There were some challenges brought on by meditation. You might be attacked while resting (similar to D&D resting had a % chance you would be attacked). Yes this is challenging because in games today everything is static generally and doesn't usually agro. Even if it does it's easy to take multiple mobs down usually with any class.
Another reason resting/memorizing/meditating was important is because melee classes were supposed to protect the frailer mage classes who spend all their time studying spells and gaining magical power.
Maybe it's a mechanic that could be lived without, but to you everything needs to be fun. According to your idea of fun it seems there can be nothing in a game that is not fun or provokes emotion (drama). The question is what do you find fun in game? To me you seem to only like things that are easy (fun to you). I realize Diablo 3 combat is challenging to an extent at higher levels, but it's more about gear then anything IMO.
To me you want to take everything you consider bad/boring out of games, but don't realize the consequences doing so entails. That's fine as a lot of people don't seem to realize this as well. They just don't understand the value. That is fine.
Let me get this straight ...
- watching a non-moving screen until something happens is challenging to you?
- if melee class is supposed to protect mage class, someone has to do nothing for them to protect? Just have them protect a NPC.
And yes, everything needs to be fun in a game. Otherwise, i don't see a point. And yes, D3 combat is challenging .. and certainly a lot more than sitting around doing nothing. May be you should try that some time.
Heck, even tic-tac-toe is more challenging than watching a static screen waiting something to happen.
And don't expect your values applies to everyone. Watching a screen has zero value in my entertainment.
Protecting an NPC is pointless IMO. This is part of grouping mechanics.
To me constant combat non stop combat is not fun or healthy.
To me you can't have fun in a game without having some hardships to overcome. The hardships are not likely to be fun. That is why not everyone is willing to accomplish them, but when you do it actually feels rewarding. If everything is fun/easy the game is not fun. There is nothing to elicit fun because there is nothing to elicit emotional response of any kind IMO.
Perhaps staring at a spellbook was overkill, but the mechanic is fine. I believe they would just need to tone down the amount of time it took to recover magic.
You are contradicting yourself. If it is overkill, it is not fine. In fact, you are the only one i have seen defending something that not even the dev would defend.
Well, you apparently haven't watch any good movies (Avengers for example), or good games (like Deus Ex HE, or Tomb Raider) where it is fun from start to finish.
If you want hardship, it is your prerogative, but any dev who put even a bit of hardship in an entertainment product can expect me to go away.
And hardship is not "challenge". I like some challenge in a game, but boring (to me) parts .. no thanks! If i want to get bored, i can watch paint dry .. which in this case, a totally apt analogy to staring at a spellbook.
The original EQ was just such a classic Roleplaying Game. When you look at how MMO's are built now adays, most just dont have that classic Roleplaying feel to them. They try to throw everything at the player too fast, and force-feed this idea that the player is a hero from the very start of the game.
In Classic EQ, a rat could kill you at level 1, you would miss swings, your spells would fizzle, your mana would fluctuate randomly like your magic was reluctant to work properly; you were a mess in other words.
You didnt start off killing a badass monster, you started off as all real hero's do, with merely a will and no way in sight but what random path you walked down.
You would talk to NPC's, read and listen to what they said carefully, and then you would talk back to them. It wasnt much, but if you chose to, you could roleplay your character to the NPC's, they felt alive and they always had something inspiring or intriguing to point out to you.
There wasnt a clear cut level above each enemies head, you would simply "Consider" the enemy, and the game would give you an estimate of what would happen in the fight, almost like a second consciousness in the game saying things like "Well you could try to kill it, but its defiently a gamble". It wasnt a cut and dry system, it wasnt reduced to hard numbers, it was a choice, one that you made not always knowing the complications of your actions, this was a REAL choice.
Then you would finally get proficient at what you were doing, you would start to hit the target more, you magic would grow stronger and more controlled. You'd get a pet maybe, and try to attack a small gnoll camp on your own. You would take a couple of them, and feel a sense of accomplishment when you almost had the fight in your favor, and then it would happen...
A Skeleton would come out of nowhere, just randomly wadering the zone to happen upon you in the midst of the hardest fight of your in game life, and in one strike he would take you down, proving to you that you were not that powerful, not yet, you were going to need help.
In a flash of black you would die and be without all your spells, knowledge, and gear. You would run back to your corpse, gather up all your belongings, relearn your spells, and take some time to learn from your mistakes, or maybe not, but eventually with enough time you would.
You might get a friend to help you next time, or maybe just a stranger, maybe by luck a passerby would buff you with some helpful enchantments, you didnt know, but you knew when you saw another player they were going through or - had gone through - alot of the same experiances of loss and challenge, and that alone made it part of the experiance. Other players werent constantly competing with you, they had enough competition in the world to worry about, and you were just another player in this universe's immense struggle.
This is what EQ was about, and all I want is that same game but with better graphics. A game rich with exploration, conflict, choices, and a sense of danger and philosophy. A game that is more than a show of numbers and who has the better gear, but an authentically immersive experiance.
While I don't fully agree with the OP's other points, I do wish MMORPGs would stop trying to force feed the hero complex down our throats. No, I'm not a legendary hero. Look behind me - there's at least ten other people at least as strong or stronger than me, waiting to turn in this quest. The story and approach to the player needs to match the world design.
It would be fun to see this but it would be a financial disaster for the developers. As Sovrath said this game have to stay afloat with max 100 000 subscribers. Furthermore the customer base is not there anymore EQ was viable as there where lots of young people that had played pen and paper RPGs or MUDs that accepted the idea that things should take time. I was working even then and could not spend 5 hours a night playing EQ and that was very negative for my EQ experience.
A game today where you are unable to do something worthwhile in say a 2 hour evening gaming session is dead on arrival, those of us that played EQ at launch does not have the time anymore and the younger gamers would never accept that kind of game design.
Originally posted by Jemcrystal Outside of having drow Everquest was kinda boring. It was as the title implied. Ever questing. And questing. And questing. And questing. I liked Skyrim better. That world felt alive. It just was to advanced graphically to be an mmo because we don't have the computer tech yet to make the game we're looking for.
You liked Skyrim better? That game was made recently. EQ did have a number of things similar to the elder scrolls games and was pretty similar to morrowind I believe. One thing the elder scrolls games were always missing was having people online. I believe EQ was more line an elder scrolls MMO (originally) then ESO is like an elder scrolls MMO.
Yep.
TESO min running requirements is a 4quad PC. Walmart and Best Buy are selling computers with shitty laptop graphic cards in them and now with no upgradable graphic card slot. Until we get a CHEAP gaming system that works that the general public can easily find while buying burgers and pop there will be no advancement in mmorpg's. To be an mmo you need a player base. The player base has been cut off from the gaming world. The systems we're using are shit and we can't afford the systems that aren't shit. We aren't buying parts and putting them together in our basements. That's not how we do things these days. Someone needs to get on the fucking band wagon and fix this!
I always have to laugh when people say losing a days worth of exp is too excessive. You're entitled to your opinion but D3/PoEs biggest scene is their hardcore ladder where death means you lose everything.
Originally posted by Jemcrystal Outside of having drow Everquest was kinda boring. It was as the title implied. Ever questing. And questing. And questing. And questing. I liked Skyrim better. That world felt alive. It just was to advanced graphically to be an mmo because we don't have the computer tech yet to make the game we're looking for.
You liked Skyrim better? That game was made recently. EQ did have a number of things similar to the elder scrolls games and was pretty similar to morrowind I believe. One thing the elder scrolls games were always missing was having people online. I believe EQ was more line an elder scrolls MMO (originally) then ESO is like an elder scrolls MMO.
Yep.
TESO min running requirements is a 4quad PC. Walmart and Best Buy are selling computers with shitty laptop graphic cards in them and now with no upgradable graphic card slot. Until we get a CHEAP gaming system that works that the general public can easily find while buying burgers and pop there will be no advancement in mmorpg's. To be an mmo you need a player base. The player base has been cut off from the gaming world. The systems we're using are shit and we can't afford the systems that aren't shit. We aren't buying parts and putting them together in our basements. That's not how we do things these days. Someone needs to get on the fucking band wagon and fix this!
PC developement for gaming is very inefficient. They just move on the biggest latest cards. They should have had a gaming standard platform for a few years and aimed to make games run on this and allow upscaling for those with better computers. I guess with competition it can't be helped. Not to mention Microsoft should have long ago started a lighter gaming edition of Windows.
You buy a console and you know the graphics and performance will get better with time as developers squeeze more and more out of the systems. PC you know you're system is already old and declining as soon as you build/buy it. Not to start a PC/console war because I do both.
It would be fun to see this but it would be a financial disaster for the developers. As Sovrath said this game have to stay afloat with max 100 000 subscribers. Furthermore the customer base is not there anymore EQ was viable as there where lots of young people that had played pen and paper RPGs or MUDs that accepted the idea that things should take time. I was working even then and could not spend 5 hours a night playing EQ and that was very negative for my EQ experience.
