Originally posted by CatAtomic99 Well, look at this way. Every hour that douche spends playing EVE is an hour he isn't cheating some elderly old widow out of her Social Security check.
Now that is just dumb...I suppose next you'll be saying that everyone that plays a an FPS game is actually a real killer and thank the game developers for making FPS games to keep them from shooting people in real life - right?
It was a joke. Lighten up, Francis.
But since we're on the subject, yeah-- I really do think a person who would pull a scam like that would be likely to scam vulnerable people in real life, too. I don't know if you've been outside much, but there's no great shortage of shitheels.
Yep, the real world is full of them...not just games.
You can not blame CCP for this, this is not their bust. If you could rationally do so, then using the same logic you could blame the company that made the software enabling the chat, the computer company that made the computer an so on down the line. The "blame" lies on both parties, the scammers and the scammed, the only thing that you can rally against is the abuse that the scammed person endures. Listening to the exchange they (the scammed) could have disconnected at any time and the person scammed knew they were being scammed.
Even knowing what importance people place on in game items, they should have been a point (after realizing they were duped) they should have disconnected. The rest of the background "Story" is just that, an unconfirmed story, unless someone here can personally verify the employment, medical condition(s) and personality of all involved.
Bad behaviour? Like a guy that claims to be suffering from PTSD, and is in control of planes - planes that have real people on them - in the real world - this is A OK! A guy that goes into a racial tirade is a good person? I guy that threatens to come to a persons house to hurt them? I guy that threatens your family members? This is a good person? Yes...rejoice and praise the goodness of the guy that got scammed - he is a frikking saint!
There is a HUGE difference between the actions and behavior of Erotica and the resultant outburst elicited from his methodical abuse.
That you point out the egregiously deceived and mentally abused victim's stress response in defense of the antagonist says a lot about your moral compass.
You can in no way condone the antagonist's behavior because of the victim's response. The response was elicited on purpose and methodically brought to fruition.
Wait...what? This so called victim allowed himself to get scammed. End of story. He freely participated in it of his own free will. Stop making excuses for his actions and behavior. He was greedy and stupid. You can't candy coat this - it is exactly that.
Also, this guy you are defending admits to having PTSD and is an air traffic controller in real life and he puts peoples lives in danger daily because of his problem and you think that is OK? That is not a game - that is real world.
Did reasoning and common sense just get thrown away in the last couple of days?
Very few of the people here that are known eve players seem to have a problem with the scam.
What we are saying is that the systematic humiliation of the player is not a valid part of eve's gameplay.
You appear to be allowing your emotions about the "victim's" racist rant to cloud your judgement of the tormentors.
You have to go through a mental evaluation before you are allowed to be an air traffic controller. If this guy has PTSD as bad as you seem to believe he has it...then you should be upset that this guy is putting other peoples lives in danger on a daily basis. And that is in the real world - not some game.
Selective reading for the win again. I tried to explain to you earlier that PTSD varies in degrees but yes every ex marine suffers from it. That doesn't mean they run around trying to harm other people. They are calm and mind their own business.I know those who have been working for years without an incident.
A lot of ex marines employed in various jobs choose to ignore this because of the social stigma attached to it. Way too many judgmental people like you ready to jump on them.
Lets forget about PTSD for a minute, any person would snap after 2 hours of mental harrasment.
I am sorry to say but even writing in caps couldn't get a simple point through your brain that it isn't just about scam but what happened after they scammed him.
But hey keep defending that scums actions not that you are going to get any support from my side. I already told you clearly what i think about people like him and those who defend his actions in any way or form.
Originally posted by Teala
So you know who Erotica 1 is, what they have done in their lives? You know nothing about him...for all you know he is former military as well.
You got to be kidding me. Do i really need to know anything more about this scum? wasn't this 2 hours of voice recording enough? no matter what he did in his life that doesn't change the fact that he is a horrible person.
Bad behaviour? Like a guy that claims to be suffering from PTSD, and is in control of planes - planes that have real people on them - in the real world - this is A OK! A guy that goes into a racial tirade is a good person? I guy that threatens to come to a persons house to hurt them? I guy that threatens your family members? This is a good person? Yes...rejoice and praise the goodness of the guy that got scammed - he is a frikking saint!
Well put.
I think there are really two different discussion going on this topic.
1- Was scamming him wrong?
No, its part of the game and always has been. They even made two official CCP trailers about being a victim, and that revenge can be just as sweet for the victim as it is for the victimizer, Causality and Retribution.
And
2- Was he too mentally challenged to realize he was being made fun of, did they go too far?
No hes not and no they didnt . Because thru that whole ordeal he knew he was being scammed. And obviously because they were scammers they were never going to give him his money back. Which then means he willingly submitted to being humiliated. So if this guy doesnt have a problem with it, why does everyone else got their jimmies in a knot?
Because people have some kind of weird hate fetish regarding EVE. They don't like it and they want to demonize it and any little thing that they perceive to give validity to their argument they use to that end. It's like people blaming video games on people that commit mass killings. Oh they played Counter Strike, or they played COD and that is what made them go and kill people. Some guy in a game gets scammed or his own accord and EVE is vilified. I suppose the next thing we'll be hearing is about how people shouldn't build tall buildings, because some dumb ass kid climbed out over the ledge to hang from one hand to take a picture of his stupid stunt and fell to his death.
