i played all those game and for me it wasn't much about those games not being standard enough but more about weird / boring gameplay.
GW2 mechanics to me were weird and laggy, i quite never really understand what my skills were supposed to do and globaly the game in dungeon felt like a get up / get down simulator.
SWTOR had the best quest ever seen in an mmo to me but the gameplay again and more so the map design was horrible.
Teso i think quest are behind swtor but the gameplay is much better, its fluid and engaging but as u said its too solo centric, and after a month it feel grindy because you have this feeling of doing the same thing all the time, i got tired of it to the point of not caring for the main story anymore and canceled.
Now with Wildstar, the very first time i launched it i couldn't stand it for more than 10 mn, we tried again with some friends during a lan, and we started having fun, the fact that the game got polished a bit helped as well.
Played again during the open beta to the point of preordering the game, because ...
Well because its fun ! It may not be a very different game, it may not be sandbox or whatever, but if u stop comparing it to other games and for once drop the brain and play it, its fun and in the end that all that matter.
I even smiled during playing because of a funny quest or ankward situation in pvp, and i told myself when was the last time u smiled in an mmo, this game is not trying to be serious and while its very classic in its mechanics, this is still very refreshing because its fun
Going back to vanilla wow, where leveling is actualy fun, gfx is same with better performance and raids are of the same quality
I cant believe how much the MMOs have progressed since 2004..
mmos are still fun
my only disappointment is that mmos cater more to soloers and short term play sessions post WOW
that's what WOW demonstrated in 2004 to be a popular playstyle
- and mmos want a piece of that cash pie
Not anymore - ESO and WS are the last 2 AAA games to want a piece of WoW pie as both of them funded 6+ years ago when large studios still thought to cash in on WoWs players.
Today no AAA studio is thinking like this, they all realize that WoW ship has sailed and is gone.
IMO WS is possibly the last AAA themepark we'll see period.
I disagree.
Games are usually created for a certain target audience of ages 12 to 35 years. Taking PEGI 12 as earliest entry for a kid playing games. Dependent on the game, the range mighty also start at 16 or even 18. 35 years, because that's the point when people no longer have much tim to play due to job and family.
Every year new targets enter the target audience while others leave. Theme Parks will be a total new experience for the new targets. On the other hand you have the grown up parts of the past target audience. They will start to complain about theme parks yet will maintain playing them.
The same thing happens over and over again.
ESO and WS might be the last MMOs you maybe will have played, but even this I very much doubt.
Originally posted by psiic LOL as an alpha/beta tester I found the game is the most fun until level 20, then it becomes an asian grind from hell.
Could you elaborate on this? Since I've found grinding in Wildstar very ineffective. In fact people who like asian mmo grinding have expressed dislike in the options for grinding in Wildstar.
If you are not having fun within 20 minutes of logging in - either the game is not for you or the game designers have failed.
This is completely wrong. The tutorial is build for non MMO players so if you're an established MMO player, the tutorial isn't for you - however the game itself overall may be. While the game gets the novices caught up, it probably won't challenge you enough to feel fun until around level 15 or so.
I agree with the level 15. You can start the first Adventure which is like a dungeon but different each time you play it based on votes for what path to take which creates different encounters. The first adventure, while fun, is not too difficult.
Questing from level 15 and on, if solo questing, you will probably die often enough because of overconfidence. I find the quests themselves, lore wise, to be kinda boring, but accomplishing them without dying can be tricky if you don't go slow. Mobs in the world can be tightly packed with elites strategically placed to keep you on your toes.
The first 2 dungeons at level 20 are by fun very challanging for a first dungeon. This isn't your rage fire chasm. If you random group it, you will die often. Boss fights are not tank and spank. There are mechanics that cannot be ignored. Trash will kill you as well.
To the OP:
Yes the first 14 levels are not super engaging, but.. and a big BUT... once you get to the main city, and start off from there, things pick up fast and quick. Everything before the main city is basically the tutorial. for someone not experienced, it can take you 3-4 hours to reach, but for more experienced people, you can hit it in just over an hour.
If you like themepark mmos, but tired of the handholding that some of the more popular ones out there do, This is worth a try for longer then 20 minutes. If you are after a sandbox experience, stay away. I found the first 20 minutes to be very boring, but everything 15+ is pretty great.
Seems like all MMOs these days have a specific level where the game actually starts being anything other than a boring, tedious grind that hasn't evolved the genre since Blizzard came out with EZ-Mode Everquest back in 2004.
How long does this game make you wait before you start enjoying it, and is there a way to by-pass the levels that suck so I can actually have fun without investing time being bored in a game I've paid $60 for?
Thanks.
First rule for me to have fun is never play beta. Simple as that. Did this mistake once and never will. But have no problem playing since day 1, even if many bugs are cleared usually only after 1 month or weeks. But never beta, imagine alpha.
Not sure however about which grind you are talking. Grind for me is to get i.e. 20 drops and for this have to kill 100 mobs at least. No such game have been released in last 5 years I'm aware of. Wow was from this perspecitve really boring .... but this is for long gone.
And if not "grinding" what would you do? At end "grind" all over and over same instances?
For me what matters at start is only questing. After come end game.
About Wildstart still do not know, but for sure will buy and play. At release time.
GW2 mechanics to me were weird and laggy, i quite never really understand what my skills were supposed to do ...
Looks like, you have reached a personal limit... if you´re having troubles with 5 + 4 (healing skills heals btw) skills in Guild Wars 2 and what they respectively do or are meant to do or what purpose they have, it might best to ommit future mmorpgs in general.
It can not get easier than GW2...
BTT:
W* is the exact opposite of Guild Wars 2
- not fun to level, grind thru
+ great End Game?
Personally... i don´t like the animations of the races of this game, for me that´s the main deal breaker of any mmorpgs. Hence why i play a hobbit or a dwarf in Lotro (because they dont have a broom up ...).
Questing was tedious during the beta (up to lvl 10, had enough 1h or 2 after leaving the ship), the paths thingy is a joke, walking up to fixed spots to interact with, spots that glow/blink so you don´t miss it?
The graphics are actually very good, it probably looks terrific on a 30·inch tellie, monitor... it does not so much on dated 2008 tft though (<1080p, but hey DS to the rescue).
Gameplay wise (levelling, not pvp or endgame) was nothing special or something to brag about it, not fast enough (Thief , Elementalist *Speedo* GW2)... but again the only reason why im not throwing out 15$ each month is due the ugly out of combat animations of pretty much every race of this game (Chuas excl.)
GW2 mechanics to me were weird and laggy, i quite never really understand what my skills were supposed to do ...
Looks like, you have reached a personal limit... if you´re having troubles with 5 + 4 (healing skills heals btw) skills in Guild Wars 2 and what they respectively do or are meant to do or what purpose they have, it might best to ommit future mmorpgs in general.
It can not get easier than GW2...
BTT:
W* is the exact opposite of Guild Wars 2
- not fun to level, grind thru
+ great End Game?
Personally... i don´t like the animations of the races of this game, for me that´s the main deal breaker of any mmorpgs. Hence why i play a hobbit or a dwarf in Lotro (because they dont have a broom up ...).
Questing was tedious during the beta (up to lvl 10, had enough 1h or 2 after leaving the ship), the paths thingy is a joke, walking up to fixed spots to interact with, spots that glow/blink so you don´t miss it?
The graphics are actually very good, it probably looks terrific on a 30·inch tellie, monitor... it does not so much on dated 2008 tft though (<1080p, but hey DS to the rescue).
Gameplay wise (levelling, not pvp or endgame) was nothing special or something to brag about it, not fast enough (Thief , Elementalist *Speedo* GW2)... but again the only reason why im not throwing out 15$ each month is due the ugly out of combat animations of pretty much every race of this game (Chuas excl.)
/jm2c
Sounds to me like you just love playing with small things. I mean characters of course . I know what you mean though chua's have very good animations. Draken do too though, as do the exile furries.
don't troll me lol, what i mean by don't understand what the skills were supposed to do have more to do with the fact that i had this feeling the skills had not much of an impact (played necromancer), debuff time for exemple were so short you basically had to spam it and it was feeling ankward.
I have a long history and experience of mmo and for some reason it was the first mmo ever i had to reread multiple time the tooltip of a skill because it had such low impact period that it wasn't much noticeable.
Originally posted by Bladestrom Well dan if a person is stupid enough to do quests and not read the story then what do you expect. Next time u read a book I'm just gonna flick through the pages and count the page numbers - shit now every book is the same - make it shorter!
i read 2 liners. Its material for 3 years old. Its cheap and it shows. Its exactly same what separates good books from cheapo "5 cents" books (as we call them in my country). its exactly what separates masterpieces from crap.
OTOH youre saying "its just them books, they are all the same, they have letters that you read and thats about it". Well...i dont really want to educate you.
Going back to vanilla wow, where leveling is actualy fun, gfx is same with better performance and raids are of the same quality
I cant believe how much the MMOs have progressed since 2004..
mmos are still fun
my only disappointment is that mmos cater more to soloers and short term play sessions post WOW
that's what WOW demonstrated in 2004 to be a popular playstyle
- and mmos want a piece of that cash pie
Not anymore - ESO and WS are the last 2 AAA games to want a piece of WoW pie as both of them funded 6+ years ago when large studios still thought to cash in on WoWs players.
Today no AAA studio is thinking like this, they all realize that WoW ship has sailed and is gone.
IMO WS is possibly the last AAA themepark we'll see period.
I disagree.
Games are usually created for a certain target audience of ages 12 to 35 years. Taking PEGI 12 as earliest entry for a kid playing games. Dependent on the game, the range mighty also start at 16 or even 18. 35 years, because that's the point when people no longer have much tim to play due to job and family.
Every year new targets enter the target audience while others leave. Theme Parks will be a total new experience for the new targets. On the other hand you have the grown up parts of the past target audience. They will start to complain about theme parks yet will maintain playing them.
The same thing happens over and over again.
ESO and WS might be the last MMOs you maybe will have played, but even this I very much doubt.
WS is targeted 3-5, preschool.
Yes, we can only hope they are the last of their breed.
Originally posted by Bladestrom It was very similar in wow, early quests were about killing wolves, collecting bandana, taking a letter to an inn, then gradually the story started to evolve, you started to get options with skills etc.
The problem is that people expect to get a AAA single player RPG -story- as questing in an MMO. The thing they don't want however is that it feels like a single player. Which is close to impossible to do, and everything that has tried to, has been shot down for it.
Nonsense. Quality has nothing to do with single player or MMO or w/e. When you have cheap pile, genre doesnt really matter.
They didnt invest in it and it shows. They threw all their eggs in hardcore raiding and it will be very, very entertaining to see how it will unfold.
I honestly don't find the questing all that bad. It's just your standard MMO questing. I suppose everything up to the lategame/group content is just you standard MMO stuff. They do add their own touch to it, mostly the humor.
It's your standard MMO questing from 10 years ago. Go to quest hub, click on all the quest givers, don't read the nonsensical text, look at map to see where you have to go, go to point and click on or kill whatever the current quest objects are, run back to quest giver and get the rewards. If all the quests at that hub are done follow the breadcrumb quest to the next quest hub and repeat the process.
LOL, its not standard quest hub and it also has it at the same time. First Path system is about 25% of the quest in any area and most are not hub related at all. Second most areas you goto town and pick up a few quests and then again most are handed in while out in the field or in the next area you are going to. Most quest are forward moving, rarely keeping you going back to where you picked them up and when you hand in the quest in the field you normally get more quest in the field, often more then you picked up at the hub.
Games are usually created for a certain target audience of ages 12 to 35 years. Taking PEGI 12 as earliest entry for a kid playing games. Dependent on the game, the range mighty also start at 16 or even 18. 35 years, because that's the point when people no longer have much tim to play due to job and family.
Every year new targets enter the target audience while others leave. Theme Parks will be a total new experience for the new targets. On the other hand you have the grown up parts of the past target audience. They will start to complain about theme parks yet will maintain playing them.
offtopic but thats a stereotype
- its no more valid than the stereotype of the "cellar dweller" gamer
i didnt start mmo gaming until the age of 39 in 1999
I was 44 when WOW released and I'm not alone among older gamers on these forums
i doubt new mmos are being marketed as that ... new experiences for new targets
If you are not having fun within 20 minutes of logging in - either the game is not for you or the game designers have failed.
Ugh this mentality is so what's wrong with games right now.
How so? Playing games is about entertainment, if you're not entertained there's a problem some where, be it not to your taste, or boring design.
I can't think of any design principle I've heard that says "don't worry about it" "they'll have some fun 20 hrs from now"..
ok this is whats wrong with society as a whole in the gaming industry...
We treat MMORPGs like they are on the same level as other games ... farmville, Mario Bros. and such.... Get over your selves.
The amount of time it takes to create an MMORPG i beyond you feeble minded cretins. "If its not fun in the first 20 minutes its a bust?" WTF!?!?
20 minutes into most MMOs and youre still in the Tutorial ... For crying out loud... are you fraggin kidding me? God damned Gimme generation pissants didnt screw up WoW or other games enough? Now your starting on games in Beta?
Its simple... Play the game get to end content then your griping has merit.
No.
Sorry, my time is valuable and I'm not going to waste it slogging through to endgame on the off chance I may find some nugget of entertainment in an entertainment product I paid for.
