FACT is questing on rails has absolutely nothing to do with role playing.
Then the design that has been copied for years except by FFXI ,giving out leveling Xp for doing these quests is just ridiculous.
quest+xp=anti role playing.
You can call these games questing games but they are not rpg's.Also if everyone is following the exact same path,it is not a mmo design because YOUR role playing and YOUR game should never be identical to everyone else's.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I just hope for truly interesting npc characters that are memorable and have some epic moments like in a single player RPG, rather than forgetting them as they're so boring. Theres no reason a character cant be as good as any from a tv show, game or anime from the level of voice acting and cutscenes we get these days
Sadly I dont think ESO will be the one to do this either but oh well.
Originally posted by Mayor_Haggar I've accepted that this is Skyrim with friends even though the phasing is still horrible. Zenimax really split down the middle of what this game was really going to be. Nevertheless, I enjoy it and want the ESO community to last.
This is NOT skyrim with friends.... if it were you could ignore the main story and most boring quests and go wander in the wilds to see what there is to find and leveling that way. You could be clearing dungeons/castles/whatever, sometimes help some random people in the roads/town and I don't know solve puzzles and crafting.
Reducing exp from mobs making it mandatory to do quests to level if you want to keep up is not fine.
It would be ok if it was any ordinary mmorpg but this is supposed to be an elder scroll mmorpg so such elements make it less like an elder scrolls game and more into any of the other mmorpgs lying around the internet.
Most quests just kill the game for me... Especially when the questing is mandatory (as is the case with ESO). Like I'm too stupid to realize that the 4 guys standing next to me talking to the same NPC are doing the exact same quest that is my "destiny?"
Just give me tools and get out of my way, I'll make my own quests. Asheron's Call was fantastic in the early days.. There weren't "quests" but we fuckin quested, man.
If there wasn't a mandatory linear story arc questline, I would be thrilled about this game.. I just can't force myself to spend hours and hours doing a questgrind.. I could, however, spend that time grinding mobs, gathering, crafting, exploring, getting into open-world PvP, getting lost, figuring things out... I've had quite enough "go there and do this then run all the way back to me and left-click 42 times" to last me a lifetime.
Addendum: too many games, these days, put the story focus on the world... So you're playing a part in a play.. I wish we had a current-generation game that just allowed players to carve out their own destinies.. Asheron's Call had the best storyline ever: you've been sucked into this crazy and dangerous world. That's it. Now go figure it out. When did that formula expire?
agree 100% man, in AC you saw sombody with a bad ass weapon and said dude lets go get that shit, grab some friends and off you go.
not oh lets all talk to this npc then go deliver a letter to another npc then go collect 10 rat tails THEN lets go get the weapon. oh wait your not on that part yet? you still need rat tails? ok lets all wait for so and so then we can do the " quest ".
todays quest are all solo quest, others are just in your way. unless its a " group " quest wich is just a harder mob in a linear dungeon that nobody would ever get lost in.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Originally posted by Amjoco You do realize these games are loosely based off of table top pen and paper games. They have one game master that controls the players along a line of quests. The world is full of these people in every country playing, and all they need is a couple dice and an imagination. Stop and think what we are all given the chance to do with our computers and a few dollars. Start playing the game with your brain and don't expect the game to do all the work.
In Pen & Paper all players had different experiences even if they played in the same game world. This could also be done and has been done in computer games but presently the themepark "everybody must have the same forever" formula has become the modus operandi. Perhaps because it worked for WoW, perhaps because of something else.
Right now the game is doing everything, there is nothing to do for your brain. The game is locked into stasis awaiting new content by the developers, players cannot contribue in any way.
FACT is questing on rails has absolutely nothing to do with role playing.
Then the design that has been copied for years except by FFXI ,giving out leveling Xp for doing these quests is just ridiculous.
quest+xp=anti role playing.
You can call these games questing games but they are not rpg's.Also if everyone is following the exact same path,it is not a mmo design because YOUR role playing and YOUR game should never be identical to everyone else's.