A game today where you are unable to do something worthwhile in say a 2 hour evening gaming session is dead on arrival, those of us that played EQ at launch does not have the time anymore and the younger gamers would never accept that kind of game design.
100,000 subscribers is a good number but it is higher than what is required to keep many MMO profitable. Many smaller /older MMOs haven't seen 100,000 subscribers for years like; Age of Conan, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Star Trek Online, Pirates of the Burning Seas, and a ton of F2P Asian imports.
Success doesn't mean having the most customers, a reworked EQ1 would be a niche game and not meant to appeal to the MMO masses. It wouldn't require the the huge staff teams to develop and support, so lower staffing costs, lower hardware costs and lower support costs means less profits needed to stay afloat.
Real gamers, old school gamers are a dead and dying breed.
We lost.
We literally now have two generations of entitled, selfish, self centered destructionist, dominating the gamer population.
The days of gamers having honor, morals, and the ability to work together as a community is dead and buried.
These young people did not grow up with discipline and values like we did.
They never learned decency or respect.
They are generations spoon fed violence, anarchy, and hatred.
To quote Eddie Murphy, " They yawn at creation, and thrill at destruction. "
We were artist, poets, and dreamers. They are liars, cheaters, and thieves.
Sadly you are correct. I remember griefers back in UO were pretty ruthless, the difference though is they were few and far between and the majority of people would group up and hunt them down like the the pigs they were. These days griefers are a dime a dozen and most who are not would rather go about their business than go after them. And how about grouping? These dungeon finder things in game, how many times have you gotten into one and no one peeps a sound the entire dungeon? So much is wrong with MMO communities these days. I blame WoW for making it a job instead of a game or social event. Gear inspection in 20!
Originally posted by Ludwik I always have to laugh when people say losing a days worth of exp is too excessive. You're entitled to your opinion but D3/PoEs biggest scene is their hardcore ladder where death means you lose everything.
I would love to play an MMO with perma death.
Not by official Blizz statistics. Only 9% of the characters made are HC. Anyway you cut it, HC is a small (though still sizeable) part of D3.
Originally posted by Ludwik I always have to laugh when people say losing a days worth of exp is too excessive. You're entitled to your opinion but D3/PoEs biggest scene is their hardcore ladder where death means you lose everything.
I would love to play an MMO with perma death.
Not by official Blizz statistics. Only 9% of the characters made are HC. Anyway you cut it, HC is a small (though still sizeable) part of D3.
I dont know the official statistics, nor am I inclined to agree/disagree with "Only 9%" comment, but I believe what Ludwik is referring to is the "scene" not the player base.
For example, only a fraction of people play Super Smash Bros competitively, yet the scene surrounding MLG/competitive Smash is huge, and is constantly being supported by companies, sub-groups, and has its own serious following on Twitch and other gaming sites.
Yet Im sure if you asked the average smash player if they know about the UFGTX Melee Finals this past weekend, they would have no idea what your talking about, because they arent involved in that scene.
Again, this doesnt mean competitive smash players are better, more intelligent, or even more significant in their passion for the game. It just means they have a very specific, finely crafted world thats beyond the mainstream realm of smash bros. The whole point of this post and specifically even this thread, is that its not better or worse to be mainstream, but there should be options for people.
Its just like mainstream music, it correlates very well to Modern MMORPG's. Theres nothing wrong with Kesha, or Linkin Park, or any other mainstream artist, But they shouldnt be the only acceptable model of mainstream. The mainstream should be felxible enough to accomadate a few other bands or MMO's that try something a bit different.
Its why I enjoyed ESO for the time that I did, because even though it was mainstream, it was just A BIT different enough to keep my attention for a month. Granted after a month I was done with it, but at least it gave me that much.
Originally posted by Jemcrystal Outside of having drow Everquest was kinda boring. It was as the title implied. Ever questing. And questing. And questing. And questing. I liked Skyrim better. That world felt alive. It just was to advanced graphically to be an mmo because we don't have the computer tech yet to make the game we're looking for.
You liked Skyrim better? That game was made recently. EQ did have a number of things similar to the elder scrolls games and was pretty similar to morrowind I believe. One thing the elder scrolls games were always missing was having people online. I believe EQ was more line an elder scrolls MMO (originally) then ESO is like an elder scrolls MMO.
Yep.
TESO min running requirements is a 4quad PC. Walmart and Best Buy are selling computers with shitty laptop graphic cards in them and now with no upgradable graphic card slot. Until we get a CHEAP gaming system that works that the general public can easily find while buying burgers and pop there will be no advancement in mmorpg's. To be an mmo you need a player base. The player base has been cut off from the gaming world. The systems we're using are shit and we can't afford the systems that aren't shit. We aren't buying parts and putting them together in our basements. That's not how we do things these days. Someone needs to get on the fucking band wagon and fix this!