It doesn't even need to be constant fun, just something, anything enjoyable during the opening hour of a game. If there is nothing to grab me I will move on. I have no regrets missing out on mythical endgame bliss. Plenty of other games have hooked me to the end, so I see no reason why I should give a pass to those that don't.
Get a clue and understand that just because a game takes years to make, doesn't mean we, as paying customers, are required to play it for hundreds of hours before we are allowed to say whether we enjoy the game or not.
As others have stated, being able to skip the tutorial could help no end to increase the "fun factor" for MMO's. Lord knows something needs to be done.
Ok but just because YOU don't have the time to invest to enjoy a deeper game, doesn't mean other people don't.
I enjoy deeper games. Plenty of those out there too. All the way from your Dota's to your Xcom Apocalypse's and X's.
Difference is, those games knew how to make themselves entertaining from the get go.
Very few MMO's seem to understand how to do that.
I'm also fully aware that other people have plenty of time to waste. Not really sure why you thought I would think differently there, but I guess you had to argue something.
I pointed it out because your argument seems to be "I don't have time for it, so it's bad." You're using your own lack of free time as an argument (otherwise why say it at all?), so I'm using other people's abundance of free time as an argument. Seems pretty simple.
Also, you seem to assume that resources are unlimited and that there won't be a tradeoff between how much effort a company puts into the depth of their systems compared to the accessibility and "first impressions" aspect of their systems. Or the fact that some developers may be good at making a deep and long-lasting experience, but they may not be skilled at making a fluffy, fun-from-the-get-go experience.
On top of that, maybe they don't want to (and shouldn't) cater to a certain type of player that *needs* to be hooked in the first 20 minutes. Maybe, just maybe, that's what has turned this genre into what it is today, which a lot of people don't like.
Comments
GW2 mechanics to me were weird and laggy, i quite never really understand what my skills were supposed to do and globaly the game in dungeon felt like a get up / get down simulator.
SWTOR had the best quest ever seen in an mmo to me but the gameplay again and more so the map design was horrible.
Teso i think quest are behind swtor but the gameplay is much better, its fluid and engaging but as u said its too solo centric, and after a month it feel grindy because you have this feeling of doing the same thing all the time, i got tired of it to the point of not caring for the main story anymore and canceled.
Now with Wildstar, the very first time i launched it i couldn't stand it for more than 10 mn, we tried again with some friends during a lan, and we started having fun, the fact that the game got polished a bit helped as well.
Played again during the open beta to the point of preordering the game, because ...
Well because its fun ! It may not be a very different game, it may not be sandbox or whatever, but if u stop comparing it to other games and for once drop the brain and play it, its fun and in the end that all that matter.
I even smiled during playing because of a funny quest or ankward situation in pvp, and i told myself when was the last time u smiled in an mmo, this game is not trying to be serious and while its very classic in its mechanics, this is still very refreshing because its fun
I disagree.
Games are usually created for a certain target audience of ages 12 to 35 years. Taking PEGI 12 as earliest entry for a kid playing games. Dependent on the game, the range mighty also start at 16 or even 18. 35 years, because that's the point when people no longer have much tim to play due to job and family.
Every year new targets enter the target audience while others leave. Theme Parks will be a total new experience for the new targets. On the other hand you have the grown up parts of the past target audience. They will start to complain about theme parks yet will maintain playing them.
The same thing happens over and over again.
ESO and WS might be the last MMOs you maybe will have played, but even this I very much doubt.
Could you elaborate on this? Since I've found grinding in Wildstar very ineffective. In fact people who like asian mmo grinding have expressed dislike in the options for grinding in Wildstar.
..Cake..
I agree with the level 15. You can start the first Adventure which is like a dungeon but different each time you play it based on votes for what path to take which creates different encounters. The first adventure, while fun, is not too difficult.
Questing from level 15 and on, if solo questing, you will probably die often enough because of overconfidence. I find the quests themselves, lore wise, to be kinda boring, but accomplishing them without dying can be tricky if you don't go slow. Mobs in the world can be tightly packed with elites strategically placed to keep you on your toes.
The first 2 dungeons at level 20 are by fun very challanging for a first dungeon. This isn't your rage fire chasm. If you random group it, you will die often. Boss fights are not tank and spank. There are mechanics that cannot be ignored. Trash will kill you as well.
To the OP:
Yes the first 14 levels are not super engaging, but.. and a big BUT... once you get to the main city, and start off from there, things pick up fast and quick. Everything before the main city is basically the tutorial. for someone not experienced, it can take you 3-4 hours to reach, but for more experienced people, you can hit it in just over an hour.