FACT is questing on rails has absolutely nothing to do with role playing.
Then the design that has been copied for years except by FFXI ,giving out leveling Xp for doing these quests is just ridiculous.
quest+xp=anti role playing.
You can call these games questing games but they are not rpg's.Also if everyone is following the exact same path,it is not a mmo design because YOUR role playing and YOUR game should never be identical to everyone else's.
quality analytics
Or one persons narrow view of the term roll playing.
Most quests just kill the game for me... Especially when the questing is mandatory (as is the case with ESO). Like I'm too stupid to realize that the 4 guys standing next to me talking to the same NPC are doing the exact same quest that is my "destiny?"
Just give me tools and get out of my way, I'll make my own quests. Asheron's Call was fantastic in the early days.. There weren't "quests" but we fuckin quested, man.
If there wasn't a mandatory linear story arc questline, I would be thrilled about this game.. I just can't force myself to spend hours and hours doing a questgrind.. I could, however, spend that time grinding mobs, gathering, crafting, exploring, getting into open-world PvP, getting lost, figuring things out... I've had quite enough "go there and do this then run all the way back to me and left-click 42 times" to last me a lifetime.
Addendum: too many games, these days, put the story focus on the world... So you're playing a part in a play.. I wish we had a current-generation game that just allowed players to carve out their own destinies.. Asheron's Call had the best storyline ever: you've been sucked into this crazy and dangerous world. That's it. Now go figure it out. When did that formula expire?
agree 100% man, in AC you saw sombody with a bad ass weapon and said dude lets go get that shit, grab some friends and off you go.
not oh lets all talk to this npc then go deliver a letter to another npc then go collect 10 rat tails THEN lets go get the weapon. oh wait your not on that part yet? you still need rat tails? ok lets all wait for so and so then we can do the " quest ".
todays quest are all solo quest, others are just in your way. unless its a " group " quest wich is just a harder mob in a linear dungeon that nobody would ever get lost in.
Right?
The current state of "questing" in MMORPGs completely destroys the possibility of role playing for me.
A quest should never be the primary means for advancing your character.. every time I get a level or make significant progress from a quest, it cheapens the entire experience.. I traversed the dungeon, collected the orbs, summoned and killed the great spirit dragon (or whatever, just making shit up) and then I go back to town and tell some guy what I just did and BAM, XP! Oh, the talking to some guy in town was the rewarding part.. fantastic, let me just left-click through as many of those stupid dialogues as possible now.
FACT is questing on rails has absolutely nothing to do with role playing.
Then the design that has been copied for years except by FFXI ,giving out leveling Xp for doing these quests is just ridiculous.
quest+xp=anti role playing.
You can call these games questing games but they are not rpg's.Also if everyone is following the exact same path,it is not a mmo design because YOUR role playing and YOUR game should never be identical to everyone else's.
quality analytics
Or one persons narrow view of the term roll playing.
How do you roll play? is that with a ball or dice?
FACT is questing on rails has absolutely nothing to do with role playing.
Then the design that has been copied for years except by FFXI ,giving out leveling Xp for doing these quests is just ridiculous.
quest+xp=anti role playing.
You can call these games questing games but they are not rpg's.Also if everyone is following the exact same path,it is not a mmo design because YOUR role playing and YOUR game should never be identical to everyone else's.
Wow so does that mean NWN wasn't an RPG, Baldurs Gate wasn't, TES games aren't, and just about every other game under the RPG moniker? How about this, we'll just call them the RPG videogame genre?
The funny part is it's usually what people call for here that isn't what RPG's are about, as most of what they want is simulation and survival designs, games like Rust, Dayz, etc... or loot pinatas liek diablo with no direction just random genocide.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
FACT is questing on rails has absolutely nothing to do with role playing.
Then the design that has been copied for years except by FFXI ,giving out leveling Xp for doing these quests is just ridiculous.
quest+xp=anti role playing.
You can call these games questing games but they are not rpg's.Also if everyone is following the exact same path,it is not a mmo design because YOUR role playing and YOUR game should never be identical to everyone else's.
Wow so does that mean NWN wasn't an RPG, Baldurs Gate wasn't, TES games aren't, and just about every other game under the RPG moniker? How about this, we'll just call them the RPG videogame genre?
we're talking about MMORPGs. When you've got no choice but to interact with the AI, and there are no other players fulfilling the same destiny and rescuing the same princess that you just rescued two minutes ago, questing and NPC interaction is not immersion-breaking.. However, when you are playing an MMORPG, you CANNOT maintain character while doing quests.
FACT is questing on rails has absolutely nothing to do with role playing.
Then the design that has been copied for years except by FFXI ,giving out leveling Xp for doing these quests is just ridiculous.
quest+xp=anti role playing.
You can call these games questing games but they are not rpg's.Also if everyone is following the exact same path,it is not a mmo design because YOUR role playing and YOUR game should never be identical to everyone else's.
Wow so does that mean NWN wasn't an RPG, Baldurs Gate wasn't, TES games aren't, and just about every other game under the RPG moniker? How about this, we'll just call them the RPG videogame genre?
we're talking about MMORPGs. When you've got no choice but to interact with the AI, and there are no other players fulfilling the same destiny and rescuing the same princess that you just rescued two minutes ago, questing and NPC interaction is not immersion-breaking.. However, when you are playing an MMORPG, you CANNOT maintain character while doing quests.
Might want to reread his post he said nothing about MMORPGs, he was talking about questing....
You cannot. That doesn't mean everyone cannot, RP is all about suspension of disbelief after all.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
FACT is questing on rails has absolutely nothing to do with role playing.
Then the design that has been copied for years except by FFXI ,giving out leveling Xp for doing these quests is just ridiculous.
quest+xp=anti role playing.
You can call these games questing games but they are not rpg's.Also if everyone is following the exact same path,it is not a mmo design because YOUR role playing and YOUR game should never be identical to everyone else's.
Wow so does that mean NWN wasn't an RPG, Baldurs Gate wasn't, TES games aren't, and just about every other game under the RPG moniker? How about this, we'll just call them the RPG videogame genre?
we're talking about MMORPGs. When you've got no choice but to interact with the AI, and there are no other players fulfilling the same destiny and rescuing the same princess that you just rescued two minutes ago, questing and NPC interaction is not immersion-breaking.. However, when you are playing an MMORPG, you CANNOT maintain character while doing quests.
Rather, YOU choose not to.. I'm sure that there are plenty of ppl who aren't bothered by those things. The only thing that bothers me is if someone kills my quest mob for me and I get credit.. other than that.. who cares?
Originally posted by prowess Originally posted by DrunkWolfOriginally posted by prowessMost quests just kill the game for me... Especially when the questing is mandatory (as is the case with ESO). Like I'm too stupid to realize that the 4 guys standing next to me talking to the same NPC are doing the exact same quest that is my "destiny?"Just give me tools and get out of my way, I'll make my own quests. Asheron's Call was fantastic in the early days.. There weren't "quests" but we fuckin quested, man.If there wasn't a mandatory linear story arc questline, I would be thrilled about this game.. I just can't force myself to spend hours and hours doing a questgrind.. I could, however, spend that time grinding mobs, gathering, crafting, exploring, getting into open-world PvP, getting lost, figuring things out... I've had quite enough "go there and do this then run all the way back to me and left-click 42 times" to last me a lifetime.Addendum: too many games, these days, put the story focus on the world... So you're playing a part in a play.. I wish we had a current-generation game that just allowed players to carve out their own destinies.. Asheron's Call had the best storyline ever: you've been sucked into this crazy and dangerous world. That's it. Now go figure it out. When did that formula expire?
agree 100% man, in AC you saw sombody with a bad ass weapon and said dude lets go get that shit, grab some friends and off you go.not oh lets all talk to this npc then go deliver a letter to another npc then go collect 10 rat tails THEN lets go get the weapon. oh wait your not on that part yet? you still need rat tails? ok lets all wait for so and so then we can do the " quest ".todays quest are all solo quest, others are just in your way. unless its a " group " quest wich is just a harder mob in a linear dungeon that nobody would ever get lost in.Right?
The current state of "questing" in MMORPGs completely destroys the possibility of role playing for me.
A quest should never be the primary means for advancing your character.. every time I get a level or make significant progress from a quest, it cheapens the entire experience.. I traversed the dungeon, collected the orbs, summoned and killed the great spirit dragon (or whatever, just making shit up) and then I go back to town and tell some guy what I just did and BAM, XP! Oh, the talking to some guy in town was the rewarding part.. fantastic, let me just left-click through as many of those stupid dialogues as possible now.
why does the way you level up have anything to do with role playing?
i get that you don't like to do quests in mmo's but how does it ruin RP for you?
do you feel you have to be getting xp for when you RP? how is grinding mobs more RP friendly? can you not go to a tavern (just for example) and RP there regardless of the quest system in place?
ive RP'ed in a lot of games and in PnP games, not once did i feel i needed to be getting XP for RP'ing.
in pnp when i did get experience, it was by doing quests developed by the campaign and DM.
also, you say it doesn't make sense to get all the xp from completing the quests and none from killing mobs. but the way i see it, you are getting xp from doing all those tasks combined when you complete said quest.
you also have to consider that this is an ES MMO, did you expect it to not be quest driven and to just be able to grind mobs for xp?
Originally posted by Amjoco You do realize these games are loosely based off of table top pen and paper games. They have one game master that controls the players along a line of quests. The world is full of these people in every country playing, and all they need is a couple dice and an imagination. Stop and think what we are all given the chance to do with our computers and a few dollars. Start playing the game with your brain and don't expect the game to do all the work.
In Pen & Paper all players had different experiences even if they played in the same game world. This could also be done and has been done in computer games but presently the themepark "everybody must have the same forever" formula has become the modus operandi. Perhaps because it worked for WoW, perhaps because of something else.
Right now the game is doing everything, there is nothing to do for your brain. The game is locked into stasis awaiting new content by the developers, players cannot contribue in any way.
In Pen & Paper you play in a group in most cases. I'm not sure what you are saying about different experiences if the group is trying to achieve the same goal.
Also, the game isn't doing everything. I make choices. Do I want to be a crafter, do I want to support a guild, do I want plate armor or cloth, what weapon do I want? Should I play mostly PvP, do I grind for XP or quest? There are thousands of variables I decide, not the developers. The developers can add or remove content, but they can't do anything about my choices. The game is there as a foundation and simulates the world just as a GM would.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
Quests are the very foundation of PVE and RPG's its the very storyline of a game..
The RPG in an MMORPG is there because their is a role playing story to be learned or to be a part of in the game. Without Quests we would find ourselfs in a sandbox, where the RPG would be from players only...
Maybe what you want is a Sandbox MMORPG?
No. PvE is Player versus Environment. It has nothing to with questing. You are playing against the environment which may be an NPC character, a creature such as a wolf, lion or bear, trying to climb a mountain or take shelter from bad weather so you don't die of cold.
RPG has nothing to do with you playing a role within a story or even p[laying a role as your chosen class. A Role Playing Game is you playing a role of your choice in that game a hunter, farmer, minstrel or bandit are roles.
The problem is that many people associate MMORPGs with the themepark offering off today so the definition is now altered to meet this and is no longer the true definition of an MMORPG.
Quests are the very foundation of PVE and RPG's its the very storyline of a game..
The RPG in an MMORPG is there because their is a role playing story to be learned or to be a part of in the game. Without Quests we would find ourselfs in a sandbox, where the RPG would be from players only...
Maybe what you want is a Sandbox MMORPG?
