WTF is up with the auto-walking feature?

gelraen

I've been so hyped for this game and devouring all of the information that I can on it. But then yesterday I came across a video detailing that you can set your character to auto-walk from one point to another.  WTF!   That's so lame, I can't believe they'd include a feature like that.  All of the trouble that they've gone to to create this detailed, immersive world.  All of talk they've been doing about creating a virtual reality where you can really live and get involved with the world.  Then they include an immersion breaking auto-pilot like that.  Doesn't that seem like a bizarre inclusion to anyone else?

Pretty disappointing, imho.

Kirexy

Played the beta, was initially disappointed by figuring it out. But, the auto walk feature isn't that bad because they made it logical. Taking the auto walk feature may not always be the optimal way to reach a destination, because auto walk always makes you travel by road. So if you want to go to a specific area, auto walk will sometimes take a looong turn instead of just crossing some kind of field.

 

What this does is that you essentially only use auto walk when you travel from town to town, since you would be using the roads anyway.  Most of the times, moving manually is the fastest way to travel. And you can also run into things using auto walk....

gelraen

Originally posted by Kirexy

Played the beta, was initially disappointed by figuring it out. But, the auto walk feature isn't that bad because they made it logical. Taking the auto walk feature may not always be the optimal way to reach a destination, because auto walk always makes you travel by road. So if you want to go to a specific area, auto walk will sometimes take a looong turn instead of just crossing some kind of field.

 

What this does is that you essentially only use auto walk when you travel from town to town, since you would be using the roads anyway.  Most of the times, moving manually is the fastest way to travel. And you can also run into things using auto walk....

There are two main reasons why I think this REALLY sucks in terms of keeping the world realistic and immersive. Firstly, I think it's very important to immersion to see other people in the world - whether they're just traveling between towns, fighting in nearby bushes, fishing on the side of a lake, whatever.  Just seeing people other makes it feel like a living breathing world.  The presence of an auto-walk feature undermines this immersion - making you doubt that the people running down the road are even playing game at all = most likely they are AFK running between point A and point B, breaking the illusion of the living world.

Secondly, there's nothing wrong with making the player actually control their way between destinations.  I've been lately playing a lot of the Archeage english alpha, and that game is quite hardcore about travel - you need to control your character across the land and sea pretty well all of the time.  The side effect of this is that Archeage is actually the most immersive MMO I've ever played (and I've played most).  Almost always when traveling to a distance destination, some sort of adventure will unfold and I'll get caught up with things happening in the world.  This goes a long way to making the world feel alive.

Anyway, I'm quite sad that Black Desert will go this route, and quite surprised.  It seems to me that everything else in the game is build so carefully with immersion in mind.  

Quesa

Originally posted by gelraen

Originally posted by Kirexy

Played the beta, was initially disappointed by figuring it out. But, the auto walk feature isn't that bad because they made it logical. Taking the auto walk feature may not always be the optimal way to reach a destination, because auto walk always makes you travel by road. So if you want to go to a specific area, auto walk will sometimes take a looong turn instead of just crossing some kind of field.

 

What this does is that you essentially only use auto walk when you travel from town to town, since you would be using the roads anyway.  Most of the times, moving manually is the fastest way to travel. And you can also run into things using auto walk....

There are two main reasons why I think this REALLy sucks in terms of keeping the world realistic and immersive. Firstly, I think it's very important to immersion to see other people in the world - whether they're just traveling between towns, fighting in nearby bushes, fishing on the side of a lake, whatever.  Just seeing people other makes it feel like a living breathing world.  The presence of an auto-walk feature undermines this immersion - making you doubt that the people running down the road are even playing game at all = most likely they are AFK running between point A and point B, breaking the illusion of the living world.

Secondly, there's nothing wrong with making the player actually control their way between destinations.  I've been lately playing a lot of the Archeage english alpha, and that game is quite hardcore about travel - you need to control your character across the land and sea pretty well all of the time.  The side effect of this is that Archeage is actually the most immersive MMO I've ever played (and I've played most).  Almost always when traveling to a distance destination, some sort of adventure will unfold and I'll get caught up with things happening in the world.  This goes a long way to making the world feel alive.