If you like themepark mmos, but tired of the handholding that some of the more popular ones out there do, This is worth a try for longer then 20 minutes. If you are after a sandbox experience, stay away. I found the first 20 minutes to be very boring, but everything 15+ is pretty great.
First rule for me to have fun is never play beta. Simple as that. Did this mistake once and never will. But have no problem playing since day 1, even if many bugs are cleared usually only after 1 month or weeks. But never beta, imagine alpha.
Not sure however about which grind you are talking. Grind for me is to get i.e. 20 drops and for this have to kill 100 mobs at least. No such game have been released in last 5 years I'm aware of. Wow was from this perspecitve really boring .... but this is for long gone.
And if not "grinding" what would you do? At end "grind" all over and over same instances?
For me what matters at start is only questing. After come end game.
About Wildstart still do not know, but for sure will buy and play. At release time.
Looks like, you have reached a personal limit... if you´re having troubles with 5 + 4 (healing skills heals btw) skills in Guild Wars 2 and what they respectively do or are meant to do or what purpose they have, it might best to ommit future mmorpgs in general.
It can not get easier than GW2...
BTT:
W* is the exact opposite of Guild Wars 2
- not fun to level, grind thru
+ great End Game?
Personally... i don´t like the animations of the races of this game, for me that´s the main deal breaker of any mmorpgs. Hence why i play a hobbit or a dwarf in Lotro (because they dont have a broom up ...).
Questing was tedious during the beta (up to lvl 10, had enough 1h or 2 after leaving the ship), the paths thingy is a joke, walking up to fixed spots to interact with, spots that glow/blink so you don´t miss it?
The graphics are actually very good, it probably looks terrific on a 30·inch tellie, monitor... it does not so much on dated 2008 tft though (<1080p, but hey DS to the rescue).
Gameplay wise (levelling, not pvp or endgame) was nothing special or something to brag about it, not fast enough (Thief , Elementalist *Speedo* GW2)... but again the only reason why im not throwing out 15$ each month is due the ugly out of combat animations of pretty much every race of this game (Chuas excl.)
/jm2c
Sounds to me like you just love playing with small things. I mean characters of course
. I know what you mean though chua's have very good animations. Draken do too though, as do the exile furries.
don't troll me lol, what i mean by don't understand what the skills were supposed to do have more to do with the fact that i had this feeling the skills had not much of an impact (played necromancer), debuff time for exemple were so short you basically had to spam it and it was feeling ankward.
I have a long history and experience of mmo and for some reason it was the first mmo ever i had to reread multiple time the tooltip of a skill because it had such low impact period that it wasn't much noticeable.
i read 2 liners. Its material for 3 years old. Its cheap and it shows. Its exactly same what separates good books from cheapo "5 cents" books (as we call them in my country). its exactly what separates masterpieces from crap.
OTOH youre saying "its just them books, they are all the same, they have letters that you read and thats about it". Well...i dont really want to educate you.
WS is targeted 3-5, preschool.
Yes, we can only hope they are the last of their breed.
Nonsense. Quality has nothing to do with single player or MMO or w/e. When you have cheap pile, genre doesnt really matter.
They didnt invest in it and it shows. They threw all their eggs in hardcore raiding and it will be very, very entertaining to see how it will unfold.
LOL, its not standard quest hub and it also has it at the same time. First Path system is about 25% of the quest in any area and most are not hub related at all. Second most areas you goto town and pick up a few quests and then again most are handed in while out in the field or in the next area you are going to. Most quest are forward moving, rarely keeping you going back to where you picked them up and when you hand in the quest in the field you normally get more quest in the field, often more then you picked up at the hub.
offtopic but thats a stereotype
- its no more valid than the stereotype of the "cellar dweller" gamer
i didnt start mmo gaming until the age of 39 in 1999
I was 44 when WOW released and I'm not alone among older gamers on these forums
i doubt new mmos are being marketed as that ... new experiences for new targets
EQ2 fan sites
I pointed it out because your argument seems to be "I don't have time for it, so it's bad." You're using your own lack of free time as an argument (otherwise why say it at all?), so I'm using other people's abundance of free time as an argument. Seems pretty simple.
Also, you seem to assume that resources are unlimited and that there won't be a tradeoff between how much effort a company puts into the depth of their systems compared to the accessibility and "first impressions" aspect of their systems. Or the fact that some developers may be good at making a deep and long-lasting experience, but they may not be skilled at making a fluffy, fun-from-the-get-go experience.
On top of that, maybe they don't want to (and shouldn't) cater to a certain type of player that *needs* to be hooked in the first 20 minutes. Maybe, just maybe, that's what has turned this genre into what it is today, which a lot of people don't like.