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Did ESO get the soft trinity right? What do you guys think?
Rusque
Member RarePosts: 2,785
GW2 made a really really soft trinity - there's a hint of it, but as we all know it ended up with zerging being the most common method of doing group content.
I think the ESO model is what GW2 should have been (and wanted to be but fell short). It's soft enough that there's a lot of play between tank, healer and dps. The tank cannot hold all the mobs, so the dps has to keep themselves safe and alive long enough for the tank to control the situation; and healing has been done really well in ESO, no playing whack a mole, you also have to block, dodge, interrupt, attack while using your heals.
The group dynamic feels great and I like that the dungeons are reminiscent of cata launch heroic where if people make mistakes, the group can wipe from it.
Also of note, CC is back! Which I'm very happy about, but there's all sorts of CC in ESO and it really helps in groups. Smart DPS can make a huge difference in keeping people safe and making the healers life easier, and slows are magnificent help for tanks. So far, this is my favorite version of the trinity.
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If you refer to slow as CC then Gw2 has CC too. Because every class has some sort of cripple, chill and/or immobilize. There is also knockback, knockdown, stun/daze and its all viable with the right build
And lets not forget about the blind, which disables your opponent's damage
+1
My opinion is my own. I respect all other opinions and views equally, but keep in mind that my opinion will always be the best for me. That's why it's my opinion.
Yes slow is a CC as it's a method of control. Never said GW2 didn't have CC, just that GW2 is prone to the zerg whereas you won't succeed in ESO via zerging because the tank has to take *most* of the damage and dps has to help CC in various ways (stun, root, slow, increase team defenses, etc).
You can't do everything well, you have to pick a role and supplement it with some utility. And I know you're using "casual" as a dirty word, but that's okay, I'd say ESO is a great game for casual players too.
Unabashedly false. They can do both by the time they hit the first set of dungeons. However, ESO doesn't pull it's punches and you will quickly know if you have a tank that knows what they're doing vs a guy standing around wondering why all the mobs are running around. There's 2 hard taunts, but they've taken aggro back to when you have to wait a few seconds before opening up dps, let the tank lay down an aoe and then start up. "Mash da buttonz!" is not the DPS playstyle in ESO.I think what happens is that damage itself produces practically zero aggro. Healing on the other hand produces a massive amount of it.
3 DPS + healer doesn't seem to work, since the aggro goes straight to the healer the second he casts one group healing spell.
That's not true.
DK's make really good tanks because they have high AoE damage which allows them to hold aggro well, if they know what they are doing. If they don't then you have mobs running all over the place.
I've noticed people coming from other games where you can just spank and tank seem to be having problems. If your tank stands in the red without a cooldown he is going to take lots of damage. This will make a healer go oom quickly.
The difference between a group that gets it and one that doesn't is huge. This is all very low level. Things are only going to get harder especially once people hit VR content.
Zerging isn't a problem of core class design. I hate having to repeatedly say this, but zerging happens in ALL multiplayer games. It's one of the most basic and effective strategies of mankind, and has been used for at least as long as we've had written language.
Where GW2 screwed up, was on it over-imposing AoE caps on abilities, over-nerfing siege, and overly-simplistic boss coding. There's a few bosses in that game, where you can tell they were trying to program them to combat general zerg tactics. Some attempts worked, some didn't.
As for ESO, it's kinda hard to say (as this subject seems to be a lot more subjective than it should be). ESO has a mix of a 'soft-trinity' and an actual one. I think that's kind of a mark of its system working.
However, in dungeons you can absolutely specialize (tank, healer, dps) or you can hybridize and achieve more elaborate results. They've made it a little harder to specialize; by nerfing resource management a bit, as well as converting some support skills from stamina to magicka based. However it can still be done with some careful tweaks & gear management.
This fellow has no idea what he is talking about. I am a 37 Dragon Knight tank, and I can hold aggro without even using taunting abilities. But I do use puncture on bosses (sword and board skill) , which holds aggro just fine. I have tanked the three sets of instances up to my level and had a freaking BLAST doing it. This system is 100x better than the Guild Wars 2 style. I know I tried to tank in GW2 with my 80 Guardian, it was terrible.
This game nailed pretty much everything, cept maybe the server issues, hopefully my 37 dk is still there when the servers come up today (4/2/2014).
Menacer
Unfortunately, I have to agree with Menacerx...
Healing a dungeon group yesterday, I was constantly running to avoid mobs (in effect, kiting to heal) because the DPS guys didn't generate much aggro and the tank didn't hold aggro at all.
Obviously, I don't know his build; however, he had to leave before the very end of the dungeon and a new tank showed up... and he had the same problem. Well, I did get some damn nice drops from the exercise (really nice healing staff and leggings); I'm not going to complain about ESO's loot...
