Originally posted by Kyleran If they have 2M subs, they are not players from the west.
Why would you say that? I'm on a US server and is full with players here.
Because of its huge following in Asia. Even FFXI to this date gets majority of its population from Asia. On top of that add consoles popularity in japan and lack of good MMO options avilable to them. So yes FFXIV is doing great thanks to Asian players.
Arent majority of WoWs players asian too? Especially Korean? Consoles are just as popular in the west too. And NA servers are very full majority of the time.
They have slightly more servers but if you look at this link each of our servers are more populated than the Japanese ones.
http://xivsoul.com/ click on population to sort from most to least and you'll see that all NA are on top of Japanese.
Yup, this database hasn't even registered 50% of the characters in the game yet though. A lot of those NA servers like gilgamesh, balmung and leviathan are wayyy higher pop then they are being shown here.
Every other thread of every game forum. ESO ESO ESO. No wonder it's the most popular game on this site.
You can compare the pve if you want, but that's all the same anyways. Quest and dungeons (boring). There is no comparison between the two with regards to PvP though. ESO wins that hands down.
Originally posted by Kyleran If they have 2M subs, they are not players from the west.
Why would you say that? I'm on a US server and is full with players here.
Because of its huge following in Asia. Even FFXI to this date gets majority of its population from Asia. On top of that add consoles popularity in japan and lack of good MMO options avilable to them. So yes FFXIV is doing great thanks to Asian players.
and this is bad somehow?
Because the world is AMERICA and the rest is insignificant.
On topic. FFXIV is successful because it delivers what people want, a classic mmorpg experience in a Final Fantasy theme. SE boast nothing at all, they didn't promise something new nor next gen, and they delivered it perfectly.
Every other thread of every game forum. ESO ESO ESO. No wonder it's the most popular game on this site.
You can compare the pve if you want, but that's all the same anyways. Quest and dungeons (boring). There is no comparison between the two with regards to PvP though. ESO wins that hands down.
Oh look, the guy who boasts with a vid of killing upscaled people in 3:1. You are such a great PvPer man. Teach me how to be a griefing noob pliz and then go on public boards and brag about with 0 sense of shame!
My thread so i'll derail, how do you compare a tab targeting PvP to action combat PvP?
Should we compare MMORTS's to MMOFPS's? Same goal, different ways of playing entirely.
I hate tab targeting PvP. Thank god FF XIV ARR does not force any kind of PvP down my throat. Hence why I never mentioned PvP in my post.
Originally posted by Jockan I don't understand why people act like if the subs are not from the West then they don't count. I remember back when Lineage 2 had 2 Million + subs world wide they said the same thing.
What I'd like to know is...
Who ever said they don't count if they're not from the West?
All Kyleran said was, "If they have 2M subs, they are not players from the west."
That's literally all they said. It's a direct quote, in fact.
I read that to mean that, at least on Western servers, they're not seeing a population hinting at 2M subs overall. It implies that perhaps the majority of the population is on the Eastern servers - again, from their perspective.
They say nothing at all, at any point, about "Eastern players not counting as real players", or anything like that.
Funny how others go straight into projection mode, spraying their xenophobia all over the place, while trying to attribute it to Kyleran's remark, which said nothing of the sort.
Gaming Forums: Where strawmen thrive and context is ignored.
I only ran the first few at launch so I can't comment on endgame dungeons, but with that said, I personally found the dungeons in TSW and Wildstar much more challenging and better designed.
TSW dungeons are excellent but then, given the overall quality of TSW, that's not a surprise
I'm sure that was intended to be a swipe at TSW... But it really makes no sense. You're trying too hard and not thinking through your remarks.
What does the "overall quality of TSW" (in your opinion), have to do with how good its dungeons are?
The dungeons are fun because the dungeons are fun. If you don't like the rest of the game, then you don't like the rest of the game. The two are not mutually exclusive.
In fact, many MMOs have been described as having really strong "insert feature here", but being weak in everything else. Of course, that's based on the experience and opinion of the person making the remark. Even ARR has had similar opinions voiced about it.
That said, I'd have loved to see the kind of depth put into FFXIV's quests that TSW has. I'd have loved to see puzzles that are actual puzzles that aren't spelled out for you. The dungeons in XIV were, to me, fun. Nothing amazing, but fun. They may have been more fun if not for the douchebaggery experienced so often thanks to the horribly toxic and intolerant community that game has developed. The quests in XIV were as cookie-cutter style filler as you can get... with the occasional exception of main storyline quests - and even those were marred by blatantly time-wasting filler, such as the whole:
- BEGIN POSSIBLE SPOILER -
"Yeah we know you have to go kill Titan... The safety of Eorzea hangs in the balance and all that... but first go run all over to gather these food items for a banquet...". The game even calls itself out on that. I believe it was Y'shtola who remarks on it, when she's incredulous at the time wasting going on in the face of imminent danger. She pretty much echoed my aggravation at how SE so blatantly loaded up the core storyline with such ridiculous filler.
And then there's the whole mess of.. "Oops! Wrong element!" that comes toward the end of the main storyline. That was even worse than the Titan Banquest mess.
Or the whole mess with the Elezen in Coerthas, and having to run back and forth all over the place - literally back and forth to and from the same spot 3 or 4 times in a row just for one branch of a single quest. Lazy, uninspired, time-wasting, quest design.
- END POSSIBLE SPOILER -
I know people love to bash on TSW for its combat (though they never actually explain what they didn't like about the combat... just that they didn't like it), but one thing I will state unequivocally (as my opinion, of course) is... in the story and quest dept, TSW absolutely wipes the floor with XIV. In terms of depth, variety, challenge and relevance to the setting, it's not even a contest. And yes, the dungeons are excellent as well. Even the character dialog in TSW - nevermind the voice acting - makes XIV's best efforts seem amateur by comparison.
In a nutshell: TSW consistently challenges and respects the players' intelligence. ARR treats the player as though they have none.
Originally posted by AndrewGoat One of the things that irritated me about FFXIV when I played it was how much better ranged DPS was than melee. Particularly Bards. Did that ever get fixed?
I'm not sure what game you played.
As a bard main I can tell you that the ranged>melee arguement does not even slightly apply to this game, it is imo, one of the most balanced from a PVE standpoint if not the most balanced.
Bards are not parsing top damage on fights that is well known, yet we are necessary in every group why?
-We have fast and consistent damage output and a lot of burst CD's
-We generate mana and TP for the group through our songs
-We have a healer LB as a dps class
Every dps class has their specialty and drawbacks, no one crits harder than a dragoon but their dmg output is much more slow and spread due to the rotation being heavily combo based. Bards have excellent consistent dps but in order to provide mana/tp song take a 20% dmg loss and also rely on bloodletter resets. Black mages have absurd AOE damage but heavier cast times and mana management etc.
I only ran the first few at launch so I can't comment on endgame dungeons, but with that said, I personally found the dungeons in TSW and Wildstar much more challenging and better designed.
