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Reasons why NB DW/BOW stamina builds will never be competitive compared to other class archetypes
Doriangray1
Member Posts: 53
I have taken this from Reddit. I'm only copying it here with the purpose of informing future players since I agree with the OP...considering that nightblade archetype skill...dark cloak.. is still bugged two months after into the release of the game, you can assume how bugged this class really is. I feel really disappointed considering I did a 6 month sub. I hate to be a burden to my guild mates after putting so much effort into my Nightblade. After reading this if you still have any doubts, refer to this thread > http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/dk-solos-craglorn/... I dare you to the same thing this dk is doing with a nightblade or even just come close to what he is doing for that matter before shouting " L2P "... lol.
http://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/26ozbw/reasons_why_nb_dwbow_stamina_builds_will_never_be/
Here's the OP's opinion:
Veteran Rank 12 Night Blade here. Close to max gear for Dual Wield NB bow (PVP V12 Dominion Bow, Hundings rage set , Nights silence set, Night mother set , epic/legendary etc. At least 54% weapon critical for bow and dw. I know this class inside out (in this stamina department at least).
When I chose this class I wanted to Dual wield/bow and I've stuck to it because that's how I see NB's intended to play and how I want to play it. I've always tried to push it to the maximum efficiency even when I know that ill never beat a casters DPS. Done everything in this game except for fourth boss AA trial and the entire Hel Ra.This will be a long post. If anyone is interested in what the Maximum effectiveness of a Dual wield/BOW DPS NB can achieve in a group dungeon or trials compared to other classes then read on.
Heres a small class breakdown of what I've seen in the game regarding PVE in the trials and dungeons in Craglorn.
Sorcerer- Designed to be used as casters can wear light armor and be competitive by achieving dps only second to fire destro dk and OP banner. Their class serves a purpose.
Dragonknight- Designed to be tanky/some dps but completely OP at the moment with best mitagation sustain and DPS by far. No need to say more, although I rather ESO not nerf them and just balances classes to their level. Their class obviously serves a purpose and in trials (almost necessary.)
Templar- Designed to be healers/tanky. Don't know too much about temp skills but they do their job well in PVE trials from what I've seen. Their class serves a purpose as well.
Nightblades- Designed to be Dual wield/bow users with high single target sustained damage. Does not compare to the Single target damage of sorc's caster sustainable dps as a NB bow user or DW user. This class serves no purpose if you play as dual wield/bow in groups because other classes can DPS better. If I wanted to play a caster DPS I would have rolled a sorc. Even though I can match or out DPS really casual Sorcs and Dks, for the amount of time, effort, and theory crafting that I put into my Nightblade, I honestly think I should be doing way more especially since NB was designed to be played like this.
Reasons why NB Stamina builds will never beat sorc casters or any caster's DPS even when pushed to the maximum with gear and skill selection.
Bow DPS- You can only use bows to maximum effectiveness if you are at max range while damaging enemy because you want that bow passive that gives you damage bonus when at max range. Even at max range, the DPS is still lower than sorcs because magicka abilities do a crap ton more damage per cast. The problem with these trials is alot of the times the enemies would be in your face and thats when your DPS takes a hit. If you weapon swap, thats already a huge decrease in DPS on the target because weapon swap although it has gotten better, is still not instantaneous like it should be and really the delay is not worth it to weapon swap when getting an enemy down RIGHT NOW is crucial for the survivability of the group. A class like sorcs on the other hand, do the same sustainable damage no matter what range they are and that DPS is better than what NBs can achieve with bow at max range.
Dual Wield DPS- Dual wield single target DPS is really not great for hard dungeons especially when you factor in the number of bosses or enemies that have to be downed from RANGE. I use dual wield for my AOE skills like steel tornado/ power extraction. Also for craglorn, if your running as DPS in your group and you dont have decent AOE spammable spell, you might as well just consider yourself a complete burden and waste of a party slot because all trash requires high AOE Damage.
Siphoning Strikes- I hate and love this skill. IMO this is one of the best NB abilities in the game as it allows you to have very high sustain on magicka and stamina and this is especially important for stamina based builds because you need to spam stamina abilities as well as do things like dodge roll and cc break. I hate this skill because it requires a sacrifice of 22% of my weapon damage and spell power in order for it to be used. Why is the damage nerf so high? Especially since NB's in general are already lacking in the DPS department compared to other classes. But I must use it for long Boss fights because 0 stamina= crap DPS.
Haste- On paper, this skill sounds like one of the best abilities weapon users could have in the game and is one of the reasons that drew me into choosing NBs because I like to attack as fast as possible in RPGs. But to achieve maximum DPS in this game you have to use basic attacks while animation canceling with weapon skills like venom arrow to shoot 2 arrows in a second. I don't even know even if they fixed this skill that it would give me any noticeable increase because of the way DPS is achieved in this game by animation canceling. So even after this skill is fixed this skill might be completely useless. Sorcs on the other hand get a skill like Surge that gives them something like +90 weapon damage for 30 seconds allowing them to achieve the highest weapon damage possible in the game for Single Target stamina abilities as well. So please explain to me why Sorcerers that are already the best casters can also achieve the highest possible weapon damage for single target( don't count power extraction) when NB's must be hit with a -22% weapon damage toggle in order to do any real sustainable dps with Stamina abilities.
Mark Target- Reduces enemy armor and spell resistance by 75% but also reduces your own armor and spell resist by the same amount. Again another example of a skill for night blade that has the potential to be amazing like siphoning strikes but comes at a huge drawback and not a great advantage considering mobs dont have high armor. Sorcs surge and Dk molten weapons increase their weapon damage with no drawbacks and even pass it on to the entire group while Mark Target can only be seen by the NB caster and only benefit the NB caster who does the worst DPS anyway.
PVP(off topic)- Small rant on PVP:
In a huge open enviroment like Cyrodill, really there is nothing comparable to the ability Bolt Escape. This ability might not be that powerful in a small enclosed area but we are in a huuuuge area where you can blink 20 miles away in a second to escape from danger and regenerate all your resources to reengage and destroy your enemy in an instant and rinse repeat especially with the burst potential of sorcs. Sorcs argue that they are squishy light armor so they need this but from what I've seen veteran 12 light armor sorcs with 3k+ hp are just as tanky as anyone else and they have bolt escape...Compared to NBs that have a 2.9 second invisibility and even if you spammed it, is not really comparable to instantly moving 20 miles away with the speed of bolt escape. IMO they need to buff path of darkness to give us at least 50% movespeed and NOT ONLY ON THE EFFING TINY PATH but ALWAYS for like 10-20 seconds. One of the biggest annoyances in Cyrodill is that it feels like a walking simulator even if you have a fast horse the area is so big and you can't always teleport to keeps. I'm not sure why only sorcs are able to have this huge advantage compared to other classes to just generally enjoy the gameplay of cyrodill much more.Especially if you roll with a group of sorcs and you have like 1 or 2 members that aren't sorcs, you cant catch up to them and you feel like you are dragging them down because you can be as fast as them.
TLDR- At the current state of the game NB stamina builds ( the way NB's were mainly designed to be played IMO) will never be competitive compared to casters because:
-Bow does Crap DPS at close range, DW does crap DPS at any range, and no DPS when you have to run around.- -Caster do the same sustainable DPS with 1 hotbar at ANY range. -Magicka abilities do way more damage then stamina -Our best resource sustain ability siphoning strikes reduces our weapon damage by 22%. -Haste even when fixed may not do anything at all. To do to highest DPS in this game you need to achieve it by animation canceling. -Sorc's achieve way higher weapon damage then NBs with Surge. -Critical strike passive and others not working (not entirely sure) - Mark Target 75% armor reduction isnt a big deal because mobs don't have that much armor and it doesnt give you a big increase.
