Originally posted by Scot The waters fine, don't get discouraged OP, let the content locusts move on to the next MMO they will love, then hate after playing a month. We don't them.
Let's look at my signature to determine which stage we are at.
(Hint: It is number 3.)
This was funny the first time you said this, the other 12 times... not so much.
Funny how the OP says people should not complain that they paid for a game and only got a half finished product.
Instead they should keep on paying so the company has a chance to fix the game?
Just wow..
I agree with the OP. This game does need a lot of work and the company that made it is clearly new to MMO's. They have made mistakes and didn't foresee a lot of things that a company like Blizzard would have seen but I still like their product and its well worth a measly $15 a month.
I will gladly throw my money at them to help them tweak the game to its full potential.
Most people don't have that kind of attitude though and will quit and come back in a few months and that is cool with me, less crowding in the zones while I prepare for the high level content that is coming up.
Funny how the OP says people should not complain that they paid for a game and only got a half finished product.
Instead they should keep on paying so the company has a chance to fix the game?
Just wow..
How's all the complaints working for you? Have they fixed any games lately? Ever?
Oh come off it. Dakeru has a huge point and you know it. The excuse that MMO's always have this happen and that we should just accept it is bullshit. Is it incomprehensibly difficult to launch a game of this magnitude without bugs? Yes. Should we, as consumers expect it anyway? Yes. Unless these people start putting, on the damn box, that this game will be buggy and in a half-assed unfinished state, then yes we should expect it everytime. Sell the damn product as advertised please. To the letter. I guarantee if they were honest about the experience of the first 4-6 months of the game with a disclaimer on the box, they would sell far fewer copies.
Maybe they should try harder. Consumers expect it and are tired of this garbage.
Well Zenimax has a history with Tamriel and millions of supporters. Many might not be playing however many are and like the game. Yes the first month had issues , however the team at Zenimax worked hard to fix a lot of issues.
Even I was at a point of despair under the month however being I have played this history since Morrowind I support the company.
My guess is that this game will grow over time as more and more people see what a jewel it actually is even for those who were sceptical about "Daoc" pvp. No one who has played the earlier games can claim that questing is lacking.
To all our haters of the game there are thousands who play the game. well gl in your search for the perfect game.
And the free to play crowd who constantly claim it will go free to play in x amount of time. Zenimax will have so much support for a sub based game that if you want to play it well then you are going to have to open your wallet or your mom/dads wallet cause it aint gonna happen.
Long live Teso!
Actually, Zenimax does not have any history with Tamriel, this is their first game using the Elder Scrolls IP. Your just confusing them with Bethesda, which for the record, Bethesda have always said they would never make an MMO based on the Elder Scrolls, they will however continue to make single player games using the Elder Scrolls IP, which is probably just as well. Bethesda did not have a hand in the designing of ESO, although they are credited as being the publisher, which in all probability is only because the IP is theirs.
Might help to realise this is also one of the reasons why Zenimax has not managed to gain favour with the Elder Scrolls community. And has increasingly found disfavour with the online community as a whole, particularly when you throw in their recent debacle involving the OR. Zenimax is swiftly becoming one of the 'hated' companies, whether that will have an impact on ESO also remains to be seen, it may well be the last nail when all is said and done.
Zenimax is the number one reason why I won't touch TESO ever.
Their reputation precedes them. That's why I did not even go to the beach... and I generally don't make a habit of saying so.
(If I as a customer have the opinion I should not trust a MMO Publisher I won't play their MMO no matter how awesome it is, even if everyone on the planet except me is playing it.)
............
If the OP had any idea how many People don't play ESO and never say a word about it he would be thankful they don't all log on here and share that.
Every MMO/MMORPG has it's fans, Players who tried and left, Players that didn't try and say nothing, and Players who didn't try but see that MMO as an evil that must be "posted" into the ground. "SSD[MMO]".
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Do you guys recall that cool WoW Druid quest where you had to swim into the sea to get a piece of sunken thing to for the waterform. It was exciting to do that quest the first time. Underwater content .
Originally posted by RedCurry Wrong! You can swim in ESO, just not any of that silly underwater kind.
Yes...because swimming underwater would ruin the immersion. Who in their right mind would attempt to swim underwater?
Wouldn't swimming underwater actually be the definition of 'immersion' ?
No it wouldn't be 'immersion' it'd be 'submersion', .
When and if they do introduce underwater content in ESO, wouldn't it be cool to have some sort of dwemer submersible? Sorry, off the wall I know, but it got me thinking about possible content additions later!
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV Have played: You name it If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
Originally posted by cheyane Do you guys recall that cool WoW Druid quest where you had to swim into the sea to get a piece of sunken thing to for the waterform. It was exciting to do that quest the first time. Underwater content .
Yeah... along with the level 60 Warlock and Paladin epic mount quests... when WoW was fun to play.
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Does anybody have a source for average retention numbers for MMORPGs? I'm not having much luck finding anything terribly reputable.
Gamasutra used to have such numbers, but I haven't checked back on that site in years (used to be one of the original members). They have long since reorganized their site several times and I have no idea what has been archived and what is still available for general search.
However, for a quick look, without even trying hard, I just googled "retention rates for MMORPGs":
For Social Games: "An appropriate benchmark for duration is somewhere between two months and six months. That implies a churn of 15%-50% and a retention rate of 50-85%. According to flurry, for iOS and Android apps, 24% of customers continue using after three months. After 6 months, this percent shrinks to 14%, and, by 12 months, only 4% are left.
Raf Keustermanns of Plumbee also stated at the Social Games Summit 2011 that any dev should expect to lose 96% of their user base within 12 months. Playnomics have found that approximately 85% of players do not return after the first day."
From right here on MMORPG.com: "...player retention rates, or even initial vs concurrent subscriber values, should be the governing factor in how successful an MMORPG is, because that by definition is how these games operate.
The example that many people seem to cite for 'failures' is Warhammer Online. They boasted 1.2 million boxsales, and the server closures and mergers was making headlines a few months later, and we can gather that the current subscriber base is somewhere around 300k, which is a comfortable operating margin for all purposes. Age of Conan went through a similar phenomenon, so let us say that the retention ratio for these games is .. 300,000 / 1,200,000 = 0.25."
http://www.manaobscura.com/2012/01/20/swtor-the-retention-rate-question/ "...analysts have historically pegged Warcarft’s churn rate at around the same as Netflix with 4-5%. That article’s from nearly 5 years back though, so it’s unclear if this figure is still accurate. There’s also some research from Nick Yee (a research scientist at PARC). His own research (PDF link, ‘Building an MMO With Mass Appeal’, pg 292) indicates that “only 40% of new subscribers remain in a game for more than two months”.
"Crabben said that player retention is key to a free-to-play title's success and that most free-to-play games lose a freshly registered play in the first three minutes of play. If that player sticks around for more than four days, chances are he or she will be playing for a long time, Crabben says. Crabben added that a 30 percent retention rate for users should be considered very successful for any free-to-play game.
He goes on to say that the reward system in games like World of Warcraft is the best method for retaining players. In Wow he says users "kill stuff to get better to get more abilities to kill more stuff."
I personally am glad I ignored the trolls on MMORPG.com. This game was completely off my radar, and I purchased it on a whim after not liking Wildstar beta. This is the first Elder Scrolls game I have ever played and am having a blast. The only thing this will kill this game are the unrealistic expectations communities like this have for it. If your skeptical, I would say go ahead and purchase it. I got it for $40 on g2a.com, and am loving it.
Wow - looking back at my posts, I must have been in a mood last night.
Ahhh MMORPG.com ... where gaming's finest gather to discuss the games we love or hate. (mostly hate from the lot of you... /eh whatever)
I'm enjoying ESO right now. I'll continue to hope that it can grow, and maybe I can stick around for a while. I'm still subbed to Asheron's Call also... but even I admit it is very long in the tooth by now. I still play the occasional single-player game now and also... just prefer online games.
Ultimately, I'd just like to see an MMO all of us can get behind again. I know I'm living in the past myself, with rose-colored glasses, but I miss the communities that sprung up around Everquest and Asheron's Call. I guess that truly was the golden age for MMO's.
Judging by the comments some of you folks posted, I'd say we are a couple of generations apart... different mindset, different ideas. I do realize I'm wasting time posting positive topics on a site like this... but maybe my point can reach a few.
At this point the vast majority of those interested have taken a swim got out and left the beach.
(such is the nature of sub MMOs - retention rates suck, 60%+ never go beyond the first month)
Is it fun making up numbers?
Is it fun not accepting reality?
Do you work for them and have hard numbers? Because otherwise you're blowing smoke.
Not that many people buy a beach pass at all.
No numbers for TESO of course but regarding "the nature of sub based mmos" based on actual numbers released by developers / publishers:
SWTRO: 2.1M sales, 1.7M subscribers of which "just about half" were recurring subs; so 850k/2.1M = 40.4%
WAR: 750-800k initial sales; initial subs 300k. So 40% and below.
AoC: 800-850k initial sales; no actual initial sub numbers but based on their revenue results (back in 2008) max. initial subs - assuming 100% of the increased revenue was AoC related was c. 375k. So about 45% maximum.
So no smoke. Infact SoE, on one of EQ1's anniversary's (5th?), said that monthly churn was 60%. That's 60% loss a month. Which is why there were so many new xpacs - to bring people back.
And "the nature of sub based mmos" is that numbers continue to fall with drops after +1 month, +3 months and +6 months - when sub 20% is the norm. Again based on published data.
Doesn't mean that TESO isn't a "great game" just that "most people get bored and move on".
Edit: in a Gamasutra article just before TESO launched the writer - a game dev involved in publishing - said that they were using a 20% initial retention figure in their cost modelling.
And "the nature of sub based mmos" is that numbers continue to fall with drops after +1 month, +3 months and +6 months - when sub 20% is the norm. Again based on published data.
Doesn't mean that TESO isn't a "great game" just that "most people get bored and move on".
It's not just sub-based MMO's. Same thing happens in the F2P and cash shop games...
You hit the nail on the head though, be it a good game or not people just get bored and move on. My grief with them is it's not the moving on that upsets me... it's the trashing of the game on the way out. I have a hard time seeing why people can't just leave a game if they don't like it. Why trash it? Why do some continually trash something months after leaving?
The problem with this is the game does not get funded for proper fixes, content expansions etc... in a timely manner. No new players want to play the game, just look at how bad it gets panned. Look at the poor reviews. It kills the game. They just kind of flounder along with the ones that liked the game while the puddle jumpers are off to the next hate rally. We get left with mediocre games.
The cycle needs to stop. I laugh out loud at the clueless posts about any company being able to ship a bug free, stellar AAA title, that has 10years of content out the gate and launches with no issues. It is UNOBTANIUM!!!. That game does not exist and never will. Do you have any idea how much work goes into making an MMO? Can you fathom the complexity of the backend server/db architecture and millions of lines of code to get your ugly-arse character off a NOOBIE Isle? Can you?
It's a wonder we ever see any new MMO's. From a profitability stand-point, MMO's are not money makers. Most of the developers you people love to hate on are gamers just like you! For every nit-pick item you find in the game - dozens of decisions are behind it. Not everything you think you find is an easy fix, if it were it would be fixed already. So yeah, when I say you need to suck it up and pay to play a buggy game... I mean exactly that. If not - the door is that away ------> [ ] Seriously, it gets old reading the same ole belly-aching out of the sheep people who jump on the hatewagon as if it cool or something. You are the problem, you are not part of the solution.
There is a reason why you've seen so many kickstarter and crowdsource efforts in the last year or so. Please take a few minutes to think about that. No company is wanting to spend big money on MMO's. The playerbase is too fickle, too picky and some are just downright rude. It is a volatile time to be in the industry unless you've got past sales to rely on.
Fact is, most of the "failed" MMO's are still profitable to an extent, or stand to at least break even given enough time. If not they get shut down. At the end of the day that is just plain business sense. Both SWTOR and FFXIV are good examples of reinventing themselves... both took different paths to get there. Neither game is the game they could have, should have been. Be serious. Two massive IP's and together they have maybe a million active subs/players...
But again, we are left with MEDIOCRE games... If things don't change soon - we might as well get used to playing tablet games that can be developed and brought to market for less than a million/five. Think about it.
And "the nature of sub based mmos" is that numbers continue to fall with drops after +1 month, +3 months and +6 months - when sub 20% is the norm. Again based on published data.
Doesn't mean that TESO isn't a "great game" just that "most people get bored and move on".
It's not just sub-based MMO's. Same thing happens in the F2P and cash shop games...
You hit the nail on the head though, be it a good game or not people just get bored and move on. My grief with them is it's not the moving on that upsets me... it's the trashing of the game on the way out. I have a hard time seeing why people can't just leave a game if they don't like it. Why trash it? Why do some continually trash something months after leaving?
Absolutely. F2P and cash shop games have exactly the same problem. Retention is an issue which is why Zynga has had all sorts of problems.
Why the "hate"? It is not just mmos of course - SimCity came in for some hammer for example - but imo if people are paying a subscription (and the box price is simply the first 30 day sub with admin charges tacked on) that creates a bond. And if the service isn't delivering people complaint. As subscriptions drop off so do the comments - good and bad.
Regarding your other points I agree about the "10 years of content" but disagree about expecting a bug free game - our expectation should be bug free and then we can give games/devs some latitude. Expect bugs .... and we open the flood gates.
As for future mmos and funding it will be "interesting" to see how Bungie's Destiny fares. People can split hairs about whether it is a "proper mmo" but the key is the funding (i.e. business) model. Will it set a precedent?
Originally posted by cheyane Do you guys recall that cool WoW Druid quest where you had to swim into the sea to get a piece of sunken thing to for the waterform. It was exciting to do that quest the first time. Underwater content .
Yeah... along with the level 60 Warlock and Paladin epic mount quests... when WoW was fun to play.
Dem were da days...what a great feeling finally getting that 'lock mount was.
Comments
This was funny the first time you said this, the other 12 times... not so much.
Mmmm yes " Floater " . now where have I heard that term before ...
I agree with the OP. This game does need a lot of work and the company that made it is clearly new to MMO's. They have made mistakes and didn't foresee a lot of things that a company like Blizzard would have seen but I still like their product and its well worth a measly $15 a month.
I will gladly throw my money at them to help them tweak the game to its full potential.
Most people don't have that kind of attitude though and will quit and come back in a few months and that is cool with me, less crowding in the zones while I prepare for the high level content that is coming up.
Oh come off it. Dakeru has a huge point and you know it. The excuse that MMO's always have this happen and that we should just accept it is bullshit. Is it incomprehensibly difficult to launch a game of this magnitude without bugs? Yes. Should we, as consumers expect it anyway? Yes. Unless these people start putting, on the damn box, that this game will be buggy and in a half-assed unfinished state, then yes we should expect it everytime. Sell the damn product as advertised please. To the letter. I guarantee if they were honest about the experience of the first 4-6 months of the game with a disclaimer on the box, they would sell far fewer copies.
Maybe they should try harder. Consumers expect it and are tired of this garbage.
Zenimax is the number one reason why I won't touch TESO ever.
Their reputation precedes them. That's why I did not even go to the beach... and I generally don't make a habit of saying so.
(If I as a customer have the opinion I should not trust a MMO Publisher I won't play their MMO no matter how awesome it is, even if everyone on the planet except me is playing it.)
............
If the OP had any idea how many People don't play ESO and never say a word about it he would be thankful they don't all log on here and share that.
Every MMO/MMORPG has it's fans, Players who tried and left, Players that didn't try and say nothing, and Players who didn't try but see that MMO as an evil that must be "posted" into the ground. "SSD[MMO]".
Lol
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
I heard it was 1001%. Better check yo facts tibbs!
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Wouldn't swimming underwater actually be the definition of 'immersion' ?
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
When and if they do introduce underwater content in ESO, wouldn't it be cool to have some sort of dwemer submersible? Sorry, off the wall I know, but it got me thinking about possible content additions later!
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
Yeah... along with the level 60 Warlock and Paladin epic mount quests... when WoW was fun to play.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
don't try to defend games you like on MMORPG, this is your first strike.
*I totally agree with you btw and am having a great time playing ESO.
60% of the time it works everytime. Oh, and 99% of all statistics are made up.
Playing: Smite, Marvel Heroes
Played: Nexus:Kingdom of the Winds, Everquest, DAoC, Everquest 2, WoW, Matrix Online, Vangaurd, SWG, DDO, EVE, Fallen Earth, LoTRo, CoX, Champions Online, WAR, Darkfall, Mortal Online, Guild Wars, Rift, Tera, Aion, AoC, Gods and Heroes, DCUO, FF14, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, Wildstar, ESO, ArcheAge
Waiting On: Nothing. Mmorpg's are dead.
Gamasutra used to have such numbers, but I haven't checked back on that site in years (used to be one of the original members). They have long since reorganized their site several times and I have no idea what has been archived and what is still available for general search.
However, for a quick look, without even trying hard, I just googled "retention rates for MMORPGs":
For Social Games:
"An appropriate benchmark for duration is somewhere between two months and six months. That implies a churn of 15%-50% and a retention rate of 50-85%. According to flurry, for iOS and Android apps, 24% of customers continue using after three months. After 6 months, this percent shrinks to 14%, and, by 12 months, only 4% are left.
Raf Keustermanns of Plumbee also stated at the Social Games Summit 2011 that any dev should expect to lose 96% of their user base within 12 months. Playnomics have found that approximately 85% of players do not return after the first day."
From right here on MMORPG.com:
"...player retention rates, or even initial vs concurrent subscriber values, should be the governing factor in how successful an MMORPG is, because that by definition is how these games operate.
The example that many people seem to cite for 'failures' is Warhammer Online. They boasted 1.2 million boxsales, and the server closures and mergers was making headlines a few months later, and we can gather that the current subscriber base is somewhere around 300k, which is a comfortable operating margin for all purposes. Age of Conan went through a similar phenomenon, so let us say that the retention ratio for these games is .. 300,000 / 1,200,000 = 0.25."
(Academic study) Portland State University:
Long term study of behavior in Eve Online (beware: heavy reading)
http://www.thefengs.com/wuchang/work/cstrike/netgames07_long.pdf
(Academic study) University of Califoornia, Irvine:
Long term study of behavior in WoW (beware: heavy reading)
http://www.ics.uci.edu/~tdebeauv/files/2011-WoWretention.pdf
http://www.manaobscura.com/2012/01/20/swtor-the-retention-rate-question/
"...analysts have historically pegged Warcarft’s churn rate at around the same as Netflix with 4-5%. That article’s from nearly 5 years back though, so it’s unclear if this figure is still accurate. There’s also some research from Nick Yee (a research scientist at PARC). His own research (PDF link, ‘Building an MMO With Mass Appeal’, pg 292) indicates that “only 40% of new subscribers remain in a game for more than two months”.
http://gamepolitics.com/2012/08/14/developer-thirty-percent-player-retention-rate-success-free-play-game
"Total War designer Jan van der Crabben offered a dire prediction for companies thinking of swimming in the free-to-play pond: expect a 70 percent drop in initial registered users.
From Gamescom :
"Crabben said that player retention is key to a free-to-play title's success and that most free-to-play games lose a freshly registered play in the first three minutes of play. If that player sticks around for more than four days, chances are he or she will be playing for a long time, Crabben says. Crabben added that a 30 percent retention rate for users should be considered very successful for any free-to-play game.
He goes on to say that the reward system in games like World of Warcraft is the best method for retaining players. In Wow he says users "kill stuff to get better to get more abilities to kill more stuff."
Wow - looking back at my posts, I must have been in a mood last night.
Ahhh MMORPG.com ... where gaming's finest gather to discuss the games we love or hate. (mostly hate from the lot of you... /eh whatever)
I'm enjoying ESO right now. I'll continue to hope that it can grow, and maybe I can stick around for a while. I'm still subbed to Asheron's Call also... but even I admit it is very long in the tooth by now. I still play the occasional single-player game now and also... just prefer online games.
Ultimately, I'd just like to see an MMO all of us can get behind again. I know I'm living in the past myself, with rose-colored glasses, but I miss the communities that sprung up around Everquest and Asheron's Call. I guess that truly was the golden age for MMO's.
Judging by the comments some of you folks posted, I'd say we are a couple of generations apart... different mindset, different ideas. I do realize I'm wasting time posting positive topics on a site like this... but maybe my point can reach a few.
"Youre in our world now!"
Not that many people buy a beach pass at all.
No numbers for TESO of course but regarding "the nature of sub based mmos" based on actual numbers released by developers / publishers:
SWTRO: 2.1M sales, 1.7M subscribers of which "just about half" were recurring subs; so 850k/2.1M = 40.4%
WAR: 750-800k initial sales; initial subs 300k. So 40% and below.
AoC: 800-850k initial sales; no actual initial sub numbers but based on their revenue results (back in 2008) max. initial subs - assuming 100% of the increased revenue was AoC related was c. 375k. So about 45% maximum.
So no smoke. Infact SoE, on one of EQ1's anniversary's (5th?), said that monthly churn was 60%. That's 60% loss a month. Which is why there were so many new xpacs - to bring people back.
And "the nature of sub based mmos" is that numbers continue to fall with drops after +1 month, +3 months and +6 months - when sub 20% is the norm. Again based on published data.
Doesn't mean that TESO isn't a "great game" just that "most people get bored and move on".
Edit: in a Gamasutra article just before TESO launched the writer - a game dev involved in publishing - said that they were using a 20% initial retention figure in their cost modelling.
Hail To The SLAUGHTERFISH !!
~spoiler~
swimming far out into the Ocean May cause Death And Achievements
It's not just sub-based MMO's. Same thing happens in the F2P and cash shop games...
You hit the nail on the head though, be it a good game or not people just get bored and move on. My grief with them is it's not the moving on that upsets me... it's the trashing of the game on the way out. I have a hard time seeing why people can't just leave a game if they don't like it. Why trash it? Why do some continually trash something months after leaving?
The problem with this is the game does not get funded for proper fixes, content expansions etc... in a timely manner. No new players want to play the game, just look at how bad it gets panned. Look at the poor reviews. It kills the game. They just kind of flounder along with the ones that liked the game while the puddle jumpers are off to the next hate rally. We get left with mediocre games.
The cycle needs to stop. I laugh out loud at the clueless posts about any company being able to ship a bug free, stellar AAA title, that has 10years of content out the gate and launches with no issues. It is UNOBTANIUM!!!. That game does not exist and never will. Do you have any idea how much work goes into making an MMO? Can you fathom the complexity of the backend server/db architecture and millions of lines of code to get your ugly-arse character off a NOOBIE Isle? Can you?
It's a wonder we ever see any new MMO's. From a profitability stand-point, MMO's are not money makers. Most of the developers you people love to hate on are gamers just like you! For every nit-pick item you find in the game - dozens of decisions are behind it. Not everything you think you find is an easy fix, if it were it would be fixed already. So yeah, when I say you need to suck it up and pay to play a buggy game... I mean exactly that. If not - the door is that away ------> [ ] Seriously, it gets old reading the same ole belly-aching out of the sheep people who jump on the hatewagon as if it cool or something. You are the problem, you are not part of the solution.
There is a reason why you've seen so many kickstarter and crowdsource efforts in the last year or so. Please take a few minutes to think about that. No company is wanting to spend big money on MMO's. The playerbase is too fickle, too picky and some are just downright rude. It is a volatile time to be in the industry unless you've got past sales to rely on.
Fact is, most of the "failed" MMO's are still profitable to an extent, or stand to at least break even given enough time. If not they get shut down. At the end of the day that is just plain business sense. Both SWTOR and FFXIV are good examples of reinventing themselves... both took different paths to get there. Neither game is the game they could have, should have been. Be serious. Two massive IP's and together they have maybe a million active subs/players...
But again, we are left with MEDIOCRE games... If things don't change soon - we might as well get used to playing tablet games that can be developed and brought to market for less than a million/five. Think about it.
/sigh
"Youre in our world now!"
Absolutely. F2P and cash shop games have exactly the same problem. Retention is an issue which is why Zynga has had all sorts of problems.
Why the "hate"? It is not just mmos of course - SimCity came in for some hammer for example - but imo if people are paying a subscription (and the box price is simply the first 30 day sub with admin charges tacked on) that creates a bond. And if the service isn't delivering people complaint. As subscriptions drop off so do the comments - good and bad.
Regarding your other points I agree about the "10 years of content" but disagree about expecting a bug free game - our expectation should be bug free and then we can give games/devs some latitude. Expect bugs .... and we open the flood gates.
As for future mmos and funding it will be "interesting" to see how Bungie's Destiny fares. People can split hairs about whether it is a "proper mmo" but the key is the funding (i.e. business) model. Will it set a precedent?
Dem were da days...what a great feeling finally getting that 'lock mount was.