People are associating skill based with action MMO it seems from the comments. While action MMO are flashy and fun, they have many negatives too. They have a much harder time implementing large scale raids, they tend to have a much worse community because of the constant button presses, they tend to have less character dependence.
Tab based system combined with trinity simply allow for an incredibly solid gameplay base that is extremely easy to build raid on top of or to build large scale open world content on top of.
Tab based systems also allow for incredibly rigid CC mechanics that just aren't possible without a tab system. Tab based systems give you control over specific mobs.
I'm pretty sure when people use the words "skill based combat system", OP, that you know that they're talking about a system that's not a tab-target system and that your point is that even in a tab-target system, knowing what abilities to use when, how to use combos, ect. are skills and that calling other types of systems skill based implies that other systems take no skill at all.
Is my assumption correct? The short answer I'm going to give in this post is horribly oversimplified and there are a lot more details, but my full answer depends on whether or not I'm on the right page here.
The short answer is that when you have a manual targeting system most people feel like it takes more skill, and so the name "skill-based system" evolved from that. Whether or not you personally agree is irrelevant so long as when people say "skill-based system" you understand that they're talking about something other than traditional tab-target systems. The term is rather ill-defined though.
you are correct.. and i know what people mean when they say "skill-based" combat...i just find it funny people label tab targetting games as zero skill games and ones with aiming and dodging "skill-based"..the OP is more of a rhetorical question
Which is why J37T3R is wrong in his short answer.
It's mostly used as a derogatory insult. If people want to describe a non-tab-target game they say twitch, action, aiming or telegraph based.
For what would be considered true skill base everything needs to be the same across the board. Same armor, same exact skills, same stats, see who comes out on top. That would be true skill base, but if even one of the things differs it is not truly skill (player) based, it becomes actual skills used based.
So all and all it is not really the twitch, skills used etc that makes the term skill based, it is equal in all things that makes something skill based. If each person has a 50% chance then the one on top is the better skill based player. Tab target or aiming just the same. Cause in a tab targeting system both have the same skill one on one of hitting the other.
I'm pretty sure when people use the words "skill based combat system", OP, that you know that they're talking about a system that's not a tab-target system and that your point is that even in a tab-target system, knowing what abilities to use when, how to use combos, ect. are skills and that calling other types of systems skill based implies that other systems take no skill at all.
Is my assumption correct? The short answer I'm going to give in this post is horribly oversimplified and there are a lot more details, but my full answer depends on whether or not I'm on the right page here.
The short answer is that when you have a manual targeting system most people feel like it takes more skill, and so the name "skill-based system" evolved from that. Whether or not you personally agree is irrelevant so long as when people say "skill-based system" you understand that they're talking about something other than traditional tab-target systems. The term is rather ill-defined though.
you are correct.. and i know what people mean when they say "skill-based" combat...i just find it funny people label tab targetting games as zero skill games and ones with aiming and dodging "skill-based"..the OP is more of a rhetorical question
Then I'm afraid I fail to see a point to it all. Some people find that sort of system boring. Some people make derogatory remarks at stuff they don't like. Sometimes these groups overlap.
- Knowledge/Experience : is what you know about the game, about class/champion, about equipment, how much damage and crowd control of any spell. This can help a lot in outplaying other players.
- Decision Making : is what you can do best in any situation, am I stronger or weaker than the other player? When do I retreat? When do I chase? Which next objective is best to take? Do you communicate the right informations to your team ? Was it worth? This is probably the most underrated skill.
Any of this^ is skill to me, and the best skill based game (to my opinion) actually should let the player have control over Knowledge AND Decision Making AND Mecanical Skill.
I think people are using the wrong wording on these terms. If I remember the definitions were:
Automatic (Auto Attack) -> after a single skill or attack is invoked, the character will stay attacking automatically.
Skill Attack -> you have to actually hit keystrokes in order to perform attacks. Both can be found in the old Tab targeting and newer Action based combat.