TSW dungeons are excellent but then, given the overall quality of TSW, that's not a surprise
I'm sure that was intended to be a swipe at TSW... But it really makes no sense. You're trying too hard and not thinking through your remarks.
What does the "overall quality of TSW" (in your opinion), have to do with how good its dungeons are?
The dungeons are fun because the dungeons are fun. If you don't like the rest of the game, then you don't like the rest of the game. The two are not mutually exclusive.
In fact, many MMOs have been described as having really strong "insert feature here", but being weak in everything else. Of course, that's based on the experience and opinion of the person making the remark. Even ARR has had similar opinions voiced about it.
That said, I'd have loved to see the kind of depth put into FFXIV's quests that TSW has. I'd have loved to see puzzles that are actual puzzles that aren't spelled out for you. The dungeons in XIV were, to me, fun. Nothing amazing, but fun. They may have been more fun if not for the douchebaggery experienced so often thanks to the horribly toxic and intolerant community that game has developed. The quests in XIV were as cookie-cutter style filler as you can get... with the occasional exception of main storyline quests - and even those were marred by blatantly time-wasting filler, such as the whole:
- BEGIN POSSIBLE SPOILER -
"Yeah we know you have to go kill Titan... The safety of Eorzea hangs in the balance and all that... but first go run all over to gather these food items for a banquet...". The game even calls itself out on that. I believe it was Y'shtola who remarks on it, when she's incredulous at the time wasting going on in the face of imminent danger. She pretty much echoed my aggravation at how SE so blatantly loaded up the core storyline with such ridiculous filler.
And then there's the whole mess of.. "Oops! Wrong element!" that comes toward the end of the main storyline. That was even worse than the Titan Banquest mess.
Or the whole mess with the Elezen in Coerthas, and having to run back and forth all over the place - literally back and forth to and from the same spot 3 or 4 times in a row just for one branch of a single quest. Lazy, uninspired, time-wasting, quest design.
- END POSSIBLE SPOILER -
I know people love to bash on TSW for its combat (though they never actually explain what they didn't like about the combat... just that they didn't like it), but one thing I will state unequivocally (as my opinion, of course) is... in the story and quest dept, TSW absolutely wipes the floor with XIV. In terms of depth, variety, challenge and relevance to the setting, it's not even a contest. And yes, the dungeons are excellent as well. Even the character dialog in TSW - nevermind the voice acting - makes XIV's best efforts seem amateur by comparison.
In a nutshell: TSW consistently challenges and respects the players' intelligence. ARR treats the player as though they have none.
In a nutshell: TSW should've been a single player game because it's only good at storytelling.
TSW has a mean story component that is very well done but obviously the drawback was lacking in every part of the MMO side. The replay value in this game for frequent gamers is a laughing matter and that is what MMO's need above all so that they don't turn into another "started p2p went f2p now forgotten". Not special voicing on every single scene.
FFXIV, being an FF title of course, actually has a very strong story on its own and the core parts of it are extremely well written, though as you said one will encounter filler as well which is the drawback when holding side by side others.
Without a doubt though FFXIV nailed everything that TSW didn't, and which is why some filler story quests aren't a big deal. First and foremost progression raid content that groups spend a ton of time dying on and a vertical progression through everything at endgame, even for casuals. In-depth crafting, consistent progression content updates, and most importantly the encouragement and sometimes requirement of grouping. This game drives home the sense of community, where TSW neglects it.
Anybody notice how fantastic this game is doing compaired to ESO and SWTOR, etc.
It still blows my mind how a game that had to be redone, in every way pretty much, Is way better than the games labeled, "The WoW killers".
My god, this game has more premium content in its 10 month life span than SWTOR or any other game, not all, but a big portion of name brand household mmo's.
SWTOR got 1 million subs in 3 day's breaking a record. So how is it doing worse than FF? Their content sucks. I have to read half the time in FF XIV ARR and I feel it is a way better story. How do you spend millions on voice acting just to have a game with little to no voice acting have a better story?
Crafting is superb. Every game need's to do crafting like this.
I could go on for pages with the all the things I love.
I left the game for 2 months for ESO.
What the hell was I thinking?
It feels good to be home.
Look i'm not tooting FF's horn here but in the last producers letter, translated, they stated they had 2 million SUBSCRIBERS. Yoshi-P did NOT SAY REGISTERED ACCOUNTS.
Has to be more subscribers then they let on.
I'm just amazed how this game has done better than these other mmo's that were rated a 10/10 and best mmo ever, blah, blah, blah. The game failed and almost bankrupted SE. It was stated that if FF XIV ARR failed, the company would shut down.
What game has failed hard core, been hated, redone, re released and still had horrable reception when it re launched, is doing better than mmo's that were born and bred to succeed?
I'm not talking about WoW btw.
Remeber when people trolled us to death and said it was going F2P or would be shut down in a couple months? I do.
10 months later and still kicking ass better than the, "AAA absolute success, WoW killer, blah, blah, blah." mmo.
Just my opinion.
I show love to my games yo'.
All nice and stuff, but do I still have to wait 3 seconds in between skills to accomodate console players? I was looking into it then when I saw that I just couldn't play it without falling asleep.
Boycotting EA. Why? They suck, even moreso since 2008.
Anybody notice how fantastic this game is doing compaired to ESO and SWTOR, etc.
It still blows my mind how a game that had to be redone, in every way pretty much, Is way better than the games labeled, "The WoW killers".
My god, this game has more premium content in its 10 month life span than SWTOR or any other game, not all, but a big portion of name brand household mmo's.
SWTOR got 1 million subs in 3 day's breaking a record. So how is it doing worse than FF? Their content sucks. I have to read half the time in FF XIV ARR and I feel it is a way better story. How do you spend millions on voice acting just to have a game with little to no voice acting have a better story?
Crafting is superb. Every game need's to do crafting like this.
I could go on for pages with the all the things I love.
I left the game for 2 months for ESO.
What the hell was I thinking?
It feels good to be home.
Look i'm not tooting FF's horn here but in the last producers letter, translated, they stated they had 2 million SUBSCRIBERS. Yoshi-P did NOT SAY REGISTERED ACCOUNTS.
Has to be more subscribers then they let on.
I'm just amazed how this game has done better than these other mmo's that were rated a 10/10 and best mmo ever, blah, blah, blah. The game failed and almost bankrupted SE. It was stated that if FF XIV ARR failed, the company would shut down.
What game has failed hard core, been hated, redone, re released and still had horrable reception when it re launched, is doing better than mmo's that were born and bred to succeed?
I'm not talking about WoW btw.
Remeber when people trolled us to death and said it was going F2P or would be shut down in a couple months? I do.
10 months later and still kicking ass better than the, "AAA absolute success, WoW killer, blah, blah, blah." mmo.
Just my opinion.
I show love to my games yo'.
All nice and stuff, but do I still have to wait 3 seconds in between skills to accomodate console players? I was looking into it then when I saw that I just couldn't play it without falling asleep.
GCD is 2.5 seconds, which is reduced by the time you hit level cap, and further reduced by gear.
Originally posted by ElRenmazuo Does Japanese players not count as Human beings? lol
This is what bothers me when people talk about WoW subs. I guess asians don't count? People are people, com'on people!
WoW subs include a lot from China and the money the Chinese can afford, when making 25cents a week on average, isn't enough to be significant. People are very ignorant though and fail to realize that the Japanese pay just as the rest of the rich world does. 2million subs probably yeilds more cash than WoW's subs, simply because you can disregard the Chinese revenu.
What Blizzard is doing in China though is getting them accustomed to their brand, which may yeild a lot of ROI in the future. As the American economy stands on pillars of sand, the Chinese economy is growing at a scaringly steady pace and will be surpassing the Americans within 10 years.
Boycotting EA. Why? They suck, even moreso since 2008.
Originally posted by ElRenmazuo Does Japanese players not count as Human beings? lol
This is what bothers me when people talk about WoW subs. I guess asians don't count? People are people, com'on people!
WoW subs include a lot from China and the money the Chinese can afford, when making 25cents a week on average, isn't enough to be significant. People are very ignorant though and fail to realize that the Japanese pay just as the rest of the rich world does. 2million subs probably yeilds more cash than WoW's subs, simply because you can disregard the Chinese revenu.
What Blizzard is doing in China though is getting them accustomed to their brand, which may yeild a lot of ROI in the future. As the American economy stands on pillars of sand, the Chinese economy is growing at a scaringly steady pace and will be surpassing the Americans within 10 years.
Nice crystal ball you have there.
The Chinese economy was growing at a scaringly steady pace, it has actually slowed and is beginning to strain and break. A little research goes a long way.
The game you are looking for requiring no PvE completion and where you can just jump in and start mindlessly shooting at people is that way - >>>>
... it's called an FPS.
Quit ruining the MMORPG genre with your constant "PvE grind" whines.
Originally posted by Cleverjack My biggest issue with the game was the lack of customization and character growth. I think its funny how you started out being able to make your rotation full of different skills from all the classes, then at hitting lvl 30 the game limits you to your class and the few skills allowed from 1 other class. And end game everyone looks a like and every class uses the same rotation. That makes the game boring and its why I stopped playing. Now when they add the multitude of classes that XI had then maybe it will be worth a look
Unless they drastically change the class system in between now and then it's not going to help you any, as you're just going to be a new class locked into abilities from two other classes.
Originally posted by nbtscan Originally posted by CleverjackMy biggest issue with the game was the lack of customization and character growth. I think its funny how you started out being able to make your rotation full of different skills from all the classes, then at hitting lvl 30 the game limits you to your class and the few skills allowed from 1 other class. And end game everyone looks a like and every class uses the same rotation. That makes the game boring and its why I stopped playing. Now when they add the multitude of classes that XI had then maybe it will be worth a look
Unless they drastically change the class system in between now and then it's not going to help you any, as you're just going to be a new class locked into abilities from two other classes.
As a crafter, I have access to 8 other classes abilities. The higher I got, the more options I had
Originally posted by Jockan I don't understand why people act like if the subs are not from the West then they don't count. I remember back when Lineage 2 had 2 Million + subs world wide they said the same thing.
What I'd like to know is...
Who ever said they don't count if they're not from the West?
All Kyleran said was, "If they have 2M subs, they are not players from the west."
That's literally all they said. It's a direct quote, in fact.
I read that to mean that, at least on Western servers, they're not seeing a population hinting at 2M subs overall. It implies that perhaps the majority of the population is on the Eastern servers - again, from their perspective.
They say nothing at all, at any point, about "Eastern players not counting as real players", or anything like that.
Funny how others go straight into projection mode, spraying their xenophobia all over the place, while trying to attribute it to Kyleran's remark, which said nothing of the sort.
Gaming Forums: Where strawmen thrive and context is ignored.
What does it mean then?
So what if the subs are not from the west?
Why do we have to bring that up, is that even important?
Is eastern subs net different income for the publisher from western subs?
Originally posted by CleverjackMy biggest issue with the game was the lack of customization and character growth. I think its funny how you started out being able to make your rotation full of different skills from all the classes, then at hitting lvl 30 the game limits you to your class and the few skills allowed from 1 other class. And end game everyone looks a like and every class uses the same rotation. That makes the game boring and its why I stopped playing. Now when they add the multitude of classes that XI had then maybe it will be worth a look
Unless they drastically change the class system in between now and then it's not going to help you any, as you're just going to be a new class locked into abilities from two other classes.
As a crafter, I have access to 8 other classes abilities. The higher I got, the more options I had
which is great for crafting (even though crafting, as great as it is, sits as a secondary thing when people barely have use for it, blame the whole "best gear comes from coil" crap (this could be fixed if there were multiple sets of the highest end gear between crafts and multiple events or gear that is very very close).
As for combat Foom is right, your stuck with the 2 classes for the jobs, even if there are 20 classes it wont matter. I dont mind that honestly but the problem comes when so much is limited to use between classes, there should be more classes subs per job and finally classes themselves are so gimped compared to jobs noone uses them past the point of getting the job.
The class system was far better in 1.0 because it didnt have lower base stats (and each stat didnt count as much) the stats were just less focused and more spread so if your Lancer wants to cast cure of fire, he could do it even if the results were not all that great, but still viable (perticualrly with cures and buff it worked just fine). In AAR when you put on a job not only are the stats more focused, but you get MORE stat points and now that each stat point means far more than it did before, you are extra gimped as a class.
Its a system they should have balanced more from how it was in 1.0 or toss out and just have jobs only (which as it is now would have been the best way to do it). They could honeslty remove classes and people would quickly not care and forget about it. You want a solo job that can use everything? Just put in an "onion" classes (knight/mage or just one) and make the stats more balanced all around and let people use all non job skills.
Originally posted by CleverjackMy biggest issue with the game was the lack of customization and character growth. I think its funny how you started out being able to make your rotation full of different skills from all the classes, then at hitting lvl 30 the game limits you to your class and the few skills allowed from 1 other class. And end game everyone looks a like and every class uses the same rotation. That makes the game boring and its why I stopped playing. Now when they add the multitude of classes that XI had then maybe it will be worth a look
Unless they drastically change the class system in between now and then it's not going to help you any, as you're just going to be a new class locked into abilities from two other classes.
As a crafter, I have access to 8 other classes abilities. The higher I got, the more options I had
which is great for crafting (even though crafting, as great as it is, sits as a secondary thing when people barely have use for it, blame the whole "best gear comes from coil" crap (this could be fixed if there were multiple sets of the highest end gear between crafts and multiple events or gear that is very very close).
As for combat Foom is right, your stuck with the 2 classes for the jobs, even if there are 20 classes it wont matter. I dont mind that honestly but the problem comes when so much is limited to use between classes, there should be more classes subs per job and finally classes themselves are so gimped compared to jobs noone uses them past the point of getting the job.
The class system was far better in 1.0 because it didnt have lower base stats (and each stat didnt count as much) the stats were just less focused and more spread so if your Lancer wants to cast cure of fire, he could do it even if the results were not all that great, but still viable (perticualrly with cures and buff it worked just fine). In AAR when you put on a job not only are the stats more focused, but you get MORE stat points and now that each stat point means far more than it did before, you are extra gimped as a class.
Its a system they should have balanced more from how it was in 1.0 or toss out and just have jobs only (which as it is now would have been the best way to do it). They could honeslty remove classes and people would quickly not care and forget about it. You want a solo job that can use everything? Just put in an "onion" classes (knight/mage or just one) and make the stats more balanced all around and let people use all non job skills.
I agree that crafting should have more importance. It should not provide the best gear though, nor will it ever. .
Your reasoning behind classes is completely flawed though. Now in ARR, you start off archer for example. You get archer skills, then you learn bard and equip that for access to bard skills and a dex bonus. When ranger comes out you can equip that for ranger skills and a dex bonus. This is how the game has to work in order to function and not be a disaster like 1.0.
The reason things like lancers curing in high level 1.0 content was because the games entire structure was a mess and allowed such ridiculous things, and pve progression content was a joke compared to ARR and basically was non existent. The guy who thought it was a good idea to have classes be viable alongside jobs really did a great job himself as you can tell from the response 1.0 got, right?
No lancers want to use cure that's why they're lancers. Nobody wants jobs to be useless either and have classes be just as strong, they can't co-exist on the same power level in a proper made game with end game progression or you break the class trinity and you break real raid content. That is the reason for jobs, and should've been the purpose to begin with....to be stronger than classes which is why you start off as a class...its a fairly simple concept that 1.0 didn't grasp.
Originally posted by CleverjackMy biggest issue with the game was the lack of customization and character growth. I think its funny how you started out being able to make your rotation full of different skills from all the classes, then at hitting lvl 30 the game limits you to your class and the few skills allowed from 1 other class. And end game everyone looks a like and every class uses the same rotation. That makes the game boring and its why I stopped playing. Now when they add the multitude of classes that XI had then maybe it will be worth a look
Unless they drastically change the class system in between now and then it's not going to help you any, as you're just going to be a new class locked into abilities from two other classes.
As a crafter, I have access to 8 other classes abilities. The higher I got, the more options I had
which is great for crafting (even though crafting, as great as it is, sits as a secondary thing when people barely have use for it, blame the whole "best gear comes from coil" crap (this could be fixed if there were multiple sets of the highest end gear between crafts and multiple events or gear that is very very close).
As for combat Foom is right, your stuck with the 2 classes for the jobs, even if there are 20 classes it wont matter. I dont mind that honestly but the problem comes when so much is limited to use between classes, there should be more classes subs per job and finally classes themselves are so gimped compared to jobs noone uses them past the point of getting the job.
The class system was far better in 1.0 because it didnt have lower base stats (and each stat didnt count as much) the stats were just less focused and more spread so if your Lancer wants to cast cure of fire, he could do it even if the results were not all that great, but still viable (perticualrly with cures and buff it worked just fine). In AAR when you put on a job not only are the stats more focused, but you get MORE stat points and now that each stat point means far more than it did before, you are extra gimped as a class.
Its a system they should have balanced more from how it was in 1.0 or toss out and just have jobs only (which as it is now would have been the best way to do it). They could honeslty remove classes and people would quickly not care and forget about it. You want a solo job that can use everything? Just put in an "onion" classes (knight/mage or just one) and make the stats more balanced all around and let people use all non job skills.
I agree that crafting should have more importance. It should not provide the best gear though, nor will it ever. .
Your reasoning behind classes is completely flawed though. Now in ARR, you start off archer for example. You get archer skills, then you learn bard and equip that for access to bard skills and a dex bonus. When ranger comes out you can equip that for ranger skills and a dex bonus. This is how the game has to work in order to function and not be a disaster like 1.0.
The reason things like lancers curing in high level 1.0 content was because the games entire structure was a mess and allowed such ridiculous things, and pve progression content was a joke compared to ARR and basically was non existent. The guy who thought it was a good idea to have classes be viable alongside jobs really did a great job himself as you can tell from the response 1.0 got, right?
No lancers want to use cure that's why they're lancers. Nobody wants jobs to be useless either and have classes be just as strong, they can't co-exist on the same power level in a proper made game with end game progression or you break the class trinity and you break real raid content. That is the reason for jobs, and should've been the purpose to begin with....to be stronger than classes which is why you start off as a class...its a fairly simple concept that 1.0 didn't grasp.
crafting the best should not happen,but something near the top (which imo they need to close the gap on all endgame gear so its not such giant jumps) And as for the class bit, why should lancer not be able to use cure decently? The entire point, even according to Yoshi was that classes were for solo and there so you could use many more of the skills and set more of them. You should have stats shifted around so its more balanced so as any class a cure has some use, or a debuff lands and does something worth while, or a buff works even if none of those are nearly as powerful as how the job would use it.
1.0 classes had some instances where classes were the better choice and i can see there is some possible unbalance, but it was rare and normally revolved around the strength of a certain skill (like lancer using that shielding skill for ifrit). Its nothing some tweaks could not handle and make it so classes have use...even if its only for solo stuff.
Right now classes are a sad joke and serve only to be a starting point for having multiple jobs off them. They need to adjust it so they find some use other than "well i hit 30 and have my job, class is done".
I always felt classes and jobs should branch after level 30, but I guess the devs are more intent on making jobs a specialization of class than anything. They did an ok job with SCH and SMN off of ACN.
If I had my way, I'd make jobs receive their own set of abilities past level 30 (more than the 5 you receive from quests) while having classes receive their own unique set of abilities. This could create two unique styles of play and maybe have it to where classes are more desirable in PvP or something.
I think Yoshi-P understands the corner he's painted himself into, according to an interview posted shortly after E3. He was asked about the class/job system and how they would create a new job off of existing classes but have them not have the exact same skills as the class. He said that they may have to look into changing around the class/job system a bit by the time the expansion launches.
In the example of Gladiator, I wouldn't want a damage based class branching off of it because they only have one primary damage combo, plus all of their actions are oriented towards tanks as several of their abilities have enmity modifiers built in. They would have to really tweak some of the abilities upon changing to a job to make it to where something like a Dark Knight could come off Gladiator.
I kinda don't like the whole class > job thing, and they're still following this formula with Ninja that is to be released within a few months. Rogue is the class and will be a scout type class with poison modifiers, while Ninja will build off of whatever skills Rogue has and add ninjitsu to it. It just seems like the easy way out and limits the creativity they could utilize designing the job.
I always felt classes and jobs should branch after level 30, but I guess the devs are more intent on making jobs a specialization of class than anything. They did an ok job with SCH and SMN off of ACN.
If I had my way, I'd make jobs receive their own set of abilities past level 30 (more than the 5 you receive from quests) while having classes receive their own unique set of abilities. This could create two unique styles of play and maybe have it to where classes are more desirable in PvP or something.
I think Yoshi-P understands the corner he's painted himself into, according to an interview posted shortly after E3. He was asked about the class/job system and how they would create a new job off of existing classes but have them not have the exact same skills as the class. He said that they may have to look into changing around the class/job system a bit by the time the expansion launches.
In the example of Gladiator, I wouldn't want a damage based class branching off of it because they only have one primary damage combo, plus all of their actions are oriented towards tanks as several of their abilities have enmity modifiers built in. They would have to really tweak some of the abilities upon changing to a job to make it to where something like a Dark Knight could come off Gladiator.
I kinda don't like the whole class > job thing, and they're still following this formula with Ninja that is to be released within a few months. Rogue is the class and will be a scout type class with poison modifiers, while Ninja will build off of whatever skills Rogue has and add ninjitsu to it. It just seems like the easy way out and limits the creativity they could utilize designing the job.
I still don't get why they continued it from 1.0 if they didnt like it (and even in 1.0 people just wanted jobs anyways). They should have altered it from the start since so much got re-done, this was one of the worst things to keep. Hopefully whatever changes they make are worth keeping the system in place, otherwise they should just stop holding onto it and flat out change it completely...people honestly wont miss it or blame them for changing it.
I always felt classes and jobs should branch after level 30, but I guess the devs are more intent on making jobs a specialization of class than anything. They did an ok job with SCH and SMN off of ACN.
If I had my way, I'd make jobs receive their own set of abilities past level 30 (more than the 5 you receive from quests) while having classes receive their own unique set of abilities. This could create two unique styles of play and maybe have it to where classes are more desirable in PvP or something.
I think Yoshi-P understands the corner he's painted himself into, according to an interview posted shortly after E3. He was asked about the class/job system and how they would create a new job off of existing classes but have them not have the exact same skills as the class. He said that they may have to look into changing around the class/job system a bit by the time the expansion launches.
In the example of Gladiator, I wouldn't want a damage based class branching off of it because they only have one primary damage combo, plus all of their actions are oriented towards tanks as several of their abilities have enmity modifiers built in. They would have to really tweak some of the abilities upon changing to a job to make it to where something like a Dark Knight could come off Gladiator.
I kinda don't like the whole class > job thing, and they're still following this formula with Ninja that is to be released within a few months. Rogue is the class and will be a scout type class with poison modifiers, while Ninja will build off of whatever skills Rogue has and add ninjitsu to it. It just seems like the easy way out and limits the creativity they could utilize designing the job.
I still don't get why they continued it from 1.0 if they didnt like it (and even in 1.0 people just wanted jobs anyways). They should have altered it from the start since so much got re-done, this was one of the worst things to keep. Hopefully whatever changes they make are worth keeping the system in place, otherwise they should just stop holding onto it and flat out change it completely...people honestly wont miss it or blame them for changing it.
Yeah, I secretly wished they ditched the 1.0 armoury system because it limits the purpose of each individual class. Also fail to see the point in adding in another DPS class when we need more tanks. And to add to that I don't really get how a bandit/petty thief = professional assassin. And daggers = katanas? I had fears that things like this were going to happen.
Originally posted by CleverjackMy biggest issue with the game was the lack of customization and character growth. I think its funny how you started out being able to make your rotation full of different skills from all the classes, then at hitting lvl 30 the game limits you to your class and the few skills allowed from 1 other class. And end game everyone looks a like and every class uses the same rotation. That makes the game boring and its why I stopped playing. Now when they add the multitude of classes that XI had then maybe it will be worth a look
Unless they drastically change the class system in between now and then it's not going to help you any, as you're just going to be a new class locked into abilities from two other classes.
As a crafter, I have access to 8 other classes abilities. The higher I got, the more options I had
which is great for crafting (even though crafting, as great as it is, sits as a secondary thing when people barely have use for it, blame the whole "best gear comes from coil" crap (this could be fixed if there were multiple sets of the highest end gear between crafts and multiple events or gear that is very very close).
As for combat Foom is right, your stuck with the 2 classes for the jobs, even if there are 20 classes it wont matter. I dont mind that honestly but the problem comes when so much is limited to use between classes, there should be more classes subs per job and finally classes themselves are so gimped compared to jobs noone uses them past the point of getting the job.
The class system was far better in 1.0 because it didnt have lower base stats (and each stat didnt count as much) the stats were just less focused and more spread so if your Lancer wants to cast cure of fire, he could do it even if the results were not all that great, but still viable (perticualrly with cures and buff it worked just fine). In AAR when you put on a job not only are the stats more focused, but you get MORE stat points and now that each stat point means far more than it did before, you are extra gimped as a class.
Its a system they should have balanced more from how it was in 1.0 or toss out and just have jobs only (which as it is now would have been the best way to do it). They could honeslty remove classes and people would quickly not care and forget about it. You want a solo job that can use everything? Just put in an "onion" classes (knight/mage or just one) and make the stats more balanced all around and let people use all non job skills.
I agree that crafting should have more importance. It should not provide the best gear though, nor will it ever. .
Your reasoning behind classes is completely flawed though. Now in ARR, you start off archer for example. You get archer skills, then you learn bard and equip that for access to bard skills and a dex bonus. When ranger comes out you can equip that for ranger skills and a dex bonus. This is how the game has to work in order to function and not be a disaster like 1.0.
The reason things like lancers curing in high level 1.0 content was because the games entire structure was a mess and allowed such ridiculous things, and pve progression content was a joke compared to ARR and basically was non existent. The guy who thought it was a good idea to have classes be viable alongside jobs really did a great job himself as you can tell from the response 1.0 got, right?
No lancers want to use cure that's why they're lancers. Nobody wants jobs to be useless either and have classes be just as strong, they can't co-exist on the same power level in a proper made game with end game progression or you break the class trinity and you break real raid content. That is the reason for jobs, and should've been the purpose to begin with....to be stronger than classes which is why you start off as a class...its a fairly simple concept that 1.0 didn't grasp.
crafting the best should not happen,but something near the top (which imo they need to close the gap on all endgame gear so its not such giant jumps) And as for the class bit, why should lancer not be able to use cure decently? The entire point, even according to Yoshi was that classes were for solo and there so you could use many more of the skills and set more of them. You should have stats shifted around so its more balanced so as any class a cure has some use, or a debuff lands and does something worth while, or a buff works even if none of those are nearly as powerful as how the job would use it.
1.0 classes had some instances where classes were the better choice and i can see there is some possible unbalance, but it was rare and normally revolved around the strength of a certain skill (like lancer using that shielding skill for ifrit). Its nothing some tweaks could not handle and make it so classes have use...even if its only for solo stuff.
Right now classes are a sad joke and serve only to be a starting point for having multiple jobs off them. They need to adjust it so they find some use other than "well i hit 30 and have my job, class is done".
Yes thats the point though. Classes are the starting point for jobs and it maintains balance and purpose. Would you be happier if they called jobs classes or something? There is no reasoning for them to make jobs less powerful and classes more powerful and you're probably the only person I've ever heard want that. Nobody wants anything that 1.0 did, ever.
Why should a lancer not be able to use cure effectively? Because they would never do that in a well made MMO. They'd be executing their dps combo, and filling their role as dps. LIke i said, doing what you propose breaks balance and breaks purpose. Lancers don't need cure for solo play either, everyone is fine in solo play currently. Do you just really want to cure on a strength user?
Yeah, I secretly wished they ditched the 1.0 armoury system because it limits the purpose of each individual class. Also fail to see the point in adding in another DPS class when we need more tanks. And to add to that I don't really get how a bandit/petty thief = professional assassin. And daggers = katanas? I had fears that things like this were going to happen.
Thief/Archer became Ninja back in final fantasy tactics also so this is nothing new
Originally posted by CleverjackMy biggest issue with the game was the lack of customization and character growth. I think its funny how you started out being able to make your rotation full of different skills from all the classes, then at hitting lvl 30 the game limits you to your class and the few skills allowed from 1 other class. And end game everyone looks a like and every class uses the same rotation. That makes the game boring and its why I stopped playing. Now when they add the multitude of classes that XI had then maybe it will be worth a look
Unless they drastically change the class system in between now and then it's not going to help you any, as you're just going to be a new class locked into abilities from two other classes.
As a crafter, I have access to 8 other classes abilities. The higher I got, the more options I had
which is great for crafting (even though crafting, as great as it is, sits as a secondary thing when people barely have use for it, blame the whole "best gear comes from coil" crap (this could be fixed if there were multiple sets of the highest end gear between crafts and multiple events or gear that is very very close).
As for combat Foom is right, your stuck with the 2 classes for the jobs, even if there are 20 classes it wont matter. I dont mind that honestly but the problem comes when so much is limited to use between classes, there should be more classes subs per job and finally classes themselves are so gimped compared to jobs noone uses them past the point of getting the job.
The class system was far better in 1.0 because it didnt have lower base stats (and each stat didnt count as much) the stats were just less focused and more spread so if your Lancer wants to cast cure of fire, he could do it even if the results were not all that great, but still viable (perticualrly with cures and buff it worked just fine). In AAR when you put on a job not only are the stats more focused, but you get MORE stat points and now that each stat point means far more than it did before, you are extra gimped as a class.
Its a system they should have balanced more from how it was in 1.0 or toss out and just have jobs only (which as it is now would have been the best way to do it). They could honeslty remove classes and people would quickly not care and forget about it. You want a solo job that can use everything? Just put in an "onion" classes (knight/mage or just one) and make the stats more balanced all around and let people use all non job skills.
I agree that crafting should have more importance. It should not provide the best gear though, nor will it ever. .
Your reasoning behind classes is completely flawed though. Now in ARR, you start off archer for example. You get archer skills, then you learn bard and equip that for access to bard skills and a dex bonus. When ranger comes out you can equip that for ranger skills and a dex bonus. This is how the game has to work in order to function and not be a disaster like 1.0.
The reason things like lancers curing in high level 1.0 content was because the games entire structure was a mess and allowed such ridiculous things, and pve progression content was a joke compared to ARR and basically was non existent. The guy who thought it was a good idea to have classes be viable alongside jobs really did a great job himself as you can tell from the response 1.0 got, right?
No lancers want to use cure that's why they're lancers. Nobody wants jobs to be useless either and have classes be just as strong, they can't co-exist on the same power level in a proper made game with end game progression or you break the class trinity and you break real raid content. That is the reason for jobs, and should've been the purpose to begin with....to be stronger than classes which is why you start off as a class...its a fairly simple concept that 1.0 didn't grasp.
crafting the best should not happen,but something near the top (which imo they need to close the gap on all endgame gear so its not such giant jumps) And as for the class bit, why should lancer not be able to use cure decently? The entire point, even according to Yoshi was that classes were for solo and there so you could use many more of the skills and set more of them. You should have stats shifted around so its more balanced so as any class a cure has some use, or a debuff lands and does something worth while, or a buff works even if none of those are nearly as powerful as how the job would use it.
1.0 classes had some instances where classes were the better choice and i can see there is some possible unbalance, but it was rare and normally revolved around the strength of a certain skill (like lancer using that shielding skill for ifrit). Its nothing some tweaks could not handle and make it so classes have use...even if its only for solo stuff.
Right now classes are a sad joke and serve only to be a starting point for having multiple jobs off them. They need to adjust it so they find some use other than "well i hit 30 and have my job, class is done".
Yes thats the point though. Classes are the starting point for jobs and it maintains balance and purpose. Would you be happier if they called jobs classes or something? There is no reasoning for them to make jobs less powerful and classes more powerful and you're probably the only person I've ever heard want that. Nobody wants anything that 1.0 did, ever.
Why should a lancer not be able to use cure effectively? Because they would never do that in a well made MMO. They'd be executing their dps combo, and filling their role as dps. LIke i said, doing what you propose breaks balance and breaks purpose. Lancers don't need cure for solo play either, everyone is fine in solo play currently. Do you just really want to cure on a strength user?
Make jobs weaker and classes stronger? when did i even mention that? My point was that jobs trump the hell out of classes even when it comes to the purpose of soloing. What 1.0 did right was when you equiped a job, it didnt just add a ton of stat points, it made them fit the role. Classes were left to be more even spread so they could still get some use out of all the skills and spells.
Classes entire purpose was to be the "solo" way and be able to use everything instead of being restricted, but they could never be as good as the job version in their intended role (aka: Dragoon will always outdamge and outlast, along with specific skills only the job gets)
Solo play is fine right now because its a joke, anyone on just about any job (even naked) can take out stuff their level and higher like its no big deal. In fact a large thread was on the forums making fun of how "not threatning" anything is in the games world (which had a video of a severly gimp and mostly naked warrior trouncing tons of same level mobs like they didnt matter). The entire point of classes were to be the little bits of everything so they could be more self sufficent.
Also people clearly do still want things from 1.0 back (at least after 1.2x) and if you dont think so you must not have ever been on the main forums, because those kinds of threads have been around for a long time. They are less often now because people realize the game isnt going to change and be more of the same stuff thats been around for the past decade and have left.
Also you have to be crazy to think this game has more than a million subs, if they did SE would have been screaming it from the roof tops to players and investors instead of all the games they seem to be playing with how many people are playing (oh we have 2 million registered adventures! Over 500k unique players log in!) Please...if it was so damn high we would know.
Comments
Yup, this database hasn't even registered 50% of the characters in the game yet though. A lot of those NA servers like gilgamesh, balmung and leviathan are wayyy higher pop then they are being shown here.
Every other thread of every game forum. ESO ESO ESO. No wonder it's the most popular game on this site.
You can compare the pve if you want, but that's all the same anyways. Quest and dungeons (boring). There is no comparison between the two with regards to PvP though. ESO wins that hands down.
Because the world is AMERICA and the rest is insignificant.
On topic. FFXIV is successful because it delivers what people want, a classic mmorpg experience in a Final Fantasy theme. SE boast nothing at all, they didn't promise something new nor next gen, and they delivered it perfectly.
