No punctuation marks, no arrows, no hearts, no glowing, no indications whatsoever because static quest givers are just plain ridiculous anyway. Somebody's son, wife, whatever is missing so they stand around in the tavern not saying anything waiting for someone to come up to them and ask what's wrong? Yeah that makes a lot of sense. Better idea...they come up to you, or you witness the abduction and begin a conversation with another bystander who informs you who they were and where they lived and you go there to find out more.
And another thing, no more quest stacking. That's ridiculous also. Just a few base quests with multiple stages that branch out. Maybe you were sent to find someone's stolen trinket and but decide you'd rather fall in with the thieves than play the hero.
The possibilities are endless as are the opportunities to actually build a persona for a character by doing fewer but more involved quests. The problem is that developers are just plain lazy they tuck tab-A into slot-b and create another cardboard MMO cutout that's just like all the others.
And about classes (yeah I know, off topic)...for longest time they've been putting the cart before the horse. I like classes but it makes absolutely no sense that if hit a guy in the face enough times with a sword as a warrior I will eventually learn how to heal people and kill undead and graduate to a paladin...huh? Better idea...don't pick the class and get the skills, get the skills then pick the class. Start with guilds, like fighters guilds, thieves guilds, magi guilds...each player goes to one of those to learn skills. Want to be a paladin? Send some time learning to fight with the fighters then go spend some time learning to cast spells with the magi, learning to heal with the healers, etc...then go to the local order of Paladins and apply for more specialized training. Yeah its a journey but isn't that the point?
the problem is not the question mark or the exclamation mark indicating a quest. The problem is the nature of the quest itself. With or without exclamation marks the quest will still be insufferable until they change the whole generic, repetitive, boring pattern all of them keep following.
I looked deep inside, and...I didn't find disgust. Sorry, I can't get on board with this. This seems just like more artificial difficulty / artificial separation tripe meant to keep 'the lessers' out of a game.
I'm pretty tired of them myself. WoW seems like a constant marathon of text walls and I LIKE the game. Others like TERA and to an extent, Neverwinter, who boasted such great combat systems, were disappointments to me because I just felt like I was doing everything the devs planned for me to do. However unlike TERA at least Neverwinter gave you the power to make your own quests and instances.
ESO and Wildstar are following down the same path. *shrug* I've got a FEW question mark devoid games to play, guess it'll have to be enough until someone grows an imagination.
Yes! It's much more fun to talk to every single NPC and branch through countless dialogue trees of meaningless small talk for five minutes only to find out they have no quests for you.
Question marks or other quest indicators are fine.
Actually...I do enjoy this. I still have the collector's edition of a very old RPG where I had to talk to people around town and be generally inquisitive.
I enjoy it in single player RPGs. I like lore and backstory in MMORPGs as well, and always read the quest text. But I shouldn't have to wade through 6 pages of banal text and dialogue trees just to find out there was no point, especially if that NPC is talking about something I already know.
I think the best solution is a simple toggle to turn them off, along with options for various other quest markers.
AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!
We are born of the blood. Made men by the blood. Undone by the blood. Our eyes are yet to open. FEAR THE OLD BLOOD.
Exclamation/Question marks are merely a symptom of a larger problem. The bigger question is that games need to quit making """"quests"""" the equivalent of a chore list we have to complete before our parents will let us play with our toys.
Running a message across town for you is not a quest.
Finding a book from the shelf in the same room for you is not a quest.
Killing an arbitrary number of X for you to help clear our some of the X that never stop spawning for you is not a quest.
Let's take a look at some things that are:
Arthur's journey for the holy grail was a Quest.
Frodo's journey to Mount Doom to destroy the One Ring was a quest.
Sabriel's journey to the innermost reaches of the Old Kingdom to save her father was a Quest.
Odyssesus' journey to return to his family in was a quest.
Don Quixote's journey to chilvaric journey was a quest.
The above is what makes quests in literature fantastic and quests in games lames. In the latter set, a quest is a journey to a destination for the characters involved, and the journey is an end unto itself for the reader. Whereas with the former, the quest is ultimately meaningless to the character and doubly so for the player.
None of those things are that bad. It's the way they are presented that's bad. Finding the quest is part of the fun (for me). Sometimes the NPCs have interesting things to say and I wouldn't bother to read what they say if I know to go click on the guy with the exclamation mark.
