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I think that what you want is Permadeath.
akiel123
Member UncommonPosts: 21
And you probably don't, but give me a dozen paragraphs or so to convince you. But first I have to make something clear. I totally agree with you that permadeath will not work in a modern MMORPG, let alone add anything to it. We have to do more than just delete your character after 1 death, to utilize all the potential of permadeath and make a better game. This is vital to understand when creating a game with permadeath. It isn't permadeath itself that is good, it is what it allows you to do.
I'm going to start the party with a couple of statements that may either be right or wrong. If I am totally wrong on all of them, then you should probably leave the thread and find something else to read, if not, then keep reading.
- When you play a game you want to feel something. Feel that you are achieving something and filling some kind of purpose.
- You would like to be THE hero instead of just A hero.
- You enjoy seeing you progress, but even more so when others recognise your progress and strength. After all, nothing is better than t-bagging the enemy player that you just vanquished, amirite?
- The game is good for the ride, but in the end, when all quests are done, mobs slayed and gear obtained, there really is nothing more to do.
- You would like the be the MOST powerful character and totally squash anyone who dared oppose you.
Next I will describe the experience of the average MMORPG for you:
"'Ding!'... ahhh, the sweet sound of leveling. Now you are strong and powerful right? This is what MMORPG's are really about isn't it? That moment when you gain a level and are stronger"... You think this to yourself, and maybe if you think a little more you realise that you are actually just as strong as you were before, because with the level comes the obligation to take on stronger mobs. Mobs that are equally more strong. Not really a thrill is it? But there are other ways to feel the thrill in MMORPG's aren't there? Maybe you get a two second thrill when you win a PvP match or finish off a quest, but that is really as far as it goes. While you walk around killing mob after mob, who all respawns two seconds later in the exact same spot with the exact same skills, you feel nothing. And then when you return two seconds later to do the exact same thing with the exact same outcome, you might realise: Wow... this is crap. However, it is like it has always been, and there is nothing better so you don't give it any afterthought and play on - this is how MMORPG's are supposed to be, right?
You walk around hour after hour doing the quests, saving the queens and kingdoms, and beating the bad guys. Except you don't. Twenty seconds later they respawn and another 'hero' sweeps in and 'saves the day'. They create kingdoms and wars for your entertainment, but in the end it is as if they made you a cake and you thought "Wow, is that cake all for me!?" and then you look around and see that everyone got the exact same cake, and btw, over there is another group who all has a different cake, that looks different but actually tastes the same, and all of a sudden you realise that you actually would rather have pie...
Then, after hours and hours of grinding and doing the quests that millions have done before you, you finally arrive at the top. You are max level and everyone looks to you and thinks: "Wow, he is so cool and I wish I had wasted just as much time as he has on this game already". Oh yeah. I forgot the million others who is also at max level! and who don't give a shit because, in truth everyone can get there. You stop playing and find something else to do, and everybody forgets that you every spend even a single second on that game. There is nothing more to do, and you move on to the next themepark. Lets be honest - your character might aswell have permadied.
This is the destiny of the modern MMORPG character. Kill all the mobs, save all the kingdoms, perish all the nasty-loking-mobs, and aquire all the gear-that-is-way-to-big/skimpy-to-actually-be-practical-but-gives-you-10-instead-of-9-strength-so-why-not. And then stop. Forget it ever happened and waste you time on something else. You are contempt. Don't fix what ain't broken right? No. Not right. Why not go for something better? Here is what an MMORPG experience should look like.
You wake up, sun flashing in your eyes and blink a couple of times waiting for your eyes to adjust to the light. You swing the legs over the side of the bed and take a deep breath. Suddenly you think: "I want to do something new today... Something I've never done before... I want to go on an adventure!". Your new character is unskilled but has the possibility to do anything. You choose to... go hunting! You establish a deal with the local leather armorer to provide him with hides regularily, and you live off the thrill of the hunt for the next month (or week or day or whatever). Then you realise: "I've become pretty good at shooting with an arrow and sneaking... Maybe I should become an assasin? You say your goodbyes to the local townsfolk who you've come to know and like (or hate) and depart to the nearby capital. Upon arrival you seek out the local tavern to find out who's in charge of who. On the way there you randomly spot a group of thugs trying to mug a lady. Being in a good spot you pull out your bow and arrow and shoot them down. You have aquired a friend. She helps you find the person in charge of covert operations in that specific settlement. And you get a position. A month later, you recieve a special job. Assasinate the king of your rivaling kingdom. You carry out the task, and as a result the rivaling kingdom is added to yours and you recieve a great price and a place to call your own. You decide it is time to study the art of magic. A couple of weeks later you recieve word of a dragon nearby. You and a squad of soldiers are tasked to kill it. You die but with your last breath you realise that your final spell has taken the beast down too. A statue is erected in the town square as a memory to you and your eforts to the kingdom.
This could be the story of any game. However it is not. It is one of the billion ways the story of your MMORPG should be able to unfold. If you decided not to save that lady it should've gone a totally different way. Or if you had decided to go to another kingdom, or not to study magic. Your choises have to matter.
"But how can this ever be? No amount of scripting can make this possible?!"... Not true. The world just has to be player driven and ever changing.
Making it player driven is 'easy' enough. Leave the tedious tasks to the npc's (shopkeeping, guard duty, scribing), and give the positions that matter to the players (Kings and queens, assins, dragons, crafters/suppliers of inventory). And allow them to do anything with the world that is realisticly possible (build cities, destroy cities, cause a demon invasion and that kind of stuff).
Making it dynamic and every changing is a little more difficult, especially programming wise, but it is possible. First you need the fauna and flora of the world to be dependant on player actions (dynamic spawning) so monsters don't just spawn over and over again in the same spot. Second, you need to make the world persistant. Don't revert the world to the same state when the clock strikes twelve, but let it evolve and expand at the players touch. Third, you need to give the players an incentive to play against eachother. There won't be any excitement if everyone is just happily holding hands and cultivating the world together. Make a race that has a reason to hate the other race(s) and watch history unfold as they battle epic battles. And fourth, you need Permadeath.
Without permadeath the king will never die, and you have the same problem as you had when he was an NPC. The cities will never fall, and the enemies never die. The world has become static again, and once more, all you can do is watch as player after player attain max level and as the world is filled out with cities of epic proportion and space is running out you have another themepark to run thorugh and forget. No one will ever raise a statue of memory, because your character is still there. Right until you get bored and stop, and everybody forgets him. You could say that permadeath makes you "quit (or die) while you are ahead". Go down with grandeur and for a purpose instead of waiting until there are no more purpose.
Another thing permadeath allows, is for different character paths to be 'overpowered'. By simply making magic equally harder to achieve and retain, you can make it what magic has always been supposed to be. Why should a knight in shiny armor be able to kill a mage who wields the power to crush mountains and summon demons? (unless he sneaks up and cuts his throat maybe). Dragons. The mighty beast that nobody can be because nobody can stop them then. If becoming and staying a powerful dragon is sufficiently difficult, then that is not a problem. The power rage will be over when enough weaker characters pull themselves together and ally to kill the beast.
Some say that we get bored with games because there is nothing new to do. A game like this won't have that problem, because the players create the new things to do. As the world evolve, the array of posibillities that a player has evolves with it.
Another thing that should be in a game like this is a classless system (skill based). Let every character learn what they want with the right amount of practice. There is no reason to arbitarily limit you to one path, and there is no danger of one player becoming a master of everything if you just make the hardest achievents hard enough. Let those who are willing to take a chance and has the skill be rewarded, and let the more casual players do whatever they want.
Now, to address the complaints.
- "There is nothing fun in spending hours to become strong, then lag for a second and loose it all". There is ways to avoid this. One could be allowing you to have a 100 lives instead of just one, and another could be watching your ping, to determine if it was lag that was the cause.
- (Followup) "When I die all is lost, why would I want that?". First of all because it allows for all of the above. Second, it makes strong being prestigious - would you really rather be just as strong as millions of others all the time, than being the strongest and most feared/influential for a while while you crush all your oppenents and have everyone else look up to you and want to be you? Third, you don't actually loose everything. You still have the connections you had before, and you and your community have still achieved all the things they had before you died. The game changer is letting the player achieve something that is not bound to his character (like levels). Fourth, try a different path. Focus on another skill, and try a different playstyle. The amount of ways you can replay are infinite becaus they rely on the community and state of the world. Nothing will ever be the same.
- "Why would I want to roll a new character". This world is persistant. All the achievements that your character has done are still there. The kingdom you helped fund, the village you saved from that dragon, and your good friend and mastersmith Alvar. You will remember it all and it will be visible. Other than that the world will be totally different from what it was before, and so will your experience. Like playing a new game.
- "I want to see my character grow and evolve. Perma-death does not allow for that." This is exactly what it allows for. It allows for the game to give you the option of becoming even more powerful if you have the skill for that.
I'm sure that there is mutliple ways to counter griefing, and I am going to list one combination here (inspired by Trials of Ascension).
Don't show what level/strength other characters have. If this is the case the griefer would not be able to attack low level targets, and would either die more often than kill, or have to spend time and lives getting to a stage where he would be powerful enough to kill more often than be killed, and at that stage still die sometimes, eventually perishing. Second part of this solution is making combat more reliant on strength and tactics than skill. Don't make players able to take a billion hits because he is 40 levels higher than the next player. If you get your head chopped off you should always die, and even the lowest leveled player should be able to cut the throat of an unprepared and unfocuesed high level player.
This is just one solution, and I believe there is more.
Comments
with permadeath, people would find out the best ways to grief each other. People who play online can be immensive dicks.
Just look Dayz and how people react, if other people are involved in permadeath game, they will find ways to grief. just because they can.
mmorpg.com, the 4chan of mmo forums.
Permadeath is a great concept and could work will and infact does work well with 5 - 6 players and a GM constantly on the watch. Where it doesnt work is in a game with thousands of players.
The reason is simpler the lowest common denominator the PvP griefer these are the guys in Ultima online who thought it funny to casual kill all low level players they see for kicks. Yes it is possible that the nice players would band together to protect the low levels but again not that practical.
That said I can see it working on a primary PvE game perhaps one with open world consensual PVP (much like how SWG did it at least preNGE).
I thank you for the recognition
Could you explain to me what you mean by progression-rading? I think that it would be hard to create a meaningful game like this with high end PvE content because of the nature of PvE content. It has to be created by someone (the devs) and for it to be unique and not be like the standard MMORPG someone either has to create new content every time or create and algorithm that can do it. While the second can definatly be done, it is hella hard to make it do it in a meaningful way. There could be GM events, but this would obviously not give you the possibilty to play through endgame PvE content all the time.
Maybe the solution is realising that it is in fact not PvE that is important but rather some element that is currently only in PvE situations? Explain to me what makes you prefere PvE, and give me a shot at convincing you
Do not get me wrong, I adore permadeath game, Dayz was amazing when it first came out. then the griefers came.
In Dayz and dayz clones, it doesnt matter that much if you die, you just loose your loot. But mmorpg with lvls etc. that is a different thing, I would not spend 50+ hours in a char so some numbnuts could gang up and zerg me, or server lags and monster get me, or I miss judged my lvl and the mob.
Permadeath is great, in certain concepts.
Im sure there are people who are willing to spend 50+ hours in a char and be find to loose it, but those guys/girls are major niche.
mmorpg.com, the 4chan of mmo forums.
Answer to griefing in original post as edit
Society is a contract formed by rational individuals trading away personal freedom for mutual protection. what you describe sounds like the perfect scenario for birth of structured player-created gameplay. Would you like to see what that looks like? It's a bit like this. Territories governed by groups of players, merging together to fight the griefing chaos you describe ad establish order and sovereignty of their living space. http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Verite/influence.png [/quote] Do not get me wrong, I adore permadeath game, Dayz was amazing when it first came out. then the griefers came. In Dayz and dayz clones, it doesnt matter that much if you die, you just loose your loot. But mmorpg with lvls etc. that is a different thing, I would not spend 50+ hours in a char so some numbnuts could gang up and zerg me, or server lags and monster get me, or I miss judged my lvl and the mob. Permadeath is great, in certain concepts. Im sure there are people who are willing to spend 50+ hours in a char and be find to loose it, but those guys/girls are major niche.[/quote]
I suppose that you are one of those guys who are actually willing to accept the modern MMORPG. The perk of permadeath is all that it brings with it that can simply not be achieved otherwise (see everything I write in OP). On the zergin and server lag. Playing a PD game would require a different playstyle than playing the themepark games we have today. You would have to look out for things like zergers and monster, and maybe search the protection of a settlement, but it can be done. Make sneaking be a thing and spotting too, so that you have a chance at spotting the 10 zergers bursting through the forest before they are upon you. Design the game so lag isnt that big of a problem. If there isn't farms of monsters roaming about, and if you have other stuff to do than jumping from one monster to the next, then it will only be in a very few situations that lagg will be a problem. And if you have 10 or a 100 lives then I am sure you could live with dying once or thrice from lagg. And also, make sure that the game doesn't focus overly much on the actual character and more on the community he is in, so the impact of PD'ing isn't as big.
Excellent points @robocapp!
I don't think that you will be able to aquire a role exactly like that in the game I have in mind. However there might be something similar for you.
First let me boild down why it isn't like that in traditional PvP arenas. The key for AI to determine who is the tank (who to attack) is them being able to manage the whole battlefield at once and the players being able to apply threat. Neither of these methods can be applied to players. In a PvP arena situation you often go after the nearest enemy or the one who you know does the most damage.
If something like a tank was to exist in PvP the combat system would have to be very different. I cant think of a solution right now, but if I come up with one I will post it
Until a game can guarantee that no one can cheat then it will only be acceptable to those with masochistic tendencies.
Untill you can eradicate from games botting, hacking, duping and any other kind of cheating then any permadeath system will alienate the vast majority of potential customers, no matter how well designed or thought out.
TBH I didn't read the entire post, but I think I can sum up what I think makes a game truly interesting with a few bulletins.
- The feeling of fear of being able to lose something, but having the ability to keep your 'things' through skill.
- Risk vs Reward
- A functional economy with a worthy crafting system.
I don't think a game really needs much more than this.
I don't see DayZ as a real 'permadeath' game, as there is no character progression and no world changing. Rust would be closer as you can build up a base to call home and form a clan of cave men to create a community. Plus you could put down some sleeping bags to acts as a permadeath buffer. Don't Starve is certainly permadeath as progression is measured in the size of your base and your access to survival utilities, yet, it lacks multiplayer and community.
KoS groups in a Permadeath MMO would not last very long because they would get hunted down and eventually lose all their progression. Plus communities that form up to foster homes for normal players would allow these players to become stronger than the bandits the next time they come around, leaving the bandits to be less prepared. Sure there might be some carnage near the beginning of such an mmo's existence, but the longer civilization lasts, the stronger it will be against thugs.
As for Raid Progression; no, it would not be a thing. There will be Raids, yes, but not for itemized progression. It could perhaps be raiding a Dragon's lair for the loot. It could be for blind exploration. It could be for account unlocks. Look at the thing in Trials of Ascension. "Raiding against a Dragon could gain a Dragon's Heart. Eating the heart has a chance to unlock the Dragon race for you account."
Your individual characters will each have their own adventures to tell. Progression is in your enjoyment of the game and seeing how your interaction with it changes the world. Then when your character's time comes to an end, you start fresh and try something new. Last time you were a Dragon Slayer... Maybe now you'll be the Dragon! Or maybe try your hand as a mage in a world that is deathly afraid of them. (Think of a Jedi in Post-Prequel era)
TL;DR: An MMO built with Permadeath in mind as a main feature will have different goals for progression. Do not try to max your gear with the best of everything because it might get lifted off you by a sneaky rogue hiding in the trees. Instead, make your claim to fame in other ways. Maybe you DO want to have the best armor... MAKE IT. Be the guy that creates and dispences the best armor the game has ever seen. Never put yourself in danger, you'll live forever, but you'll be RICH, play the politics game.
Edit: As for being the Tank in a PvP environment. Have you played League of Legends? Then think of Alistar, Leona, and Singed as a few examples. They don't do too much damage, but think of being the guy with a big shield in an MMO who whacks people 10 feet away when they try to break past you to get at your archers. Movement speed debuffs, Stuns, Shield bashes, knockdowns. Maybe you don't do that much damage, but you really disrupt the fight and maybe slow down their DPS output by two people's worth for your singular efforts.
I honestly don't think that the "vast majority of potential costumers" thinks very much on wether there is bots and hacks available for a given game. And why is hacking in a PD game so much worse than hacking in any other game? Surviving is just as vital in FPS games and they seem to be doing fine. Also a match in a game like hearthstone is also ruined, but I don't see that ruining the reputation of those games.
Cheating/hacking can be detected and cheaters banned which is why not a lot of players do it.
This is where I stopped reading.
So you didn't relate to any of the others either? If you actually consider arguments then you should read on. If you're just another troll, then by all means begone
Could you do me a solid and explain how you addressed this then? I skimmed the OP but it was way too long to especially since it's on a feature that I don't want.
Probably the same thing that happens in DarkFall. You get logged out after a minute, or you run off a cliff and die, or you sit inconspicuously under the brush to log out and attend to your child.... PD has to be done right to feel like you're not getting robbed. ToA will be doing it by giving you 100 Deaths before it's permanent. That should account for normal wear and tear, network snafus, and hard ware breakage.
100 deaths before it's permanent? This doesn't actually solve the problem imho. It's not pemadeath until you reach 99 deaths. At 99 deaths it's no different than any other permadeath concept from what I can tell.
So... what is the problem then?
lol respawn timer of 7 days how about that..... or u can pay 15 dollars to shorten it to 10 seconds xD
yes yes its a joke dont take it seriously
well
you are entitled to your opinion and i reject it
What if your ping jumps to 1223452345 at 99 deaths? What happens if your kid gets hurt at 99 deaths? What if your keyboard dies at 99 deaths? The 100 death solution does nothing to address this.
Permadeath is a terrible MMO concept (in my opinion) that I will never support, in spite of the OP telling me that somehow I should want this. I love all of my MMO characters and it would absolutely crush me if they were somehow taken from me because I wanted to try something new or take a risk or attempt to do the near-impossible. I would have never taken attempted some of the insane elite content solo and experience the joy of victory if I felt I would permanently lose my character because of it. I would have never convinced my friends to help me try to kill enemies in their own city if I knew they would lose something permanently because of it. I love taking risks, trying new things and experience nothing but joy in doing so in the so-called "average" MMO experience. I'm sure there are some that will read the OP and froth at the mouth in excitement, I'm simply not one of the gamer's they're talking to.
I might add that I disagree, not because I don't understand the OP's concept, but only that I disagree with it's premise. Alas, I shall miss out on the way MMO's "should be", but I suppose this is something I don't mind missing out on.