My thread so i'll derail, how do you compare a tab targeting PvP to action combat PvP?
Should we compare MMORTS's to MMOFPS's? Same goal, different ways of playing entirely.
I hate tab targeting PvP. Thank god FF XIV ARR does not force any kind of PvP down my throat. Hence why I never mentioned PvP in my post.
What I'd like to know is...
Who ever said they don't count if they're not from the West?
All Kyleran said was, "If they have 2M subs, they are not players from the west."
That's literally all they said. It's a direct quote, in fact.
I read that to mean that, at least on Western servers, they're not seeing a population hinting at 2M subs overall. It implies that perhaps the majority of the population is on the Eastern servers - again, from their perspective.
They say nothing at all, at any point, about "Eastern players not counting as real players", or anything like that.
Funny how others go straight into projection mode, spraying their xenophobia all over the place, while trying to attribute it to Kyleran's remark, which said nothing of the sort.
Gaming Forums: Where strawmen thrive and context is ignored.
I'm sure that was intended to be a swipe at TSW... But it really makes no sense. You're trying too hard and not thinking through your remarks.
What does the "overall quality of TSW" (in your opinion), have to do with how good its dungeons are?
The dungeons are fun because the dungeons are fun. If you don't like the rest of the game, then you don't like the rest of the game. The two are not mutually exclusive.
In fact, many MMOs have been described as having really strong "insert feature here", but being weak in everything else. Of course, that's based on the experience and opinion of the person making the remark. Even ARR has had similar opinions voiced about it.
That said, I'd have loved to see the kind of depth put into FFXIV's quests that TSW has. I'd have loved to see puzzles that are actual puzzles that aren't spelled out for you. The dungeons in XIV were, to me, fun. Nothing amazing, but fun. They may have been more fun if not for the douchebaggery experienced so often thanks to the horribly toxic and intolerant community that game has developed. The quests in XIV were as cookie-cutter style filler as you can get... with the occasional exception of main storyline quests - and even those were marred by blatantly time-wasting filler, such as the whole:
- BEGIN POSSIBLE SPOILER -
"Yeah we know you have to go kill Titan... The safety of Eorzea hangs in the balance and all that... but first go run all over to gather these food items for a banquet...". The game even calls itself out on that. I believe it was Y'shtola who remarks on it, when she's incredulous at the time wasting going on in the face of imminent danger. She pretty much echoed my aggravation at how SE so blatantly loaded up the core storyline with such ridiculous filler.
And then there's the whole mess of.. "Oops! Wrong element!" that comes toward the end of the main storyline. That was even worse than the Titan Banquest mess.
Or the whole mess with the Elezen in Coerthas, and having to run back and forth all over the place - literally back and forth to and from the same spot 3 or 4 times in a row just for one branch of a single quest. Lazy, uninspired, time-wasting, quest design.
- END POSSIBLE SPOILER -
I know people love to bash on TSW for its combat (though they never actually explain what they didn't like about the combat... just that they didn't like it), but one thing I will state unequivocally (as my opinion, of course) is... in the story and quest dept, TSW absolutely wipes the floor with XIV. In terms of depth, variety, challenge and relevance to the setting, it's not even a contest. And yes, the dungeons are excellent as well. Even the character dialog in TSW - nevermind the voice acting - makes XIV's best efforts seem amateur by comparison.
In a nutshell: TSW consistently challenges and respects the players' intelligence. ARR treats the player as though they have none.
I'm not sure what game you played.
As a bard main I can tell you that the ranged>melee arguement does not even slightly apply to this game, it is imo, one of the most balanced from a PVE standpoint if not the most balanced.
Bards are not parsing top damage on fights that is well known, yet we are necessary in every group why?
-We have fast and consistent damage output and a lot of burst CD's
-We generate mana and TP for the group through our songs
-We have a healer LB as a dps class
Every dps class has their specialty and drawbacks, no one crits harder than a dragoon but their dmg output is much more slow and spread due to the rotation being heavily combo based. Bards have excellent consistent dps but in order to provide mana/tp song take a 20% dmg loss and also rely on bloodletter resets. Black mages have absurd AOE damage but heavier cast times and mana management etc.
Played-Everything
Playing-LoL
In a nutshell: TSW should've been a single player game because it's only good at storytelling.
TSW has a mean story component that is very well done but obviously the drawback was lacking in every part of the MMO side. The replay value in this game for frequent gamers is a laughing matter and that is what MMO's need above all so that they don't turn into another "started p2p went f2p now forgotten". Not special voicing on every single scene.
FFXIV, being an FF title of course, actually has a very strong story on its own and the core parts of it are extremely well written, though as you said one will encounter filler as well which is the drawback when holding side by side others.
Without a doubt though FFXIV nailed everything that TSW didn't, and which is why some filler story quests aren't a big deal. First and foremost progression raid content that groups spend a ton of time dying on and a vertical progression through everything at endgame, even for casuals. In-depth crafting, consistent progression content updates, and most importantly the encouragement and sometimes requirement of grouping. This game drives home the sense of community, where TSW neglects it.
Played-Everything
Playing-LoL
This is what bothers me when people talk about WoW subs. I guess asians don't count? People are people, com'on people!
All nice and stuff, but do I still have to wait 3 seconds in between skills to accomodate console players? I was looking into it then when I saw that I just couldn't play it without falling asleep.
Boycotting EA. Why? They suck, even moreso since 2008.
GCD is 2.5 seconds, which is reduced by the time you hit level cap, and further reduced by gear.
Played-Everything
Playing-LoL
WoW subs include a lot from China and the money the Chinese can afford, when making 25cents a week on average, isn't enough to be significant. People are very ignorant though and fail to realize that the Japanese pay just as the rest of the rich world does. 2million subs probably yeilds more cash than WoW's subs, simply because you can disregard the Chinese revenu.
What Blizzard is doing in China though is getting them accustomed to their brand, which may yeild a lot of ROI in the future. As the American economy stands on pillars of sand, the Chinese economy is growing at a scaringly steady pace and will be surpassing the Americans within 10 years.
Boycotting EA. Why? They suck, even moreso since 2008.
Nice crystal ball you have there.
The Chinese economy was growing at a scaringly steady pace, it has actually slowed and is beginning to strain and break. A little research goes a long way.
The game you are looking for requiring no PvE completion and where you can just jump in and start mindlessly shooting at people is that way - >>>>
... it's called an FPS.
Quit ruining the MMORPG genre with your constant "PvE grind" whines.
Unless they drastically change the class system in between now and then it's not going to help you any, as you're just going to be a new class locked into abilities from two other classes.
As a crafter, I have access to 8 other classes abilities. The higher I got, the more options I had
What does it mean then?
So what if the subs are not from the west?
Why do we have to bring that up, is that even important?
Is eastern subs net different income for the publisher from western subs?
Or is it just a troll post?
which is great for crafting (even though crafting, as great as it is, sits as a secondary thing when people barely have use for it, blame the whole "best gear comes from coil" crap (this could be fixed if there were multiple sets of the highest end gear between crafts and multiple events or gear that is very very close).
As for combat Foom is right, your stuck with the 2 classes for the jobs, even if there are 20 classes it wont matter. I dont mind that honestly but the problem comes when so much is limited to use between classes, there should be more classes subs per job and finally classes themselves are so gimped compared to jobs noone uses them past the point of getting the job.
The class system was far better in 1.0 because it didnt have lower base stats (and each stat didnt count as much) the stats were just less focused and more spread so if your Lancer wants to cast cure of fire, he could do it even if the results were not all that great, but still viable (perticualrly with cures and buff it worked just fine). In AAR when you put on a job not only are the stats more focused, but you get MORE stat points and now that each stat point means far more than it did before, you are extra gimped as a class.
Its a system they should have balanced more from how it was in 1.0 or toss out and just have jobs only (which as it is now would have been the best way to do it). They could honeslty remove classes and people would quickly not care and forget about it. You want a solo job that can use everything? Just put in an "onion" classes (knight/mage or just one) and make the stats more balanced all around and let people use all non job skills.
I agree that crafting should have more importance. It should not provide the best gear though, nor will it ever. .
Your reasoning behind classes is completely flawed though. Now in ARR, you start off archer for example. You get archer skills, then you learn bard and equip that for access to bard skills and a dex bonus. When ranger comes out you can equip that for ranger skills and a dex bonus. This is how the game has to work in order to function and not be a disaster like 1.0.
The reason things like lancers curing in high level 1.0 content was because the games entire structure was a mess and allowed such ridiculous things, and pve progression content was a joke compared to ARR and basically was non existent. The guy who thought it was a good idea to have classes be viable alongside jobs really did a great job himself as you can tell from the response 1.0 got, right?
No lancers want to use cure that's why they're lancers. Nobody wants jobs to be useless either and have classes be just as strong, they can't co-exist on the same power level in a proper made game with end game progression or you break the class trinity and you break real raid content. That is the reason for jobs, and should've been the purpose to begin with....to be stronger than classes which is why you start off as a class...its a fairly simple concept that 1.0 didn't grasp.
Played-Everything
Playing-LoL
crafting the best should not happen,but something near the top (which imo they need to close the gap on all endgame gear so its not such giant jumps) And as for the class bit, why should lancer not be able to use cure decently? The entire point, even according to Yoshi was that classes were for solo and there so you could use many more of the skills and set more of them. You should have stats shifted around so its more balanced so as any class a cure has some use, or a debuff lands and does something worth while, or a buff works even if none of those are nearly as powerful as how the job would use it.
1.0 classes had some instances where classes were the better choice and i can see there is some possible unbalance, but it was rare and normally revolved around the strength of a certain skill (like lancer using that shielding skill for ifrit). Its nothing some tweaks could not handle and make it so classes have use...even if its only for solo stuff.
Right now classes are a sad joke and serve only to be a starting point for having multiple jobs off them. They need to adjust it so they find some use other than "well i hit 30 and have my job, class is done".
I always felt classes and jobs should branch after level 30, but I guess the devs are more intent on making jobs a specialization of class than anything. They did an ok job with SCH and SMN off of ACN.
If I had my way, I'd make jobs receive their own set of abilities past level 30 (more than the 5 you receive from quests) while having classes receive their own unique set of abilities. This could create two unique styles of play and maybe have it to where classes are more desirable in PvP or something.
I think Yoshi-P understands the corner he's painted himself into, according to an interview posted shortly after E3. He was asked about the class/job system and how they would create a new job off of existing classes but have them not have the exact same skills as the class. He said that they may have to look into changing around the class/job system a bit by the time the expansion launches.
In the example of Gladiator, I wouldn't want a damage based class branching off of it because they only have one primary damage combo, plus all of their actions are oriented towards tanks as several of their abilities have enmity modifiers built in. They would have to really tweak some of the abilities upon changing to a job to make it to where something like a Dark Knight could come off Gladiator.
I kinda don't like the whole class > job thing, and they're still following this formula with Ninja that is to be released within a few months. Rogue is the class and will be a scout type class with poison modifiers, while Ninja will build off of whatever skills Rogue has and add ninjitsu to it. It just seems like the easy way out and limits the creativity they could utilize designing the job.
I still don't get why they continued it from 1.0 if they didnt like it (and even in 1.0 people just wanted jobs anyways). They should have altered it from the start since so much got re-done, this was one of the worst things to keep. Hopefully whatever changes they make are worth keeping the system in place, otherwise they should just stop holding onto it and flat out change it completely...people honestly wont miss it or blame them for changing it.
Yeah, I secretly wished they ditched the 1.0 armoury system because it limits the purpose of each individual class. Also fail to see the point in adding in another DPS class when we need more tanks. And to add to that I don't really get how a bandit/petty thief = professional assassin. And daggers = katanas? I had fears that things like this were going to happen.
Yes thats the point though. Classes are the starting point for jobs and it maintains balance and purpose. Would you be happier if they called jobs classes or something? There is no reasoning for them to make jobs less powerful and classes more powerful and you're probably the only person I've ever heard want that. Nobody wants anything that 1.0 did, ever.
Why should a lancer not be able to use cure effectively? Because they would never do that in a well made MMO. They'd be executing their dps combo, and filling their role as dps. LIke i said, doing what you propose breaks balance and breaks purpose. Lancers don't need cure for solo play either, everyone is fine in solo play currently. Do you just really want to cure on a strength user?
Played-Everything
Playing-LoL
Thief/Archer became Ninja back in final fantasy tactics also so this is nothing new
Make jobs weaker and classes stronger? when did i even mention that? My point was that jobs trump the hell out of classes even when it comes to the purpose of soloing. What 1.0 did right was when you equiped a job, it didnt just add a ton of stat points, it made them fit the role. Classes were left to be more even spread so they could still get some use out of all the skills and spells.
Classes entire purpose was to be the "solo" way and be able to use everything instead of being restricted, but they could never be as good as the job version in their intended role (aka: Dragoon will always outdamge and outlast, along with specific skills only the job gets)
Solo play is fine right now because its a joke, anyone on just about any job (even naked) can take out stuff their level and higher like its no big deal. In fact a large thread was on the forums making fun of how "not threatning" anything is in the games world (which had a video of a severly gimp and mostly naked warrior trouncing tons of same level mobs like they didnt matter). The entire point of classes were to be the little bits of everything so they could be more self sufficent.
Also people clearly do still want things from 1.0 back (at least after 1.2x) and if you dont think so you must not have ever been on the main forums, because those kinds of threads have been around for a long time. They are less often now because people realize the game isnt going to change and be more of the same stuff thats been around for the past decade and have left.
Also you have to be crazy to think this game has more than a million subs, if they did SE would have been screaming it from the roof tops to players and investors instead of all the games they seem to be playing with how many people are playing (oh we have 2 million registered adventures! Over 500k unique players log in!) Please...if it was so damn high we would know.