On my own tank character (DK), I haven't found any really effective way of holding aggro, either. Maybe I'll try puncture, if that works.
EDIT: Typo
As anybody done dungeons yet? There's where you can analyse the grouping mechanics better. Open world bosses are almost always zergs, which is fine, since that's the point.
From the videos i've seen, it's still the same mechanics we've had for years. Boss as some aoe abilities, some add spawning and focuses on the tank the whole time. But i don't think dungeons where designed to be the game's selling point.
Anyway, atleast the progression system should allow any class to find a viable build for PVP. That's what i personally care for.
i only did the first instanced dungeon on one of the factions (dungeons seem to vary per faction, or at least the first one) and based on my short experience on that dungeon i noticed similarities with GW2 (which i liked) but with a bit more healing since the resto staff has a healing set of skills. Tanking was out of the question since anyone could get the aggro easily so there was no "dedicated" tank. EDIT: i did that in beta
I love it. It's just the right dynamic for dungeons. I'm having a blast with my staff heals sorcerer. At least, so far at lower levels.
Heals do draw lots of agro, that's why CC, block, and spell interrupt are so crucial. Most players haven't figured this out yet. People need to learn they can't just tank n spank their way through dungeons. It's amazes how many players don't know how to block, spell-interrupt, and counter. I guess they didn't pay attention to the tutorial.
The combat system, much like everything else in ESO, gives a veil of "difficulty" by being quite restrictive and very slow paced.
Personally I think it has one of the worst combat systems of any themepark MMO I have played, including GW2, WoW, Rift, Aeon, Warhammer Online, STO, etc, etc, so on and so forth. The phrase "jack of all trades, master of none" certainly comes to mind when describing this game.
That isn't to say I can't see why people would enjoy it. If you are enjoying it, carry on!
What abilities and morphs are you using?
So far I've had one really amazing tank who just had everything stick to them (was a DK with 1h+shield) and one very good templar tank with a Fire Staff. And . . . many many bad tanks who could hold 1 maybe 2 mobs and/or kept dying constantly.
As for DPS not getting aggro, I definitely do not have that problem, I get aggro quite easily and usually let the tank get a lead on my for a few seconds before going ham.
What's your build w/ morphs?
It's extremely well done and as many others have said, what GW2 was trying to do but never quite managed. Healing dungeons in this is a lot of fun. It's nice to see some of the responsibility for staying alive taken off the healer's shoulders and put on everyone else's as it should be.
We are there to heal what you couldn't mitigate. But you must mitigate because we can't heal through all the pain you'll take if you insist on not blocking or getting out of the way.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I think you are trying to get a response out of a player who first probably don't know what morph abilities are and two didn't take the time to study anything concerning this game before it came out. If these tanks are running in without Draconic Power line then they are not tanks they are just dps posing as tanks. I am running most of the Draconic Power line myself with: Ferocious Leap for the spell resistance, Razor Armor for the damage reduction, Choking Talons to reduce the damage from effected mobs. And in the Class I am using Ransake out of the sword and shield for the increase in armor.
I will say this: it is the beginning of a new game and everyone is at that learning stage so maybe these tanks are just giving it a whirl to see how they do and what changes they can make to better themselves. Well at least I hope
Cool, but didn't you have a tank, was it just plain hard to get and hold aggro? If it's the latter, it doesn't sound good. But maybe 3 dps and 1 healer was enough.
As in most MMOs, when you're level 12-15 and do the first set of dungeons, you don't have a full toolbox.
Thankfully the resto staff abilities you need for healing are all easily obtained early. But even so, your magicka use reductions and regeneration are nothing like what they will be later on when you gear up and get some of the higher tier abilities.
My sorc is 19 now and I have managed to get enough trinkets to stack magicka cost reduction, morphed some abilities to return magicka, etc. I can heal for one heck of a lot longer now than I could at level 12.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I don't recall the specific names of the skills; I'm playing that Templar as my main with three alts (one in each class) so I can cover all the crafting skills the way I want to. Remembering the key sequences is bad enough, much less the skill names.
I had only one DPS skill slotted; I had the first two restoration staff skills slotted (both morphed), the first two Templar class healing skills slotted (both morphed); the Templar class healing ultimate (morphed); and passives to increase the amount of healing. A full healing build...
The only DPS I did was from my staff and not even the "heavy" hit -- except when all the other players died and I was fighting to kill the one mob left; that was a riot, the healer trying to finish the fight -- although it did have a +fire enchantment (all of 7 damage, IIRC). I swapped that out for a blue healing staff I got as a drop midway through the fight.
We cleared the dungeon, but we had three wipes. Once I was the last man standing; the other times I got "mugged" by the mobs.
EDIT: Typo