Voted no, not because I don't agree with some of your points but because the game is fundamentally bad. Too many wrongs to ever make it right. Starts with the slow boring combat system (should be full fledged action or Tab not a quasi mash of the 2) and carries over to the reliance on story and linear questing. World should be open and seamless with about a 400% increase in landmarks (Traditional Elder Scrolls series calls these Points of Interest) to explore. Remove questing altogether, remove classes and then we can talk about the business model and level design.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
ESO is going to flop harder then SWTOR did. Just wait a few months and see how bad it realy is compared to sales from other mmo's.
Ever wondered why they havent released any informations about subs or sales :P ? Well we do !!! Just wait a few months and its free to play, the cashshop is already implemented !
Price tag doesn't improve a game because what is most valuable is the players/gamers time.
Simply put:
PRICE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE GAME'S QUALITY UNLESS IT OUTWRIGHT BREAKS THE GAME
(I.E FREE-TO-PLAY-PAY-TO-WINS)
QFT!
Pricing model does not make the game good or bad, how good or bad the game is however, will influence how much players are willing to pay, at the moment, the game needs time to be fixed, the pricing model is imo, entirely reasonable as is. With the only real exception being the imperials being put behind a paywall, that was one of several questionable decisions made by Zenimax, which almost certainly had to do with them needing to add an incentive to players buying a CE edition, it would have been better if they just made the available items, like the horse etc, account wide rather than just for one toon.
When the game is fixed i hope that it will be re-reviewed and hopefully the game will have improved by then and some of the missing features added to the game, but if in the meantime it went F2P/B2P i would more likely than not, just bypass it entirely, as the only reason would be because the game was not worth paying a subscription for.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by Kyleran Punishing sub fee, go figure.
what I mean by that, is being forced to pay a sub fee for a product which doesnt have a quality that deserving of that fee. So its punishing.
No one forces you to play a game. Or is someone from Zenimax sitting behind your chair with a gun at your head forcing you to get a subscription? If you fear being punished, simply do not play the game.
It is good that TESO has got a subscription fee. It ensures a high level of service, quality of updates and future content updates that will be completely free.
Thats a nice line of reasoning in theory.
The reality however is that (as many people on this site have confirmed) the levels of service from patching through to support are terrible and certainly not on par with a sub based game.
As for subs / content, are we not already past the first content release milestone? Was it not supposed to be regular, quality content every 4- 6 weeks? Was this not one of the benefits a sub would bring?
They have already missed that deadline for the first content update and now with the conole release suffering a huge delay I no longer see the arguement that subs equate to high quality of service holding any water....
Originally posted by Fendel84M The biggest barrier with subs these days isn't the price. It's that many of us play multiple MMOs and a sub makes you feel like you're wasting the time you paid for if you don't play every day. I think that's the biggest reason subs are starting to die out.
No to many free loaders today, I have no issue paying for a sub, don't play many MMO's, no idea what to tell you but paying 30 bucks a month is not a big deal.. If its is maybe play one?? There are plenty of that free to play trash, to many people whine about prices, when they have no idea the cost or hard work to make these games.
When MMO's die off you will wonder why, I know why, to many free loaders today!!
didnt say force to play the game. I said forced to pay a sub fee that doesnt fit the quality of the game, in order to play the game.
Why pay a sub fee for a beta? makes no sense.
Have you even played ESO? Be honest now. What beta? This game has many problems but now I'd like to read some hard facts from you which prove your claims.
Originally posted by Kyleran Punishing sub fee, go figure.
what I mean by that, is being forced to pay a sub fee for a product which doesnt have a quality that deserving of that fee. So its punishing.
Being the only MMO in the last 10 years to get RvR mostly correct is more than enough reason for a sub fee. JUst get rid of the box fee, and make it so people can't switch campaigns, and return the bonus to group xp, and I'd be playing.
Seems to me, the game sucks and you are looking for a way to make it less sucky without having to make an investment. Do like others do, skip it and play something else. It will go F2P, that is a certainty. Just not tomorrow.
Originally posted by Kyleran Punishing sub fee, go figure.
what I mean by that, is being forced to pay a sub fee for a product which doesnt have a quality that deserving of that fee. So its punishing.