Offtopic - PVPing is much less enjoyable do to huge landscape unless you are a high level sorc with bolt escape. Running with a group of sorcs you feel like you are a slug compared to them and if you can't travel together efficiently as a group you feel like a burden.
I've spent alot of time on this game to get to V12 and have close to max gear but one thing I'm not going to do in this game is to re-roll a sorc or DK or play a caster NB with resto staff. If the next patch does not buff NB DW/BOW DPS builds to the level of a Sorc, DK or caster I'm unsubscribing."
http://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/26ozbw/reasons_why_nb_dwbow_stamina_builds_will_never_be/
Here's the OP's opinion:
Veteran Rank 12 Night Blade here. Close to max gear for Dual Wield NB bow (PVP V12 Dominion Bow, Hundings rage set , Nights silence set, Night mother set , epic/legendary etc. At least 54% weapon critical for bow and dw. I know this class inside out (in this stamina department at least).
When I chose this class I wanted to Dual wield/bow and I've stuck to it because that's how I see NB's intended to play and how I want to play it. I've always tried to push it to the maximum efficiency even when I know that ill never beat a casters DPS. Done everything in this game except for fourth boss AA trial and the entire Hel Ra.This will be a long post. If anyone is interested in what the Maximum effectiveness of a Dual wield/BOW DPS NB can achieve in a group dungeon or trials compared to other classes then read on.
Heres a small class breakdown of what I've seen in the game regarding PVE in the trials and dungeons in Craglorn.
Sorcerer- Designed to be used as casters can wear light armor and be competitive by achieving dps only second to fire destro dk and OP banner. Their class serves a purpose.
Dragonknight- Designed to be tanky/some dps but completely OP at the moment with best mitagation sustain and DPS by far. No need to say more, although I rather ESO not nerf them and just balances classes to their level. Their class obviously serves a purpose and in trials (almost necessary.)
Templar- Designed to be healers/tanky. Don't know too much about temp skills but they do their job well in PVE trials from what I've seen. Their class serves a purpose as well.
Nightblades- Designed to be Dual wield/bow users with high single target sustained damage. Does not compare to the Single target damage of sorc's caster sustainable dps as a NB bow user or DW user. This class serves no purpose if you play as dual wield/bow in groups because other classes can DPS better. If I wanted to play a caster DPS I would have rolled a sorc. Even though I can match or out DPS really casual Sorcs and Dks, for the amount of time, effort, and theory crafting that I put into my Nightblade, I honestly think I should be doing way more especially since NB was designed to be played like this.
Reasons why NB Stamina builds will never beat sorc casters or any caster's DPS even when pushed to the maximum with gear and skill selection.
Bow DPS- You can only use bows to maximum effectiveness if you are at max range while damaging enemy because you want that bow passive that gives you damage bonus when at max range. Even at max range, the DPS is still lower than sorcs because magicka abilities do a crap ton more damage per cast. The problem with these trials is alot of the times the enemies would be in your face and thats when your DPS takes a hit. If you weapon swap, thats already a huge decrease in DPS on the target because weapon swap although it has gotten better, is still not instantaneous like it should be and really the delay is not worth it to weapon swap when getting an enemy down RIGHT NOW is crucial for the survivability of the group. A class like sorcs on the other hand, do the same sustainable damage no matter what range they are and that DPS is better than what NBs can achieve with bow at max range.
Dual Wield DPS- Dual wield single target DPS is really not great for hard dungeons especially when you factor in the number of bosses or enemies that have to be downed from RANGE. I use dual wield for my AOE skills like steel tornado/ power extraction. Also for craglorn, if your running as DPS in your group and you dont have decent AOE spammable spell, you might as well just consider yourself a complete burden and waste of a party slot because all trash requires high AOE Damage.
Siphoning Strikes- I hate and love this skill. IMO this is one of the best NB abilities in the game as it allows you to have very high sustain on magicka and stamina and this is especially important for stamina based builds because you need to spam stamina abilities as well as do things like dodge roll and cc break. I hate this skill because it requires a sacrifice of 22% of my weapon damage and spell power in order for it to be used. Why is the damage nerf so high? Especially since NB's in general are already lacking in the DPS department compared to other classes. But I must use it for long Boss fights because 0 stamina= crap DPS.
Haste- On paper, this skill sounds like one of the best abilities weapon users could have in the game and is one of the reasons that drew me into choosing NBs because I like to attack as fast as possible in RPGs. But to achieve maximum DPS in this game you have to use basic attacks while animation canceling with weapon skills like venom arrow to shoot 2 arrows in a second. I don't even know even if they fixed this skill that it would give me any noticeable increase because of the way DPS is achieved in this game by animation canceling. So even after this skill is fixed this skill might be completely useless. Sorcs on the other hand get a skill like Surge that gives them something like +90 weapon damage for 30 seconds allowing them to achieve the highest weapon damage possible in the game for Single Target stamina abilities as well. So please explain to me why Sorcerers that are already the best casters can also achieve the highest possible weapon damage for single target( don't count power extraction) when NB's must be hit with a -22% weapon damage toggle in order to do any real sustainable dps with Stamina abilities.
Mark Target- Reduces enemy armor and spell resistance by 75% but also reduces your own armor and spell resist by the same amount. Again another example of a skill for night blade that has the potential to be amazing like siphoning strikes but comes at a huge drawback and not a great advantage considering mobs dont have high armor. Sorcs surge and Dk molten weapons increase their weapon damage with no drawbacks and even pass it on to the entire group while Mark Target can only be seen by the NB caster and only benefit the NB caster who does the worst DPS anyway.
PVP(off topic)- Small rant on PVP:
In a huge open enviroment like Cyrodill, really there is nothing comparable to the ability Bolt Escape. This ability might not be that powerful in a small enclosed area but we are in a huuuuge area where you can blink 20 miles away in a second to escape from danger and regenerate all your resources to reengage and destroy your enemy in an instant and rinse repeat especially with the burst potential of sorcs. Sorcs argue that they are squishy light armor so they need this but from what I've seen veteran 12 light armor sorcs with 3k+ hp are just as tanky as anyone else and they have bolt escape...Compared to NBs that have a 2.9 second invisibility and even if you spammed it, is not really comparable to instantly moving 20 miles away with the speed of bolt escape. IMO they need to buff path of darkness to give us at least 50% movespeed and NOT ONLY ON THE EFFING TINY PATH but ALWAYS for like 10-20 seconds. One of the biggest annoyances in Cyrodill is that it feels like a walking simulator even if you have a fast horse the area is so big and you can't always teleport to keeps. I'm not sure why only sorcs are able to have this huge advantage compared to other classes to just generally enjoy the gameplay of cyrodill much more.Especially if you roll with a group of sorcs and you have like 1 or 2 members that aren't sorcs, you cant catch up to them and you feel like you are dragging them down because you can be as fast as them.
TLDR- At the current state of the game NB stamina builds ( the way NB's were mainly designed to be played IMO) will never be competitive compared to casters because:
-Bow does Crap DPS at close range, DW does crap DPS at any range, and no DPS when you have to run around.- -Caster do the same sustainable DPS with 1 hotbar at ANY range. -Magicka abilities do way more damage then stamina -Our best resource sustain ability siphoning strikes reduces our weapon damage by 22%. -Haste even when fixed may not do anything at all. To do to highest DPS in this game you need to achieve it by animation canceling. -Sorc's achieve way higher weapon damage then NBs with Surge. -Critical strike passive and others not working (not entirely sure) - Mark Target 75% armor reduction isnt a big deal because mobs don't have that much armor and it doesnt give you a big increase.
Offtopic - PVPing is much less enjoyable do to huge landscape unless you are a high level sorc with bolt escape. Running with a group of sorcs you feel like you are a slug compared to them and if you can't travel together efficiently as a group you feel like a burden.