I'm fine with quest markers or without. I loved EverQuest, and I really enjoyed Guild Wars when it came out. The deciding factor for me is the overall quality of the game. I will say that it's tougher for a "hand-holder" to hook me as quickly, and I hold them to a higher standard than exploration-oriented games.
Honestly, I think the ideal system for me is a mixture of the two - quest markers to let you know NPC X has something for you, but then you have to go figure everything out yourself. This could appeal to the people who are really happy with marker-based games as well. I could be completely wrong, but I've always assumed that portion of the gaming community just wants as little stress as possible in their games. It's a tool for relaxation, not more stress on top of everyday life. This way if you're going to get stressed out it's about the quest itself, not being unable to find things to do or finishing a quest and forgetting where the NPC was to begin with.
Either way, I respect both segments of gamers - and those like me who are between the two.
(Note: I skipped past a ton of posts in this thread, apologies if redundant.)
Exclamation/Question marks are merely a symptom of a larger problem. The bigger question is that games need to quit making """"quests"""" the equivalent of a chore list we have to complete before our parents will let us play with our toys.
Running a message across town for you is not a quest.
Finding a book from the shelf in the same room for you is not a quest.
Killing an arbitrary number of X for you to help clear our some of the X that never stop spawning for you is not a quest.
Let's take a look at some things that are:
Arthur's journey for the holy grail was a Quest.
Frodo's journey to Mount Doom to destroy the One Ring was a quest.
Sabriel's journey to the innermost reaches of the Old Kingdom to save her father was a Quest.
Odyssesus' journey to return to his family in was a quest.
Don Quixote's journey to chilvaric journey was a quest.
The above is what makes quests in literature fantastic and quests in games lames. In the latter set, a quest is a journey to a destination for the characters involved, and the journey is an end unto itself for the reader. Whereas with the former, the quest is ultimately meaningless to the character and doubly so for the player.
Agreed.
The top lists tasks more or less. These still could be in mmo's but as minimal as possible. I think these could work if a developer decides to use them as dailies or ways to make some extra coin. The best use for tasks is to post them on missive boards. It would be kind of interesting if some of the missives where player generated.
The bottom lists suggests what quests are meant to be. A quest is a long journey. That would mean incorporate epic travel. It would look like something like this. You're in good standing with a faction that patrols the Riverlands. There an old prophet says you find the lost Key to Roo's Castle so this other faction doesn't find it first. That could mean you travel through 3-10 differen zones in search for it. It may follow a script. It would also mean that unforseen triggered events would occur as well. That would disrupt your path. Where you and you're group must make a decision that could be beneficial or determential to the cause. It's sort of like choose your own adventure books in a way.
Quests need to be more meaningful and capture that sense of adventure. Based on my other thread, "A Beautiful World - you want a world not a lobby" would suggest that this type of quest mechanic I propose would work for a game that is developed for a world, not a game.
Originally posted by Prhyme No, it's a good system that works.
It's a system. A good system? I don't think anyone could argue that.
Making NPCs glowing signposts instead of virtual people? Generic "quests" that you can do blindfolded?
It's not good for story. It's not engaging for leveling. It doesn't stimulate the mind in any way. It's just lazy design, and the MMOs that implement it don't tend to do too well long term.
Quest based leveling is one of the biggest issues in the MMO genre right now. It instantly makes most people tired of a game, as they all play the same way. And none of the quests are worth doing because they're tied into the leveling system.
So, I was watching Extra Credits and came across a group of videos about quests in MMOs. From my understanding, they are relevant to this conversation, and they're usually pretty insightful, so I'll just put it here.
You want "quantity" (replay again and again) instead of "quality" (one fun play-through)?
Personally i prefer quality than quantity. Give me short but very fun games.
Heh, I know very well your post ain't quite on topic and it has all these red exclamation marks hovering about it, but as tired I am it seems I still want to take a bite:)
You never played a game that was good enough to make you want to return to it a few months after completion? How can you call the game truly good, if you treat it like a movie giving it only a quickie? Yea, I know, many modern games don't deserve much more...
When I think about it, there's maybe one game I could call very good that still hasn't made me want to replay it: Amnesia: Descent. A very good game, but it lacks the rpg elements of replayability. Many of the older srpg's, BG, BG2, NWN, NWN2 and so forth, D2, some final fantasies. For me. Some may call it nostalgia, but I definitely wouldn't simplify it as such. The amount of replayability those games offer(ed) is pretty much off the charts when I compare them to many of the newer ones. BTW, have you ever actually played much older srpg's?
Besides, your comment on "quantity" is quite off... it holds water only if you are talking about remembering everything and exactly similar playthroughs, of which those who look for replayability quite seldom talk about. Unless, of course, you are actually saying you didn't find the game enjoyable so ever replaying anything of it would be boring and a chore. Then I would perhaps understand your viewpoint.
I remember you talking about diablo III often. Do your remarks of non-replayability hold for that game too? When you play a different class, is that not replaying the game? Or are you actually still playing the game with only one character?
Alas, enough of this:) I know this is a kind of a children's crusade and there is no way this would turn into a nice conversation. But perhaps a hint may suffice. If you don't enjoy people calling you out, you might want to consider toning down the propaganda, at times.
Comments
I'm good without them.
I'd like to see less need for them really. Static NPCs is such lazy programming now a days.
a yo ho ho
No punctuation marks, no arrows, no hearts, no glowing, no indications whatsoever because static quest givers are just plain ridiculous anyway. Somebody's son, wife, whatever is missing so they stand around in the tavern not saying anything waiting for someone to come up to them and ask what's wrong? Yeah that makes a lot of sense. Better idea...they come up to you, or you witness the abduction and begin a conversation with another bystander who informs you who they were and where they lived and you go there to find out more.
And another thing, no more quest stacking. That's ridiculous also. Just a few base quests with multiple stages that branch out. Maybe you were sent to find someone's stolen trinket and but decide you'd rather fall in with the thieves than play the hero.
The possibilities are endless as are the opportunities to actually build a persona for a character by doing fewer but more involved quests. The problem is that developers are just plain lazy they tuck tab-A into slot-b and create another cardboard MMO cutout that's just like all the others.
And about classes (yeah I know, off topic)...for longest time they've been putting the cart before the horse. I like classes but it makes absolutely no sense that if hit a guy in the face enough times with a sword as a warrior I will eventually learn how to heal people and kill undead and graduate to a paladin...huh? Better idea...don't pick the class and get the skills, get the skills then pick the class. Start with guilds, like fighters guilds, thieves guilds, magi guilds...each player goes to one of those to learn skills. Want to be a paladin? Send some time learning to fight with the fighters then go spend some time learning to cast spells with the magi, learning to heal with the healers, etc...then go to the local order of Paladins and apply for more specialized training. Yeah its a journey but isn't that the point?
I'm pretty tired of them myself. WoW seems like a constant marathon of text walls and I LIKE the game. Others like TERA and to an extent, Neverwinter, who boasted such great combat systems, were disappointments to me because I just felt like I was doing everything the devs planned for me to do. However unlike TERA at least Neverwinter gave you the power to make your own quests and instances.
ESO and Wildstar are following down the same path. *shrug* I've got a FEW question mark devoid games to play, guess it'll have to be enough until someone grows an imagination.
I enjoy it in single player RPGs. I like lore and backstory in MMORPGs as well, and always read the quest text. But I shouldn't have to wade through 6 pages of banal text and dialogue trees just to find out there was no point, especially if that NPC is talking about something I already know.
I think the best solution is a simple toggle to turn them off, along with options for various other quest markers.
AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!
We are born of the blood. Made men by the blood. Undone by the blood. Our eyes are yet to open. FEAR THE OLD BLOOD.
#IStandWithVic
None of those things are that bad. It's the way they are presented that's bad. Finding the quest is part of the fun (for me). Sometimes the NPCs have interesting things to say and I wouldn't bother to read what they say if I know to go click on the guy with the exclamation mark.
I'm fine with quest markers or without. I loved EverQuest, and I really enjoyed Guild Wars when it came out. The deciding factor for me is the overall quality of the game. I will say that it's tougher for a "hand-holder" to hook me as quickly, and I hold them to a higher standard than exploration-oriented games.
Honestly, I think the ideal system for me is a mixture of the two - quest markers to let you know NPC X has something for you, but then you have to go figure everything out yourself. This could appeal to the people who are really happy with marker-based games as well. I could be completely wrong, but I've always assumed that portion of the gaming community just wants as little stress as possible in their games. It's a tool for relaxation, not more stress on top of everyday life. This way if you're going to get stressed out it's about the quest itself, not being unable to find things to do or finishing a quest and forgetting where the NPC was to begin with.
Either way, I respect both segments of gamers - and those like me who are between the two.
(Note: I skipped past a ton of posts in this thread, apologies if redundant.)
- Nellus
Agreed.
The top lists tasks more or less. These still could be in mmo's but as minimal as possible. I think these could work if a developer decides to use them as dailies or ways to make some extra coin. The best use for tasks is to post them on missive boards. It would be kind of interesting if some of the missives where player generated.
The bottom lists suggests what quests are meant to be. A quest is a long journey. That would mean incorporate epic travel. It would look like something like this. You're in good standing with a faction that patrols the Riverlands. There an old prophet says you find the lost Key to Roo's Castle so this other faction doesn't find it first. That could mean you travel through 3-10 differen zones in search for it. It may follow a script. It would also mean that unforseen triggered events would occur as well. That would disrupt your path. Where you and you're group must make a decision that could be beneficial or determential to the cause. It's sort of like choose your own adventure books in a way.
Quests need to be more meaningful and capture that sense of adventure. Based on my other thread, "A Beautiful World - you want a world not a lobby" would suggest that this type of quest mechanic I propose would work for a game that is developed for a world, not a game.
It's a system. A good system? I don't think anyone could argue that.
Making NPCs glowing signposts instead of virtual people? Generic "quests" that you can do blindfolded?
It's not good for story. It's not engaging for leveling. It doesn't stimulate the mind in any way. It's just lazy design, and the MMOs that implement it don't tend to do too well long term.
Quest based leveling is one of the biggest issues in the MMO genre right now. It instantly makes most people tired of a game, as they all play the same way. And none of the quests are worth doing because they're tied into the leveling system.
So, I was watching Extra Credits and came across a group of videos about quests in MMOs. From my understanding, they are relevant to this conversation, and they're usually pretty insightful, so I'll just put it here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otAkP5VjIv8&list=UUCODtTcd5M1JavPCOr_Uydg&src_vid=CvimYs7tnRM&feature=iv&annotation_id=annotation_4273757635
It talks about how to make quests unique and not sucky.
Heh, I know very well your post ain't quite on topic and it has all these red exclamation marks hovering about it, but as tired I am it seems I still want to take a bite:)
You never played a game that was good enough to make you want to return to it a few months after completion? How can you call the game truly good, if you treat it like a movie giving it only a quickie? Yea, I know, many modern games don't deserve much more...
When I think about it, there's maybe one game I could call very good that still hasn't made me want to replay it: Amnesia: Descent. A very good game, but it lacks the rpg elements of replayability. Many of the older srpg's, BG, BG2, NWN, NWN2 and so forth, D2, some final fantasies. For me. Some may call it nostalgia, but I definitely wouldn't simplify it as such. The amount of replayability those games offer(ed) is pretty much off the charts when I compare them to many of the newer ones. BTW, have you ever actually played much older srpg's?
Besides, your comment on "quantity" is quite off... it holds water only if you are talking about remembering everything and exactly similar playthroughs, of which those who look for replayability quite seldom talk about. Unless, of course, you are actually saying you didn't find the game enjoyable so ever replaying anything of it would be boring and a chore. Then I would perhaps understand your viewpoint.
I remember you talking about diablo III often. Do your remarks of non-replayability hold for that game too? When you play a different class, is that not replaying the game? Or are you actually still playing the game with only one character?
Alas, enough of this:) I know this is a kind of a children's crusade and there is no way this would turn into a nice conversation. But perhaps a hint may suffice. If you don't enjoy people calling you out, you might want to consider toning down the propaganda, at times.
+1 Shame on devs for using boring and unoriginal ? and !
If it were me, heh, instead I'd do something like this.
An ability that reads "Request a Quest"
*CLICK*
[Character loudly yells to all nearby NPCs in the town] "I'M A BIG DAMN HERO LOOKING FOR WEALTH AND POWER SO GIMME YER QUEST, AH HAHAHAHA"
All NPCs come running to you with quest in hand.
Of course same kind of character wouldn't get the same reaction in other places...
NPC1: *eyeroll* (to NPC2) "Get a load of this loser. Like I would trust him to deliver my uncle's medallion."