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Why arn't we seeing any progress in MMO design?
Caldicot
Member UncommonPosts: 455
I remember 10-15 years ago how I was longing for "future" games that would blow my mind when it comes to AI, scope, features, longevity etc. Still here I am with the same longing about to give up on the whole industry. Why is everything the same and why arn't we seeing the progress and evolution of gaming as we should have by now? The resources are there so is it something to do with capitalism? I'm not sure.
We got OR and Project Morpheus around the corner. Could it become the next revolution in gaming? All I know for sure is that MMOS are currently dead and Watch Dogs is crap. Where is the AI that actually behaves like real people??
If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe. - Carl Sagan
Comments
Think about how long these games take to make. In the span of time you listed, how many games, say every cycle, could have been made?
It's about 3 - 5 years to make these things.
Also, costs to create them have gone up. Game companies need to not only make their money back but I bet some of them would also like to keep their jobs.
taking risks isn't really high on the priority list for larger game companies.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Just not the kind of progress you want. To be clear, I think you and I want the same kind and I share your disappointment, I'm just saying that we certainly are and have been seeing progress.
Anyway, for AI innovation in the MMO space I think you want to look at EverQuest Next. I'm not aware of anything else trying to catch this genre up with others in this area.
Seems like the answer to that is crowdfunding, which is kind of a double edged sword.
If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe. - Carl Sagan
I think the OP has a good question and I dont have a suggested answer.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
why?
Because of consumers. When you try to innovate you are met with customers who complain, whine and froth at the mouth. Anytime you suggest something new, albeit a new open world pvp system, non pvp'rs whine. When you add themepark features, sandpark lovers whine, when you add sandpark features themeparkers whine.
So bottom line?
BECAUSE NO ONE IS WILLING TO ACTUALLY GIVE PROGRESS A CHANCE BEFORE DECIDING IF THEY HATE IT.
So what do companies who are in the business of making money do? Go with what makes the most money. What makes the most money? Rehashed ideas people feel comfortable with. Its why politics has become such a mess, complacency trumps uncomfortability in all situations now in Human life. Why slave over a new idea or IP if the masses are going to shit on it every chance they get, when you can release the same basic shit from last year with a few minor upgrades and people eat it alive like its the last supper. I know its why I quit working in the industry after a very nice tenure at SCE. It's too frustrating trying to make people happy who will never be so, while the money you are paid on top of the hours you have to work to get anywhere in the damn industry is insane. (I averaged 80-100 hours a week in first party).
The people that are trying to make the world worse never take a day off , why should I. Light up the darkness Bob Marley
You are seeing progress, just not the type of progress most gamers, myself included, want. Lots of progress is occurring in game monetization and hype. Even mindless games are forking in $millions from people who like to be told what to do, even if for a short time, and spend money in the cash shop. Until the average joe gets wise to what a waste of $ that is, I don't expect progress on many other fronts.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
That's just a cop out. The AI in mmo's today is just as primative as it was back in 2001. The only thing that has changed is the graphically quality. If anything mmorpgs have become smaller in scope than they were 10 years ago.
Very true. People are still using the same programming algorithms today as they were 10 years ago.
Because WoW killed the genre.
IF ( (horse) == 'dead' )
beat (horse)
ENDIF
My apologies in advance if my reply is a little less than pleasant, in a slightly snippy mood.
In short, the reason is the consumer. Innovation is the result of consumer demand, corps spend a lot of money analyzing what people spend money on, where their investment efforts should go, and where risk vs return is ultimately the final say on what gets done. If you look at the side bar listing the Game Forums, the vast majority of them are utter crap, little more than the same core game design with minor variations. Why are there so many crappy games? Because gamers pay with time and/or money for them all the while whinning they want something different. Until they kick their digital addiction and spend their resources pursuing other interests, they get what they ask for by way of their actions.
Really the best thing for a gamer to do when they are feeling that general dissatisfaction with their game is take a step back and study the core game play features, how something is done and the game's general design philosophy and then compare it to other titles. This exercise will help them identify what it is they're truly bored with, and it'll let them look at new games and see where they're different and where they're the same. If the gamer then sees its the SOS, they'll know not to waste their time and do something else with it. If enough of the gamer population did this, you'd see the industry change in a fast hurry as their finances would dry up and it'd be do or die.
However, having said that, it'll never happen. Its like politics in the US, we can all agree that shit needs to be done with a eye towards not just the next election but the next several decades, but we keep believing the BS we see on TV and don't do anything about it. Thus we got the hot mess we deserve, because we can't be bothered to part with our habits and we want someone else to do it for us.
Even peace may be purchased at too high a price, and the only time you are completely safe is when you lie in the grave.
Players don't want it?
WOW tried a more realistic approach to AI back in WOTLK in an encounter called Champion Faction. The NPCs will cc players. They will not follow an aggro table and take out healers first. They will use all kind of player abilities?
What happened? Players complained. They nerfed it. And it was never tried again.
More realistic AI does not mean players like it more.
no no no .. it should be ...
While(horse == 'dead') { beat horse }
You don't only do it once with one if statement.
Hmm...wouldn't that depend on how you define progress?
I can sit down for 1 to 2 hours now and feel that I accomplished something - I couldn't do that 15 years ago.
I have options to play solo when I couldn't get into a group - I couldn't do that 15 years ago.
I am able to get into dungeons with much less downtime - I couldn't do that 15 years ago.
I can see moving shadows, grass blowing in the wind, reflections off the water and numerous other graphical improvements - I couldn't do that 15 years ago.
I can use voice chat - I couldn't do that 15 years ago.
I am able to have multiple builds for my character - I couldn't do that 15 years ago.
I am able to see all of the content I am paying for as a casual player - I couldn't do that 15 years ago.
I can retrieve my corpse after death in a timely manner - I couldn't do that 15 years ago.
I can spend time with my friends and family irl and still be uber in game - I couldn't do that 15 years ago.
There are a bazillion games online to choose from - I had very few choices 15 years ago.
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So depending upon your own personal needs/wants for a game - there have been lots and lots of improvements.
But if you really don't think the game development has progressed in 15 years - many of those games are still live.....if those games are soooooo super special - you could play them, still - but don't. Why? Because you know as well as I do that each time you log into EQ you say to yourself....'well, I don't have time for this. I don't have time to spend a year + catching up. I don't want to invest in truly socializing to gain friends and partners in crime. I can't afford to block out 8 am to 2 pm PST to raid each Saturday. I can't afford to raid from 7 pm to midnight on Wednesday, cuz I have to work early.'
And if you aren't saying those things, and you do indeed have the time to invest. Guess what, you are already playing one of the hardcore earlier games.
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What people don't understand is the trade off. What they want is all the modern conveniences with the same 'feel' of investment they had in those older games. If you know how to do that, by all means, design a game for us. Because for the last 15 years, developers have been desperately trying to provide you a game that does all that. But it is hard to get a feeling of investment when you demand to keep the game convenient.
Again - if you have the time - go play an older game. It is exactly what you want. But my suspicion is, just like everyone of these posts that is a copy/paste image of this one - what you want, may not be possible - due to causes having effects.
Pretty much this.
In fact, there are lots of progress. MOBAs. Instanced pvp games like WoT. MMOs that essentially ditch the persistent world and focus on the games. Destiny.
Heck, if MMOs are not becoming better games than just sim worlds, i wouldn't have gone back to the genre in the first place.
Lots of talk about the AI, and I think one of the big, identifiable static features of mmos has always been mob behavior and mob pathing. Essentially, they just sit there waiting to be killed. If you pull them a certain distance, they run back to where they were even though hadn't been guarding anything (though I still remember strafing across zones in eq1 with a train of mobs in tow).
I don't think it would be particularly hard to change this, but I also wonder how many of today's players would actually be willing to hunt down the animals they needed to kill, or would like going afk in a forest clearing only to have a pack of beasts sneak up from behind and swarm them. Would having bandit npcs ambush you while you were out gathering a seemingly safe area still be considered ganking? How 'bout getting mugged inside a main city?
I wouldn't say there hasn't been any improvement. I still remember playing Chronicles of Spellborn and watching as people got stomped by the bears in the starting zone because they tried to face tank instead of dodging out of attacks like almost every mmo before it.
People keep buying the same old designed games with new skins. Why redesign what is still selling with the risk of not selling with new and possibly better untested ideas?
Said the farrier to Henry Ford.
May be MMO is not where you look for challenging mob behavior? There are plenty of ARPGs where even trash mobs are challenging.
Personal affordable transportation and a game are not even in the same galaxy of things to compare to one another, but nice try.
Lol another thread about this. Sorry but i had to say it.
We already know that players think they don't have lot's of things to do, but in reality the problem is not the genre or the programmers it is you the players.
Here is a list of what you find in mmorpgs and some of those games actually have everything i will list and let me say that this list is more then enough type of content and features.
- Housing
- Arenas, BG's
- Rated Arenas, BG's
- Warplots ( buils your own arenas )
- LFG , LFR
- Adventures
- Dungeons
- RP
- Questing ( standard, automatic by walking into an area, or by receiving the quest automaticaly by the system, by killing things, rift style quests system ).
- AI that reacts to your play style.
- Trinity system and some without it.
- Mini game that are not even part of the mmorpg genre like mini qbert or jump on platforms kinda thing so old that even my grand-mother was playing when she was a kid.
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Mmorpgs are not suppose to have everything the others game have, stop trying to add more stuff to do because you found ways to skip the content and levelup so fast that you are bored 1 week after the game is out because you are 1 of the 2 % of the players base that made it to top level. You skip all the content they give you and then cry there is nothing revolutionary. All those features where not part of mmorpgs when the genre came out on the market it was added by devs because players requested them. And again they complain.
What i am trying to say here is stop requesting things you won't even try out. You are like little kids that cry to there moms to have a certain type of candy but then he gets it and cry it is not good. Grow up !!
Just the list i made here is more then what we can ask in a game. You don't have half those features in other type of games.
Besides cost & time restrictions the main reason for lack of progress is that current game designs still sell.
As long as people keep buying this style it will be slow to change.
I think everything has already been done, that can be done until we jump to true VR. That too will be limited to more or less sitting in your house wearing some visors still pretending to be "there".
I could be wrong...
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