I've spent alot of time on this game to get to V12 and have close to max gear but one thing I'm not going to do in this game is to re-roll a sorc or DK or play a caster NB with resto staff. If the next patch does not buff NB DW/BOW DPS builds to the level of a Sorc, DK or caster I'm unsubscribing."
Rubber duck is incapable of hate.
" The extinction of Rubber Ducks will bring forth the end of our days. "
Comments
Destro/Resto seems to be the way most people are running in Craglorn now, regardless of class. I wanted to play a tanky paladin type Templar but found going 7/7 cloth and R/D was so much faster and easier.
As you said, I hope they can adjust the difficulty toward making more (all, ideally) classes and builds viable choices. With the way the VR game is designed, most people who do stick around for it are going to go for the path of least resistance. I hope also, that they don't need to nerf existing classes, but can rather buff those that are lagging behind in power and options (and therefore, fun).
I like what you said " path of least resistance " . I became disappointed in my Nightblade class because the abilities just seemed weak.
What I often like to do after I get used to a games mechanics is go off and test different abilities on like monsters maybe two levels below and analyze how strong different builds are. I just could not justify using most any Nightblade abilities.
Now I haven't tested everything ( I only had so many points to spend ).
With the points I had, I found Dual Weld stronger than Nightblade. I think I found Heavy armor better than Medium Armor as long as I didn't care about stealth. My DOTS seem to be a worthless strike of a key as they did partially no damage over time. I say think, because I didn't have the points to spend in proving this for sure.
My close range sorc has the hardest time killing NBs in Cyrodiil. I'm 40+ and use mostly medium armor to avoid high overcharge stats, but I've killed up to VR5 sorc/temp (javelin crutch)/DK (standard crutch). Mainly using better tactics. NB kills me almost instantly if they are VR1+. I almost killed a VR11 Temp the other day three times, but they healed all hp so I just ran. This is because I'm built more tanky and survive rather than because I deal a ton of damage.
Since I've put no points in mana, my sorc skills take too much mp to be OP. The problem comes with builds that have insane resources AND defense. Across the board, make heavy armor lower all regens/increase spell cost a bit add health. Medium armor neutral+stam. Light armor increase regen/spell cost+mp things etc. If they balance the gear things should workout.
Leaving aside specific NB class abilities - which, I agree, are lackluster compared to the other 3 - there is a fundamental problem with any build that isn't magicka based... and the only two weapons that are enhanced by a magicka build are destruction and healing staves.
With a magicka build you only have to worry about maxing one resource and have plenty of points - 49 in many cases - to put into health. Not only does magicka increase the damage of both your class and weapon abilities it also increases the damage of the basic weapon attacks.
Using any weapons other than those force you into situations where you have to choose whether to stack stamina for weapon damage and weapon abilities or magicka for class abilities and damage. You CAN try to stack both but that will leave you with a very low health pool... trying to balance all 3 is pointless since you'll have less than optimal everything.
There are class and weapon balancing issues -- there always are and always will be in any MMO -- but the underlying problem is the minority of abilties and weapon damage that rely on stamina. Personally, I think they should do away with stamina as a resource for abilities or weapon damage and just make it the resource pool for all the other things it also affects: sprint, stealth, dodge, bloc, interrupt, CC break... it'd be a good first step toward balancing.
As it is, any class not using destro and or healing staves is gimped... and this also includes the NB which are even now viable when played with a destro staff.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Not going to attempt wading through that wall of text!
As long as I have fun, I don't care what class is uber or what class is gimped. I play for fun, not as a competitive sport.
Out of curiosity, what class do you play with what weapons... and what is your max level currently?
The reason I ask is because many find themselves re-speccing once they start doing VR content in the other alliance areas when they discover that what got them through 1-50 no longer works in VR content.