The first 2 describe attack mechanic, and the last 2 describe combat mechanic, and they can overlap.
Most MMO I played had 1 and 2 overlap, and they were all tab based.
All MMO that strictly belonged in category 2 without 1, were action based.
Originally posted by Niburu Darkfall Unholy Wars is Skillbased
so is every other MMO
No, because WoW and a bunchload of other MMO's had auto attack, or how A hunter in WoW start shooting with a right click on a target. That's not even a skill button "Spell".
Originally posted by nomotag When people say they want skilled combat, what they really mean is they want combat that can't be masted by a macro and or a really big math problem.
no MMO combat can be mastered with a macro or some math problem.. show me someone that is dominating arenas in any MMO that doesn't have a lot of skill in playing his/her character
Originally posted by Niburu Darkfall Unholy Wars is Skillbased
so is every other MMO
No, because WoW and a bunchload of other MMO's had auto attack, or how A hunter in WoW start shooting with a right click on a target. That's not even a skill button "Spell".
and your point?
I'm not sure where you're going with this now. You asked what the difference is and when people tell you, you dismiss it or tell them there is no difference. Are you still unclear or is it that you never really were interested in the difference in the first place?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
MMOs are not competitive games which require high levels of skill. Also there is a common misconception that skill = precise reactions and aiming. This is skill based on reflexes and developing habits to anticipate common scenarios in the game.
But there is more to it than pure reflexies. Some games require strategy which is a different kind of skill compared to shooters. I personally see MOBAs as the very definition of skill based games. They require quick reflexes but they also require tons of strategy. To me shooters seem like mindless shooting lol.
Anyway RPGs normally require more of a strategic type of skill. It is much more important to prioritise which skills you use and when. Of course, stats play a huge role but we are talknig here if given equal gear and character level. Also knowing which abilities to skill up and which items to use also takes some skill. But it's more about theorycrafting and preparation than something that actually happens during combat.
I still fail to see how a game like GW2 takes more skill than WoW in PvP. WoW arenas, given equal gear levels, used to be extremely competitive and required a lot of skill and good decision making. I always found it incredibly difficult to use all my skills efficiently and quickly. In GW2 style games you manage a much smaller number of skills and they don't even cost resources which takes out resource management out of the picture.
But yeah some parts of MMOs (arena based PvP) do take quite a bit of skill.
have you ever played any version of counter-strike ?
Far from mindless shooting... Highly competitive..
typically, people are referring to FPS or twitch skills when they say "skill based." Just about every MMORPG requires tactical planning skills and/or knowledge based decision making skills... Darkfall UW is a game that combines all of these elements of skill.. I wish I could name another example that requires all 3 skillsets in order to be effective...
I chose the Xfinity speed test because it does not reveal my ISP.
Originally posted by Niburu Darkfall Unholy Wars is Skillbased
so is every other MMO
No, because WoW and a bunchload of other MMO's had auto attack, or how A hunter in WoW start shooting with a right click on a target. That's not even a skill button "Spell".
and your point?
I'm not sure where you're going with this now. You asked what the difference is and when people tell you, you dismiss it or tell them there is no difference. Are you still unclear or is it that you never really were interested in the difference in the first place?
how does a game having auto attack in any shape or form say whether a game requires any amount of skill to play.. makes no sense.. it makes no sense that people claim any MMO requires no skill to play.. then people claim oh you can macro so and so game so it requires no skill yet you can macro/bot any game out there even FPS games have bots.. Tera bots, GW2 bots all games have bots/macros it says nothing to whether a game requires skill to play.. my point is ALL MMOs require skill to play well.. and my OP was a rhetorical question i know what people say they feel is the difference and don't find it makes any sense at all
Originally posted by nomotag When people say they want skilled combat, what they really mean is they want combat that can't be masted by a macro and or a really big math problem.
no MMO combat can be mastered with a macro or some math problem.. show me someone that is dominating arenas in any MMO that doesn't have a lot of skill in playing his/her character
Maybe not in PVP, but outside of PvP, every mmo I can recall could be masted with the right set of macros and triggers. It's been that way back to the first muds. I even did a few trigger macros myself back in the day. Basically if a computer can play the game better then a player can, then it's not what people would call skillful.
Originally posted by nomotag When people say they want skilled combat, what they really mean is they want combat that can't be masted by a macro and or a really big math problem.
no MMO combat can be mastered with a macro or some math problem.. show me someone that is dominating arenas in any MMO that doesn't have a lot of skill in playing his/her character
Originally posted by Niburu Darkfall Unholy Wars is Skillbased
so is every other MMO
No, because WoW and a bunchload of other MMO's had auto attack, or how A hunter in WoW start shooting with a right click on a target. That's not even a skill button "Spell".
and your point?
I'm not sure where you're going with this now. You asked what the difference is and when people tell you, you dismiss it or tell them there is no difference. Are you still unclear or is it that you never really were interested in the difference in the first place?
how does a game having auto attack in any shape or form say whether a game requires any amount of skill to play.. makes no sense.. it makes no sense that people claim any MMO requires no skill to play.. then people claim oh you can macro so and so game so it requires no skill yet you can macro/bot any game out there even FPS games have bots.. Tera bots, GW2 bots all games have bots/macros it says nothing to whether a game requires skill to play.. my point is ALL MMOs require skill to play well.. and my OP was a rhetorical question i know what people say they feel is the difference and don't find it makes any sense at all
Because you are just looking at one mechanic and not each game as a whole. Games that have manual targeting usually also have
- manual evasion
- no allnames or other artificial identifiers
- no or limited stealth, where hiding is something you as the player do and not a magic button click
and several other features that complement the manual targeting system. By their nature, they are far more oriented toward player ability weighing heavier in combat than character ability.
"my point is ALL MMOs require skill to play well"
No one is arguing that "only MMO with Feature X requires skill."
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
No one is arguing that "only MMO with Feature X requires skill."
actually many people on these forums have said many many times tab target games require zero skill or only action based games require skill i see it all the time
Originally posted by Popori I never do well in pvp so I just assume all MMOs are luck based.
Most of the time PVP is skill based, but always in the way people think. The skill on display in PVP is deception. A core elment of PVP is if your in a far fight, you have lost, so a good deal of it is trying to avoid fights with someone stronger then you well trying to pray on thous weaker then you and for that you can employ all kinds of mental tricks.
Saying that there's rampant cheating in DF right now is absolutely ignorant... A game with rampant cheating: ESO. A game with half-effective aimbots that used to have a wallhack problem: DFUW. AV did a bunch of sweeping bans and have been very active in policing these sorts of things... just trying to discredit a game that stole your lunch money...
I chose the Xfinity speed test because it does not reveal my ISP.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Comments
Yehp..I hate this argument... because everyone says "twitch" is skill. The only thing non-tab games give is aiming.
I tend to build my characters so that random number generators are pretty consistent... IE crit chance way high.
People are associating skill based with action MMO it seems from the comments. While action MMO are flashy and fun, they have many negatives too. They have a much harder time implementing large scale raids, they tend to have a much worse community because of the constant button presses, they tend to have less character dependence.
Tab based system combined with trinity simply allow for an incredibly solid gameplay base that is extremely easy to build raid on top of or to build large scale open world content on top of.
Tab based systems also allow for incredibly rigid CC mechanics that just aren't possible without a tab system. Tab based systems give you control over specific mobs.
Which is why J37T3R is wrong in his short answer.
It's mostly used as a derogatory insult. If people want to describe a non-tab-target game they say twitch, action, aiming or telegraph based.
For what would be considered true skill base everything needs to be the same across the board. Same armor, same exact skills, same stats, see who comes out on top. That would be true skill base, but if even one of the things differs it is not truly skill (player) based, it becomes actual skills used based.
So all and all it is not really the twitch, skills used etc that makes the term skill based, it is equal in all things that makes something skill based. If each person has a 50% chance then the one on top is the better skill based player. Tab target or aiming just the same. Cause in a tab targeting system both have the same skill one on one of hitting the other.
Then I'm afraid I fail to see a point to it all. Some people find that sort of system boring. Some people make derogatory remarks at stuff they don't like. Sometimes these groups overlap.
In LoL/Dota people often talk about :
- Knowledge/Experience : is what you know about the game, about class/champion, about equipment, how much damage and crowd control of any spell. This can help a lot in outplaying other players.
- Decision Making : is what you can do best in any situation, am I stronger or weaker than the other player? When do I retreat? When do I chase? Which next objective is best to take? Do you communicate the right informations to your team ? Was it worth? This is probably the most underrated skill.
- Mechanical Skill : Twitch reflexes, aiming, dodging, mouse accuracy etc.
Any of this^ is skill to me, and the best skill based game (to my opinion) actually should let the player have control over Knowledge AND Decision Making AND Mecanical Skill.
Most MMO I played had 1 and 2 overlap, and they were all tab based.
All MMO that strictly belonged in category 2 without 1, were action based.
so is every other MMO
and your point?
no MMO combat can be mastered with a macro or some math problem.. show me someone that is dominating arenas in any MMO that doesn't have a lot of skill in playing his/her character
I'm not sure where you're going with this now. You asked what the difference is and when people tell you, you dismiss it or tell them there is no difference. Are you still unclear or is it that you never really were interested in the difference in the first place?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
GW2 pvp is highly competitive.
and imo the most "skill-based" mmo out there as far as pvp goes.
every other tab targeting mmo out there is just memorization, pre-planning and knowing your macros/spells.
have you ever played any version of counter-strike ?
Far from mindless shooting... Highly competitive..
I chose the Xfinity speed test because it does not reveal my ISP.
how does a game having auto attack in any shape or form say whether a game requires any amount of skill to play.. makes no sense.. it makes no sense that people claim any MMO requires no skill to play.. then people claim oh you can macro so and so game so it requires no skill yet you can macro/bot any game out there even FPS games have bots.. Tera bots, GW2 bots all games have bots/macros it says nothing to whether a game requires skill to play.. my point is ALL MMOs require skill to play well.. and my OP was a rhetorical question i know what people say they feel is the difference and don't find it makes any sense at all
Maybe not in PVP, but outside of PvP, every mmo I can recall could be masted with the right set of macros and triggers. It's been that way back to the first muds. I even did a few trigger macros myself back in the day. Basically if a computer can play the game better then a player can, then it's not what people would call skillful.
nice skills that guy has.. you ever try multiboxing and doing more than standard mob grinding.. it's not easy to say the least
Because you are just looking at one mechanic and not each game as a whole. Games that have manual targeting usually also have
and several other features that complement the manual targeting system. By their nature, they are far more oriented toward player ability weighing heavier in combat than character ability.
"my point is ALL MMOs require skill to play well"
No one is arguing that "only MMO with Feature X requires skill."
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
actually many people on these forums have said many many times tab target games require zero skill or only action based games require skill i see it all the time
Most of the time PVP is skill based, but always in the way people think. The skill on display in PVP is deception. A core elment of PVP is if your in a far fight, you have lost, so a good deal of it is trying to avoid fights with someone stronger then you well trying to pray on thous weaker then you and for that you can employ all kinds of mental tricks.
Saying that there's rampant cheating in DF right now is absolutely ignorant... A game with rampant cheating: ESO. A game with half-effective aimbots that used to have a wallhack problem: DFUW. AV did a bunch of sweeping bans and have been very active in policing these sorts of things... just trying to discredit a game that stole your lunch money...
I chose the Xfinity speed test because it does not reveal my ISP.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre