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Incoming AoE caps and why they're terrible (PTS)
kaiser3282
Member UncommonPosts: 2,759
Edit: Had to add this since certain people seem to have an issue understanding this: The issue is NOT the nerfing of AoEs. Some of them do need a nerf. The issue is the method in which it is being done.
Wel, it looks like ZOS is implementing blanket nerfs to AoEs on the PTS and planning on bringing it to live in the 1.1 patch. The patch notes for the current PTS (found here: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/87867/patch-notes-v-1-1-inc-craglorn-from-pts/p1) have it worded like this :
"Fixed an issue with several area-of-effect abilities where they could erroneously hit an unlimited number of targets."
Well, the message isn't all that clear, and also does nothing to point out the various issues caused by such changes. It was explained pretty well here: http://tamrielfoundry.com/2014/04/eso-target-caps/
"Before I analyze the effects of this change, allow me to translate this into plain English so everyone understands the issue.
Added target caps to most area-of-effect abilities to limit the number of enemies which they can affect.
What this means is that abilities like Impulse, Whirlwind, Lightning Splash, Volley, as well as ultimates like Nova and Dragonknight Standard are capped at affecting a maximum of 6 targets. I’ll start with the TL;DR of this change for people who don’t want to suffer through walls of text. I’ll then go into each point in-depth.
- The way this change is worded in the patch notes is underhanded. This change implies that the scope of AoE abilities which previously existed in the game was not intended and was a bug which required “fixing”.
- This will seriously cripple the ability of coordinated players to fight larger groups of players when outnumbered.
- This will greatly increase the “safety of the zerg”, further promoting zerging as the default tactic in PvP.
- This greatly increases the relative effectiveness of siege weapons, pushing Cyrodiil further towards siege vs. siege rather than player vs. player gameplay.
- This change damages immersion, seeing AoE attacks inexplicably failing to damage enemies which surround the player.
In short, this change is really bad for the game. If you already believe, let ZeniMax know why this is terrible. If you don’t believe me yet, please read on for mode in-depth discussion."
Thats was taken from the Tamriel Foundry discussion on the issue, and this is my own take on it / explanation of it:
This sort of blanket nerf is not a good thing at all. It's somewhat of a knee-jerk reaction to some specific AoEs being considered very powerful, and the way they are handling it is a huge mistake. You can look at games like Warhammer where they made similar game wide changes, and the terrible results. In Warhammer there were issues with specific skills & classes being overwhelmingly powerful at destroying large groups of enemies with AoEs. What did Mythic do? Applied global nerfs to all AoEs rather than looking at individual skills & classes and tweaking as needed. All this did was cause the classes which already had very little AoE capability to now have almost 0 AoE effectiveness, and the same classes which were amazing at AOEing were still 5x better than the rest at it. Gimping everyone doesnt change the balance of power, the ratios remain the same and underpowered classes still remain underpowered.
Unfortunately ZOS seems to be taking a similar approach. Rather than analyzing skills and classes an individual basis and adjusting the damage capabilities, buffs acquired by, resource costs, etc of powerful AoE abilities, they are just putting a limit on all of them. This puts a limit on not only the most powerful abilities, but also the weaker abilities, which in turn means that the weak ones are now made even weaker and the powerful ones while made weaker are still twice as powerful as the others. Just like what they did with WAR.
On top of the overall power ratio of the weak vs strong AoE abilities not changing, this sort of nerf throws a huge wrench in the mechanics of siege warfare and the ability of smaller groups to put up any sort of remotely effective strategy against the zergs. A small group can no longer ambush a large force at a choke point and wipe them out by making better use of their AoEs. If your in a group of 6 and 20 guys are rushing through the keep door, you cant even hit all of them. You'll only hit 6 and the rest will remain untouched leaving 14 full health players to come at you with no risk to themselves. Hell, all they need to do is send in 6 "tanky" players 1st to absorb all of the AoE damage while healers (who will then be untouched by your AoEs due to the limit) move right in and keep them alive and everyone else just charges through the AoEs without getting hit. Meanwhile their AoEs will hit all 6 of you.
Thats on a fairly small scale. It's even worse in much larger battles. 100 people come charging through a keep door, the defenders pop off some AoEs, but only 6 of the attackers get hit. Which 6? Is it going to just randomly hit 6 players with each cast, not allowing you to focus down specific groups of targets? Will you just put a scratch in the HP of 6 people, only to have the next cast of the same skill scratch another 6 instead of continuing to damage the initial group of 6? What about all the rest? It's just normal for a massive group of people to charge through giant walls of flame and be untouched because "Hey 6 other guys touched the fire before me, that makes the fire do nothing to me"?
To me and a lot of other folks, especially those who prefer to fight in smaller elite groups vs the zergs, this is going to be a huge issue if implemented onto the live server. The game will instantly become about who has more people, with the group who has more not needing to worry at all about charging en masse through choke points full of AoEs because most of them won't even get hit by them anyway.
If you agree, please let ZOS know, and demand that they analyze individual skills and make tweaks to them rather than applying blanket nerfs which impact lots of skills and change the entire mechanics of PvP and siege warfare.
TLDR: Blanket nerfs are terrible and impact abilities which dont need a nerf. Implementing a 6 target cap to AoEs completely screws over smaller forces and instantly turns the game into who has the bigger zerg rather than allowing a smaller, but better prepared force who utilizes choke points & terrain with AoE use effectively to have a chance. Think: if the movie 300 revolved around the Spartans only being able to kill 6 Persians at a time instead of taking down waves of enemies because everyone besides those 6 was magically immune to their attacks.
Update: There is also currently a poll being held on the forums regarding this. Poll can be found here: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/88049/do-you-think-there-should-be-an-aoe-cap/p1
I think the numbers there kind of speak for themseves. At the time of this edit, 91% against it, 9% for it out of over 1200 votes.
Comments
Wise words, however knowing the MMO crowd these days nahhh.
I saw what this sort of thing did in GW2.
larger groups have an advantage as it is, a mechanic like this only amplifies that advantage. There is no other way it can play out.
Easily one of the worst things about GW2, now possibly coming to ESO.
But maybe not. We can hope not.
Good to know Zenimax is trying to address the AOE problem in PVP. Capping it to 6 however doesn't seem to be the right solution.
Lowering the overall damage of AOE's substantially could be the solution.
I see people running around spamming their aoe's at single targets and being very effective at it, that's not how AOE's should be effective. AOE's should only be powerful in combination with other people doing AOE aswell.
The sum of all parts should make the group powerful when AOE is needed. They would still be able to knock anyone on their asses if they approach their deadzone unprepared. It just wouldn't be as ridiculous as it is right now, brainless one button spamming.
Lowering its damage could also promote people to stop spamming that button if the entire group isn't coordenated to spam it at the same time as you. Therefore people would actually have to, god forbid, somtimes aim their abilities and engage in man-to-man skirmishes aswell.
Doesn't say much for the "balance testing" they did pre-launch. A bug you say: OK doesn't say much about the beta testing - especially as aoe is a pretty fundamental mechanic.
Or maybe it is simply down to levelling speed - this is a quest game I tell you!
Yes, changing things like the damage done, increasing the cost of casting, etc would be better alternatives. Simply limiting how many people can be hit by all of these AoEs just turns it into a numbers game. Once the enemy group reaches X number of enemies, you cant hit several of them, and gives them a huge advantage rather than making AoEs more effective vs larger groups.
It especially causes coordination issues as well with the use of AoEs. Lets say there 12 enemies grouped up coming through a doorway, and you and another person hitting them with AoEs. Normally, both of you would do contribute to bringing down all 12 of them, but what happens when your AoE hits 6 of them, and the other person's AoE hits 6 different people? Makes it pretty useless.
If this system is implemented, it removes the whole tactical side of trying to force your enemies into a choke point, and the wiser groups avoiding the choke points because of the potential of being wiped by mass AoEs. Instead it become "Choke point? Who cares. Only 6 of us will get hit, the rest will push right through."
Oh noes....my AoE got nerfed:
* I cant kill 30 players anymore in only some seconds with just 2-3 friends
check out this video and tell me that this was alright - this was just broken:
http://www.twitch.tv/prydatv/c/4079857
Actually good decision trying to adjust the AoE problem in PvP, it was too easy.
Kind of reminds me of what happened with guild wars 2 WvWvW.
Everyone already know how that turned out.
Don't make that same mistake ZOS.
so basically the one thing my character is usefull in pvp is going to be taken away with the patch? I sacrificed my range and survivability to excell in defending the keep inside...
Honestly, after strugling the +40 content with bug ridden content ( honestly, atleast once in every 30 mins my progress was stopped) I kept telling myself to have patience. But now. fuck off. really just fuck off. I'm gonna wait now from 2 to 6 months before adding sub to the game. And if it keeps this track record, no sub at all.
I been one of those who been on Zenimax's side but now im gonna take neutral stand and just wait.
mmorpg.com, the 4chan of mmo forums.
It's not as it demands a whole lot of skill to dish out AOE to the masses and kill all. Now a good group really needs to work together with assist etc if they want to beat higher numbers. And if the enemies are too many, well I guess then you will get killed. I have seen posts on different forums saying that now people will quit. To be honest I think there is nothing sadder for a player than to lose to smaller numbers just because of AoE. Now I know you will say they will have to learn how to play but that is not what I mean. I mean that I think if we keep the no AOE cap then more will quit than if they dont.
In Warhammer it was pretty viable to kill large groups with a sorcerer/brighwizard or two and a group that worked together. And in that game there was a cap to the total number of enemies hit. I remember that I sometimes felt bad when our small group of 5-6 went in destroyed a whole battlegroup because they were clustered together.
Good groups will find a way to win even with this change. People that wan't easy mode will quit.
Actually reading the change helps a bit. The problem isn't AoEs getting nerfed, its the way theyre going about it. Applying blanket nerfs to AoEs in general, NOT just the overpowered ones, and applying them in a way (by limiting number of people that get hit, rather than something like reducing the power of AoEs) that only gives larger forces an even bigger advantage and severely gimps the ability of smaller forces to be effective.
You're right, not only will you not be able to kill 30 players, but you will not even do a single bit of damage to 24 of those players even though they all stood right in your AoE.
I'm actually not even an AoE build myself, I'm a Nightblade Bow user focused on high single target damage for dropping selected targets with ease. I dont even have an AoE slotted on my bars most of the time.
But I have seen this sort of change happen in other games, and it is never good. ZOS doesn't seem to have picked up on that.
Lol, how pathetic, and the OP has the nerve to talk about him and his "elite" group. There's nothing "elite" about spamming aoe. I mean I can understand how some people might find shooting ducks in a barrel fun but trying to say it takes skill is a bit much.
That's kind of the thing. It was their own bad for staying clustered together. It was a stupid move on their part. Now, it will be a good idea to stay clustered together because only 6 will get hit and the rest will take 0 damage. Meanwhile your group of 5-6 will all take full damage from all of their AoEs.
At the very least, it should be something more along the lines of full damage to X number of targets and then diminishing returns (like 50%) on any extra enemies. Not just a hard cap of 6 targets, making people completely immune to AoEs.
If a giant fireball erupts in the middle of a group of people, it should have at least some effect on everyone in it's radius, not only a few of them.
You really know absolutely nothing about strategy and tactics do you? You realize the large group can spam those same AoEs right? It's not some skill that is magically granted only to the small group and taken away from the large group. It's the large groups own stupidity, grouping up tight and charging through together, being turned against them. A change like this though gives even more advantage to a larger group.
Do you even understand the basic concept of what is being changed with these skills? It's not a change in killing power to AoEs to make them less powerful. They're just as strong as before, as long as it is only 6 people you're fighting. It is a hard limit to the number of enemies that can be hit. More people on your side = a larger % of your group taking no damage whatsoever.
If a group of 6 goes up against a group of 7 all tossing AoEs at eachother, that group of 7 automatically has the advantage of 1 of their members being at full health even though they are standing right in the AoEs along with everyone else. Does that sound even remotely logical or fair?
It completely removes the standard of "Spread out they're bombing us with AoEs" to "Everyone stand together so most of us dont get hit by these big ass explosions".
Ever see a bomb go off or a grenade tossed into a group of enemies clustered together? Do you think they say "Quick everyone get closer to the grenade. It will only hit a few of us". Or better yet, if 2 grenades get tossed into a group, do you think the smart thing to do is make sure everyone is in range of both explosions because "Hey, theyre only going to hit the same 6 guys twice. The rest of us won't get a scratch on us". When's the last time you ever heard of people yelling to get more people in the foxhole with a grenade in it instead of getting out before you all get blown to shit?
Sounds a bit ridiculous huh? But yet this is what you're supporting.
You will always find smaller scale pvp in cyrodiil and I cant agree that it is alright that 2-3 players can kill 30 enemies in just plain 3 seconds.
A small group should not have the power to switch out the light of so many opponents in just a finger snip, doesnt matter if zerg or not.
The cap to 6 units means that you can still take out a lot of players with just a handfull players, but it is not unlimited which was just broken.
I understand completely, you want to pretend you're elite by shooting ducks in a barrel.
Seriously this. AOE are suppose to hit multiple targets, but you counter-balance it but reducing the dmg output. GW2 already had issue in WVW's design, just like ESO does, but an aoe cap is just another stupid design move.
A fine example of reading comprehension at work. You also must have missed the post where I don't even use AoE with my build. But the issue not applying directly to me does not stop me from being able to recognize an issue and force me to just shut my eyes and pretend it doesnt exist.
@spizz: Once again, nobody is arguing that some of the AOEs dont need to be toned down. I agree some of them do. But what ZOS needs to do is look at the individual skills, not apply the same widespread nerf to them all just because "AoEs are too strong". Theyre not. Only certain ones are. Blanket nerfs / buffs are a huge no-no in the world of balancing skills / classes.
The toning down also needs to be done through other means. Make them do less damage per hit, cost more to cast, smaller radius, shorter durations, diminishing returns. That sort of stuff. Not "6 people already got hit by this giant wall of flame that is still there. Nobody else can get hit now".
I can't remember but doesn't EQ2 AoE generally say it will effect upto x enemies? AoE description's in mmo's tend to have limits written into them so you can only hit a certain amount of targets.
CoH i had a Fire/Ice tank which 'used' to be able to run around, gather everyone up, get them in one place and burn the mothers .. ofc they changed the skills eventually to stop that.
Blanket changes on AoE's though isn't good as then single target builds will probably be seen as OP and people will cry for them to be nerfed. And so the cycle will begin :-(
Correct, and the same applies to certain abilities in ESO. Both attack and heal skills. Several AoEs dont even hit 6 targets. Perfect example would be the 2h melee AoE passive that causes splash damage to 2 nearby targets, not all targets.
However, the skills that this is being applied to never had that effect nor description, and they are playing it off as "Oh it's a bug. It was supposed to only hit 6 people" even though that is not the case. It is simply a method for them to nerf a certain set of AoEs, with no consideration for the actual power of the skills themselves.
There are some AoEs out there that do about as much damage as some of the more powerful single target skills. This "fix" doesn't stop them from being able to kill multiple targets as quickly as a single target build. But by applying it to some skills which are not that powerful, rather than toning down the ones that are, it does nothing to solve the actual problem of powerful AoEs and only gimps the weaker ones hit by this change even further.
After the patch builds will change.
And then archers will be nerfed - again some might say!
And round and round it will go.
Balance testing should have been done pre-launch - and then left to the players.