You have to go through a mental evaluation before you are allowed to be an air traffic controller. If this guy has PTSD as bad as you seem to believe he has it...then you should be upset that this guy is putting other peoples lives in danger on a daily basis. And that is in the real world - not some game.
Selective reading for the win again. I tried to explain to you earlier that PTSD varies in degrees but yes every ex marine suffers from it. That doesn't mean they run around trying to harm other people. They are calm and mind their own business. A lot of ex marines are employed in various jobs and i bet most of them choose to ignore this because of the social stigma attached to it. Way too many judgmental people like you ready to jump on them.
Lets forget about PTSD for a minute, any person would snap after 2 hours of mental harrasment.
I am sorry to say but even writing in caps couldn't get a simple point through your brain that it isn't just about scam but what happened after they scammed him.
But hey keep defending that scums actions not that you are going to get any support from my side. I already told you clearly what i think about people like him and those who defend his actions in any way or form.
Originally posted by Teala
So you know who Erotica 1 is, what they have done in their lives? You know nothing about him...for all you know he is former military as well.
You got to be kidding me. Do i really need to know anything more about this scum? wasn't this 2 hours of voice recording enough? no matter what he did in his life that doesn't change the fact that he is a horrible person.
Yes, let's not address the so called victims behavior in the least - at all - he is a perfect angel. The guy chose to participate...he made the choice. What part of that don't you get? Was Erotica in this guys house and have him tied up and force him to play along? I don't think so. This so called victim was greedy...and he was stupid. It really is that simple and making excuses for this guy isn't helping your argument either. You don't even know if this guy really was a marine or if he even suffers from PTSD. He could be saying that just to garner sympathy. You don't know.
Bad behaviour? Like a guy that claims to be suffering from PTSD, and is in control of planes - planes that have real people on them - in the real world - this is A OK! A guy that goes into a racial tirade is a good person? I guy that threatens to come to a persons house to hurt them? I guy that threatens your family members? This is a good person? Yes...rejoice and praise the goodness of the guy that got scammed - he is a frikking saint!
There is a HUGE difference between the actions and behavior of Erotica and the resultant outburst elicited from his methodical abuse.
That you point out the egregiously deceived and mentally abused victim's stress response in defense of the antagonist says a lot about your moral compass.
You can in no way condone the antagonist's behavior because of the victim's response. The response was elicited on purpose and methodically brought to fruition.
Wait...what? This so called victim allowed himself to get scammed. End of story. He freely participated in it of his own free will. Stop making excuses for his actions and behavior. He was greedy and stupid. You can't candy coat this - it is exactly that.
Also, this guy you are defending admits to having PTSD and is an air traffic controller in real life and he puts peoples lives in danger daily because of his problem and you think that is OK? That is not a game - that is real world.
Did reasoning and common sense just get thrown away in the last couple of days?
Very few of the people here that are known eve players seem to have a problem with the scam.
What we are saying is that the systematic humiliation of the player is not a valid part of eve's gameplay.
You appear to be allowing your emotions about the "victim's" racist rant to cloud your judgement of the tormentors.
Tormentors?
Hehehe....please...all the guy had to do was sign off....like this....
You have to go through a mental evaluation before you are allowed to be an air traffic controller. If this guy has PTSD as bad as you seem to believe he has it...then you should be upset that this guy is putting other peoples lives in danger on a daily basis. And that is in the real world - not some game.
Selective reading for the win again. I tried to explain to you earlier that PTSD varies in degrees but yes every ex marine suffers from it. That doesn't mean they run around trying to harm other people. They are calm and mind their own business. A lot of ex marines are employed in various jobs and i bet most of them choose to ignore this because of the social stigma attached to it. Way too many judgmental people like you ready to jump on them.
Lets forget about PTSD for a minute, any person would snap after 2 hours of mental harrasment.
I am sorry to say but even writing in caps couldn't get a simple point through your brain that it isn't just about scam but what happened after they scammed him.
But hey keep defending that scums actions not that you are going to get any support from my side. I already told you clearly what i think about people like him and those who defend his actions in any way or form.
Originally posted by Teala
So you know who Erotica 1 is, what they have done in their lives? You know nothing about him...for all you know he is former military as well.
You got to be kidding me. Do i really need to know anything more about this scum? wasn't this 2 hours of voice recording enough? no matter what he did in his life that doesn't change the fact that he is a horrible person.
Yes, let's not address the so called victims behavior in the least - at all - he is a perfect angel. The guy chose to participate...he made the choice. What part of that don't you get? Was Erotica in this guys house and have him tied up and force him to play along? I don't think so. This so called victim was greedy...and he was stupid. It really is that simple and making excuses for this guy isn't helping your argument either. You don't even know if this guy really was a marine or if he even suffers from PTSD. He could be saying that just to garner sympathy. You don't know.