IMHO, 1-50 you can do the content as designed (i.e. solo for solo content and group for group content) with just about any class with any weapons... VR play can be a rude awakening when you are no longer able to solo quite a bit of solo content and not many want you to fill one of the two DPS spots in VR dungeons... both of those are things that detract from the plain basic fun factor.
It's not just a competitive PVP thing people who legitimately complain about NBs are talking about. As a matter of fact, NBs are actually better in PVP one on one.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
This basically falls into that realm where socialization, group mechanics and basic "fun"damentals are completely tossed in the garbage.
Adding things like time trials, rage timers, leaderboards, and any other sort of "rush mechanic" the content basically force players into certain specs and roles and there are always those who are cast aside or are forever in the "waiting to be balanced queue"
People don't group for fun... they group to "win" or accomplish a goal...
This is such a broken mechanic is today's gaming landscape.
Want to group you MUST be ABC spec, and MUST be XYZ Class and MUST use 123 Set gear...
Single target melee DPS ALWAYS loses here... Groups, min/maxers, type A douches always want sustainable AOE Ranged. For one they can just sit back casually moving side to side avoiding attacks that seldom come their way as opposed to the Melee range character that needs to damn near replace a keyboard every session due to sheer amount of keystrokes needed to play at that range effectively.
As the OP and the OOP stated, NB's have some great skills that have such unfortunate drawbacks it makes using them almost pointless.
These things wouldn't be such a problem if they took out all the "rush mechanics" and just let people play... While you will still likely have those players that want to do a dungeon that normally takes 60 minutes in 10, the game doesn't force you to do so and you don't have to shun your friends and guildmates because they chose a class they like to play as opposed to a class they are forced to.
What are your other Hobbies?
Gaming is Dirt Cheap compared to this...
Any graphical, audio, or gameplay restrictions not seen in other mmos but found in FFXIV can be blamed on one thing.
PS3
It's not relevant. Any game I have played since 1999 I have played for fun, and in all of them someone will always say character class X is weak compared to some other character class of equivalent level. I never care.
I completely agree with the above, however, the fundamental changes needed to put Stamina on par with Magicka will be significant.
The apparent imbalance between the 2 pools has been argued about since CBT, so it's not something new. Now that we're some time into the post-launch gameplay, it's becoming fairly clear that the apparent imbalance is real enough, specially in VR levels. Will it be enough to just tweak some spells/abilities via damage or resource consumption, or are deeper changes needed ? Time will tell...
Why do people so often say "never"?
Balance is ongoing and nerfs have already been rolled out. I only expect more. Class balance is the most heated discussion right now on the game's forums and ZOS has proven to respond to player feedback. Besides bug fixes, most of the changes to the game have come from player feedback. 2 classes and several weapon sets have serious troubles at vet ranks. This goes completely against the core concept of the game: To play how you want to play.
I understand these changes can't come fast enough but to think drastic changes will not come is incredibly naive. Players are doing exactly what players to: Take the path of least resistance. ZOS will no doubt make some paths harder and others easier. The players on the easiest path right now though will be the most vocal as they are about to be hit by a series of nerfs. The fact other skill lines separate from class will indirectly affect them too will only make the situation even more harsh sadly.
Even way back in beta players were crying for more pure stamina build options. New skill lines and weapons are planned for the future. ZoS may introduce 10,000 more bugs from now to then but they have proven already to not ignore such serious issues. They have already acknowledged many of the issues brought up here. When players a year from now read this tread they will laugh. This isn't a wild prediction. It is how most mmos go unless they absolutely suck at new updates (i.e. poorly run indie mmo's ... and Wow. lol).
You stay sassy!
This ^^^
I hate playing the same class as everyone else. So far, I've played mostly low level characters in ESO and I've had a blast with just about every setup. Hopefully I'll eventually get up to higher levels, but I'd rather focus on PvP than PvE at high levels anyway.
My one comment, though, is the second they nerf one of my builds so that it is no longer fun in regular game-play (I could care less about end-game min/max), is the second I unsubscribe.