No one is forcing you to play this game. So it is not punishing, unless you are a masochist.
didnt say force to play the game. I said forced to pay a sub fee that doesnt fit the quality of the game, in order to play the game.
Hell no. This game is definitely worth the sub fee, to me, and I wouldn't want that changed. And hell no to removing levels. If you don't like "levels" and progression, perhaps the MMORPG genre isn't for you.
They can adjust a game all day, but they can't help the issue between the keyboard and the chair. Played: UO, DAoC, AC, WoW, EVE, TR, WAR, Aion, Rift, SWTOR, GW2, TSW, ESO, Elite:D Play EVE for free for 21 days
Originally posted by MrG8 Hm... no.. go get a job so you can afford a subscription MMO.
This. If a $15 sub isn't trivial then you should probably be prioritizing your time differently.
Of course, a game needs to be worth a sub. I don't think any single player game is worth a sub. Older MMORPGs that you played exclusively or nearly exclusively or at least played a ton were worth a sub. A casual single player game that you will just add to your collection and play sparingly isn't really worth a sub. A so-called MMORPG where you exhaust single player content quickly and don't have much to do except wait for more quick to digest single player content isn't really worth a sub.
And yet, I almost feel I'd rather pay a sub even so just to maintain the quality and purity of game because once you go F2P I don't play your game. Pay 2 win is for losers.
While I'm not sure that ESO is worth a sub, and I'm sure WildStar is not (because it has cash for gold pay to win in it which makes it trash not worth playing in any form), subs are definitely a good thing for other reasons.
Subs give you a level playing field (everybody has the same potential, the same ceiling, and how you play determines your success, not how much cash you're willing to spend) and help you feel like you're actually playing a game. Pay 2 win via cash shops is lame. Microtransactions are lame. The sub is worth it simply to not have to deal with the unclean sleaze of cash shops or being nickel and dimed over things that should be part of gameplay (paying cash for bank/inventory slots for ex).
Subs ensure a somewhat higher level of player quality since most people who want stuff for free are pretty much losers and people who spend lots of money in cash shops to pay 2 win are even bigger losers. Do you really want to be in a game surrounded by losers? I do not.
This is one of the big reasons I detest the change in MMORPG design away from grouping, challenge, and danger towards wider appeal, dumbing down, solo crap, and handouts for doing trivial nonsense. The quality of player has got to be so low that it's now impossible to create a game of quality that people will stick with, and thus it's harder than ever to make a game worth a sub. As long as you're trying to be everything to everybody and have to dumb your game down to a lower than ever least common denominator, it's really hard to justify a sub. Ultra dumbed down fast food ez-mode isn't worth a sub.
Premium MMORPGs do not feature built-in cheating via cash for gold pay 2 win. PLAY to win or don't play.
Originally posted by Kyleran Punishing sub fee, go figure.
what I mean by that, is being forced to pay a sub fee for a product which doesnt have a quality that deserving of that fee. So its punishing.
No one is forcing you to play this game. So it is not punishing, unless you are a masochist.
didnt say force to play the game. I said forced to pay a sub fee that doesnt fit the quality of the game, in order to play the game.
[mod edit]
But this is the part you got wrong. To you the quality doesn't fit with a sub fee. To others it does. I don't go see a lot of movies at the theatre because to me it isn't worth the $30-50 its going to cost the family to go see. But it might be worth it only Blu-ray at release and the least, Redbox.
Its not a punishing sub fee if you want to play it. The sub fee is a nominal fee that most people could really care less about, if it is a game they like. If they don't like the game, they have your mentality that the game is not worth a box +sub fee.
I find it funny that everyone always says it's not worth the sub fee of $15, but when a game goes F2P they love the game and play it and spend more than $15 a month for upgrades and cosmetic items...Is this Bizzaro World?
I don't know how many times I've said this, but I'll say it again, subscription games are cheaper than free to play (which there is no such thing as free).
The only problem this game game has imo. IS THE DAMN VET LEVELS. My whole guild but me quite the game at V-level-2. Its such a grind for such little reward.
I fully agree with the removal of levels and making it, ideally, skill based.
I don't care if it is buy to play, pay to play or free to play; until they make vast sandbox improvements, I could care less.
In my opinion, Elder Scrolls online, of all mmos, should have owned the sandbox + genre.
That was .... Awesome!
I dont know who you are , i dont know where you are , but i will find you and we fight for this !
On the Op .... I am great fan of TES but TESo is just fail, it`s not about subs model , it`s about charging for beta , and all this start from D3 i think , after this most of developers believe they can charge for beta testing as blizzard done b4.
TESO will bcome F2P or need realy fast and huge sandbox improvements
Get rid of the levels, to make the game seem like it has more freedom.
Use the current ingame skill advancement system as a replacement for the main form of progression. More skills, and more skill branches. All discovered in the world, or bought from NPC faction trainers.
As for the payment model.
make the game B2P. Gain massive amount of money off the Box sells. People are much more forgiving of flaws in game design when they dont have to pay a punishing sub fee to play something they already bought. So this would be a good push for both the population in the game, as well as more sells.
I am all for sub.
I can fully understand when I read how people play these games that these games are not worth a sub to them.
But I also know that I play games in this genre very different then most I see here on these forums.
I am also fine with the leveling system but perhaps that's because I addept to any game I play instead of wanting/needing to make the game addept to my personal wishes.
Found my niche in ESO and the sub will be the only reason to continue playing for me. Meaning if this game would have been B2P or F2P I might not have touched it.
I don't think they need to do any of those things. They have enough players that play it and have no problems coming up with 15$ a month. It all depends on what kind of numbers the exec were looking to, I don't think the game has less than 500k players. And levels? Do you know how long it would take to do that?
Comments
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
ESO is going to flop harder then SWTOR did.
Just wait a few months and see how bad it realy is compared to sales from other mmo's.
Ever wondered why they havent released any informations about subs or sales :P ?
Well we do !!!
Just wait a few months and its free to play, the cashshop is already implemented !
QFT!
Pricing model does not make the game good or bad, how good or bad the game is however, will influence how much players are willing to pay, at the moment, the game needs time to be fixed, the pricing model is imo, entirely reasonable as is. With the only real exception being the imperials being put behind a paywall, that was one of several questionable decisions made by Zenimax, which almost certainly had to do with them needing to add an incentive to players buying a CE edition, it would have been better if they just made the available items, like the horse etc, account wide rather than just for one toon.
When the game is fixed i hope that it will be re-reviewed and hopefully the game will have improved by then and some of the missing features added to the game, but if in the meantime it went F2P/B2P i would more likely than not, just bypass it entirely, as the only reason would be because the game was not worth paying a subscription for.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I fully agree with the removal of levels and making it, ideally, skill based.
I don't care if it is buy to play, pay to play or free to play; until they make vast sandbox improvements, I could care less.
In my opinion, Elder Scrolls online, of all mmos, should have owned the sandbox + genre.
http://wyrdblogging.blogspot.com/
Thats a nice line of reasoning in theory.
The reality however is that (as many people on this site have confirmed) the levels of service from patching through to support are terrible and certainly not on par with a sub based game.
As for subs / content, are we not already past the first content release milestone? Was it not supposed to be regular, quality content every 4- 6 weeks? Was this not one of the benefits a sub would bring?
They have already missed that deadline for the first content update and now with the conole release suffering a huge delay I no longer see the arguement that subs equate to high quality of service holding any water....
How is buy to play free loading?
Have you even played ESO? Be honest now. What beta? This game has many problems but now I'd like to read some hard facts from you which prove your claims.
You are right, they should. But are they? The IP alone should be a gold mine, but currently ESO is more like a tar pit.
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
The IP is a gold mine on consoles.
Being the only MMO in the last 10 years to get RvR mostly correct is more than enough reason for a sub fee. JUst get rid of the box fee, and make it so people can't switch campaigns, and return the bonus to group xp, and I'd be playing.
Hell no. This game is definitely worth the sub fee, to me, and I wouldn't want that changed. And hell no to removing levels. If you don't like "levels" and progression, perhaps the MMORPG genre isn't for you.
They can adjust a game all day, but they can't help the issue between the keyboard and the chair.
Played: UO, DAoC, AC, WoW, EVE, TR, WAR, Aion, Rift, SWTOR, GW2, TSW, ESO, Elite:D
Play EVE for free for 21 days
This. If a $15 sub isn't trivial then you should probably be prioritizing your time differently.
Of course, a game needs to be worth a sub. I don't think any single player game is worth a sub. Older MMORPGs that you played exclusively or nearly exclusively or at least played a ton were worth a sub. A casual single player game that you will just add to your collection and play sparingly isn't really worth a sub. A so-called MMORPG where you exhaust single player content quickly and don't have much to do except wait for more quick to digest single player content isn't really worth a sub.
And yet, I almost feel I'd rather pay a sub even so just to maintain the quality and purity of game because once you go F2P I don't play your game. Pay 2 win is for losers.
While I'm not sure that ESO is worth a sub, and I'm sure WildStar is not (because it has cash for gold pay to win in it which makes it trash not worth playing in any form), subs are definitely a good thing for other reasons.
Subs give you a level playing field (everybody has the same potential, the same ceiling, and how you play determines your success, not how much cash you're willing to spend) and help you feel like you're actually playing a game. Pay 2 win via cash shops is lame. Microtransactions are lame. The sub is worth it simply to not have to deal with the unclean sleaze of cash shops or being nickel and dimed over things that should be part of gameplay (paying cash for bank/inventory slots for ex).
Subs ensure a somewhat higher level of player quality since most people who want stuff for free are pretty much losers and people who spend lots of money in cash shops to pay 2 win are even bigger losers. Do you really want to be in a game surrounded by losers? I do not.
This is one of the big reasons I detest the change in MMORPG design away from grouping, challenge, and danger towards wider appeal, dumbing down, solo crap, and handouts for doing trivial nonsense. The quality of player has got to be so low that it's now impossible to create a game of quality that people will stick with, and thus it's harder than ever to make a game worth a sub. As long as you're trying to be everything to everybody and have to dumb your game down to a lower than ever least common denominator, it's really hard to justify a sub. Ultra dumbed down fast food ez-mode isn't worth a sub.
Premium MMORPGs do not feature built-in cheating via cash for gold pay 2 win. PLAY to win or don't play.
But this is the part you got wrong. To you the quality doesn't fit with a sub fee. To others it does. I don't go see a lot of movies at the theatre because to me it isn't worth the $30-50 its going to cost the family to go see. But it might be worth it only Blu-ray at release and the least, Redbox.
Its not a punishing sub fee if you want to play it. The sub fee is a nominal fee that most people could really care less about, if it is a game they like. If they don't like the game, they have your mentality that the game is not worth a box +sub fee.
I find it funny that everyone always says it's not worth the sub fee of $15, but when a game goes F2P they love the game and play it and spend more than $15 a month for upgrades and cosmetic items...Is this Bizzaro World?
I don't know how many times I've said this, but I'll say it again, subscription games are cheaper than free to play (which there is no such thing as free).
Keep the sub.
Keep the levels. Levels have always been a part of Elder Scrolls as far back as I can remember.
But the whining can go. For sure.
That was .... Awesome!
I dont know who you are , i dont know where you are , but i will find you and we fight for this !
On the Op .... I am great fan of TES but TESo is just fail, it`s not about subs model , it`s about charging for beta , and all this start from D3 i think , after this most of developers believe they can charge for beta testing as blizzard done b4.
TESO will bcome F2P or need realy fast and huge sandbox improvements
I am all for sub.
I can fully understand when I read how people play these games that these games are not worth a sub to them.
But I also know that I play games in this genre very different then most I see here on these forums.
I am also fine with the leveling system but perhaps that's because I addept to any game I play instead of wanting/needing to make the game addept to my personal wishes.
Found my niche in ESO and the sub will be the only reason to continue playing for me. Meaning if this game would have been B2P or F2P I might not have touched it.
No, keep your $$ shop out of my RPG!
Just say no to c2g conversion!