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What's it worth?
Helleri
Member UncommonPosts: 930
So, this is about virtual goods and currency in MMORPG. What we feel is fair or unfair and why.
I am sure many people here have purchased some form of cash shop money at some point. And, (as to the point of purchasing it to begin with usually) have picked up a few goodies from a cash shop. Maybe they were cosmetic. Maybe they were Pay to win. They may have been consumable, licensed, or permanent.
But, more importantly (towards the point of this thread) you either felt or didn't feel like you got your monies worth. You saw the price they were asking for X amount of currency per dollar as a fair or unfair. And, you were happy with the virtual goods you received or you weren't. This is rather polarizing. We tend to feel one way about it or the other. We may even change how we feel about it over time. But usually we can expect that how we felt about a purchase landed in one of two courts ultimately (liking or disliking the experience).
Maybe you felt like a consumable went a really long way or it didn't. Perhaps That license was more then a fair amount of time or you think you should have gotten it for longer or that it's expiration should have been based on active use. Maybe that cloak you bought you have used as a cosmetic override in every outfit since or maybe you never really used it much past wearing it the first time.
But, you were left with an impression at the end of the day. So...
- What was your absolute best and absolute worst experience with this and why?
- What makes you feel like you are a valued customer and what makes you feel like your just another number?
- Do you think publishers/developers should justify the values they assign to things. And if so; How would you have them go about it?
Comments
I'll start then...
My best experience was actually IMVU (even though I am not active on there any more do to a lack of a real gaming element).
to explain:
IMVU while at best a social MMO with a heavy role playing aspect. Has a user created content marketplace. The in-game currency can be sold for real world currency (allowing it's users who make things to actually profit irl). There is also a peer review system that ensures mostly quality items make onto the marketplace. And, best of all every thing has weight. All items sold list their kb file size. Rooms that you would build and outfits you would assemble have displayed file sizes as well. There is even regulation for weight in uploading.
And, what makes this cool is that items values are quantifiable. If you see a couch that is 1200kb and is 600 credits, and you see a chair that is 600kb at 300credits. You know 2kb = 1credit wear furniture is concerned . And, because of this you know when someone is asking too much or offering a really good deal. You also know (roughly) how much the cost to you is per item in standard money.
Many products are derived from pre-existing products (being retextured), And, in the case where this is so, there is a clear derivation tree which can link you back to the original and what it cost. Therefor you can see what the original creator valued there time and efforts at vs. what the derivative creator does. It's a transparent market that ties it's currency closely to the value of real world money. And, it is probably the most fair, balanced, and justified system of the sale of virtual good and exchange of virtual currency that i have ever seen.
My worst experience with this was definitely Aika Online. A player could potentially spend $100's (some did) getting +11 top tier gear.
To explain:
I don't want to harp on this much. There is so much a would be MMORPG maker could learn from playing this game about how NOT to monetize a game, that it is a little ridiculous. Suffices to say that this game is amongst the most extreme examples of Pay to win out there. And, can milk it's users (I hesitate to call them players given many of them are clearly addicted on the heavy gambling aspects) for 100's inside of a few months (I've talked to a few who dropped over $500 in the first month) and as much as $1,000's over the course of a single players career. I only ever bought a few items that I really wanted on there. But, even the stuff I did get was...not nearly as quality as it could have been for the price. I saw the truly insidious nature of this title and got out before I got sucked in.What makes me feel as if I am being treated fairly is when a maker of something justifies the cost of what they have made, and shows me clearly that they are not asking too much or that they are offering a deal. And, I feel treated unfairly when I see a game offering something like a premium mount for $50 when in another very similar game I may see a very similar mount for $20. And, I am given no explanation for this massive price difference. And, no reason as to why I should spend my money on what game a) is offering over game b).
What I would like to see from more developers/publishers is a reasonable justification for the cost of their virtual good, currency, and services. Now a system like IMVU has can't work in all venues (though it is a very good system). But at the very least I think developers when they have good pricing shouldn't be afraid to show what there competitors charge for basically the same thing (although this may be an admission of being basically the same game. It's not like we are not thinking it already in a lot of cases).
Well on a similar genre, my best experience is Second Life, most designers on SL now offer a free demo (or 1L$ which is 0.003$) so you can easily review the product you are buying. Any item you buy in this kind of games have very little impact on other people's gameplay.
I actually bought a League of Legends skin after weeks of playing it for free.
Wasn't really pressured or whatever but hey, after 100 hours of free entertainment I felt they deserved something from a player.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
You know when I was actively playing world of tanks I bought a Dicker Max (mid tier tank destroyer) because I hadn't really been pressured and I felt like I should pay-in. Sure the game had mentions of what premium would get me vs. regular. And, it let me know about sales. But, it didn't really force anything down my throat. I felt like I could play without paying. But, that they also deserved at least something from me for providing me with the experience.
This is experience I also have an easy contrast to. Which would be LotRO. From the outset the game impresed the importance of making micro transaction purchases. I couldn't even trade with other players unless having made at least a single purchase (this also lifts an initial limit placed on the wallet). And, while it is possible to unlock virtually all content via earning cash shop currency through play (It takes making an account on every server and hitting milestones that reward the account. but, still technically possible).
This very basic level, crucial to play at any level set of features is locked to you unless you pay. And so past a purchase that unlocked this for me (and got me some dyes for clothing and a nice mount). I didn't feel like paying in any more. So when the server I was on eventually died and they said $20 to migrate your account, I was just like... no thanks.
This no pressure approach you talk about (and got me talking about. Although being honest I don't need much encouragement to babble on) is one that I can recall having appreciated myself. And, that would be something that would be nice to see more of I think. Thanks that was a good thing to bring up.
Where it regards second life I have mixed feelings. When I started on there it was under something of a free market system. It was actually possible at that time to make your money simply buying and selling lindens as prices rose and fell. But, they shut that down after a while. They started fixing the prices on lindens in regards to the exchange rate. And, I think they shot themselves in the foot with this a little bit.
Now, second life, though vastly more popular then IMVU (It is effectively the WoW of Social MMO's). Second life has a far inferior market system. There really is no peer review. There are massive issues with copy botting. There is no real standard for what things should be worth. And, there is a lot of purchase baiting. Not to mention heavy merchant to merchant feuds (the creator side of things can be absolutely cut throat).
One of the major reasons I went inactive is having my products and listings spam flagged because they were in direct competition with talentless content creators who were simply more established. I made some very high quality items for very reasonable to down right bargain prices. But, when you have enough of your original content pulled with no evidence and you receive enough threats...And, when the authoring company does nothing about it. It wears on you.
That is the main thing about second life. it's absolutely cut throat and underhanded with very little real support. It doesn't matter if you $50 or $500 a month off it. There comes a point where it simply is not worth the headache. Also:
https://marketplace.secondlife.com/stores/102273
Since you are user I might as well link that to you. That is what remains of my store. Everything in it is completely free. So, have at
Temporary and Timer items, pets, etc make me angry! Nuff said.
I almost always find the price of items way to high. This is cyber space where I am paying for elusive functioning pixels. Nothing I can use in real life. Useless after I leave the game which probably will be in a month to 3mos. I'm not impressed. I don't think anything should be over $1.00 USA dollar.
That view pretends like developers can just print virtual goods like monopoly money. But, the truth is they can't. Every item (even duplicates of the same item) have an effective weight inside and outside the game. A cost in resources to create and support the distribution and initial use/continued use of that item. No more then $1.00 for any given item is a figurative (and might as well be a literal) slap in the face to people who put in time and effort to bring you that.
While it's fair to say that a lot of prices could probably be lower. That some things could and should be cheap. That older products should go on sale or at some point become free once they have paid their weight back in revenue. It is completely unfair to say we should average everything out. Unless you are willing to pay premium that covers all that cost.
So there is a new concept in gaming asset ownership.
player created, player traded items.