No. PvE is Player versus Environment. It has nothing to with questing. You are playing against the environment which may be an NPC character, a creature such as a wolf, lion or bear, trying to climb a mountain or take shelter from bad weather so you don't die of cold.
RPG has nothing to do with you playing a role within a story or even p[laying a role as your chosen class. A Role Playing Game is you playing a role of your choice in that game a hunter, farmer, minstrel or bandit are roles.
The problem is that many people associate MMORPGs with the themepark offering off today so the definition is now altered to meet this and is no longer the true definition of an MMORPG.
No the problem is people always try and apply pen & paper RPing to video game adaptions. They're not close to the same thing.
RPG's in video-game format have almost always centered on story-lines and questing. Which makes perfect sense, you don't need to imagine things you're seeing, hearing and/or interacting with. quests are simply a mechanic that connects you to that world through deeds.
You're taking part in events that are happening, the quest is the delivery mechanic of that event. The NPC's are a representation of life in that world, the Cities as well. These are all simple tools to aid in the believability of that world and nothing more.
To say that themeparks are not trying to offer this same type of experience hurts my brain.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
A role playing game is nothing without a story. The enviroment is only a stage for the play. The story is what makes the game. A tale to be lived and remembered. It doesn't really matter if the story is from the game, or you makeup your own, or a mix of both. What mattered is what you did about it.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Yeah...not sure what the OP is looking for in an RPG. It's not about wearing tights and saying "/me I go hither!" while you search some land for....wait, without quests...what do we search for?
I get sand boxes...but they are even farther from a true RPG than a theme park without the actual role playing.
So what then? No quests?
In which MMO that you can name from when MMOs have been around hasn't there been quests of some sort? I know there have been some, but the OP acts like this is new.
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
OP, I agree 100% with you, in fact I have made the exact same constatation a couple months ago.
If you think about it, MMOs have been trying to apply a single player RPG formula to a MULTI player game for a decade.
99% of people don't even read quest dialog, they just go wherever the arrow points on the map, click or kill whatever needs to be clicked or killed, and go back to the NPC to "complete" the quest.
Or even better they do it in batch : get all the quests in the hub, run around the area poking at whatever shows as quest material on the minimap, and then talk to all the NPCs who gave the quests (often several quests per NPC), before doing the next batch if this has unlocked new quests, or heading to the next town (often conveniently pointed to by the one of the last quests in the current hub).
Talk about "Role play". And yea, we're not stupid, we know that the people around us are doing the same things, removing all meaning to our actions and leaving only the reward.
Obviously you can't hand craft tailored quests for every player.
So that leaves one option : remove questing almost completely. The only type of quest that make sense in a sane mmorpg is one requiring a large amount of players to accomplish a difficult task, and the game world remaining changed once the quest is complete.
And since you just removed a big chunk of work by removing questing, you can now put more work in your game mechanics, such as combat, crafting, world and player interactions and such. Don't give the player a Hero badge right out of character creation. Instead, put him in an unforgiving, dangerous world, and let him prove his worth. The stories people remember aren't the ones written in quest dialog. They are the ones they live.
Much more can be said about this but I'll leave it at that for now...
Comments
FACT is questing on rails has absolutely nothing to do with role playing.
Then the design that has been copied for years except by FFXI ,giving out leveling Xp for doing these quests is just ridiculous.
quest+xp=anti role playing.
You can call these games questing games but they are not rpg's.Also if everyone is following the exact same path,it is not a mmo design because YOUR role playing and YOUR game should never be identical to everyone else's.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
This
I just hope for truly interesting npc characters that are memorable and have some epic moments like in a single player RPG, rather than forgetting them as they're so boring. Theres no reason a character cant be as good as any from a tv show, game or anime from the level of voice acting and cutscenes we get these days
Sadly I dont think ESO will be the one to do this either but oh well.
This is NOT skyrim with friends.... if it were you could ignore the main story and most boring quests and go wander in the wilds to see what there is to find and leveling that way. You could be clearing dungeons/castles/whatever, sometimes help some random people in the roads/town and I don't know solve puzzles and crafting.
Reducing exp from mobs making it mandatory to do quests to level if you want to keep up is not fine.
It would be ok if it was any ordinary mmorpg but this is supposed to be an elder scroll mmorpg so such elements make it less like an elder scrolls game and more into any of the other mmorpgs lying around the internet.
agree 100% man, in AC you saw sombody with a bad ass weapon and said dude lets go get that shit, grab some friends and off you go.
not oh lets all talk to this npc then go deliver a letter to another npc then go collect 10 rat tails THEN lets go get the weapon. oh wait your not on that part yet? you still need rat tails? ok lets all wait for so and so then we can do the " quest ".
todays quest are all solo quest, others are just in your way. unless its a " group " quest wich is just a harder mob in a linear dungeon that nobody would ever get lost in.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Right now the game is doing everything, there is nothing to do for your brain. The game is locked into stasis awaiting new content by the developers, players cannot contribue in any way.
quality analytics
Or one persons narrow view of the term roll playing.
Right?
The current state of "questing" in MMORPGs completely destroys the possibility of role playing for me.
A quest should never be the primary means for advancing your character.. every time I get a level or make significant progress from a quest, it cheapens the entire experience.. I traversed the dungeon, collected the orbs, summoned and killed the great spirit dragon (or whatever, just making shit up) and then I go back to town and tell some guy what I just did and BAM, XP! Oh, the talking to some guy in town was the rewarding part.. fantastic, let me just left-click through as many of those stupid dialogues as possible now.
How do you roll play? is that with a ball or dice?
ES games are quest driven, if you don't like quests then ES games in general are not for you.
IMO i would rather level up by doing quests rather than mindlessly level up my skills like in some previous ES games.
Wow so does that mean NWN wasn't an RPG, Baldurs Gate wasn't, TES games aren't, and just about every other game under the RPG moniker? How about this, we'll just call them the RPG videogame genre?
The funny part is it's usually what people call for here that isn't what RPG's are about, as most of what they want is simulation and survival designs, games like Rust, Dayz, etc... or loot pinatas liek diablo with no direction just random genocide.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
we're talking about MMORPGs. When you've got no choice but to interact with the AI, and there are no other players fulfilling the same destiny and rescuing the same princess that you just rescued two minutes ago, questing and NPC interaction is not immersion-breaking.. However, when you are playing an MMORPG, you CANNOT maintain character while doing quests.
Might want to reread his post he said nothing about MMORPGs, he was talking about questing....
You cannot. That doesn't mean everyone cannot, RP is all about suspension of disbelief after all.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Rather, YOU choose not to.. I'm sure that there are plenty of ppl who aren't bothered by those things. The only thing that bothers me is if someone kills my quest mob for me and I get credit.. other than that.. who cares?
Right?
The current state of "questing" in MMORPGs completely destroys the possibility of role playing for me.
A quest should never be the primary means for advancing your character.. every time I get a level or make significant progress from a quest, it cheapens the entire experience.. I traversed the dungeon, collected the orbs, summoned and killed the great spirit dragon (or whatever, just making shit up) and then I go back to town and tell some guy what I just did and BAM, XP! Oh, the talking to some guy in town was the rewarding part.. fantastic, let me just left-click through as many of those stupid dialogues as possible now.
why does the way you level up have anything to do with role playing?
i get that you don't like to do quests in mmo's but how does it ruin RP for you?
do you feel you have to be getting xp for when you RP? how is grinding mobs more RP friendly? can you not go to a tavern (just for example) and RP there regardless of the quest system in place?
ive RP'ed in a lot of games and in PnP games, not once did i feel i needed to be getting XP for RP'ing.
in pnp when i did get experience, it was by doing quests developed by the campaign and DM.
also, you say it doesn't make sense to get all the xp from completing the quests and none from killing mobs. but the way i see it, you are getting xp from doing all those tasks combined when you complete said quest.
you also have to consider that this is an ES MMO, did you expect it to not be quest driven and to just be able to grind mobs for xp?
In Pen & Paper you play in a group in most cases. I'm not sure what you are saying about different experiences if the group is trying to achieve the same goal.
Also, the game isn't doing everything. I make choices. Do I want to be a crafter, do I want to support a guild, do I want plate armor or cloth, what weapon do I want? Should I play mostly PvP, do I grind for XP or quest? There are thousands of variables I decide, not the developers. The developers can add or remove content, but they can't do anything about my choices. The game is there as a foundation and simulates the world just as a GM would.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
No. PvE is Player versus Environment. It has nothing to with questing. You are playing against the environment which may be an NPC character, a creature such as a wolf, lion or bear, trying to climb a mountain or take shelter from bad weather so you don't die of cold.
RPG has nothing to do with you playing a role within a story or even p[laying a role as your chosen class. A Role Playing Game is you playing a role of your choice in that game a hunter, farmer, minstrel or bandit are roles.
The problem is that many people associate MMORPGs with the themepark offering off today so the definition is now altered to meet this and is no longer the true definition of an MMORPG.
No the problem is people always try and apply pen & paper RPing to video game adaptions. They're not close to the same thing.
RPG's in video-game format have almost always centered on story-lines and questing. Which makes perfect sense, you don't need to imagine things you're seeing, hearing and/or interacting with. quests are simply a mechanic that connects you to that world through deeds.
You're taking part in events that are happening, the quest is the delivery mechanic of that event. The NPC's are a representation of life in that world, the Cities as well. These are all simple tools to aid in the believability of that world and nothing more.
To say that themeparks are not trying to offer this same type of experience hurts my brain.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Yeah...not sure what the OP is looking for in an RPG. It's not about wearing tights and saying "/me I go hither!" while you search some land for....wait, without quests...what do we search for?
I get sand boxes...but they are even farther from a true RPG than a theme park without the actual role playing.
So what then? No quests?
In which MMO that you can name from when MMOs have been around hasn't there been quests of some sort? I know there have been some, but the OP acts like this is new.
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
Quests are not the enemy. Implementation first and foremost is the issue in most any MMO.
I'd rather make a separate thread to expound on this though if people actually wanted to.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
OP, I agree 100% with you, in fact I have made the exact same constatation a couple months ago.
If you think about it, MMOs have been trying to apply a single player RPG formula to a MULTI player game for a decade.
99% of people don't even read quest dialog, they just go wherever the arrow points on the map, click or kill whatever needs to be clicked or killed, and go back to the NPC to "complete" the quest.
Or even better they do it in batch : get all the quests in the hub, run around the area poking at whatever shows as quest material on the minimap, and then talk to all the NPCs who gave the quests (often several quests per NPC), before doing the next batch if this has unlocked new quests, or heading to the next town (often conveniently pointed to by the one of the last quests in the current hub).
Talk about "Role play". And yea, we're not stupid, we know that the people around us are doing the same things, removing all meaning to our actions and leaving only the reward.
Obviously you can't hand craft tailored quests for every player.
So that leaves one option : remove questing almost completely. The only type of quest that make sense in a sane mmorpg is one requiring a large amount of players to accomplish a difficult task, and the game world remaining changed once the quest is complete.
And since you just removed a big chunk of work by removing questing, you can now put more work in your game mechanics, such as combat, crafting, world and player interactions and such. Don't give the player a Hero badge right out of character creation. Instead, put him in an unforgiving, dangerous world, and let him prove his worth. The stories people remember aren't the ones written in quest dialog. They are the ones they live.
Much more can be said about this but I'll leave it at that for now...
No...they have been MMORPGs since forever. Like it or not. They didn't suddenly interject quests, they were ALWAYS THERE!!
After the introduction of MMORPGs, they THEN made different types. Not the other way around....
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."