Yeah and i am sure defending Erotica's actions is surely helping your argument right?
Lets dehumanise a guy, take advantage of his obvious unstable state and anxiety issues and laugh at him for hours because well.. he made a choice to participate in a scam.
And because he is stupid obviously he deserves to be mocked and treated like a subhuman.
Got any more nuggets of wisdom to share with us all?
The only reason he posted this recording online was to find his audience that agrees with him in his wretched behavior and support him. I bet he would sleep like a baby knowing that there are people like you to defend him.
Bad behaviour? Like a guy that claims to be suffering from PTSD, and is in control of planes - planes that have real people on them - in the real world - this is A OK! A guy that goes into a racial tirade is a good person? I guy that threatens to come to a persons house to hurt them? I guy that threatens your family members? This is a good person? Yes...rejoice and praise the goodness of the guy that got scammed - he is a frikking saint!
There is a HUGE difference between the actions and behavior of Erotica and the resultant outburst elicited from his methodical abuse.
That you point out the egregiously deceived and mentally abused victim's stress response in defense of the antagonist says a lot about your moral compass.
You can in no way condone the antagonist's behavior because of the victim's response. The response was elicited on purpose and methodically brought to fruition.
Wait...what? This so called victim allowed himself to get scammed. End of story. He freely participated in it of his own free will. Stop making excuses for his actions and behavior. He was greedy and stupid. You can't candy coat this - it is exactly that.
Also, this guy you are defending admits to having PTSD and is an air traffic controller in real life and he puts peoples lives in danger daily because of his problem and you think that is OK? That is not a game - that is real world.
Did reasoning and common sense just get thrown away in the last couple of days?
Very few of the people here that are known eve players seem to have a problem with the scam.
What we are saying is that the systematic humiliation of the player is not a valid part of eve's gameplay.
You appear to be allowing your emotions about the "victim's" racist rant to cloud your judgement of the tormentors.
Tormentors?
Hehehe....please...all the guy had to do was sign off....like this....
So, for the record, in your opinion tormenting your fellow players is a valid part of eve's gameplay?
Everyone is greedy to a certain extent. Knowing when something is too good to be true requires experience and good observation, but just because people choose to be greedy does not give people that swindle them an ethical pass.
As a side note, I don't give two shits out of a rat's ass about Eve. I just happened to peruse the main threads and had to comment on this. I don't have a problem with someone being scammed in a game that clearly allows it. I do have a problem with abuse and manipulation above and beyond singular monetary aims, AND THEN putting it out for all to see.
You seem to lack basic empathy. You should meditate on this.
Because people have some kind of weird hate fetish regarding EVE. They don't like it and they want to demonize it and any little thing that they perceive to give validity to their argument they use to that end. It's like people blaming video games on people that commit mass killings. Oh they played Counter Strike, or they played COD and that is what made them go and kill people. Some guy in a game gets scammed or his own accord and EVE is vilified. I suppose the next thing we'll be hearing is about how people shouldn't build tall buildings, because some dumb ass kid climbed out over the ledge to hang from one hand to take a picture of his stupid stunt and fell to his death.
Exactly!
As I said in my previous post the attitude of some of the prudes here reminds me of the story of James Vance:
In short: an stupid kid that tried to commit ritual suicide, failed and was left disfigured. Later, their parents issued Judas Priest as the responsible of this. Unreal.
Yeah, let's ban heavy metal and EVE because some people act stupidly and don't know to take responsibility over their actions.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
You have to go through a mental evaluation before you are allowed to be an air traffic controller. If this guy has PTSD as bad as you seem to believe he has it...then you should be upset that this guy is putting other peoples lives in danger on a daily basis. And that is in the real world - not some game.
Selective reading for the win again. I tried to explain to you earlier that PTSD varies in degrees but yes every ex marine suffers from it. That doesn't mean they run around trying to harm other people. They are calm and mind their own business.I know those who have been working for years without an incident.
A lot of ex marines employed in various jobs choose to ignore this because of the social stigma attached to it. Way too many judgmental people like you ready to jump on them.
Lets forget about PTSD for a minute, any person would snap after 2 hours of mental harrasment.
I am sorry to say but even writing in caps couldn't get a simple point through your brain that it isn't just about scam but what happened after they scammed him.
But hey keep defending that scums actions not that you are going to get any support from my side. I already told you clearly what i think about people like him and those who defend his actions in any way or form.
Originally posted by Teala
So you know who Erotica 1 is, what they have done in their lives? You know nothing about him...for all you know he is former military as well.
You got to be kidding me. Do i really need to know anything more about this scum? wasn't this 2 hours of voice recording enough? no matter what he did in his life that doesn't change the fact that he is a horrible person.
I think you're completely missing the point. For all you know, Erotica could also be a marine. You're using the marine thing to try to defend the victim and make it look like it makes him somehow unique, and calling Erotica a coward, talking about laying down your lives, etc. What if Erotica were also a marine? Does that magically stop him from being a scumbag in your eyes? I mean, clearly being a marine excuses away the "victims" personal and psychological issues to you, so what if Erotica also had issues brought about by being in the military that caused him to enjoy doing such things to others? It's OK though, because he was in the military, right? That automatically makes him a brave and honorable person incapable of having any human flaws completely unrelated to the their experiences in the military right? I guess so, I mean we all know no "bad" people have ever served....
Originally posted by Rigur This is a great representation of the PvP Community as a whole. All PvP players love and enjoy watching others suffer. That's why they play these games not for "skill". I couldn't be happer to have them no where near me in any MMO I play. They can call PVEers carebears all they want I call them caring and sane Individuals.
You sir (ma'am?) sound completely ignorant.
1st off, this has absolutely nothing to do with PvP or the PvP community. It was a trade scam, not PvP taking place. It could be done in any game which allows trading, no PvP involved.
2nd, not every PvPer is a griefer. Juts like not every PvE player is a saint, though you seem to think so. PvP brings something that no PvE game can bring: playing against enemies who actually think & react to every situation differently. PvE consists of fighting the same pre-scripted fight over and over again. If you've figured out the strategy, it works every single time. It becomes tedious and boring. Safe and predictable in just about every way, to the point where most content can be completed byr unning bots / macros because of the repetition and predictability.The enemy won't switch up their strategies, positioning, skill usage, call for backup, etc like an enemy player in a PvP game.
I've got to wonder about this "sanity" you claim PvE players have when you find repeating the same exact fight over and over again, already knowing exactly what will happen, entertainment.
You have to go through a mental evaluation before you are allowed to be an air traffic controller. If this guy has PTSD as bad as you seem to believe he has it...then you should be upset that this guy is putting other peoples lives in danger on a daily basis. And that is in the real world - not some game.
Selective reading for the win again. I tried to explain to you earlier that PTSD varies in degrees but yes every ex marine suffers from it. That doesn't mean they run around trying to harm other people. They are calm and mind their own business.I know those who have been working for years without an incident.
A lot of ex marines employed in various jobs choose to ignore this because of the social stigma attached to it. Way too many judgmental people like you ready to jump on them.
Lets forget about PTSD for a minute, any person would snap after 2 hours of mental harrasment.
I am sorry to say but even writing in caps couldn't get a simple point through your brain that it isn't just about scam but what happened after they scammed him.
But hey keep defending that scums actions not that you are going to get any support from my side. I already told you clearly what i think about people like him and those who defend his actions in any way or form.
Originally posted by Teala
So you know who Erotica 1 is, what they have done in their lives? You know nothing about him...for all you know he is former military as well.
You got to be kidding me. Do i really need to know anything more about this scum? wasn't this 2 hours of voice recording enough? no matter what he did in his life that doesn't change the fact that he is a horrible person.
I think you're completely missing the point. For all you know, Erotica could also be a marine. You're using the marine thing to try to defend the victim and make it look like it makes him somehow unique, and calling Erotica a coward, talking about laying down your lives, etc. What if Erotica were also a marine? Does that magically stop him from being a scumbag in your eyes? I mean, clearly being a marine excuses away the "victims" personal and psychological issues to you, so what if Erotica also had issues brought about by being in the military that caused him to enjoy doing such things to others? It's OK though, because he was in the military, right? That automatically makes him a brave and honorable person incapable of having any human flaws completely unrelated to the their experiences in the military right? I guess so, I mean we all know no "bad" people have ever served....
Its you who is missing the point i am afraid.
My stance ; No human being deserves humiliation of this kind.
Teala's stance ; He is stupid so he deserves to be mocked and laughed at.
That is the crux of argument here. Not that i am shocked or anything. World is full of insensitive herd mentality people who would enjoy and get amusement out of dehumanising of someone like him.
You have to go through a mental evaluation before you are allowed to be an air traffic controller. If this guy has PTSD as bad as you seem to believe he has it...then you should be upset that this guy is putting other peoples lives in danger on a daily basis. And that is in the real world - not some game.
Selective reading for the win again. I tried to explain to you earlier that PTSD varies in degrees but yes every ex marine suffers from it. That doesn't mean they run around trying to harm other people. They are calm and mind their own business.I know those who have been working for years without an incident.
A lot of ex marines employed in various jobs choose to ignore this because of the social stigma attached to it. Way too many judgmental people like you ready to jump on them.
Lets forget about PTSD for a minute, any person would snap after 2 hours of mental harrasment.
I am sorry to say but even writing in caps couldn't get a simple point through your brain that it isn't just about scam but what happened after they scammed him.
But hey keep defending that scums actions not that you are going to get any support from my side. I already told you clearly what i think about people like him and those who defend his actions in any way or form.
Originally posted by Teala
So you know who Erotica 1 is, what they have done in their lives? You know nothing about him...for all you know he is former military as well.
You got to be kidding me. Do i really need to know anything more about this scum? wasn't this 2 hours of voice recording enough? no matter what he did in his life that doesn't change the fact that he is a horrible person.
I think you're completely missing the point. For all you know, Erotica could also be a marine. You're using the marine thing to try to defend the victim and make it look like it makes him somehow unique, and calling Erotica a coward, talking about laying down your lives, etc. What if Erotica were also a marine? Does that magically stop him from being a scumbag in your eyes? I mean, clearly being a marine excuses away the "victims" personal and psychological issues to you, so what if Erotica also had issues brought about by being in the military that caused him to enjoy doing such things to others? It's OK though, because he was in the military, right? That automatically makes him a brave and honorable person incapable of having any human flaws completely unrelated to the their experiences in the military right? I guess so, I mean we all know no "bad" people have ever served....
Its you who is missing the point i am afraid.
My stance ; No human being deserves humiliation of this kind.
Teala's stance ; He is stupid so he deserves to be mocked and laughed at.
That is the crux of argument here. Not that i am shocked or anything. World is full of insensitive herd mentality people who would enjoy and get amusement out of dehumanising of someone like him.
Oh thank you for trying to demonize me now and make stuff up. Where did I ever, in all this time say that my stance is that he deserves to be laughed at and mocked?
I'm with you on you comments about pvp and ignorance, but then you go on to be equally offensive about pve sir/madam.. is not about repeating content (that's bad pve), great pve is about immersion and progression and complicated stories and boss encounters, and battlegrounds, and exploring/grinding. It goes on. If you can't understand a game style and why people love it then it does not make it bad. I hate pvp (scamming has nothing to do with it). But I understand why people enjoy it - for the reasons above. Not all people enjoy aggression and the need to look over your shoulder all the time, just as some people don't get exploration and cohesive virtual worlds rich with lore.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Oh thank you for trying to demonize me now and make stuff up. Where did I ever, in all this time say that my stance is that he deserves to be laughed at and mocked?
Oh so you repeatedly telling me that he is stupid and he deserved it was just my imagination?
Oh thank you for trying to demonize me now and make stuff up. Where did I ever, in all this time say that my stance is that he deserves to be laughed at and mocked?
Oh so you repeatedly telling me that he is stupid and he deserved it was just my imagination?
Yes...you imagined I said he deserved it. Please go read and then post that I said he deserved it. I said he was stupid for falling for the scam. That's all I ever said. Are you saying he wasn't stupid for falling for it?
Originally posted by Bladestrom I'm with you on you comments about pvp and ignorance, but then you go on to be equally offensive about pve sir/madam.. is not about repeating content (that's bad pve), great pve is about immersion and progression and complicated stories and boss encounters, and battlegrounds, and exploring/grinding. It goes on. If you can't understand a game style and why people love it then it does not make it bad. I hate pvp (scamming has nothing to do with it). But I understand why people enjoy it - for the reasons above. Not all people enjoy aggression and the need to look over your shoulder all the time, just as some people don't get exploration and cohesive virtual worlds rich with lore.
You do have a point about the story, exploration, etc. I enjoy those hings as well, Im not completely anti-PvE. I grew up on SRPGs since the 80s that even then offered better story and exploration than many games now offer. I just grow extremely bored with it now that I've moved on to MMOs and PvP very easily because once you have done those things you mentioned, completed the story, fully explored an area, etc that's it. You're done. Unlike our own natural world, you're not going to return to the same area later to find something new and unexpected that wasn't there before. The story is still going to be the same. Granted there are a few great ones worth redoing for the entertainment, just like watching a great movie or reading a great book more than once,but most aren't that great especially in MMOs.
Aside from those typically one and done experiences, the majority of it consists of grinding the same unchanging content / fights over and over again. How many people actually redo the same dungeon / raid 50 times because it's just THAT amazing? Very few. Realistically people are doing it because of the potential for reward after doing it enough times. If those rewards weren't being given people wouldn't do them constantly.
On the other hand with PvP, you never know what is going to happen. You could be strolling along laying waste to everything in your path, taking over enemy objectives, locking zones, moving up the ladders, etc. Then all of a sudden that 1 guy shows up. You know that guy. The one that seems to be everywhere you are, turning you into a corpse before you can even put more than a scratch on him. The guy that you see everyone QQing about in chat accusing him of hacking, etc but you know he isn't he is just outplaying (or possibly outgearing depending on the game) everyone that much. You find yourself scrambling to put together better teams of people, changing up your strategies, anything and everything to find a way to deal with that guy consistently. You finally find a way... then one of his buddies comes to join the fun and it all goes to hell again.
That's just with smaller scale fights. When you get into large scale PvP, like RvR zones in DAoC & WAR, it becomes a whole different game with tacticians on each side leading warbands trying to take out other warbands and take over keeps. You'll often have several hour long battles with the tide going back and forth between the 2 sides until either a strategy comes into play that the enemy has no defense for, or sheer numbers win. Meanwhile you also have the constant smaller gank squads running around picking off smaller groups and stragglers, locking down smaller objectives and helping keep the enemy pinned down or preventing them from fleeing or providing support on the outskirts of the larger battle. You even wind up with some of those gank squads being so effective that the entire battle is won through their massive kill counts completely shutting down anyone trying to come join the main fight.
That sort of stuff doesn't happen in PvE. At best, you'll have someone make a big mistake and the rest of the team has to scramble to make up for it to win the fight. Aside from that though, everyone has their specific places to stand jobs to do, rotations to follow. Stand at X, use X skill at this time, Y skill at that time, everyone move to this spot, now do this.... Sure some of the fights can appear challenging at first, but they ALWAYS have sort of an "I win" button because of them being scripted. Just follow the known strategy and you can't lose. If you beat it once, you can beat it again a million times without having to change a thing. There are no real surprises, only mistakes being made by someone who doesnt have it down yet.
I wish it wasn't that way. I would have a lot more fun games to play. But with current AI being implemented in most games, especially MMOs (made even easier for the masses as years go by), there is no real challenge. No actual risk vs reward. It's pretty much all reward. I get that some people find that appealing and gratifying, but I'm the type of person that prefers high risk even if it is for little material reward. My biggest reward is knowing that I was able to take down my unpredictable competitors, especially when it involves outsmarting another good player to the point where they don't even understand how or why they just lost and how futile anything they tried would have been because I set them up for a perfect kill. Not some shiny piece of gear for beating the same repetitive fight that everyone else is beating all day long.
This scam is as old as Eve itself. Why the sudden outrage?
"A fool and his money are soon parted".
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
I posted this in the other thread on the same topic, maybe it has relevance here too, maybe not. Here goes anyway.
This is a little more complex than just, "no harm, no foul". Nobody was physically harmed, and maybe somebody learned a lesson. More than one lesson maybe. That may not excuse the behavior.
Someone brought up Zimbardo's Stanford Prison Experiment in [this] thread, and I'm going to use that here. We learned a lot of stuff from that experiment, and everyone involved in the experiment stated that they were not sorry they participated, including the guy who had a literal mental breakdown. That doesn't mean it was OK, and the experiment has never been repeated because of the results. Sometimes the only way to know where the line is, is by stepping across it.
First, we have to allow that scamming, murder, theft, etc. are all allowed within the context of the game. If Eve were an alien culture full of immortal beings and limited resources to police their frontier, this makes sense. Murder and loss of property are all things that wash out over time so there's not really much point in expending all the resources to police them. So, moving on past the accepted cultural norms, we ask a couple of questions.
Did the scammers step across a line by their behavior, regardless of the end result? Not the scam mind you, but the aggressive and for lack of a better word, "Trolling" nature of the encouter.
Did the person who released the encounter step across a line, regardless of the end result?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by Kyleran Just to again point out, this activity is not reflective of the EVE community as a whole, nor is this behavior unique to EVE.
One of the best griefing guilds of all time, the Dark Wolves have been making people miserable and screwing with folks since 1996.
www.darkwolvesgaming.com
Actually it is unique. EvE breeds a special kind of sociopath. One that has an insatiable lust to feed his hubris by publicly humiliating a human being.
EvE breeds these kind of people, it creates more scum on a daily basis. People get scammed and humiliated constantly and the ones that do not rage quit become the new scamers and bottom feeders. Its a cycle of anger and frustration that has created an incredible hostile and antisocial environment. EvE will eventually collapse under this pile of shit.
Posting these humiliating recordings publicly can actually have very real legal consequences. This is not covered by free speech and is crossing into defamation. I would be very careful if i where this Erotica 1 person. This could eventually backfire and become very ugly.
Originally posted by hulgar Humans ara antisocial and violent by nature. -Hobbes
Wrong. A social environment that rewards violence, greed, gluttony and hubris creates exactly that.
There have been many studies and there are real live examples right now on this planet, that have proven that alternative societies that reward kindness and empathy do not show any signs of violence or antisocial behaviour.
This is a common excuse use by people that promote violence and antisocial behaviour.
1. Learn to spell.
Maybe you should take your own advice, there is not one single error in my post.
2. Learn the difference between opinion and fact because even after 7 years of playing EVE I am no more violent or antisocial than I started and absolute laws (like yours) hate counterexamples like me.
Straw man, i was not saying everyone so i have no idea what you are talking about. Maybe you also got problems with reading comprehension?
"Give players systems and tools instead of rails and rules"
Makes sense. Behavior in the game that falls within accepted norms for the Eve Online universe is fine. Real world harassment is not, and Eve players that engage in verifiable real world harassment will be sanctioned.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Comments
Yep, the real world is full of them...not just games.
They are.
Very few of the people here that are known eve players seem to have a problem with the scam.
What we are saying is that the systematic humiliation of the player is not a valid part of eve's gameplay.
You appear to be allowing your emotions about the "victim's" racist rant to cloud your judgement of the tormentors.
Selective reading for the win again. I tried to explain to you earlier that PTSD varies in degrees but yes every ex marine suffers from it. That doesn't mean they run around trying to harm other people. They are calm and mind their own business.I know those who have been working for years without an incident.
A lot of ex marines employed in various jobs choose to ignore this because of the social stigma attached to it. Way too many judgmental people like you ready to jump on them.
Lets forget about PTSD for a minute, any person would snap after 2 hours of mental harrasment.
I am sorry to say but even writing in caps couldn't get a simple point through your brain that it isn't just about scam but what happened after they scammed him.
But hey keep defending that scums actions not that you are going to get any support from my side. I already told you clearly what i think about people like him and those who defend his actions in any way or form.
You got to be kidding me. Do i really need to know anything more about this scum? wasn't this 2 hours of voice recording enough? no matter what he did in his life that doesn't change the fact that he is a horrible person.
Because people have some kind of weird hate fetish regarding EVE. They don't like it and they want to demonize it and any little thing that they perceive to give validity to their argument they use to that end. It's like people blaming video games on people that commit mass killings. Oh they played Counter Strike, or they played COD and that is what made them go and kill people. Some guy in a game gets scammed or his own accord and EVE is vilified. I suppose the next thing we'll be hearing is about how people shouldn't build tall buildings, because some dumb ass kid climbed out over the ledge to hang from one hand to take a picture of his stupid stunt and fell to his death.
Yes, let's not address the so called victims behavior in the least - at all - he is a perfect angel. The guy chose to participate...he made the choice. What part of that don't you get? Was Erotica in this guys house and have him tied up and force him to play along? I don't think so. This so called victim was greedy...and he was stupid. It really is that simple and making excuses for this guy isn't helping your argument either. You don't even know if this guy really was a marine or if he even suffers from PTSD. He could be saying that just to garner sympathy. You don't know.
Tormentors?
Hehehe....please...all the guy had to do was sign off....like this....
Yeah and i am sure defending Erotica's actions is surely helping your argument right?
Lets dehumanise a guy, take advantage of his obvious unstable state and anxiety issues and laugh at him for hours because well.. he made a choice to participate in a scam.
And because he is stupid obviously he deserves to be mocked and treated like a subhuman.
Got any more nuggets of wisdom to share with us all?
The only reason he posted this recording online was to find his audience that agrees with him in his wretched behavior and support him. I bet he would sleep like a baby knowing that there are people like you to defend him.
So, for the record, in your opinion tormenting your fellow players is a valid part of eve's gameplay?
Teala, your logic is flawed.
Everyone is greedy to a certain extent. Knowing when something is too good to be true requires experience and good observation, but just because people choose to be greedy does not give people that swindle them an ethical pass.
As a side note, I don't give two shits out of a rat's ass about Eve. I just happened to peruse the main threads and had to comment on this. I don't have a problem with someone being scammed in a game that clearly allows it. I do have a problem with abuse and manipulation above and beyond singular monetary aims, AND THEN putting it out for all to see.
You seem to lack basic empathy. You should meditate on this.
Exactly!
As I said in my previous post the attitude of some of the prudes here reminds me of the story of James Vance:
http://ultimateclassicrock.com/judas-priest-suicide/
In short: an stupid kid that tried to commit ritual suicide, failed and was left disfigured. Later, their parents issued Judas Priest as the responsible of this. Unreal.
Yeah, let's ban heavy metal and EVE because some people act stupidly and don't know to take responsibility over their actions.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
I think you're completely missing the point. For all you know, Erotica could also be a marine. You're using the marine thing to try to defend the victim and make it look like it makes him somehow unique, and calling Erotica a coward, talking about laying down your lives, etc. What if Erotica were also a marine? Does that magically stop him from being a scumbag in your eyes? I mean, clearly being a marine excuses away the "victims" personal and psychological issues to you, so what if Erotica also had issues brought about by being in the military that caused him to enjoy doing such things to others? It's OK though, because he was in the military, right? That automatically makes him a brave and honorable person incapable of having any human flaws completely unrelated to the their experiences in the military right? I guess so, I mean we all know no "bad" people have ever served....
You sir (ma'am?) sound completely ignorant.
1st off, this has absolutely nothing to do with PvP or the PvP community. It was a trade scam, not PvP taking place. It could be done in any game which allows trading, no PvP involved.
2nd, not every PvPer is a griefer. Juts like not every PvE player is a saint, though you seem to think so. PvP brings something that no PvE game can bring: playing against enemies who actually think & react to every situation differently. PvE consists of fighting the same pre-scripted fight over and over again. If you've figured out the strategy, it works every single time. It becomes tedious and boring. Safe and predictable in just about every way, to the point where most content can be completed byr unning bots / macros because of the repetition and predictability.The enemy won't switch up their strategies, positioning, skill usage, call for backup, etc like an enemy player in a PvP game.
I've got to wonder about this "sanity" you claim PvE players have when you find repeating the same exact fight over and over again, already knowing exactly what will happen, entertainment.
Its you who is missing the point i am afraid.
My stance ; No human being deserves humiliation of this kind.
Teala's stance ; He is stupid so he deserves to be mocked and laughed at.
That is the crux of argument here. Not that i am shocked or anything. World is full of insensitive herd mentality people who would enjoy and get amusement out of dehumanising of someone like him.
Oh thank you for trying to demonize me now and make stuff up. Where did I ever, in all this time say that my stance is that he deserves to be laughed at and mocked?
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Oh so you repeatedly telling me that he is stupid and he deserved it was just my imagination?
Yes...you imagined I said he deserved it. Please go read and then post that I said he deserved it. I said he was stupid for falling for the scam. That's all I ever said. Are you saying he wasn't stupid for falling for it?
You do have a point about the story, exploration, etc. I enjoy those hings as well, Im not completely anti-PvE. I grew up on SRPGs since the 80s that even then offered better story and exploration than many games now offer. I just grow extremely bored with it now that I've moved on to MMOs and PvP very easily because once you have done those things you mentioned, completed the story, fully explored an area, etc that's it. You're done. Unlike our own natural world, you're not going to return to the same area later to find something new and unexpected that wasn't there before. The story is still going to be the same. Granted there are a few great ones worth redoing for the entertainment, just like watching a great movie or reading a great book more than once,but most aren't that great especially in MMOs.
Aside from those typically one and done experiences, the majority of it consists of grinding the same unchanging content / fights over and over again. How many people actually redo the same dungeon / raid 50 times because it's just THAT amazing? Very few. Realistically people are doing it because of the potential for reward after doing it enough times. If those rewards weren't being given people wouldn't do them constantly.
On the other hand with PvP, you never know what is going to happen. You could be strolling along laying waste to everything in your path, taking over enemy objectives, locking zones, moving up the ladders, etc. Then all of a sudden that 1 guy shows up. You know that guy. The one that seems to be everywhere you are, turning you into a corpse before you can even put more than a scratch on him. The guy that you see everyone QQing about in chat accusing him of hacking, etc but you know he isn't he is just outplaying (or possibly outgearing depending on the game) everyone that much. You find yourself scrambling to put together better teams of people, changing up your strategies, anything and everything to find a way to deal with that guy consistently. You finally find a way... then one of his buddies comes to join the fun and it all goes to hell again.
That's just with smaller scale fights. When you get into large scale PvP, like RvR zones in DAoC & WAR, it becomes a whole different game with tacticians on each side leading warbands trying to take out other warbands and take over keeps. You'll often have several hour long battles with the tide going back and forth between the 2 sides until either a strategy comes into play that the enemy has no defense for, or sheer numbers win. Meanwhile you also have the constant smaller gank squads running around picking off smaller groups and stragglers, locking down smaller objectives and helping keep the enemy pinned down or preventing them from fleeing or providing support on the outskirts of the larger battle. You even wind up with some of those gank squads being so effective that the entire battle is won through their massive kill counts completely shutting down anyone trying to come join the main fight.
That sort of stuff doesn't happen in PvE. At best, you'll have someone make a big mistake and the rest of the team has to scramble to make up for it to win the fight. Aside from that though, everyone has their specific places to stand jobs to do, rotations to follow. Stand at X, use X skill at this time, Y skill at that time, everyone move to this spot, now do this.... Sure some of the fights can appear challenging at first, but they ALWAYS have sort of an "I win" button because of them being scripted. Just follow the known strategy and you can't lose. If you beat it once, you can beat it again a million times without having to change a thing. There are no real surprises, only mistakes being made by someone who doesnt have it down yet.
I wish it wasn't that way. I would have a lot more fun games to play. But with current AI being implemented in most games, especially MMOs (made even easier for the masses as years go by), there is no real challenge. No actual risk vs reward. It's pretty much all reward. I get that some people find that appealing and gratifying, but I'm the type of person that prefers high risk even if it is for little material reward. My biggest reward is knowing that I was able to take down my unpredictable competitors, especially when it involves outsmarting another good player to the point where they don't even understand how or why they just lost and how futile anything they tried would have been because I set them up for a perfect kill. Not some shiny piece of gear for beating the same repetitive fight that everyone else is beating all day long.
This scam is as old as Eve itself. Why the sudden outrage?
"A fool and his money are soon parted".
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
I posted this in the other thread on the same topic, maybe it has relevance here too, maybe not. Here goes anyway.
This is a little more complex than just, "no harm, no foul". Nobody was physically harmed, and maybe somebody learned a lesson. More than one lesson maybe. That may not excuse the behavior.
Someone brought up Zimbardo's Stanford Prison Experiment in [this] thread, and I'm going to use that here. We learned a lot of stuff from that experiment, and everyone involved in the experiment stated that they were not sorry they participated, including the guy who had a literal mental breakdown. That doesn't mean it was OK, and the experiment has never been repeated because of the results. Sometimes the only way to know where the line is, is by stepping across it.
First, we have to allow that scamming, murder, theft, etc. are all allowed within the context of the game. If Eve were an alien culture full of immortal beings and limited resources to police their frontier, this makes sense. Murder and loss of property are all things that wash out over time so there's not really much point in expending all the resources to police them. So, moving on past the accepted cultural norms, we ask a couple of questions.
Did the scammers step across a line by their behavior, regardless of the end result? Not the scam mind you, but the aggressive and for lack of a better word, "Trolling" nature of the encouter.
Did the person who released the encounter step across a line, regardless of the end result?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Looks like CCP has changed some of it's policies and is investigating things like this now. Post from today.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=332912&find=unread
Makes sense. Behavior in the game that falls within accepted norms for the Eve Online universe is fine. Real world harassment is not, and Eve players that engage in verifiable real world harassment will be sanctioned.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.