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The Illusion of Character Building.
Gravarg
Member UncommonPosts: 3,424
I really love this game, and I've played many many hours. However, there is one thing that I've noticed as I'm leveling my second character to VR10. My first character was an Imperial Templar Tank. I really had no problems at all doing any of the quests. I would run upto a boss and just down them, no problems. I probably only died like 5 times outside of group dungeons.
My second character I'm working on is intended to be a dual wielding, "all out dps yo face off" rogue. This is where I've noticed the difference. The game gives you the option to put your skill points wherever you wish to put them. There are problems with this, since as many should know, if you do not have a good healing ability, against bosses you're going to die. This leads to the game forcing you to build a certain way to be able to complete quests and dungeons. Potions are not enough to keep you alive if you do not have a healing spell. I was trying to refrain for a healing ability on my rogue, so I went with one defensive cooldown, Elude. It gives me 22% dodge for 23 seconds, which sounds pretty powerful. It's not, you'll still get your face melted by bosses. It seems like on my rogue, every final boss for a quest is a fight to the last 1% of his life. If a rogue is supposed to be so great at single target combat, then why is it that against a single target boss they have the most problems, but against 3-4 normal mobs, I totally obliterate them one at a time and lose like maybe 10% of my health.
It all comes down to balance, and right now bosses are way out of balanced, and the normal thinking of what a build should be good at are completely backwards.
Comments
Originally posted by laokoko
"if you want to be a game designer, you should sell your house and fund your game. Since if you won't even fund your own game, no one will".
Strangely, I think this is going to become one of my favorite threads.
Balancing skills is going to be something that this game struggles with mightily. At some point, if you like the game, you are just going to have to accept that there will be massive imbalances and you can either adapt as the imbalances change or move on. It's going to be quite the juggling act for them.
I just want to know how you did this. I am so jealous. Seriously.
Thanks for the strategy.
I saw some people farming a boss with lots of adds that just kept spawning without end. I admit I did it for about 20 minutes, but it was boring. Made a lot of gold and xp, though. Some guys from a certain guild which shall remain nameless form large groups and let other players kill the mobs for them while they just afk and soak xp. That might be the one you're talking about, unless there are others.
Where I first noticed the sometimes severe imbalance in classes and builds was against Doshia, a solo boss that has to be fought in each faction's quest line. The other key measuring stick was the boss at the end of the guardian tree quest (I don't remember the name) and its equivalent in the other faction's zones.
I typically create multiple characters simultaneously so I can test out multiple classes at once and distribute crafting requirements. When there are multiple starting locations and races, I distribute my characters between those locations and races so I can (1) experience all there is to experience; (2) find out which class/race/crafting skill will be my main; and (3) understand how best to fight other classes in PvP. Plus it gives more variety to the game and delays the boredom that always sets in after killing one mob after another mob doing the same sorts of quests that are in every game...
Well, the class system in ESO is nothing like REAL Elder Scrolls games; the skill system is nothing like REAL Elder Scrolls games; and BALANCE is a significant issue.
If you don't have a self-healing capability, you're screwed. If you don't have a ranged capability, you're screwed.
Doshia has these lovely little healing balls that periodically float towards her and restore her life; they can also be used to restore PART of the character's life. The problem with that is getting to all four since they come from the four corners of the room (three different dungeon layouts in the three faction zones, but similar contextually) and if you're chasing the balls you're not hurting Doshia and she's still hurting you... PLUS the stupid skill delay inevitably precludes you from hitting the balls when you want/need to and TAB-targeting doesn't "always" work like it should so you're forced to click on the balls to destroy them. You have to have ranged skills and preferably some AoE...
The guardian tree quest (and its counterparts in other faction's areas) puts you in close quarters; you must kite the mob or die... but there's little room to kite it.
IIRC, my heavy armor healing Templar only died three times against Doshia (at level; IIRC it's a level 9 boss). My medium armor siphoning-using archer died six times.
My light armor non-healing Sorceror NEVER could beat Doshia. My heavy armor non-healing Dragonknight builds (four different builds played up to that level) never even came close to beating Doshia; I discarded four builds and finally created a Dragonknight with the skill (can't remember the name) that sucks 30% of life back AND THEN finally beat Doshia AFTER OUT-LEVELING her by six levels.
The guardian tree mob was a similar experience. The Templar beat it at level first time through. The archer beat it first time through. Neither the Sorceror nor the DragonKnight ever beat it.
Which is all fine and well since the Sorceror and Dragonknight have other advantages in other situations. In most games, different classes group to make up for their inadequacies and it is the strength of the group, not the solo character, that is important.
BUT in ESO, there are solo bosses where groups can't be used to complement other classes' skills. It's almost like the left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing during the design process for the game.
As a result, the game will have not only FOTM builds, but also players are put into the mode of "You must have these certain skills on your skill bar to even PvE".
Nightblade's (I assume that's what you're playing) have things like the Siphoning tree for a reason. You can get some good lifeleeching abilities that do great damage and also heal you based on the damage they do.
What you're doing is going with a pure glass cannon build, that doesn't make it a traditional rogue as often rogues do have some form of life leeches. The way youre built is simply how glass cannons work. Its either kill very fast, or die. If youre not able to kill it fast enough, then you need to either increase your dps somehow or offset some of your skills with some form of healing / protection.
It doesnt make bosses "out of balance". Just means either a) you're not strong enough or good enough at playing your build or b) it's a shitty build to begin with (at least for that type of content). Not every build is as good at some things as other builds. Glass cannon may suck for a boss sometimes, but it will get you lots of easy kills in PvP before people can react. Whereas a tanky build means PvP kills are going to be much slower and harder to get.
Different builds for different purposes.
You can skill up multiple weapons and multiple armor sets. You have guild skills and three class lines. So, if you hit encounters where you need different strategies, you....swap in different abilities and, if needed, gear. There is even an addon that lets you hotkey gear sets.
If you hit an encounter where the mobs are immune to crowd control (this is true for many bosses), then you probably don't want to stack stuns in your skills. If there are swarms of adds you need a way to deal area of effect damage. This isn't a problem with the game at all. And all of the classes have the tools that they need. I don't see the problem.
In terms of balance - is there a MMO where they aren't continually tweaking skill and class balance?
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For the specific nightblade case, you have a variety of self-healing skills that become very important in long battles (e.g. leeches and bleeds.) Reapers Mark is great - drop it on an add, kill it, get a full heal. I run a dual wield / bow NB main, and I do need to run a lot of self healing abilities for tough fights. It's a bit less DPS but a lot more survivability.
Which is great at higher levels where you have the skill points to distribute in the build to handle different situations, mixing and matching to fit the situation.
But at level nine (Doshia)? If ZOS was going to set up a situation at that low of a level that only certain builds can handle, then there's a problem... primarily a problem with testing since adequate testing would have caught that sort of balance issue.
Ah, I see your point - that's quite fair. I usually cringe when MMOs adjust the difficulty level down, but in that case I was sympathetic. I really had to wait until level 20+ before I felt that I had the luxury to start spreading my skills around.
Saying someone doesn't know how to play their class or build is not helpful.
Bonus karma points for being a jerk.
Good luck to all that are still playing. Hopefully these things are being looked into by devs.
I can't believe you had these problems on Doshia...... I beat her at lvl 7 dual weild spec NB, and at lvl 7 2h build DK. She was a very easy boss......
Doshia was what taught me that my build was insufficient and had me re-roll when at level 11 I couldn't take her down. Really one of the big things that helps is silver spikes. If you can get fighter's guild level 2 fast then level it up to where it forks and hits three things then Doshia is easy.
Doshia is really harsh on poor mule characters that are levelling to craft as opposed to being pure adventuring characters. Of course you are underpowered with such characters but yes, Doshia is rough for a lot of builds.
Doshia is like the height thing at the beginning of a ride at an amusement park... Your build must be this tight to enter the ride.