PC developement for gaming is very inefficient. They just move on the biggest latest cards. They should have had a gaming standard platform for a few years and aimed to make games run on this and allow upscaling for those with better computers. I guess with competition it can't be helped. Not to mention Microsoft should have long ago started a lighter gaming edition of Windows.
You buy a console and you know the graphics and performance will get better with time as developers squeeze more and more out of the systems. PC you know you're system is already old and declining as soon as you build/buy it. Not to start a PC/console war because I do both.
Desktop PC's are very efficient unlike devices that cannot be upgraded. You can replace one part and make it work like new but with a mobile device or anything that cannot be upgrade you have to toss the device.
Also, not sure what PC games you are playing that requires you to upgrade all the time. Last I checked PC games stop pushing graphics years ago. There are only two franchise that I can think of that require monster specs anymore. Battle Field games and Crytek engine games.. Oh and I guess skyrim..
So everyone singles out three games then complains about how they need beast video cards to play them. Well, you could play them on console where they look like crap I suppose or you can play them like this..
All these people buying crazy fancy video cards and ram do it so they like 3 games in 4k on 3 IPS screens. For the rest of you a 200 dollar graphics will play many games for years to come.
Real gamers, old school gamers are a dead and dying breed.
We lost.
We literally now have two generations of entitled, selfish, self centered destructionist, dominating the gamer population.
The days of gamers having honor, morals, and the ability to work together as a community is dead and buried.
These young people did not grow up with discipline and values like we did.
They never learned decency or respect.
They are generations spoon fed violence, anarchy, and hatred.
To quote Eddie Murphy, " They yawn at creation, and thrill at destruction. "
We were artist, poets, and dreamers. They are liars, cheaters, and thieves.
Sadly you are correct. I remember griefers back in UO were pretty ruthless, the difference though is they were few and far between and the majority of people would group up and hunt them down like the the pigs they were. These days griefers are a dime a dozen and most who are not would rather go about their business than go after them. And how about grouping? These dungeon finder things in game, how many times have you gotten into one and no one peeps a sound the entire dungeon? So much is wrong with MMO communities these days. I blame WoW for making it a job instead of a game or social event. Gear inspection in 20!
This sure reads like some 'Kids these days' posts.
I remember the UO griefers were enough to shock the developers (who didn't play that way), and caused turmoil and game changes. They were certainly a factor for those folks who left en masse for Trammel.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Its just like mainstream music, it correlates very well to Modern MMORPG's. Theres nothing wrong with Kesha, or Linkin Park, or any other mainstream artist, But they shouldnt be the only acceptable model of mainstream. The mainstream should be felxible enough to accomadate a few other bands or MMO's that try something a bit different.
.....
If alternative bands took $20 mil and 3-5 years to get ready to play out, there'd be a lot fewer alternatives available.
And that'd still be reasonably cheap for an MMO.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Its just like mainstream music, it correlates very well to Modern MMORPG's. Theres nothing wrong with Kesha, or Linkin Park, or any other mainstream artist, But they shouldnt be the only acceptable model of mainstream. The mainstream should be felxible enough to accomadate a few other bands or MMO's that try something a bit different.
.....
If alternative bands took $20 mil and 3-5 years to get ready to play out, there'd be a lot fewer alternatives available.
And that'd still be reasonably cheap for an MMO.
While I cant argue your point, I do feel that reaches a more serious fundamental problem.
When did making an MMO become solely a business decision to generate profit? Before you would have games being developed as a product of both profit and creative output, why the latter is removed entirely from the process?
When did making an MMO become solely a business decision to generate profit? Before you would have games being developed as a product of both profit and creative output, why the latter is removed entirely from the process?
That is really unfair to the developers. It's simply a matter of how much is expected of a game these days.
The budgets for MMOs back then were a fraction of what they are now because to reach player expectations when it comes to polish and quality enormous sums are needed. If you need your game to bring in $500,000 then there is much less pressure on you to at least get the money back then if you need the game to generate $500,000,000.
Originally posted by nethaniah
Seriously Farmville? Yeah I think it's great. In a World where half our population is dying of hunger the more fortunate half is spending their time harvesting food that doesn't exist.
When did making an MMO become solely a business decision to generate profit? Before you would have games being developed as a product of both profit and creative output, why the latter is removed entirely from the process?
That is really unfair to the developers. It's simply a matter of how much is expected of a game these days.
The budgets for MMOs back then were a fraction of what they are now because to reach player expectations when it comes to polish and quality enormous sums are needed. If you need your game to bring in $500,000 then there is much less pressure on you to at least get the money back then if you need the game to generate $500,000,000.
Oddly enough, I agree with you, it is unfair.
Its unfair that we have corporate money being tossed into every MMO and raising the expectations from the publisher/investor's end.
The players expectations can be inflated as well but where does that stem from? Certainly not the casual forum goer or MMO fan.
The expectation is inflated time and time again, BY the publisher, BY the marketing.
So again I agree with you, but your claiming we as the consumer are the ones being unfair to developers and thats wrong. The ones being unfair are the ones with the money who needlessly market and inflate the hype.
So again I agree with you, but your claiming we as the consumer are the ones being unfair to developers and thats wrong. The ones being unfair are the ones with the money who needlessly market and inflate the hype.
It is a free market. It is their money .... I don't see what is so unfair if devs want to spend their money doing commercial. You don't have to look at it. It is a free world, you know.
And it goes both ways. Consumers are not "unfair" to devs. Devs don't have to produce anything if they don't want to. They can go for some other businesses.
Well, I don't know where this conversation has gone talking about investing... But I agree with the title of this thread, I remember playing original EQ and thinking of how vast and complex games would be in the future. only here I am and they don't seem to have advanced at all in that direction.
Money may have a lot to do with it I guess a majority of people are dull and simple. so dull and simple rules.
So again I agree with you, but your claiming we as the consumer are the ones being unfair to developers and thats wrong. The ones being unfair are the ones with the money who needlessly market and inflate the hype.
It is a free market. It is their money .... I don't see what is so unfair if devs want to spend their money doing commercial. You don't have to look at it. It is a free world, you know.
And it goes both ways. Consumers are not "unfair" to devs. Devs don't have to produce anything if they don't want to. They can go for some other businesses.
Yeah because the free market works amazing and is never corrupted or controlled.
Yeah, I've been wishing for an exact copy of DAoC, just with new graphics/sounds. EQ would be nice too. I used to play them both...good times, good times. That's what I was hoping for with EQ2, then EQN, and also add in a little better ui. I remember in DAoC you had people asking all the time "How do I leave the game?" lol
What I want is the EQ philosophy back into the mmo genre. I don't necessarily want the same game mechanics that it had with better graphics. I want a top heavy PVE centered gameplay where the AI is actually a bit intelligent based off certain variables. A player must react to a smarter AI mob because spamming the same button rotation won't get you a victory. Here are some points of what the EQ philosophy I am talking about...
1. Community First: How did EQ produce this? Forced grouping and a lot of down time. I enjoy grouping content more so than solo content. The down time could be minimal.
2. Challenge: You earned what you got in EQ. Whether that's hours of camping a PH just for a named mob where that named mob has a small drop rate %. Or whether, the danger of travel. Kithacor Woods at night, you had to get Sow or the Rhino's and Lions would catch you if in the Overthere or West Commonlands.
3. Variety: Class and Race selection as fantastic. Tons of variety. There were a lot of different spells and skills that could be obtained as well. Also, there wasn't necessarily a set zone path to level in either. There was a good array of different level mobs in each zone most of the time.
I think adding those 3 simple things into your philosophy of mmo game design will go a long way. I truly believe there is a market now more than ever for focusing on this type of game design. It may not be millions of subs but it would bring a decent community niche to make the game memorable and what it's meant for.
So again I agree with you, but your claiming we as the consumer are the ones being unfair to developers and thats wrong. The ones being unfair are the ones with the money who needlessly market and inflate the hype.
It is a free market. It is their money .... I don't see what is so unfair if devs want to spend their money doing commercial. You don't have to look at it. It is a free world, you know.
And it goes both ways. Consumers are not "unfair" to devs. Devs don't have to produce anything if they don't want to. They can go for some other businesses.
Yeah because the free market works amazing and is never corrupted or controlled.
Yeah because controlled markets work amazing and are never corrupted to the advantage of those making the rules. So what is your good alternative to the free market? I prefer the free market because I'm a free thinker able to make my own decisions and choose when to spend my money on a product. If they want to spend a million of their own dollars on a marketing stunt that's their business. If they offer a product (in this case a game) that I like and enjoy I'll buy it if the price is right. If not, then I won't.
I'll also point out that low budget or Indie doesn't ensure quality either. I've seen plenty of Indie crap on Steam that is total rubbish and not worth the asking price in my opinion.
Free thinker? No such thing really I believe you would have to have free will for that to work.
The original EQ was just such a classic Roleplaying Game. When you look at how MMO's are built now adays, most just dont have that classic Roleplaying feel to them. They try to throw everything at the player too fast, and force-feed this idea that the player is a hero from the very start of the game.
In Classic EQ, a rat could kill you at level 1, you would miss swings, your spells would fizzle, your mana would fluctuate randomly like your magic was reluctant to work properly; you were a mess in other words.
You didnt start off killing a badass monster, you started off as all real hero's do, with merely a will and no way in sight but what random path you walked down.
You would talk to NPC's, read and listen to what they said carefully, and then you would talk back to them. It wasnt much, but if you chose to, you could roleplay your character to the NPC's, they felt alive and they always had something inspiring or intriguing to point out to you.
There wasnt a clear cut level above each enemies head, you would simply "Consider" the enemy, and the game would give you an estimate of what would happen in the fight, almost like a second consciousness in the game saying things like "Well you could try to kill it, but its defiently a gamble". It wasnt a cut and dry system, it wasnt reduced to hard numbers, it was a choice, one that you made not always knowing the complications of your actions, this was a REAL choice.
Then you would finally get proficient at what you were doing, you would start to hit the target more, you magic would grow stronger and more controlled. You'd get a pet maybe, and try to attack a small gnoll camp on your own. You would take a couple of them, and feel a sense of accomplishment when you almost had the fight in your favor, and then it would happen...
A Skeleton would come out of nowhere, just randomly wadering the zone to happen upon you in the midst of the hardest fight of your in game life, and in one strike he would take you down, proving to you that you were not that powerful, not yet, you were going to need help.
In a flash of black you would die and be without all your spells, knowledge, and gear. You would run back to your corpse, gather up all your belongings, relearn your spells, and take some time to learn from your mistakes, or maybe not, but eventually with enough time you would.
You might get a friend to help you next time, or maybe just a stranger, maybe by luck a passerby would buff you with some helpful enchantments, you didnt know, but you knew when you saw another player they were going through or - had gone through - alot of the same experiances of loss and challenge, and that alone made it part of the experiance. Other players werent constantly competing with you, they had enough competition in the world to worry about, and you were just another player in this universe's immense struggle.
This is what EQ was about, and all I want is that same game but with better graphics. A game rich with exploration, conflict, choices, and a sense of danger and philosophy. A game that is more than a show of numbers and who has the better gear, but an authentically immersive experiance.
Amen !
And I remember all the stuff that was annoying too. Before the UI changes with luclin (iirc) when my wizard was medding and the effing spellbook blocked the whole screen. - Dying in annoying spots, not being able to find my corpse (in Gfay LOL) and travelling through that forrest on the way to the keep with all the orcs, at night! omg. Seriously, alot of stuff was tough in EQ1, and risky, and made you nervous while playing, because of the risk involved. - But that is what made it great. I would absolutely replay it with better graphics. All the way until pop. The books to port around sucked. - again because it removed player interaction.
Anyway, racing for bosses, bodyblocking entrance in ssra, every little bit of drama - it was just so much better than never mmo's because it made me care about my server, and my guild, and interactions with other players mattered. - I would love to see an mmo that cut away all the instanced, convenience stuff, and forced player interaction again. - It surely wouldnt be for everyone, but no mmo has to be.
Also, imagine having other ways than phat loot to help progress the strength of your character. Those AA's, those grind groups, those hours of social banter with strangers.. oh yah, bring it back!
Comments
The question is was the text colored light blue, dark blue, white, yellow, or red?
A Will o Wisp scowls at you ready to attack.
A Qeynos Guard looks like he would wipe the floor with you.
You are contradicting yourself. If it is overkill, it is not fine. In fact, you are the only one i have seen defending something that not even the dev would defend.
Well, you apparently haven't watch any good movies (Avengers for example), or good games (like Deus Ex HE, or Tomb Raider) where it is fun from start to finish.
If you want hardship, it is your prerogative, but any dev who put even a bit of hardship in an entertainment product can expect me to go away.
And hardship is not "challenge". I like some challenge in a game, but boring (to me) parts .. no thanks! If i want to get bored, i can watch paint dry .. which in this case, a totally apt analogy to staring at a spellbook.
I totally agree with the OP.
It would be fun to see this but it would be a financial disaster for the developers. As Sovrath said this game have to stay afloat with max 100 000 subscribers. Furthermore the customer base is not there anymore EQ was viable as there where lots of young people that had played pen and paper RPGs or MUDs that accepted the idea that things should take time. I was working even then and could not spend 5 hours a night playing EQ and that was very negative for my EQ experience.
A game today where you are unable to do something worthwhile in say a 2 hour evening gaming session is dead on arrival, those of us that played EQ at launch does not have the time anymore and the younger gamers would never accept that kind of game design.
Chi puo dir com'egli arde é in picciol fuoco.
He who can describe the flame does not burn.
Petrarch
Yep.
TESO min running requirements is a 4quad PC. Walmart and Best Buy are selling computers with shitty laptop graphic cards in them and now with no upgradable graphic card slot. Until we get a CHEAP gaming system that works that the general public can easily find while buying burgers and pop there will be no advancement in mmorpg's. To be an mmo you need a player base. The player base has been cut off from the gaming world. The systems we're using are shit and we can't afford the systems that aren't shit. We aren't buying parts and putting them together in our basements. That's not how we do things these days. Someone needs to get on the fucking band wagon and fix this!
I would love to play an MMO with perma death.
PC developement for gaming is very inefficient. They just move on the biggest latest cards. They should have had a gaming standard platform for a few years and aimed to make games run on this and allow upscaling for those with better computers. I guess with competition it can't be helped. Not to mention Microsoft should have long ago started a lighter gaming edition of Windows.
You buy a console and you know the graphics and performance will get better with time as developers squeeze more and more out of the systems. PC you know you're system is already old and declining as soon as you build/buy it. Not to start a PC/console war because I do both.
100,000 subscribers is a good number but it is higher than what is required to keep many MMO profitable. Many smaller /older MMOs haven't seen 100,000 subscribers for years like; Age of Conan, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Star Trek Online, Pirates of the Burning Seas, and a ton of F2P Asian imports.
Success doesn't mean having the most customers, a reworked EQ1 would be a niche game and not meant to appeal to the MMO masses. It wouldn't require the the huge staff teams to develop and support, so lower staffing costs, lower hardware costs and lower support costs means less profits needed to stay afloat.
Sadly you are correct. I remember griefers back in UO were pretty ruthless, the difference though is they were few and far between and the majority of people would group up and hunt them down like the the pigs they were. These days griefers are a dime a dozen and most who are not would rather go about their business than go after them. And how about grouping? These dungeon finder things in game, how many times have you gotten into one and no one peeps a sound the entire dungeon? So much is wrong with MMO communities these days. I blame WoW for making it a job instead of a game or social event. Gear inspection in 20!
Not by official Blizz statistics. Only 9% of the characters made are HC. Anyway you cut it, HC is a small (though still sizeable) part of D3.
I dont know the official statistics, nor am I inclined to agree/disagree with "Only 9%" comment, but I believe what Ludwik is referring to is the "scene" not the player base.
For example, only a fraction of people play Super Smash Bros competitively, yet the scene surrounding MLG/competitive Smash is huge, and is constantly being supported by companies, sub-groups, and has its own serious following on Twitch and other gaming sites.
Yet Im sure if you asked the average smash player if they know about the UFGTX Melee Finals this past weekend, they would have no idea what your talking about, because they arent involved in that scene.
Again, this doesnt mean competitive smash players are better, more intelligent, or even more significant in their passion for the game. It just means they have a very specific, finely crafted world thats beyond the mainstream realm of smash bros. The whole point of this post and specifically even this thread, is that its not better or worse to be mainstream, but there should be options for people.
Its just like mainstream music, it correlates very well to Modern MMORPG's. Theres nothing wrong with Kesha, or Linkin Park, or any other mainstream artist, But they shouldnt be the only acceptable model of mainstream. The mainstream should be felxible enough to accomadate a few other bands or MMO's that try something a bit different.
Its why I enjoyed ESO for the time that I did, because even though it was mainstream, it was just A BIT different enough to keep my attention for a month. Granted after a month I was done with it, but at least it gave me that much.
Desktop PC's are very efficient unlike devices that cannot be upgraded. You can replace one part and make it work like new but with a mobile device or anything that cannot be upgrade you have to toss the device.
Also, not sure what PC games you are playing that requires you to upgrade all the time. Last I checked PC games stop pushing graphics years ago. There are only two franchise that I can think of that require monster specs anymore. Battle Field games and Crytek engine games.. Oh and I guess skyrim..
So everyone singles out three games then complains about how they need beast video cards to play them. Well, you could play them on console where they look like crap I suppose or you can play them like this..
All these people buying crazy fancy video cards and ram do it so they like 3 games in 4k on 3 IPS screens. For the rest of you a 200 dollar graphics will play many games for years to come.
This sure reads like some 'Kids these days' posts.
I remember the UO griefers were enough to shock the developers (who didn't play that way), and caused turmoil and game changes. They were certainly a factor for those folks who left en masse for Trammel.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
If alternative bands took $20 mil and 3-5 years to get ready to play out, there'd be a lot fewer alternatives available.
And that'd still be reasonably cheap for an MMO.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
While I cant argue your point, I do feel that reaches a more serious fundamental problem.
When did making an MMO become solely a business decision to generate profit? Before you would have games being developed as a product of both profit and creative output, why the latter is removed entirely from the process?
That is really unfair to the developers. It's simply a matter of how much is expected of a game these days.
The budgets for MMOs back then were a fraction of what they are now because to reach player expectations when it comes to polish and quality enormous sums are needed. If you need your game to bring in $500,000 then there is much less pressure on you to at least get the money back then if you need the game to generate $500,000,000.
Oddly enough, I agree with you, it is unfair.
Its unfair that we have corporate money being tossed into every MMO and raising the expectations from the publisher/investor's end.
The players expectations can be inflated as well but where does that stem from? Certainly not the casual forum goer or MMO fan.
The expectation is inflated time and time again, BY the publisher, BY the marketing.
An MMO shouldnt need to generate $500,000,000, SWTOR didnt need a Freeze Flash Mob event to make the game good, the publishers probably spent a million dollars on that event alone.
So again I agree with you, but your claiming we as the consumer are the ones being unfair to developers and thats wrong. The ones being unfair are the ones with the money who needlessly market and inflate the hype.
It is a free market. It is their money .... I don't see what is so unfair if devs want to spend their money doing commercial. You don't have to look at it. It is a free world, you know.
And it goes both ways. Consumers are not "unfair" to devs. Devs don't have to produce anything if they don't want to. They can go for some other businesses.
Well, I don't know where this conversation has gone talking about investing... But I agree with the title of this thread, I remember playing original EQ and thinking of how vast and complex games would be in the future. only here I am and they don't seem to have advanced at all in that direction.
Money may have a lot to do with it I guess a majority of people are dull and simple. so dull and simple rules.
Yeah because the free market works amazing and is never corrupted or controlled.
What I want is the EQ philosophy back into the mmo genre. I don't necessarily want the same game mechanics that it had with better graphics. I want a top heavy PVE centered gameplay where the AI is actually a bit intelligent based off certain variables. A player must react to a smarter AI mob because spamming the same button rotation won't get you a victory. Here are some points of what the EQ philosophy I am talking about...
1. Community First: How did EQ produce this? Forced grouping and a lot of down time. I enjoy grouping content more so than solo content. The down time could be minimal.
2. Challenge: You earned what you got in EQ. Whether that's hours of camping a PH just for a named mob where that named mob has a small drop rate %. Or whether, the danger of travel. Kithacor Woods at night, you had to get Sow or the Rhino's and Lions would catch you if in the Overthere or West Commonlands.
3. Variety: Class and Race selection as fantastic. Tons of variety. There were a lot of different spells and skills that could be obtained as well. Also, there wasn't necessarily a set zone path to level in either. There was a good array of different level mobs in each zone most of the time.
I think adding those 3 simple things into your philosophy of mmo game design will go a long way. I truly believe there is a market now more than ever for focusing on this type of game design. It may not be millions of subs but it would bring a decent community niche to make the game memorable and what it's meant for.
Free thinker? No such thing really I believe you would have to have free will for that to work.
Amen !
And I remember all the stuff that was annoying too. Before the UI changes with luclin (iirc) when my wizard was medding and the effing spellbook blocked the whole screen. - Dying in annoying spots, not being able to find my corpse (in Gfay LOL) and travelling through that forrest on the way to the keep with all the orcs, at night! omg. Seriously, alot of stuff was tough in EQ1, and risky, and made you nervous while playing, because of the risk involved. - But that is what made it great. I would absolutely replay it with better graphics. All the way until pop. The books to port around sucked. - again because it removed player interaction.
Anyway, racing for bosses, bodyblocking entrance in ssra, every little bit of drama - it was just so much better than never mmo's because it made me care about my server, and my guild, and interactions with other players mattered. - I would love to see an mmo that cut away all the instanced, convenience stuff, and forced player interaction again. - It surely wouldnt be for everyone, but no mmo has to be.
Also, imagine having other ways than phat loot to help progress the strength of your character. Those AA's, those grind groups, those hours of social banter with strangers.. oh yah, bring it back!