Originally posted by Giffen Since everyone can be a healer by just using a restoration staff...no there won't be a lack of healers.
how good of a healer can those people be? a melee with heavy or medium armor and the passives with no points in magicka will not be as good of a healer as a spell caster with points in magicka and at least some light armor passives.
at least not IMO. maybe they can still heal good enough for most the content? that i don't know.
All class skills use magicka, so you can put a lot of points in magicka and use both DPS class skills and healing skills with the staff or Templar skill line.
I plan on using 5 heavy and 2 light with my Templar. I should be able to get plenty of magicka with the passives from the staff if I use it as well as some from the light passives. I just have to decide if I want to go full healer or a mix. Will have to see how it goes.
you will gimp yourself regen wise if you choose to go that high in heavy. it's a known fact that they heavily nerfed mana regen and one of the main factors was heavy armor. i've seen people spout off about how magicka regen is easy to 'soft' cap but after playing at lvl 50 vet 2 I can say that 5 in heavy if you actually plan to heal is a subpar choice.
Originally posted by Giffen Since everyone can be a healer by just using a restoration staff...no there won't be a lack of healers.
Just because people can, doesn't mean they will. In RIFT, for instance, all a mage had to do to be a healer was switch their spec (literally didn't even need to switch gear for the most part), yet there were plenty of mages who I would see sit in dungeon queues for an hour because they weren't willing to heal, which would have got them into a group in five minutes or less most of the time.
That has nothing to do with any specific game - it's one of the universal reasons why people who could heal a group won't: because they don't want the extra drama of the post-wipe blame game that 99% of the time targets the healer or tank.
I know people who will gladly heal a guild pre-made that would never heal a PUG for that very reason.
In the beta weekends I got tired of telling people in PUGs that they had to block the boss' heavy attacks or move out of the bad shit they were standing in. After a while you just have to say "F*** it, find another healer."
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Originally posted by -Zeno- Knowing how the old Elder Scrolls games are all solo I have a feeling there will be a serious lack of healers. Especially since 50% of the playerbase may be new to the MMO scene. This spells disaster for any PUG groups and will make even the worst organized guilds shine. Please prove me wrong.
I will be playing a Templar . and the goal is to make a pure healer . With the base healing they get plus the healing you get with the staff . Full blown healer . there ya go .
Why do you guys hate healers so much? By which I mean, there are SO many different and unique ways to build a dps character, less so for a tank (but still a fair number of options)...but for healers we get pidgeon-holed into Templar's restoring light tree and/or restoration staff weapon.
I think you have a very reasonable concern about the depth of healing builds versus dps builds. We are currently building several new skills for release in future patches, and while I can't confirm the specifics, many new healing and support spells will be included. (We do love healers, I swear!)
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I noticed a major lack of healers in rvr during sieges, but that could have been a beta issue. Still I found it quite surprising, given the fact that it was super fast to complete the 20 kill quest when I used HoTs from resto staff.
Depending on how my rvr campaign looks I may just make one alt a full support character to help out during sieges.
I think there are more healers than there are tanks. Healers are viable in both PvE and PvP, but without a guard mechanic, or collision detection, I think tanks tend to lose a couple of "points" for players in PvP. This is not to say that they can't be fun or enjoyable, but they do miss some of the niche skills that make them fun in other games.
Originally posted by Giffen Since everyone can be a healer by just using a restoration staff...no there won't be a lack of healers.
how good of a healer can those people be? a melee with heavy or medium armor and the passives with no points in magicka will not be as good of a healer as a spell caster with points in magicka and at least some light armor passives.
Well, you can't just pick up a resto staff and heal. You need to put points into the abilities it provides. And i figure anyone that does that, will likely also grab some light armor to stick on for the situations when they switch to healing.
Plus, just because someone is DPS doesn't mean that they have no magicka. For example, all of the NB damage abilities use magicka, so if i was switchting from NB DPS to NB + resto for heals, my setup would already have some magicka built-in.
Will that be as good as someone who is as good as a 100% dedicated healer build? Probably not. But good enough for some stuff - i expect so.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
Originally posted by Fendel84M I think we will see a lot of secondary healers which will be enough to sustain. I don't think the game is designed for your traditional tank and spank with someone just standing there healing. I could be wrong though but that would seem so against the spirit of the skill system.
Why would that be against the spirit of the skill system?
@OP, I am pretty sure it will be fine. The whole LF tank/healer thing got totally blown out of proportion with all the GW2 mumbo jumbo. ArenaNet just wanted to brainwash people that the best way to do it is to remove roles so that parties don't have to wait for a healer/tank. I never have experienced this problem to the extent that GW2 fans/ArenaNet seem to describe it. And man every time I hear holy trinity, I feel like I am about to puke. I mean holy CRAP! This stupid phrase was almost never used before GW2.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Originally posted by Giffen Since everyone can be a healer by just using a restoration staff...no there won't be a lack of healers.
how good of a healer can those people be? a melee with heavy or medium armor and the passives with no points in magicka will not be as good of a healer as a spell caster with points in magicka and at least some light armor passives.
at least not IMO. maybe they can still heal good enough for most the content? that i don't know.
All class skills use magicka, so you can put a lot of points in magicka and use both DPS class skills and healing skills with the staff or Templar skill line.
I plan on using 5 heavy and 2 light with my Templar. I should be able to get plenty of magicka with the passives from the staff if I use it as well as some from the light passives. I just have to decide if I want to go full healer or a mix. Will have to see how it goes.
you will gimp yourself regen wise if you choose to go that high in heavy. it's a known fact that they heavily nerfed mana regen and one of the main factors was heavy armor. i've seen people spout off about how magicka regen is easy to 'soft' cap but after playing at lvl 50 vet 2 I can say that 5 in heavy if you actually plan to heal is a subpar choice.
That much heavy armor will also make the healer an agro magnet. Heavy armor magnifies the hate generated and given how weak the taunts are, the tank will struggle if the healer is also primarily in heavy armor.
Holy trinity was very much discussed before GW2 it's been a very real problem since wow. A very rigid dps/healer/tank system tends to lead to one or two being desired more than the other/s.
I don't think GW2 got it right but a more flexible system would be nice. I feel like ESO is going to be a little more about dynamic builds. I just can't see someone standing there doing nothing but healing.
Why do you guys hate healers so much? By which I mean, there are SO many different and unique ways to build a dps character, less so for a tank (but still a fair number of options)...but for healers we get pidgeon-holed into Templar's restoring light tree and/or restoration staff weapon.
I think you have a very reasonable concern about the depth of healing builds versus dps builds. We are currently building several new skills for release in future patches, and while I can't confirm the specifics, many new healing and support spells will be included. (We do love healers, I swear!)
When i read stuff like this i feel that game is releasing too soon.
Why do you guys hate healers so much? By which I mean, there are SO many different and unique ways to build a dps character, less so for a tank (but still a fair number of options)...but for healers we get pidgeon-holed into Templar's restoring light tree and/or restoration staff weapon.
I think you have a very reasonable concern about the depth of healing builds versus dps builds. We are currently building several new skills for release in future patches, and while I can't confirm the specifics, many new healing and support spells will be included. (We do love healers, I swear!)
When i read stuff like this i feel that game is releasing too soon.
Is this your first MMO? Patches and additions are a way of life in the MMO genre.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I played a couple of the Betas. Rolled a Healer. Discovered that Tanks were more in demand, and since normally I prefer Tanking, I rolled an Orc Tank.
Discovered that Tanking takes more skill points dedicated to it. Heavy Armor, AoEs, One handed and Shield, and other damage mitigation points. It also requires knowing the fights; which at level 15 is meh. Who wants to study a dungeon boss they won't ever see again?
Meanwhile DPS is DPS.
While Tanking, if the Heals and DPS were awesome, I looked like the worlds greatest tank; when my heals were "I haz restro staff", and the DPS was just ok, well we wiped on trash.
Same place, better DPS, playing my healer, OMG this is easy. One fight I lost the tank, my own bad, I wasted power healing a dps.
So from difficulty vs reward, and to avoid the risk of getting cussed at by bad players, people will play DPS. Good news though, it looks like at higher levels skill points will be plentiful enough that people will have the right talents, it will just be about having the right gear; and enough practice with those 5+5 skills on the bar to know how to fill the roll.
Why do you guys hate healers so much? By which I mean, there are SO many different and unique ways to build a dps character, less so for a tank (but still a fair number of options)...but for healers we get pidgeon-holed into Templar's restoring light tree and/or restoration staff weapon.
I think you have a very reasonable concern about the depth of healing builds versus dps builds. We are currently building several new skills for release in future patches, and while I can't confirm the specifics, many new healing and support spells will be included. (We do love healers, I swear!)
When i read stuff like this i feel that game is releasing too soon.
Is this your first MMO? Patches and additions are a way of life in the MMO genre.
Releasing classes with half of the skills and even acknowledging that and promising to add more skills in future isn't your normal patches and additions in life of MMO genre.
Originally posted by Bigdaddyx Releasing classes with half of the skills and even acknowledging that and promising to add more skills in future isn't your normal patches and additions in life of MMO genre.
Where are you drawing the conclusion that they are releasing classes with half of the skills? I mean, that's not even close to what was said.
What he said is fairly close to typical MMO, where skills are added or changed based on feedback post release. Here they actually have an idea that they need to do that already, not exactly shocking news.
Originally posted by Bigdaddyx Releasing classes with half of the skills and even acknowledging that and promising to add more skills in future isn't your normal patches and additions in life of MMO genre.
Where are you drawing the conclusion that they are releasing classes with half of the skills? I mean, that's not even close to what was said.
What he said is fairly close to typical MMO, where skills are added or changed based on feedback post release. Here they actually have an idea that they need to do that already, not exactly shocking news.
Releasing with half skills huh?
LOL
When one is blinded by hate they never need facts ....those that defend must use facts those that hate grasp at straws
Lack of healers/tanks isn't a matter of who can play the role, it's who is willing to, and as long as healing and tanking come with more responsibility, more difficulty, and, most of all, more blame (much of it, frankly, unfair), there will be a much smaller percentage of people willing to take on those roles when they could instead hit DPS cruise control.
Rift tried the whole "Everyone can heal or tank (or, in the case of clerics, heal and tank... sorta), worked out same as ever. You get a lot of tanks and a gigaton of healers early on -- don't for a second think mostly low level beta play is going to be representative of the game in general -- but as reality sets in the bulk of those people turn to DPSing and you get the usual mix of shortages and the issues and egos on both sides that go with it.
Why do you guys hate healers so much? By which I mean, there are SO many different and unique ways to build a dps character, less so for a tank (but still a fair number of options)...but for healers we get pidgeon-holed into Templar's restoring light tree and/or restoration staff weapon.
I think you have a very reasonable concern about the depth of healing builds versus dps builds. We are currently building several new skills for release in future patches, and while I can't confirm the specifics, many new healing and support spells will be included. (We do love healers, I swear!)
When i read stuff like this i feel that game is releasing too soon.
Is this your first MMO? Patches and additions are a way of life in the MMO genre.
Releasing classes with half of the skills and even acknowledging that and promising to add more skills in future isn't your normal patches and additions in life of MMO genre.
What he said had nothing to do with classes, this is about overall types of skills available (key word here "builds"). Not a class having been overlooked. There really isn't what I would consider a completely healing focused class. Classes are open to a number of builds. It's just a dev answering a question seemingly honestly, regardless of those who would twist his words. He's saying "yes there are more DPS related skill builds". Besides...Isn't that always the case in every game?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by Bigdaddyx Releasing classes with half of the skills and even acknowledging that and promising to add more skills in future isn't your normal patches and additions in life of MMO genre.
Where are you drawing the conclusion that they are releasing classes with half of the skills? I mean, that's not even close to what was said.
What he said is fairly close to typical MMO, where skills are added or changed based on feedback post release. Here they actually have an idea that they need to do that already, not exactly shocking news.
Releasing with half skills huh?
LOL
I drived my conclusion from playing healer builds. Compared to DPS ..healing classes seem unfinished. It is quite obvious from what was said...
We are currently building several new skills for release in future patches, and while I can't confirm the specifics, many new healing and support spells will be included
He doesn't need to acknowledge that 'healing class skills are unfinished'. But if you want us to believe that this is the usual thing that happens at every MMO release than sure. There is difference between adding new extra skills one or two years down the lane and adding much needed new skills or spells just after release. Usually it is just balancing of skills and spells that takes place on basis of player feedback.
And the manner in which question was asked it is quite clear that players aren't going to wait for couple of years to get new spells / skills for healing.
I think there will be lack of healers and tanks if the game doesnot allow during the lvl 50+ dungeons for a viable group setup with off tank playing as main tank in the group or off healers playing as main healers in a group. This is not down to players choosing a particular play style but due to the 4 man groups instead of traditional 5 man groups. To satisfy all players wanting to group for a dungeon traditionally 20% of the player base needed to be healers and 20% needed to be tanks. So if therefore in any game the player base was short of this % there was lack of the particular role in dungeons. But in ESO they have increased this % from 20 to 25 now. SO even a bigger player base needs to play healer or tank than they did in other MMO's.
There fore to compensate for this additional requirement of 5% off healers and off tanks playing this role viably will be important for regular groups to run dungeons without having long queue times looking to fill this class.
I have hence decided to play main as Orc templar tank (heavy armor + Sword + shield) and off spec as healer (resto staff + heavy armor + light armor). This is so i can play Tank if a group is short of a healer or as a healer if the group is short of a tank.
Comments
you will gimp yourself regen wise if you choose to go that high in heavy. it's a known fact that they heavily nerfed mana regen and one of the main factors was heavy armor. i've seen people spout off about how magicka regen is easy to 'soft' cap but after playing at lvl 50 vet 2 I can say that 5 in heavy if you actually plan to heal is a subpar choice.
That has nothing to do with any specific game - it's one of the universal reasons why people who could heal a group won't: because they don't want the extra drama of the post-wipe blame game that 99% of the time targets the healer or tank.
I know people who will gladly heal a guild pre-made that would never heal a PUG for that very reason.
In the beta weekends I got tired of telling people in PUGs that they had to block the boss' heavy attacks or move out of the bad shit they were standing in. After a while you just have to say "F*** it, find another healer."
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I will be playing a Templar . and the goal is to make a pure healer . With the base healing they get plus the healing you get with the staff . Full blown healer . there ya go .
Yeah, they just can't get away from the outdated "Trinity" spiel.
From Nick Konkel on reddit a few minutes ago:
Why do you guys hate healers so much?
By which I mean, there are SO many different and unique ways to build a dps character, less so for a tank (but still a fair number of options)...but for healers we get pidgeon-holed into Templar's restoring light tree and/or restoration staff weapon.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I noticed a major lack of healers in rvr during sieges, but that could have been a beta issue. Still I found it quite surprising, given the fact that it was super fast to complete the 20 kill quest when I used HoTs from resto staff.
Depending on how my rvr campaign looks I may just make one alt a full support character to help out during sieges.
I think there are more healers than there are tanks. Healers are viable in both PvE and PvP, but without a guard mechanic, or collision detection, I think tanks tend to lose a couple of "points" for players in PvP. This is not to say that they can't be fun or enjoyable, but they do miss some of the niche skills that make them fun in other games.
Well, you can't just pick up a resto staff and heal. You need to put points into the abilities it provides. And i figure anyone that does that, will likely also grab some light armor to stick on for the situations when they switch to healing.
Plus, just because someone is DPS doesn't mean that they have no magicka. For example, all of the NB damage abilities use magicka, so if i was switchting from NB DPS to NB + resto for heals, my setup would already have some magicka built-in.
Will that be as good as someone who is as good as a 100% dedicated healer build? Probably not. But good enough for some stuff - i expect so.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
Why would that be against the spirit of the skill system?
@OP, I am pretty sure it will be fine. The whole LF tank/healer thing got totally blown out of proportion with all the GW2 mumbo jumbo. ArenaNet just wanted to brainwash people that the best way to do it is to remove roles so that parties don't have to wait for a healer/tank. I never have experienced this problem to the extent that GW2 fans/ArenaNet seem to describe it. And man every time I hear holy trinity, I feel like I am about to puke. I mean holy CRAP! This stupid phrase was almost never used before GW2.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
That much heavy armor will also make the healer an agro magnet. Heavy armor magnifies the hate generated and given how weak the taunts are, the tank will struggle if the healer is also primarily in heavy armor.
I don't think GW2 got it right but a more flexible system would be nice. I feel like ESO is going to be a little more about dynamic builds. I just can't see someone standing there doing nothing but healing.
When i read stuff like this i feel that game is releasing too soon.
I think this thread shows a distinct lack of creativity.
Nightblade healer for only 30 pts.
http://www.esohead.com/calculator/skills#cczz9MIPq48heaj8heam8IPSd8IPU48IPww85ov7XLanU6LanW6Mhy3D6Mhx0n6Mhx0y6Mhx0l6Mhx0B8D7X68F7XrzrJ6rzrO6Lbux6Lbut6MIPNU6MIPAh6MIPAT6MIPAv
I would personally pair with Dual Wield for stam usage, CC, and AOE damage to clear trash.
11 points more gets you full light armor passives.
41 pts out of 300+ is not exactly a burden to get.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
Is this your first MMO? Patches and additions are a way of life in the MMO genre.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
There will be a lack of healers if the role of healing is difficult relative to dpsing, same with tanking.
I played a couple of the Betas. Rolled a Healer. Discovered that Tanks were more in demand, and since normally I prefer Tanking, I rolled an Orc Tank.
Discovered that Tanking takes more skill points dedicated to it. Heavy Armor, AoEs, One handed and Shield, and other damage mitigation points. It also requires knowing the fights; which at level 15 is meh. Who wants to study a dungeon boss they won't ever see again?
Meanwhile DPS is DPS.
While Tanking, if the Heals and DPS were awesome, I looked like the worlds greatest tank; when my heals were "I haz restro staff", and the DPS was just ok, well we wiped on trash.
Same place, better DPS, playing my healer, OMG this is easy. One fight I lost the tank, my own bad, I wasted power healing a dps.
So from difficulty vs reward, and to avoid the risk of getting cussed at by bad players, people will play DPS. Good news though, it looks like at higher levels skill points will be plentiful enough that people will have the right talents, it will just be about having the right gear; and enough practice with those 5+5 skills on the bar to know how to fill the roll.
Releasing classes with half of the skills and even acknowledging that and promising to add more skills in future isn't your normal patches and additions in life of MMO genre.
Where are you drawing the conclusion that they are releasing classes with half of the skills? I mean, that's not even close to what was said.
What he said is fairly close to typical MMO, where skills are added or changed based on feedback post release. Here they actually have an idea that they need to do that already, not exactly shocking news.
Releasing with half skills huh?
LOL
When one is blinded by hate they never need facts ....those that defend must use facts those that hate grasp at straws
Of course there'll be a lack of healers.
Lack of healers/tanks isn't a matter of who can play the role, it's who is willing to, and as long as healing and tanking come with more responsibility, more difficulty, and, most of all, more blame (much of it, frankly, unfair), there will be a much smaller percentage of people willing to take on those roles when they could instead hit DPS cruise control.
Rift tried the whole "Everyone can heal or tank (or, in the case of clerics, heal and tank... sorta), worked out same as ever. You get a lot of tanks and a gigaton of healers early on -- don't for a second think mostly low level beta play is going to be representative of the game in general -- but as reality sets in the bulk of those people turn to DPSing and you get the usual mix of shortages and the issues and egos on both sides that go with it.
What he said had nothing to do with classes, this is about overall types of skills available (key word here "builds"). Not a class having been overlooked. There really isn't what I would consider a completely healing focused class. Classes are open to a number of builds. It's just a dev answering a question seemingly honestly, regardless of those who would twist his words. He's saying "yes there are more DPS related skill builds". Besides...Isn't that always the case in every game?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Every class with the right skill points can be a healer, tank or dps.
But early on, most will be loading points into DPS to level, so there may be less healers and tanks on day one, but not in the end
I drived my conclusion from playing healer builds. Compared to DPS ..healing classes seem unfinished. It is quite obvious from what was said...
We are currently building several new skills for release in future patches, and while I can't confirm the specifics, many new healing and support spells will be included
He doesn't need to acknowledge that 'healing class skills are unfinished'. But if you want us to believe that this is the usual thing that happens at every MMO release than sure. There is difference between adding new extra skills one or two years down the lane and adding much needed new skills or spells just after release. Usually it is just balancing of skills and spells that takes place on basis of player feedback.
And the manner in which question was asked it is quite clear that players aren't going to wait for couple of years to get new spells / skills for healing.
I doubt you even played a healer during beta.
I think there will be lack of healers and tanks if the game doesnot allow during the lvl 50+ dungeons for a viable group setup with off tank playing as main tank in the group or off healers playing as main healers in a group. This is not down to players choosing a particular play style but due to the 4 man groups instead of traditional 5 man groups. To satisfy all players wanting to group for a dungeon traditionally 20% of the player base needed to be healers and 20% needed to be tanks. So if therefore in any game the player base was short of this % there was lack of the particular role in dungeons. But in ESO they have increased this % from 20 to 25 now. SO even a bigger player base needs to play healer or tank than they did in other MMO's.
There fore to compensate for this additional requirement of 5% off healers and off tanks playing this role viably will be important for regular groups to run dungeons without having long queue times looking to fill this class.
I have hence decided to play main as Orc templar tank (heavy armor + Sword + shield) and off spec as healer (resto staff + heavy armor + light armor). This is so i can play Tank if a group is short of a healer or as a healer if the group is short of a tank.