Anyway, I'm quite sad that Black Desert will go this route, and quite surprised.  It seems to me that everything else in the game is build so carefully with immersion in mind.  

Two problems that I see with your arguments.

1) People walking along a road or sidewalk is immersive.  It's far less immersive for us to see people running through other peoples yards, across the street or over rooftops.  If you think it's important to see people in the world to maintain immersion, then people walking along the road is far more immersive than say, teleporting from one area to another or hopping on a transport ship.  People walking along the road MAKES the world feel more immersive and alive, as if the world is living and breathing beyond the players characters running around jumping ever two seconds.

2) No, there is nothing wrong with having players manually move from one area to the other just as there is nothing wrong with having someone use a teleporter or transporter-on-rails to get from one point to the other.  How is teleporting immersive over seeing people traveling along a path designated for travel?  I actually think this is a novel idea where one can travel, at a much slower rate, automatically while still adding immersive elements to the game (the character becomes an immersive element during this travel) versus clicking on a teleporter to automatically transfer you to another area or hopping on a railed transport that runs back and forth.  

I think you are completely ignoring how this will improve the immersion and the look and feel of the game.

fascism

It's an asian mmo, of course it has an auto route system.

bcbully

I love auto path in games where I have to quest or travel long distances. Click where I'm headed, pan around and look at the scenery. 

 

I don't get why anyone would have a problem with it.

Quicksand

Originally posted by Quesa

Originally posted by gelraen

Originally posted by Kirexy

Played the beta, was initially disappointed by figuring it out. But, the auto walk feature isn't that bad because they made it logical. Taking the auto walk feature may not always be the optimal way to reach a destination, because auto walk always makes you travel by road. So if you want to go to a specific area, auto walk will sometimes take a looong turn instead of just crossing some kind of field.

 

What this does is that you essentially only use auto walk when you travel from town to town, since you would be using the roads anyway.  Most of the times, moving manually is the fastest way to travel. And you can also run into things using auto walk....

There are two main reasons why I think this REALLy sucks in terms of keeping the world realistic and immersive. Firstly, I think it's very important to immersion to see other people in the world - whether they're just traveling between towns, fighting in nearby bushes, fishing on the side of a lake, whatever.  Just seeing people other makes it feel like a living breathing world.  The presence of an auto-walk feature undermines this immersion - making you doubt that the people running down the road are even playing game at all = most likely they are AFK running between point A and point B, breaking the illusion of the living world.

Secondly, there's nothing wrong with making the player actually control their way between destinations.  I've been lately playing a lot of the Archeage english alpha, and that game is quite hardcore about travel - you need to control your character across the land and sea pretty well all of the time.  The side effect of this is that Archeage is actually the most immersive MMO I've ever played (and I've played most).  Almost always when traveling to a distance destination, some sort of adventure will unfold and I'll get caught up with things happening in the world.  This goes a long way to making the world feel alive.

Anyway, I'm quite sad that Black Desert will go this route, and quite surprised.  It seems to me that everything else in the game is build so carefully with immersion in mind.  

Two problems with your arguments.

1) People walking along a road or sidewalk is immersive.  It's far less immersive for us to see people running through other peoples yards, across the street or over rooftops.  If you think it's important to see people in the world to maintain immersion, then people walking along the road is far more immersive than say, teleporting from one area to another or hopping on a transport ship.  People walking along the road MAKES the world feel more immersive and alive, as if the world is living and breathing beyond the players characters running around jumping ever two seconds.

2) No, there is nothing wrong with having players manually move from one area to the other just as there is nothing wrong with having someone use a teleporter or transporter-on-rails to get from one point to the other.  How is teleporting immersive over seeing people traveling along a path designated for travel?  I actually think this is a novel idea where one can travel, at a much slower rate, automatically while still adding immersive elements to the game (the character becomes an immersive element during this travel) versus clicking on a teleporter to automatically transfer you to another area or hopping on a railed transport that runs back and forth.  

I think you are completely ignoring how this will improve the immersion and the look and feel of the game.

^This

Torcip

It's an Asian MMO, anything to make the botters job easier is awesome...

No but really, it's just something all Asian MMOs seem to have for some reason and that's likely not going to change.

gelraen

Originally posted by Quesa

Originally posted by gelraen

Originally posted by Kirexy

Played the beta, was initially disappointed by figuring it out. But, the auto walk feature isn't that bad because they made it logical. Taking the auto walk feature may not always be the optimal way to reach a destination, because auto walk always makes you travel by road. So if you want to go to a specific area, auto walk will sometimes take a looong turn instead of just crossing some kind of field.

 

What this does is that you essentially only use auto walk when you travel from town to town, since you would be using the roads anyway.  Most of the times, moving manually is the fastest way to travel. And you can also run into things using auto walk....

There are two main reasons why I think this REALLy sucks in terms of keeping the world realistic and immersive. Firstly, I think it's very important to immersion to see other people in the world - whether they're just traveling between towns, fighting in nearby bushes, fishing on the side of a lake, whatever.  Just seeing people other makes it feel like a living breathing world.  The presence of an auto-walk feature undermines this immersion - making you doubt that the people running down the road are even playing game at all = most likely they are AFK running between point A and point B, breaking the illusion of the living world.

Secondly, there's nothing wrong with making the player actually control their way between destinations.  I've been lately playing a lot of the Archeage english alpha, and that game is quite hardcore about travel - you need to control your character across the land and sea pretty well all of the time.  The side effect of this is that Archeage is actually the most immersive MMO I've ever played (and I've played most).  Almost always when traveling to a distance destination, some sort of adventure will unfold and I'll get caught up with things happening in the world.  This goes a long way to making the world feel alive.

Anyway, I'm quite sad that Black Desert will go this route, and quite surprised.  It seems to me that everything else in the game is build so carefully with immersion in mind.  

Two problems with your arguments.

1) People walking along a road or sidewalk is immersive.  It's far less immersive for us to see people running through other peoples yards, across the street or over rooftops.  If you think it's important to see people in the world to maintain immersion, then people walking along the road is far more immersive than say, teleporting from one area to another or hopping on a transport ship.  People walking along the road MAKES the world feel more immersive and alive, as if the world is living and breathing beyond the players characters running around jumping ever two seconds.

2) No, there is nothing wrong with having players manually move from one area to the other just as there is nothing wrong with having someone use a teleporter or transporter-on-rails to get from one point to the other.  How is teleporting immersive over seeing people traveling along a path designated for travel?  I actually think this is a novel idea where one can travel, at a much slower rate, automatically while still adding immersive elements to the game (the character becomes an immersive element during this travel) versus clicking on a teleporter to automatically transfer you to another area or hopping on a railed transport that runs back and forth.  

I think you are completely ignoring how this will improve the immersion and the look and feel of the game.

That's fair enough to look at it as an alternative to teleporting, and I agree, it's better than teleporting by a long stretch.  At least they're present on the road.. But I also think that teleporting absolutely sucks.  Taking GW2 for an example, the ease with which you can teleport across large distances compeltely kills any sense of "place" in that world.  

The way Archeage has approached it is to make teleporting an option, but to make it prohibitively expensive to do it regularly, so for the most part, you're going by foot/boat/horse/donkey.

For your example though, keeping people out of people's yards and actually on the road -- I think this could have been approached in a different way, in terms of game design.  Give people a 15% speed buff for actually walking on the road (it's realistic anyway that they would travel faster on paths and roads).  That will be more than adequate to encourage people to stay on the road and out of people's gardens. 

 

rojoArcueid

Auto pathing is very common in F2P Eastern mmos. Dont be surprised if they also add auto fighting, which is also very common in the east.

Yoofaloof

It'll only get worse I'm afraid. Two betas I'm in at the moment namely Archlord 2 and Swordsman do the same. An MMO you don't have to actually play? Be afraid - be very afraid!

Quesa

Originally posted by gelraen

Originally posted by Quesa

Originally posted by gelraen

Originally posted by Kirexy

Played the beta, was initially disappointed by figuring it out. But, the auto walk feature isn't that bad because they made it logical. Taking the auto walk feature may not always be the optimal way to reach a destination, because auto walk always makes you travel by road. So if you want to go to a specific area, auto walk will sometimes take a looong turn instead of just crossing some kind of field.

 

What this does is that you essentially only use auto walk when you travel from town to town, since you would be using the roads anyway.  Most of the times, moving manually is the fastest way to travel. And you can also run into things using auto walk....

There are two main reasons why I think this REALLy sucks in terms of keeping the world realistic and immersive. Firstly, I think it's very important to immersion to see other people in the world - whether they're just traveling between towns, fighting in nearby bushes, fishing on the side of a lake, whatever.  Just seeing people other makes it feel like a living breathing world.  The presence of an auto-walk feature undermines this immersion - making you doubt that the people running down the road are even playing game at all = most likely they are AFK running between point A and point B, breaking the illusion of the living world.

Secondly, there's nothing wrong with making the player actually control their way between destinations.  I've been lately playing a lot of the Archeage english alpha, and that game is quite hardcore about travel - you need to control your character across the land and sea pretty well all of the time.  The side effect of this is that Archeage is actually the most immersive MMO I've ever played (and I've played most).  Almost always when traveling to a distance destination, some sort of adventure will unfold and I'll get caught up with things happening in the world.  This goes a long way to making the world feel alive.

Anyway, I'm quite sad that Black Desert will go this route, and quite surprised.  It seems to me that everything else in the game is build so carefully with immersion in mind.  

Two problems with your arguments.

1) People walking along a road or sidewalk is immersive.  It's far less immersive for us to see people running through other peoples yards, across the street or over rooftops.  If you think it's important to see people in the world to maintain immersion, then people walking along the road is far more immersive than say, teleporting from one area to another or hopping on a transport ship.  People walking along the road MAKES the world feel more immersive and alive, as if the world is living and breathing beyond the players characters running around jumping ever two seconds.

2) No, there is nothing wrong with having players manually move from one area to the other just as there is nothing wrong with having someone use a teleporter or transporter-on-rails to get from one point to the other.  How is teleporting immersive over seeing people traveling along a path designated for travel?  I actually think this is a novel idea where one can travel, at a much slower rate, automatically while still adding immersive elements to the game (the character becomes an immersive element during this travel) versus clicking on a teleporter to automatically transfer you to another area or hopping on a railed transport that runs back and forth.  

I think you are completely ignoring how this will improve the immersion and the look and feel of the game.

That's fair enough to look at it as an alternative to teleporting, and I agree, it's better than teleporting by a long stretch.  At least they're present on the road.. But I also think that teleporting absolutely sucks.  Taking GW2 for an example, the ease with which you can teleport across large distances compeltely kills any sense of "place" in that world.  

The way Archeage has approached it is to make teleporting an option, but to make it prohibitively expensive to do it regularly, so for the most part, you're going by foot/boat/horse/donkey.

For your example though, keeping people out of people's yards and actually on the road -- I think this could have been approached in a different way, in terms of game design.  Give people a 15% speed buff for actually walking on the road (it's realistic anyway that they would travel faster on paths and roads).  That will be more than adequate to encourage people to stay on the road and out of people's gardens. 

 

Gathering the 'teleport' stones in Archeage isn't all that expensive.  Once you surpass a certain level you can get enough income Lunastones are not prohibitive at all.  Couple with the fact that once you create a portal that anyone can use and travel becomes much easier.  Additionally, proper planning in where one glides, meaning going up a hill before you glide, can drastically drop travel time and obstacles.

Immersion is a tricky thing however, one thing is damn near certain, players are not immersive elements.  They don't move as 'people' do, they move erratically and without proper flow.  If you look around a game that puts a lot of attention to the immersive details of a game, you'll notice that it's the NPC's and their interactions that create the immersive feel.  Creating immersion isn't about the foreground actors, it's about the little things in the background: the wavy grass and shrubs, the metal worker pounding away on the anvil or the performer singing a ballad on the corner.  These things create the perception of a living breathing world.

Take for instance the game Ryzom.  It has beasts and these beats tend to huddle around each other or run in herds, these herds migrate depending upon the season or time of day as well as interact with other beats in the world (predators kill non-predators).  This isn't necessarily something one recognizes as 'herds migrating'.  However, one might end up realizing that "hey, it's nighttime in the summer so {x} will be just outside the town".

Nephelai

Originally posted by rojo6934
Auto pathing is very common in F2P Eastern mmos. Dont be surprised if they also add auto fighting, which is also very common in the east.

Don't be supprised if you have to play at all. Pay your sub come back in 6m and your chars full Glad

rojoArcueid

Originally posted by Nephelai

Originally posted by rojo6934
Auto pathing is very common in F2P Eastern mmos. Dont be surprised if they also add auto fighting, which is also very common in the east.

Don't be supprised if you have to play at all. Pay your sub come back in 6m and your chars full Glad

well, so far the game sounds/looks too good to be t rue.... something very foul must be cooking behind the scenes.

Quesa

I find it puzzling as to why people would be in uproar about this type of system.  What game released now doesn't have some way to fast travel or travel on some railed transport?  

Why in ESO do we not force players to horse or swim their way to new zones?  

Why does WoW have fightpaths and boats or teleports for fast travel?

Why does Archeage have gliders so we can fly over all those mobs that might be in our way?

 

I think people should really analyze what they have now and what difference there is to an auto-walking system.  It appears that this auto-walking system is a MORE LIMITED form of auto/fast travel that the modern MMOs we all play TODAY AND NOW have at our disposal.

SomeHuman

I agree with Quesa.   I also think, putting it down to being an Asian MMORPG is lame.  I played GTA V last night, and I'm constantly taking taxis instead of driving back and forth across the map.  It doesn't break anything.  Does public transit break immersion in real life?  Do you see a school bus or a plane and just get pissed?  I joke, but it seems like BD put some thought into it, and it doesn't sound like it will kill the mechanics.

DamonVile

Why do you have to use it?

gelraen

Originally posted by SomeHuman

I agree with Quesa.   I also think, putting it down to being an Asian MMORPG is lame.  I played GTA V last night, and I'm constantly taking taxis instead of driving back and forth across the map.  It doesn't break anything.  Does public transit break immersion in real life?  Do you see a school bus or a plane and just get pissed?  I joke, but it seems like BD put some thought into it, and it doesn't sound like it will kill the mechanics.

I'd argue that there's nothing wrong with including public transport in MMOs.  The flight paths in WoW are far more immersion-preserving than the waypoints in GW2 -- because at least you're actually flying through the world, the travel takes time (as it does in real life), and you can actually discover things going on while you're in the air.  Archeage takes that one step further by letting you jump off the air transport, which i think is a nice detail.

It's also true that the teleport cost solution of Archeage isn't perfect.  There's still a point where you become rich enough that it's a non issue, but for a long while it's prohibitively expensive.

I think something like a buff-speed on roads would be a better solution, because it would encourage people to actually control their character (and maybe discover something along the way, jump in a fight, whatever).

What different people find immersive about a world of course varies, but for me, any time that my character is on auto-pilot is an immersion killer.  My original argument was that they've gone to such tremendous lengths to make this world immersive (or so it seems) that it's a shame to have such an auto-pilot in place.   I'd concede that it is better than teleport points, if that's the only alternative, but I'd say there are other systems they could put in place which wouldn't require you handing over control to the computer.

Amjoco

I think the trend in mmorpgs is spiraling towards our laziness. Soon we will just have to login and the game will play for us.

MacShwangus

Man if you guys like walking you should run across Cyrodiil in teso. Funnest thing I've ever done in an mmo.

Quesa

 

---

Originally posted by gelraenWhat different people find immersive about a world of course varies, but for me, any time that my character is on auto-pilot is an immersion killer.  My original argument was that they've gone to such tremendous lengths to make this world immersive (or so it seems) that it's a shame to have such an auto-pilot in place.   I'd concede that it is better than teleport points, if that's the only alternative, but I'd say there are other systems they could put in place which wouldn't require you handing over control to the computer.

---

 

 

I think for the auto-walking person, they choose what type of immersion they want. If they are AFK while traveling, making some food or whatnot, the immersion you speak of is irrelevant because he's not watching the screen. However, the immersion for others viewing the auto-walker is intact because that player then becomes an immersive element in the game for others who are in the world. I think that's an important distinction that we need to make.

Yes, it's all about perception and opinion but I think you might find this creative way of improving or enhancing immersion for those other players in the world is a benefit to the game.

In many respects, players (and you) hand over control of your player to the computer many times. Any time you opt in for mass-transit or fast-travel you're handing over your travel to the computer. When you hop on a boat to travel from one continent to the other, you're handing over control of your game to the server as it sends you on a static path. The same thing happens when you hop on a flight to another zone in WoW or hop on a carriage in AA.

In the end I think this whole thread is over blowing the whole issue until we actually get some further details in methods of travel. I will add that this seems like a great system that matches the way they are doing auction houses and trade, having regional/area markets.

Alumicard

Originally posted by gelraen

I've been so hyped for this game and devouring all of the information that I can on it. But then yesterday I came across a video detailing that you can set your character to auto-walk from one point to another.  WTF!   That's so lame, I can't believe they'd include a feature like that.  All of the trouble that they've gone to to create this detailed, immersive world.  All of talk they've been doing about creating a virtual reality where you can really live and get involved with the world.  Then they include an immersion breaking auto-pilot like that.  Doesn't that seem like a bizarre inclusion to anyone else?

Pretty disappointing, imho.

 

Can you link the video please? I couldnt find anything except a post/review from closed beta 1:

http://www.mmoculture.com/2013/10/black-desert-looking-at-closed-beta-1-through-the-eyes-of-a-giant/

"For normal quests, there is no auto-route, but for certain quests which requires talking to another NPC, a direction arrow will surround player when clicking on the quest guide, with a ray of light on the NPC as well"

 

You sure it was Black DESERT and not Black GOLD? I know Gold has auto-pathing but thought Desert didnt.

Bloodaxes

I honestly don't see how auto-walking is such a big deal, it's not like they are forcing you to auto walk.

azzamasin

Originally posted by bcbully

I love auto path in games where I have to quest or travel long distances. Click where I'm headed, pan around and look at the scenery. 

 

I don't get why anyone would have a problem with it.

Because if the game is boring enough to feature something to make traveling easier it might as well feature fast travel.  Forced time constraints are one of my biggest turn offs in an MMO.  Anything that artificially makes you slow down is an anathema  to me.

gelraen

Originally posted by Alumicard

Originally posted by gelraen

I've been so hyped for this game and devouring all of the information that I can on it. But then yesterday I came across a video detailing that you can set your character to auto-walk from one point to another.  WTF!   That's so lame, I can't believe they'd include a feature like that.  All of the trouble that they've gone to to create this detailed, immersive world.  All of talk they've been doing about creating a virtual reality where you can really live and get involved with the world.  Then they include an immersion breaking auto-pilot like that.  Doesn't that seem like a bizarre inclusion to anyone else?

Pretty disappointing, imho.

 

Can you link the video please? I couldnt find anything except a post/review from closed beta 1:

http://www.mmoculture.com/2013/10/black-desert-looking-at-closed-beta-1-through-the-eyes-of-a-giant/

"For normal quests, there is no auto-route, but for certain quests which requires talking to another NPC, a direction arrow will surround player when clicking on the quest guide, with a ray of light on the NPC as well"

 

You sure it was Black DESERT and not Black GOLD? I know Gold has auto-pathing but thought Desert didnt.

It's not related to questing, it's just general travel in the world.

The video is here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZNxe4aUMEs

Tamanous

I noticed this feature is many Asian mmos. It seems to be something they are really into. This is one reason among many why I simply cannot get into Asian mmos. The cultural differences in consumer expectations are too different.