind of mini-game aspect to it - even if it was an optional thing, not mandatory (as in, you could do the default fishing thing, but could also make more of a mini-game of it, if you wanted to). Yoshi-P's - frankly, ridiculous - answer? "No. Fishing will not be a mini-game. Fishing is supposed to be relaxing, and pressing buttons is stressful". Pressing buttons is stressful. He actually said that. You're playing a game where everything you do requires you to press a button. But, clearly, button pressing in fishing is just pushing it too far.
Yet, they went ahead and implemented things that didn't have nearly the support of those things. And those things were, ultimately, not very important to the game at all. Mostly convenience things.
As was stated above, I admire Yoshi-P. He's passionate, hard-working and unquestionably threw himself into this project. However, I have to agree that he is not "the god" so many want to portray, and protect him as being. You just have to get out of that "worship" mindset, and start looking at what he says and does objectively.
As it currently stands from:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/394763/page/2
These are the remaining exclusive P2P MMORPGs:
Games released prior to 2005 that still use the P2P business model:
Dark Age of Camelot 2001
A Tale in the Desert 2003
EVE Online 2003 (Has a cash shop)
FFXI 2003
World of Warcraft 2004 (Has a cash shop)
Vendetta Online 2004
Games released post 2005 that still use the P2P business model:
DarkFall 2009 (Asia sector has a cash shop)
The Hammers End 2013
Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn 2013 (Will have a cash shop)
Games being released between tomorrow and 2016 that have announced their payment model that is not F2P:
The Elder Scrolls Online 2014 (Will have cash shop)
WildStar 2014 (Will most likely have a cash shop: remember this is a game published by NCSOFT)
It has (in almost every case) never been about the difficulty about obtaining said $15.00 but rather is it worth it to you to spend those $15.00 in X Y Z MMORPG.
Would you spend $15.00 a month if Guild Wars 2 were P2P?
or
In its current state using the B2P model, would you drop $15.00 a month (worth in gems) to support ArenaNet?
Think about that for a moment: difficulty versus worth of that $15.00
Oh, I didn't know there was a problem with this game.
You'd do well to tell that to all the hundreds of thousands of customers who were oblivious to the "fact" so they can stop playing this "flawed" game that they were previously enjoying.
Of course for this crusade of yours to go on we must also become oblivious to the massive issues arising from doing what you are proposing.
It's like someone stating the problems of capitalism and then coming up with something 10x more flawed as the "solution". The underlying message being that there is a perfect system out there, a perfect design with no flaws. How realistic of you.
Wow! lol!
FFXI lets you buy character slots, doesn't that count?
For those who don't want micro transactions in their subscription games, then you have DAOC, ATITD, Vendetta and Hammers End. Hardly a great list of titles to choose from.
Times change, this particular change, I think, is unavoidable. If you want to play an MMO, you're most likely to going to have to play a game with a cash shop of some description, whether it is subscription, free or buy to play.
He is talking North America with F2P.
From what my friends tell me (they play a lot of MMOs in Japan), the Japanese mostly hate MMOs that are heavy cash shop based. One of the biggest so called game "Controversies" last year was when they found out that the newest monster hunter game had a cash shop and that series is massive over there. I actually recall a few tweets from one of my favorite Japanese guitarists, it was a rant about how the company is "nickel and diming" (yes she actually used the English reference) and it was around 6 months after she promoted the games announcement in a gaming tournament of previous version.
So no, I don't see them doing F2P in Japan. Even Archeage is keeping the sub in Japan and Dragons Prophet has one there also.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.
Its called being overconfident about your product. Maybe SE was under impression and firmly believed that FFXIV 2.0 would be an enormous success and since that didn't happen and they saw how all other MMOS are doing great business with hybrid models reality finally struck them and opened their eyes.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney