The game may be awesome, but....

bill4747

Without dnd classes, pen and paper rules, it's not Pathfinder, and its not dnd.

I will follow the game and possibly play it if the reviews are stellar, but as a pen and paper dnd fan, the big draw would be the game actually resembling dnd in some way.

I was hugely disappointed in both DDO and Neverwinter, and it was because both games barely resemble dnd at all.

In all fairness, if the game was not called pathfinder Online, and instead was called "Amazing new fantasy rpg online" I would probably not be complaining.

I will try to keep an open mind.

 

 

 

 

 

 

MumboJumbo

That's a fair comment.

I think the devs are using the Pathfinder "brand" more than the "rules". Whether or not the following accept that or like it is going to vary or may even be mostly not content with that choice it seems. But the differentiation is one the TT is more of a story-telling, small group game and the other is more of a simulation and massive network "thing" where iirc it's the achievement type of personality that finds more of a home there than the theatrics type.

Personally I like the idea of a fantasy Game Of Thrones albeit the player settlements and nations are the equivalent with tons of politics. Alternatively just seeing the sandbox genre evolve is a good start.

Here's something Ryan Dancey, Goblinworks CEO, mentioned roughly speaking about what's it's supposed to be:-

 

1: I would like to see Pathfinder Online evolve the sandbox MMO concepts the way that World of Warcraft evolved the theme park MMO. There are a lot of lessons to be learned from previous sandbox games not just EVE. EVE got a lot of things right and anyone who has played EVE will likely find a lot of similarities with Pathfinder Online, but the two games will be very different as well.

2: Not much at all. Rather than mirroring the mechanics, we're going to mirror the style of the game. The Pathfinder tabletop game is built around small parties of specialized adventurers and extremely detailed tactical combat that is broken into 6 second intervals, but allows an infinite amount of real-time to determine each action. The Pathfinder online game is built around huge communities of players with a wide variety of careers and a combat system that will run in real-time.

 

Kuviski

While I am not a big time pen-and-paper player personally, I can to some extent relate to your feeling. A loved franchise is a loved franchise.

That being said, I myself, as stated being a non-PNP player, find the world of Pathfinder extremely suitable for an MMORPG. To me, it is just another fantasy setting, much like Forgotten Realms as it is implemented in certain video games, and I love that kind of fantasy. It even has a cool name to it already.

I suppose you'll have to look at Pathfinder simply as the chosen brand of the game, as the poster above pointed out. If you're looking for a PNP experience online, I guess it might not be a game for you. As an MMORPG gamer, I think the game looks extremely interesting.

Apraxis

In all honestly.. you can not translate DnD PnP rulesets into a computer game, and even more not into a Multiplayer computer game. If you want to play with DnD PnP rulesets you have to play it as pen and paper with a few friends.

What you can do, is to make the world alive where the Pathfinder IP is based, and you can introduce some aspects in one or the other way into a computer game. And i guess Pathfinder Online does that in the most part, maybe a lot more than games like Neverwinter or DDO, because it will be more of a world, and not so much one themepark alongside the other.

In my opinion it is never the best idea to base computer games on a well known IP, it would be better to make up your own... because you almost never can asemble the feeling what makes the IP what it is. And i can't remember one computer game, which did that to any extent. As example.. SWG was a great game.. but it was not great because it was Star Wars, but because of the mechanics, and would be as good with any other IP.

On the other side i understand why a lot of developers try to go with a well known IP.. because it will attract potential players, which would otherwise not try that game.. but in the long run it usually never ends good.

JaggaSpikes

it's based in Pathfinder setting, world of Golarion. it's entitled to Pathfinder Online.

Unknown

In addition to the other responses, there are major licensing issues with converting the Pathfinder TT rules mechanics which are based on the D&D OGL into a computer game. Pathfinder owns Golarion, but they don't own D20 and can only use it in ways the OGL permits. Could that be worked around? Sure, but that's extra money, risk, and time that they don't have to spend if they write new mechanical systems- which are better for a computed medium anyway.

ChaiGuy

I believe that Pathfinder classes will be available as "roles", so it is possible to have the cleric role by obtaining a specific skill set.  Also alignment, when it is implemented, will help PFO have a more Pathfinder feel.

KoboldCleaver

Wait, DDO wasn't like D&D? Since when? That game used classes, races, abilities—it even showed off the dice rolls! What are we expecting, a system where it lags whenever you try to Grapple something while the system looks up the rules?

 

Anyways, that and Neverwinter is about as close as you can get. Pathfinder Online isn't adapting the game, it's adapting the setting. Frankly, that's plenty for me.

 

EDIT: Flagged as possible spam! THEY KNOW!

caliphis

KC it is hard to read your posts when you are trying to provide useful information while not in character.

Did it hurt? Are you ok?

Lam_de_Cork

YOU are right, no classes.  It is better.  

CLASSES: As you gain experience you add to character traits.  Under classes, you collect EXP, and then say 2000, poof more hit points, spells, skill improvement, BAB, ...

PfO ROLES:  As you gain experience, you use experience to buy: hit points, attributes, spells, weapon skill …;  gaining as you play.  There are prerequisite and achievement that you will pick up as you play.  gather a collection and you role level increases opening higher levels.  You want to multi-class,  learn some wizard, some cleric and Mystic Theurger (sp) here you come.  (Consider the EVE experience gain and adding skills)

If I could figure how to do this in TT PF, it would be very interesting.  But for TT the paperwork would be crazy, much more complex -- need to computerize the player development.  Hmmm, PfO is computerized!

Roles over classes!

MumboJumbo

As above, the mechanics are different from paper to online. But there is actually an established connection between the TT pathfinder game and PFO, for completion of this topic:-

Pathfinder Adventure Path: Kingmaker Player's Guide (PFRPG) PDF

The Kingmaker Player’s Guide is intended to provide context for creating characters from the nation of Brevoy or surrounding regions who wish to play a role in the Stolen Lands’ transformation. In this campaign, your characters will explore vast wildernesses and settle them, build cities and nations, and even fight wars against opposing kingdoms. Many of these unusual campaign elements are supported by additional rules that appear in other volumes of the Kingmaker Adventure Path—your GM can provide you with the information you need to explore, build, conquer, and war as the need arises in each adventure. As a special preview, some of these elements are presented at the end of this guide so you have all of the blank forms and hex paper you need to track your adventures and achievements in the Stolen Lands.

 

It's a really good pdf. There's a decent spread of building types for example and of course the hex map structure too. Which fits what PFO is (eventually) developing towards:-

• Adventure
• Exploration
• Development
• Domination

BlueMountain

Originally posted by bill4747

Without dnd classes, pen and paper rules, it's not Pathfinder, and its not dnd.

I will follow the game and possibly play it if the reviews are stellar, but as a pen and paper dnd fan, the big draw would be the game actually resembling dnd in some way.

I was hugely disappointed in both DDO and Neverwinter, and it was because both games barely resemble dnd at all.

In all fairness, if the game was not called pathfinder Online, and instead was called "Amazing new fantasy rpg online" I would probably not be complaining.

I will try to keep an open mind.

An open mind is flayer bait.

Seriously, though, I disagree that without those structural conventions it isn't Pathfinder. There are other details that would be better suited to disputing the appropriateness of the IP, but Pathfinder and D&D classes, stats, TT rules are no more than systems that give structure and consistency to something else that really is D&D and Pathfinder.

Nihimon

Just wanted to throw my 2 cp in about the OP.

Having played a lot of D&D, and a little bit of Pathfinder, and a *lot* of Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, it's really awesome to me how much continuity there is through all the Pathfinder variants.  I know the ACG doesn't follow the RPG rules to the letter either, but it's still very cool, and *very* Pathfinder-y.

I've been playing the Pathfinder Online Alpha for the last 6 weeks or so, and it's been a blast, with incredibly deep and complex systems, and a lot of the Pathfinder *feel*.

 

MumboJumbo

More discussion here:-

Tabletop to Desktop: Making Wizards Work in Pathfinder Online

Translating a tabletop RPG like Pathfinder to its online version is harder than it looks.

You could argue that tabletop roleplaying games like Dungeons & Dragons were the inspiration for MMOs, but the two games are separated by a chasm. One is a social game played around a table, while one is played alone but with people on the other side of your monitor. Pathfinder Online has a more specific problem in translating a particular tabletop game to a digital, multiplayer environment. I peppered the CEO of Goblinworks and avid roleplayer Ryan Dancey on how he was going to adapt the fun of tabletop more generally, and more specifically, how he was going to stop wizards from being so overpowered.

Greg Tito: Pathfinder Online is obviously based on the tabletop RPG from Paizo, but it is a videogame first and foremost. How are you guys balancing those two very different styles of games?

Ryan Dancey, CEO of Goblinworks: There are four differences that we have to address...

 

 

Dreamseeker_Natebob

I gave up on MMO's years ago, but this game has revitalized my interest in the genre. Which my wife hates, hahaha.

Long time tabletop gamer, though I don't have time to do that anymore either, I am glad to see a D&D-style fantasy world get the sandbox treatment. Not everyone will be able to say they killed the evil ruler of gobstankia, but the ones who can will now be the nee rulers of goodlandia, formerly-known-as-gobstankia. (No goblins were harmed in the making of this post.)

glass_snake

On the one hand, I have to admit that I wish the game was a little closer to the TTRPG, at least in how it handles attributes (let me do point buy and only get minimal attribute advancement thereafter).  However, I certainly like dropping levels in favor of skill progression over time (sure beats grinding).  I also like that you can mix and match skills instead of being locked to a single class.

That said, I see where the OP is coming from.  I think I have a certain set of expectations that a game based on a TTRPG will remain very close to the TTRPG in both system and setting.  The only reason it might not be bothering me as much is that I'm not a huge Pathfinder fan, so I'm able to see it as "fantasy MMO with the Pathfinder name" and bring no baggage or expectations to the table.

Now if they did a Battletech RPG and messed it up...

MumboJumbo

Maybe the fidelity to the mechanics is important for some. That said it's more generic fantasy mmorpg challenges that are probably more impactful I'd suggest, for example:-

* Spells outside combat
* Size of buildings and settlements not shrunk down to "model village" size
* Visceral combat and armies sized battlefield experiences.
* Exploits and griefing that affect immersion
* AI that can't compete with a GM and the range of interactions beyond combat
* Death penalty and limits to consequences that reduce the drama of the story
Etc