Meaning the economics of gaming assets can legally be exploited by players to make income.
Now how much is it worth to you?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
~I am Many~
Wizard101 is really the only MMO I have used the cash shop with.
You can get 60,000 Crowns (in game currency) for $60 (they have sales for this all the time). That's about $1 for 1000 Crowns.
What I have purchased with these Crowns are:
A "Special" House for 10,000 Crowns ($10). I feel that is too much. They DO have houses you can get with looted gold. Not as nice, of course
A Permanent Mount for 15,000 Crowns ($15). WAY too much. I have yet to come across a "permanent mount" that I can buy with looted gold. They do have "mount rentals" (1 day, I think) for looted gold.
A Pet for 15,000 Crowns ($15). It was a little expensive, but I felt it was OK because the pet I bought was available for in game gold. I was just lazy
You can have up to 6 little wizards. If you have more than 1, that $60 you spent in the game goes SUPER FAST! You get NO discounts or Crowns (like other freemium games) for subbing for $10/month.
I would not mind paying $5 here, $5 there. When an MMO starts asking for double digit prices for PIXELS, it makes it very tough for me to purchase.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
So I'm assuming you have the same feeling about gas? I mean it costs so much, yet you never really see it, unless you shoot it into the ground or on yourself or whatever you do.
Just because something isn't tangible doesn't mean it doesn't provide you with tangible value. IE, you can't physically put your hands on the gas that you put in your car, or the electricity that came into your house, but it sure was convenient to be able to drive to work and be warm last week.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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I really want to know where people are getting this nothing over $1.00 idea. Because:
1) It's arbitrary. How is that the right price? what is so special about $1.00
2) It totally ignores that mesh weight, amount of textures, resolutions of those textures, degree of coding and plethora of other factors gives each item in a game a unique weight that is quantifiable (though we don't usually have disclosed to us exactly how). And, therefor has cost to offering it in the first place and continuing to support it.
3) Leveling the playing field to a point of affordability for everyone (which can be the only assumed intent of the suggestion). doesn't work. The guy that has $60.00 blow on the game will still spend $60.00 vs. the person who has exactly $1.00...someone will still walk away with a lot more then someone else and make the lesser purchaser feel like things should be cheaper because of it. It's a real give a mouse a cookie situation in every respect.
4) If everyone has the ability to own the same thing then nothing is special. And, less things are worth having.
Part of giving a fair solution. Part of saying what you think things could cost. Is justifying why you think they should cost. And in absence of a real ability to do that. You can't fairly make the 'nothing above a certain buck' argument. You can fairly suggest a change in the approach. You can ask for fair evaluation. Maybe even ask justification of that evaluation. But trying to say what every one should sell all virtual goods for is simply asinine.
I have to bring this up because I've seen this suggestion twice now and it doesn't really make sense. Even at a cursory glance.
3 Items at $5 each makes $15, what I used to pay to play the THE WHOLE GAME.
This nickle and dime... no, more like $10 and $20 crap is getting old.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
So, for you. It's a by comparison thing. That makes sense. Given that not a lot of game makers a prone to disclose how they landed on their 'just-right-price'. A lot of what we have to go off of is by comparison. Thank you for outlining the reasoning behind yours.
Personally... I am not apposed to paying $10-$20 for content (and especially if I don't pay into a game in another way). But, once we hit this mark. I want it to actually be useful at the same time. That isn't the kind of money I want to spend on something that is a one-off or a cosmetic.
A good for instance is that I paid $20 for my Dicker Max in WoT. I have have had about 400 games in it. And, at guesstimate of the average game being about 8-10 minutes (sounds about right anyway). That means I've paid around $0.30 per hour of entertainment derived from this vehicle. Not bad. I feel I have gotten my monies worth. Now, had that been some sort of purely cosmetic item that I pad that much for. I might be looking at it now thinking "why the heck did I buy this".
I am thinking usefulness has to increase alongside cost. And, not just so people feel the value. But, it also puts items that if used so commonly, might hurt a game, in shorter supply. If a dicker max was $1.00 or $5.00...Matchmaking would be absolutely screwed over at tier 6. But, because it's $20. Less people have them. And, because there is other things for a comparable price. People make the choice for a different kind of tank entirely. And, so premium tanks become an interesting modifier to match making. But, not something that breaks it.
Also, What if they look at their matchmaking statistics and say hey...something is a little off. We need to see more tanks like X in this tier of matchmaking...what do they do? well they could nerf a set of tanks to make players more likely to play the tanks that are healthy for match making (which will anger a lot of people). Or they can put a premium that fits the bill on sale. Which will...really only make a few sour pusses who still don't have enough money upset. But, just as many people happy. And longer term every one a bit more happy because of better balance. But, only keeping that vehicle at a price they know X% of their player base can't afford most of the time lets them adjust things like this.
I don't think it's as black and white as being greedy. I think developers also must use the 'right-prices' to help regulate the health of a game. And, so it comes back it being fair to ask for a change in general method. Or to ask for justification of pricing. But, not really fair or any more then near sighted to ask for blanket prices, that we have no clue what the potential long stretching effects of will be.
I'm think we're at $1.00 because that seems to be a good line of demarcation between "pocket change easily parted with" versus "I need to think about this before I spend it." Is it arbitrary? Probably, but arbitrary cues about pricing matter a lot when it comes to consumer decision-making. See, the goal in F2P isn't to give players some pause to consider how much a thing costs. When players get to that stage, the publisher nearly always loses.
The goal is to make the cost so negligible, players purchase without thinking. $1.00 for something cool? Players can part with that without thinking. $2.99? $3.99? People start to weigh what they'll GIVE UP to get the thing they gain.
I hardly think that things like mesh weight, etc. have much bearing here. These aren't non-scalable phenomena like pizzas or shoes. These are scalable phenomena that you just have to manufacture once, and you can duplicate it infinite times. It isn't like you have to warehouse them, or prevent spoilage, or pay for postage and handling, etc. Besides. There's no rule that says any MMO publisher has to support the things they sell, when their needs change. Certainly the risk of a closure, and the uncertain duration of the things bought in an item store qualifies for a discount. If I buy shoes, the shoes are mine. If I buy virtual shoes, the shoes can disappear whenever the publisher decides not to support them.
Now it's interesting that you bring up the notion of "a point of affordability for everyone," because here is where I think we need to think of MMOs as a special kind of industry, similar to casinos or alcohol. Given the kind of anecdotal evidence I've seen, the typical big spenders in the US MMOs are people who DON'T have much disposable income to spend. A lot of people play MMOs because they can keep themselves occupied for cheap...far cheaper than going out every night, and so you see a lot of unemployed and underemployed pouring into their MMOs full bore as a way to save money. This isn't so for those who have money; the ones who had money tended to log out in order to go on vacations, or a show, or out on the town. But for those who didn't have much money to spend, they don't go on real vacations. They spend their vacations by playing the game. Indeed, when you don't have much, you tend to make the things you do have as good as possible, and so you'll buy the extra inventory slots or a nice virtual house.
But just because people are spending all this money, doesn't mean that they can AFFORD it. A lot can't, just like a lot of compulsive gamblers can't. But this doesn't stop them. When life is so bad in reality, you tend to delve into fantasy as a way to gain some sort of meaning. Is there anything wrong with this? I think it is probably the most human thing a person can do. But we ought to be rather clear here; this industry resembles the vice industries like gambling, porn, prostitution, alcohol and drugs more than it resembles a fully-legit industry. It is an industry that relies on the buying and selling of impressions, perceptions and illusions. An industry like that cannot be compared with most other consumer industries.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Only cash shop items I bought besides what I got for free (SOE gave away some cash shop money to all players when enough people liked them on FB) is a extra bankslot, 4 character slots and an outfit ( wanted the last char slot and had some gems extra) in GW2.
Really no problem with that, but i wont play games that sells items with stats or access to zones or dungeons. Since the point of most MMOs is to get good gear I consider selling it as counter productive while selling access to parts of the game just annoy me.
Bankslots, cosmetic stuff (including races), XP pots (not that I would buy any, I never hurry to the endgame anyways), character slots, makeover kits, minipets and even extra bag space is fine, it wont hurt the balance of the game. DDOs greater loot chance is a bit more dubious but I can live with it in F2P.
I will not tolerate any kind of shops in P2P besides server transfer fees (and that really should be included but I can live with it).
Aika Online the worst experience? Obviously you never played Atlantica Online, where putting 1000$ (1K$) on the game barely gets you started. A lot of players have put over 10K$. A few have put over 40K$ within it's first year of release. The sad part about Atlantica, having been P2P without the cash shop, it would of had 20 times the player base, it would of been a lot more popular then WoW with way more subscribers.
My best experience will always be Runes of Magic, the most legit (and by far) cash shop F2P MMO on the market today. 20$ gets you all set for a pretty long while.
@Beatnik59
With the $1.00 thing. I think you make a good argument for why so many people would want it. But we have to ask if that's actually healthy for a game. In post #14 I feel I made a pretty good half example, half supposition, on the value of having pricier items (not exclusively but mixed in with the bunch).
There is a danger in people not having to think about their purchases. It means they are more likely to get items that they are not happy with regardless of what they paid. And, that they may be more likely to overstep what they would have paid otherwise. Also (and to the point of post #14 again). If every thing is relatively the same price. Then the cash shops potential as a tool to non-intrusively adjust desired behavior towards the ends of game balance is mitigated heavily.
Can they, for their cost into the item afford to sell it cheap as long as they sell a lot of copies? yeah, probably. But, being able to take %70 off an experience mark for low levels so you know that in a week you will have x% of new players at mid level. That's a powerful ability for influencing the game that is totally nerfed if you do it on a $1.00 item as apposed to a $20.00 item.
And, the file size of an item does matter. it matters a lot. yes, it only takes its strict file size to sit in an asset library. But, the transmission of that data. Calling it up and having a player render it. using hooks in its code to send data back on the items use. Making sure that this item communicates with the player using it, the players observing or being effected by it, and the server as a middle man. In each instance that this occurs you have an exponential increase to that static in asset library cost.
If you have ever built something on a social MMO you are likely aware that you can only have so many things within a single cell space. Beyond which you get lag (sometimes well within this limit). That because every surface you have to render, every texture you have to load, every animation or sound you have to play has a cost per instance. a weight. And, while the capacity of what a server can handle can be great, it is finite. In social MMO's we are often made aware of what we can and can't do in this way, because it's pertinent, as it is largely users filling in the content. In a full blown MMORPG we are not because, that is controlled by the developers. It doesn't mean information over area doesn't exist or have an effect. We just don't see it.
So, one really good reason for making a mount $20+ (which usually has character mesh weight near that of character models, and also tends to have high resolution textures, sounds, animations, and even particle effects). Is because you know what percentage of your users will spend how much. And, you want to regulate the density. No more then x number of these things within an area of x size at any one time, or people start lagging. This isn't something you guess at. It's something you know.
@Loke666
That's interesting. I am almost the opposite. I am a Runescape player. And I know every one has 28 inventory slots (effectively up to double that if they have trained their summoning way up for beasts of burden. But, that's more of a temporary modifier for grinding or bossing, that is earned in game). And, if I don't like my characters hair, base outfit, skin color, or even gender. All of these things are free to change fluidly as much as I want (even character name for members. But they place a limiter of 28 days in between changing it, and on your friend's lists there will be an icon during that time that shows what you were last known as, the old name is also held in reserve for 30 full days before it's free for someone else to pick.)
And, if I don't like being on the server I am on for what ever reason, I just exist to lobby and choose another from the list. There is no charge and I don't think about it. Also the default members bank is around 400 slots. They do sell 50 slot bank boosters (and members get on free). But if you need it... you have a hoarding issue. especially since 70% of your would be bank inventory can be stored in player owned houses (entirely aside from the bank). Even manageries for your pets, and bookshelves for the interesting lore you have found.
So when I see other games charging for things that over 13 years I have operated off the basis of simply being entitled to as a matter of common sense. That is the thing in a l;ot of MMORPG that gets to me.
@LegrosGamer
Aika was my personal worst experience. I have not played Atlantica Online. I have heard the name before. But, not even having seen screenshot I am willing to wager I guess at what kind of game pulls down that kind of cash. An overtly generic 4Ex that is available on most mobile platforms and prompts the player for money to speed up the process on just about everything? That would make sense to me.
...The game I would expect someone like Kim Kardashian to play. And, illustrating why I would expect that:
I saw exactly one episode of that show. She was on vacation with some other people or something and lost an earing at the bottom of the ocean...a $75,000 earing! And, not the combined cost even mind you. That was the break down cost of the one she lost. But, all was well. Because, the water was so absolutely pristine that her bf could see it sitting on the ocean floor and dove down to retrieve it....I threw my hands up in the air, walked away and never gave that show a single second more of viewing.
I mean I live off maybe $12.000 a year. Half my existence is barter and trade (small life but I am happy with it). But, I see something like that. 1 earing that not only could I live off the sale of for 5 years but also have enough left over to support something like...I dunno an orphanage/abandoned womens home in India (I think currently $1.60 use is about 50 rupies over there which is enough for basic living expenses for 1 month and 1 person)... I just. like I said I threw my hands up and walked away.
You have never even purchased an item in game from another player that was potential bought from a cash shop?
Worst
Without doubt was neverwinter and their keys for boxes and the fact that after release the hackers had screwed the game that much and yet us that had spent a few ££s (not all of us live in the $$$ worlds so please no more $1 should be £1) got zero back in return.
in a close run second was Snail games and Age of Wushu whilst i didn't buy it, the fact the mount only had a limited time (game time and real life) this was to me nothing but a cash grab idea.
Best would be either
Plex in CCP / Eve
AoC and the extra baggage space , and one or 2 other little things. like using the ingame shop to buy packs etc - As i used to play game when it was month subs, paying the odd few quid here and there for some nice to have felt about right for me
This post is all my opinion, but I welcome debate on anything i have put, however, personal slander / name calling belongs in game
where of course you're welcome to call me names im often found lounging about in EvE online.
Use this code for 21days trial in eve online https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=d385aff2-794a-44a4-96f1-3967ccf6d720&action=buddy
no.
Best experience:
- sell all my high end gear on the D3 RMAH when it was announced and make enough to buy 2 RoS
Different than buying a virtual item from a cash shop ... but that is the most relevant experience for me. Usually i don't touch cash shop.
I recently tried Neverwinter. I had made an account some time ago but somehow forgot it was a game I wanted to try. I can see what you mean about those boxes. When i got my first one I was suspicious because I was such low level and it felt like a potential rare drop the way it presented itself. It was probably niave to think I would get a key drop at some point, lol...But, I held onto it. 70 something boxes later I sold them to the general outfitter for 8 copper ea.
I figured out by the 5th or 6th one that this was micro-bait. however I also figured one more stackable I can sell in bulk for potions *shrug*.
as for plex in EVE...I like it better in runescape as Bonds :P
I've never had a bad experience with a cash shop because I've never bought anything without giving it some thought first. I have used cash shops many many times but never just on a whim that I later regretted. I also keep my purchases spread out over months and kept the costs between $15-20/month ( on avg ).
My best experiences would be with world of tanks
I own the lowe, type 59 both have hundreds of battles on them and I had a lot of fun playing them. Never regretted spending money on that game.
Looking back at the money I've spend the only real regrets I ever have are on box purchases of games I hardly played. For a cash shop if it's too expensive or forced and I don't see the value I just don't buy it or stop playing the game. If you take responsibility for the choices you make, having the choice is a privilege you can later appreciate.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR