I have been a GM in a MMO before. And i can say for a fact that most people only think about what they can get out of the system be it right or wrong..
This is especially true if people lose something valuable because they were stupid.
Seriously, god damn pot smokers and console gamers are ruining the MMORPG genre. If you smoke pot or play console games you shouldn't even be allowed anywhere near an MMORPG. They're the reason WoW ruined, SWOTOR went f2p and how ESO has so many haters on every forum I've been too. All because of the console gamers/pot smokers.
GG go back to your console games damn druggys.
I think part of the negative vibe derives from the disappointing transition from a very good single player IP to a sub average mmorpg and the unfortunate fact that it will take years (if ever) to see another single player game in the same IP.
Seriously though, just remove the IP from ESO and what's left exactly?
Last week MMO websites lit up with news of The Elder Scrolls Online's economy-killing item dupe exploit. This bug/loophole allowed players to infinitely duplicate inventory items and then sell them, thus earning endless piles of illegal gold. Naturally, this had devastating effects on the game's auction house, community, and possibly the longevity of the game. Still, there are players out there who think using exploits is OK, and that publishers shouldn't punish players for using them. Their argument boils down to, “What's the big deal? It's just a game.” Well I'd beg to differ.
I really like the idea of peer jury system. Games need some sort of police.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
I honestly think that all these game companies need to stop being so cheap and hire their own experienced Q&A and then drop all the Alpha / Close Beta / Open Beta crap, develop your game, test your game to the fullest for any bugs/exploits and then release a finished game for us. Im sick and tired of getting these half ass broken games.
Unfortunately this has nothing to do with QA. Generally speaking, the majority of QA testers do NOT have enough experience or know-how to exploit a system. Especially game testers. It's a supply and demand issue. There is a ton of people wanting to test games. You can pay them crap money and they'll stick around until they have enough experience to move onto something more financially beneficial to them. The game industry chews up and spits out testers. Well, it does the same to developers for that matter. You'd probably make more money working at McDonald's than the average video game tester (for real). It doesn't really matter, though because this isn't a problem you can just throw people at. It's like the million monkeys analogy. Actually, you could say that given enough time a million monkeys and a million computers could find every exploit in a game. But how long is a piece of rope?
Exploits are things that SHOULD be found in Beta testing. The problem is that Beta testing now means "Find exploits and wait for release to use them" opposed to actually providing feedback to development staff. This is probably one of the contributing factors to the transformation of Beta to what it is now, too. There was a time when you actually got PAID to do beta testing. It was grand! Unfortunately, now, MMOs have somehow become ultra competitive. Exclusive achievements, etc. are increasing the pressure to be "first" and guilds who actually DO get "famous". So Betas and PTRs are like virtual training grounds where they find the quickest way from point A to B. These are actually the people who you want in your beta (and they still get into the betas, so the vetting process works). The issue is that you just don't know what they're going to report and what they're not. If it prevents progression, it'll probably get reported. If it's an exploit, it probably won't.
All you "goodie goodie we never cheat at anything folks" make me laugh.
Lets make a list of daily real life exploits shall we.......
Steal any minutes from your employer lately? Back from lunch late? Stop at Bob's cube for a 5 minute chat? Take something from the office fridge that wasn't yours? Chat with Mary for 10 minutes while on the clock? Stop for a coffee in the company vehicle? Run a red light? Use your blinker? Pay the parking meter? Take a handful of napkins when you only need 2? Cut in line?
Lets look at sports........
Use roids? Do a shifty move out of the eyesight of a ref? Use pine tar on a baseball? Cheap shot tackle? Push? Shove? Trash talk to get into another players mind? How about taking a liter of blood and leaving it exposed to air so it becomes super oxygenated?
If "it's just a game", then the response from the publishers, regardless of what it is shouldn't matter, because "it's just a game".
Anyway, here's an article from Psychology Today that gets into why people lie, cheat and steal in the first place. See if you can pick out how this leads to people excusing exploits!
1) Reinforcement - people start with little lies or little cheats and don't get caught, so it reinforces the idea that cheating is OK or that they won't get caught.
2) Memory Distortion - if you tell a lie, there's a chance that you'll start to believe it if you don't cross check your lie against reliable information. It becomes part of your history, rather than a story you told.
3) Protection of our positive self image - People want to believe they are honest, upstanding, etc., so they'll jump through all sorts of mental hoops to be able to believe this.
4) Self serving biases - we evaluate ourselves with a different set of rules than we evaluate other people. If we do something wrong, it's because of the environment. If someone else does something wrong, it's because they are bad people.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I honestly think that all these game companies need to stop being so cheap and hire their own experienced Q&A and then drop all the Alpha / Close Beta / Open Beta crap, develop your game, test your game to the fullest for any bugs/exploits and then release a finished game for us. Im sick and tired of getting these half ass broken games.
Then you have never made a game, they would never ever make money if they did that, I KNOW I been in the industry for over 20 years, you need testers and people as players doing it, they have there own q and A but you can't find them all, to many computers out there and new hardware all the time to keep up...
So having players do it to, is the best way, this is another reason why companies aren't making MMO's anymore... Gamers don't test like they used to back in the day most just play it and whine, and don't report.
I been a paid tester, and now gamer , DEV, so I seen a lot in games and from gamers, I see people say I'm not reporting that they devs should find it!! Really??
Originally posted by Crusades I still feel it's all on the shoulders of development. Yes players can and should report, but development is who needs to handle it. Folks need to understand today's business model is not about quality. Investment has figured out you can sell gamers anything, it doesn't need to be quality. What the product needs to be islow ooverhead, quick return, investment gets what it gets. Consumers get what they get too and that could mean a half assed game because talent and resources were scarce as development is asked to do more with less. Ever hear " they don't make it like they used to" ?
Coming from someone who has never made a game as well... You have no idea the hard work that us devs go through at all, games are way harder to make then back in the day ....Make a easy flash game and then come say those same things.
I love reading comments from people who never made a game before and make themselves look silly...
When one starts an article off with a phrase like "The ESO debacle" generally the next couple of sentences should focus on what that is to bring your readers up to speed. Depending on the author and readers' points of views, so many diferent things could be considered a debacle about most MMO launches these days. As I am largely unfamiliar with this week's topic, most of the article seemed to spin in circles.
If you get caught exploiting a bug, then it is not the fault of the developer but your very own. I always find it quite amusing to see postings of players stating that they were banned
I completely disagree with this. If the developers made a mistake in the game and players are able to exploit a horribly designed mechanic then the fault lies with the developer not the player. Players will find a flaw if there is a flaw and punishing a player for capitlizing on that is just deflecting blame and pointing fingers saying how dare you find our fuck up, we should ban you for finding stuff out we need to fix and drawing attention to our horrible coding. Just fix it and move on as fast as possible.
So, you leave the house and forget to lock all your windows.
You come home to find the window wide open and your house trashed and emptied of all valuables.
By your logic, the robber's not accountable because, hey... you left your window open. It's your own fault they took your stuff. Robbers will find a house left unprotected/unsecured and capitalize on that. Trying to hold them responsible is just deflecting the blame and pointing fingers saying "how dare you rob my house".
I mean, you left your window open, so how did they know you didn't want them helping themselves to your stuff. It's your fault for not keeping the window open. They were just taking advantage of your generosity.
If you get caught exploiting a bug, then it is not the fault of the developer but your very own. I always find it quite amusing to see postings of players stating that they were banned
I completely disagree with this. If the developers made a mistake in the game and players are able to exploit a horribly designed mechanic then the fault lies with the developer not the player. Players will find a flaw if there is a flaw and punishing a player for capitlizing on that is just deflecting blame and pointing fingers saying how dare you find our fuck up, we should ban you for finding stuff out we need to fix and drawing attention to our horrible coding. Just fix it and move on as fast as possible.
So, you leave the house and forget to lock all your windows.
You come home to find the window wide open and your house trashed and emptied of all valuables.
By your logic, the robber's not accountable because, hey... you left your window open. It's your own fault they took your stuff. Robbers will find a house left unprotected/unsecured and capitalize on that. Trying to hold them responsible is just deflecting the blame and pointing fingers saying "how dare you rob my house".
I mean, you left your window open, so how did they know you didn't want them helping themselves to your stuff. It's your fault for not keeping the window open. They were just taking advantage of your generosity.
Right?
I didn't write code to protect my house from robbers. Another poster in this thread said it better anyways.
Four0Six Wrote:
All you "goodie goodie we never cheat at anything folks" make me laugh.
Lets make a list of daily real life exploits shall we.......
Steal any minutes from your employer lately? Back from lunch late? Stop at Bob's cube for a 5 minute chat? Take something from the office fridge that wasn't yours? Chat with Mary for 10 minutes while on the clock? Stop for a coffee in the company vehicle? Run a red light? Use your blinker? Pay the parking meter? Take a handful of napkins when you only need 2? Cut in line?
Lets look at sports........
Use roids? Do a shifty move out of the eyesight of a ref? Use pine tar on a baseball? Cheap shot tackle? Push? Shove? Trash talk to get into another players mind? How about taking a liter of blood and leaving it exposed to air so it becomes super oxygenated?
I am not sure all this moralising is helpful. Its preaching to the converted i very much doubt anyone who is cheating is going to read this and stop.
As an individual I hate being cheated, I hate having my gaming experience negatively effected. I like to think of myself as a considerate player. But:
Firstly exploiting isn't black and white, Duping is obviously an exploit, but how about LoS a bosses attacks?, or splitting a boss away from his adds in a raid, not nearly as clear is it? I have yet to see a clear definition of exploiting that allows the player to 100% ascertain if an activity is an exploit or not in all cases without further clarification.
Secondly assigning blame for exploiting and its affects along the lines of developer vs individual deflects our attention from a more important question. Who's responsibility is to maintain the integrity of the game?
The answer has to be the developer.
Not sure who said but I remember the line:"anything that isn't illegal is just business". This holds true of mmorpgs and cheating isn't illegal so developers can't look to somebody else to protect their product from this. They create their own rules but they need to police and enforce those rules to protect their product.
As consumers we need to put aside our anger about exploiters and be saying to developers part of a quality product is a strong enforcement team from day 1, we hold you responsible for providing that!
I have to play devil's advocate, because although the author's point is clear (cheating is bad, mmmm k), some of his comments are illogical.
If this is a "collective" experience, much as life, then, yes, there are cheaters. Are you telling me that in your own life experience you've not encountered cheaters or cheated in something yourself. I mean, let's get mundane about it: are you the guy that waits patiently in line behind 100 cars to get off that exit during rush hour, or are you the dude who whittles his way in the middle lane to JUST before the exit to skip the line?
I am not saying cheating is cool, but we all do it in our lives. If you don't, well, welcome Jesus, we've been waiting a while for you to deal with all the other people who cheat.
It is a game. And you can damn well bet that if I find an exploit, since I can't "cheat" in real life (stealing money = jail), I will exploit.
So, again, playing devil's advocate, these publisher's need to up their "game" (pun intended).
And let me tackle gold farming as a devil's advocate. In-game currency is NOT real money (nor the functioning digital equivalent like your debit card or bitcoin). I cannot spend it anywhere else but in the game I bought it for. So, I will buy gold (going on that "taking advantage" feeling you all have). You know why? Because in real life I would not pay real money to buy counterfit money (which I would then go and spend buying a new game at WalMart). Well, because that's illegal (the jail thing again). But in the game, well, I just get banned.
True story (just to show how slimy publisher's are themselves, not that there's anything wrong with that): I bought gold using real $USD to play with in Age of Wushu. I got caught (first of at least 10 games I did the same with, although Eve Online doesn't count because they let you buy a card to trade for in-game currency). My account was banned. I put in a ticket to customer support. Long story short, they let me buy gold from THEIR website and un-banned my account (the amount was equivalent to what I bought from the gold seller). And mind you, I did NOT write in to customer support saying I didn't know, or some other such poop. I got the idea from reading the forums where everyone else was claiming they didn't do it or didn't know and someone said you can "buy my guilt" (meaning, pay to fix the problem).
The point of all this devil's advocacy: The solution lies within the Age of Wushu story. Let players buy gold direct from the publisher for their game (cha-ching, Publishers!). Anyone who buys gold from gold sellers gets a ban, and has to PAY their way back in by buying from the publisher the amount they purchased illegitimately (again, it's a game, it's not illegal under any law). If it's cheaper to get the game again (if not F2P), isn't it still a win-win for the Publisher (getting more sales of the product). BAM, problem (mostly) solved.
Comments
I agree. People are scum..
I have been a GM in a MMO before. And i can say for a fact that most people only think about what they can get out of the system be it right or wrong..
This is especially true if people lose something valuable because they were stupid.
I think part of the negative vibe derives from the disappointing transition from a very good single player IP to a sub average mmorpg and the unfortunate fact that it will take years (if ever) to see another single player game in the same IP.
Seriously though, just remove the IP from ESO and what's left exactly?
Twitter
...I'm guessing you haven't actually played the game... have you?
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Unfortunately this has nothing to do with QA. Generally speaking, the majority of QA testers do NOT have enough experience or know-how to exploit a system. Especially game testers. It's a supply and demand issue. There is a ton of people wanting to test games. You can pay them crap money and they'll stick around until they have enough experience to move onto something more financially beneficial to them. The game industry chews up and spits out testers. Well, it does the same to developers for that matter. You'd probably make more money working at McDonald's than the average video game tester (for real). It doesn't really matter, though because this isn't a problem you can just throw people at. It's like the million monkeys analogy. Actually, you could say that given enough time a million monkeys and a million computers could find every exploit in a game. But how long is a piece of rope?
Exploits are things that SHOULD be found in Beta testing. The problem is that Beta testing now means "Find exploits and wait for release to use them" opposed to actually providing feedback to development staff. This is probably one of the contributing factors to the transformation of Beta to what it is now, too. There was a time when you actually got PAID to do beta testing. It was grand! Unfortunately, now, MMOs have somehow become ultra competitive. Exclusive achievements, etc. are increasing the pressure to be "first" and guilds who actually DO get "famous". So Betas and PTRs are like virtual training grounds where they find the quickest way from point A to B. These are actually the people who you want in your beta (and they still get into the betas, so the vetting process works). The issue is that you just don't know what they're going to report and what they're not. If it prevents progression, it'll probably get reported. If it's an exploit, it probably won't.
Sorry, but gaming communities these days suck.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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All you "goodie goodie we never cheat at anything folks" make me laugh.
Lets make a list of daily real life exploits shall we.......
Steal any minutes from your employer lately? Back from lunch late? Stop at Bob's cube for a 5 minute chat? Take something from the office fridge that wasn't yours? Chat with Mary for 10 minutes while on the clock? Stop for a coffee in the company vehicle? Run a red light? Use your blinker? Pay the parking meter? Take a handful of napkins when you only need 2? Cut in line?
Lets look at sports........
Use roids? Do a shifty move out of the eyesight of a ref? Use pine tar on a baseball? Cheap shot tackle? Push? Shove? Trash talk to get into another players mind? How about taking a liter of blood and leaving it exposed to air so it becomes super oxygenated?
Glass houses folks. Glass houses.
If "it's just a game", then the response from the publishers, regardless of what it is shouldn't matter, because "it's just a game".
Anyway, here's an article from Psychology Today that gets into why people lie, cheat and steal in the first place. See if you can pick out how this leads to people excusing exploits!
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/fulfillment-any-age/201005/excuses-excuses-excuses-why-people-lie-cheat-and-procrastinate
1) Reinforcement - people start with little lies or little cheats and don't get caught, so it reinforces the idea that cheating is OK or that they won't get caught.
2) Memory Distortion - if you tell a lie, there's a chance that you'll start to believe it if you don't cross check your lie against reliable information. It becomes part of your history, rather than a story you told.
3) Protection of our positive self image - People want to believe they are honest, upstanding, etc., so they'll jump through all sorts of mental hoops to be able to believe this.
4) Self serving biases - we evaluate ourselves with a different set of rules than we evaluate other people. If we do something wrong, it's because of the environment. If someone else does something wrong, it's because they are bad people.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Then you have never made a game, they would never ever make money if they did that, I KNOW I been in the industry for over 20 years, you need testers and people as players doing it, they have there own q and A but you can't find them all, to many computers out there and new hardware all the time to keep up...
So having players do it to, is the best way, this is another reason why companies aren't making MMO's anymore... Gamers don't test like they used to back in the day most just play it and whine, and don't report.
I been a paid tester, and now gamer , DEV, so I seen a lot in games and from gamers, I see people say I'm not reporting that they devs should find it!! Really??
Gamers are ruining games to... period.
Coming from someone who has never made a game as well... You have no idea the hard work that us devs go through at all, games are way harder to make then back in the day ....Make a easy flash game and then come say those same things.
I love reading comments from people who never made a game before and make themselves look silly...
So, you leave the house and forget to lock all your windows.
You come home to find the window wide open and your house trashed and emptied of all valuables.
By your logic, the robber's not accountable because, hey... you left your window open. It's your own fault they took your stuff. Robbers will find a house left unprotected/unsecured and capitalize on that. Trying to hold them responsible is just deflecting the blame and pointing fingers saying "how dare you rob my house".
I mean, you left your window open, so how did they know you didn't want them helping themselves to your stuff. It's your fault for not keeping the window open. They were just taking advantage of your generosity.
Right?
I didn't write code to protect my house from robbers. Another poster in this thread said it better anyways.
Four0Six Wrote:
All you "goodie goodie we never cheat at anything folks" make me laugh.
Lets make a list of daily real life exploits shall we.......
Steal any minutes from your employer lately? Back from lunch late? Stop at Bob's cube for a 5 minute chat? Take something from the office fridge that wasn't yours? Chat with Mary for 10 minutes while on the clock? Stop for a coffee in the company vehicle? Run a red light? Use your blinker? Pay the parking meter? Take a handful of napkins when you only need 2? Cut in line?
Lets look at sports........
Use roids? Do a shifty move out of the eyesight of a ref? Use pine tar on a baseball? Cheap shot tackle? Push? Shove? Trash talk to get into another players mind? How about taking a liter of blood and leaving it exposed to air so it becomes super oxygenated?
Glass houses folks. Glass houses.
I am not sure all this moralising is helpful. Its preaching to the converted i very much doubt anyone who is cheating is going to read this and stop.
As an individual I hate being cheated, I hate having my gaming experience negatively effected. I like to think of myself as a considerate player. But:
Firstly exploiting isn't black and white, Duping is obviously an exploit, but how about LoS a bosses attacks?, or splitting a boss away from his adds in a raid, not nearly as clear is it? I have yet to see a clear definition of exploiting that allows the player to 100% ascertain if an activity is an exploit or not in all cases without further clarification.
Secondly assigning blame for exploiting and its affects along the lines of developer vs individual deflects our attention from a more important question. Who's responsibility is to maintain the integrity of the game?
The answer has to be the developer.
Not sure who said but I remember the line:"anything that isn't illegal is just business". This holds true of mmorpgs and cheating isn't illegal so developers can't look to somebody else to protect their product from this. They create their own rules but they need to police and enforce those rules to protect their product.
As consumers we need to put aside our anger about exploiters and be saying to developers part of a quality product is a strong enforcement team from day 1, we hold you responsible for providing that!I have to play devil's advocate, because although the author's point is clear (cheating is bad, mmmm k), some of his comments are illogical.
If this is a "collective" experience, much as life, then, yes, there are cheaters. Are you telling me that in your own life experience you've not encountered cheaters or cheated in something yourself. I mean, let's get mundane about it: are you the guy that waits patiently in line behind 100 cars to get off that exit during rush hour, or are you the dude who whittles his way in the middle lane to JUST before the exit to skip the line?
I am not saying cheating is cool, but we all do it in our lives. If you don't, well, welcome Jesus, we've been waiting a while for you to deal with all the other people who cheat.
It is a game. And you can damn well bet that if I find an exploit, since I can't "cheat" in real life (stealing money = jail), I will exploit.
So, again, playing devil's advocate, these publisher's need to up their "game" (pun intended).
And let me tackle gold farming as a devil's advocate. In-game currency is NOT real money (nor the functioning digital equivalent like your debit card or bitcoin). I cannot spend it anywhere else but in the game I bought it for. So, I will buy gold (going on that "taking advantage" feeling you all have). You know why? Because in real life I would not pay real money to buy counterfit money (which I would then go and spend buying a new game at WalMart). Well, because that's illegal (the jail thing again). But in the game, well, I just get banned.
True story (just to show how slimy publisher's are themselves, not that there's anything wrong with that): I bought gold using real $USD to play with in Age of Wushu. I got caught (first of at least 10 games I did the same with, although Eve Online doesn't count because they let you buy a card to trade for in-game currency). My account was banned. I put in a ticket to customer support. Long story short, they let me buy gold from THEIR website and un-banned my account (the amount was equivalent to what I bought from the gold seller). And mind you, I did NOT write in to customer support saying I didn't know, or some other such poop. I got the idea from reading the forums where everyone else was claiming they didn't do it or didn't know and someone said you can "buy my guilt" (meaning, pay to fix the problem).
The point of all this devil's advocacy: The solution lies within the Age of Wushu story. Let players buy gold direct from the publisher for their game (cha-ching, Publishers!). Anyone who buys gold from gold sellers gets a ban, and has to PAY their way back in by buying from the publisher the amount they purchased illegitimately (again, it's a game, it's not illegal under any law). If it's cheaper to get the game again (if not F2P), isn't it still a win-win for the Publisher (getting more sales of the product). BAM, problem (mostly) solved.
Your welcome.