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Carrot-on-a-stick
delete5230
Member EpicPosts: 7,081
It's been a month since I played, but I'm sitting here reflecting back on my adventures with ESO and several other mmos.
Like most newer mmos, Elders Scrolls has it's share of dislikes. I could list them, but there are nothing new. There the same complaints everyone comes to find.......All of them build up and eventually become intolerable to the point of quitting after the honeymoon.
Sure as with all topics, someone will come here and put a spin on it. But at the end of the day, facts are still facts and it's oblivious that this game is loosing steam at a geometric rate here and in game....Much like all other newer mmos.
Now, Putting aside EVERY THING ELSE, I would like to talk about the carrot-on-a-stick game play. It's on rails, but Elders Scrolls is somewhat tricky about it !.......So tricky that it took until right now to realize. A month after playing. The game is totally on-rails.
Glenumbra- You move by level from Bottom to top, at the end you can explore the entire zone.
Stormhaven- Left to right, at the end you can explore the zone.
Rivenspire- Middle to top, and so on.
If not for the Mega Sever and hidden name plates it would be like clock work following along the story line with twenty like minded level 17s, all questing in exactly the same spot. FOLLOWING A SCRIPTED STORY, with only a Dungeon Finder to break it up.....Just like Rift and so many others.
It's all the little things. The so called 2014 state-of-the-art innovations that are killing all mmos.....Are they even mmos anymore ?
Comments
It's just game craft.
It's not that carrot on a stick is something terrible like skin cancer really. There are still a lot of good games that receive praise from people that follow that basic model and they're good for it. ESO wants to tell a story like any other TES game, but I think for the scale of the game and the complexity of a story telling game when mixed with other players.. They had to go back to basics to make it achievable within their time and budget scopes.
As gamers our minds go nuts when we think of what could and should be done with so many players in one place in such an iconic IP as the Elder Scroll games that when we think of how it should've been.. It just seems like that back to basics approach is a cop out.
I beta tested the game, saw more of the things I dislike about MMOs than the things I like about them and knew it wouldn't be something that'd keep my attention for very long. I could go on and on about what I'd like to have seen differently, but it didn't matter during beta testing cuz it was pretty much a bug hunt (and I helped best I could) and it won't now.
Game companies, developers, investors, and players need to figure out what's missing from MMOs. I know what I'd want, but there's a very vocal minority that cries out in sheer terror whenever you suggest having players star as the opposing forces in a MMO's story being told. I think the tech and logistics could have gave us a game that met TES description of it's past with less hand holding, but it's more predictable to put the rungs on a ladder and let you get there the way they want you to.
a yo ho ho
You can go where ever you want... The only thing limiting your freedom in pve land is your ability to do the quests.
The directional thing you talked about, you created, all in your head.
You can go anywhere you want and do what exactly? you can not quest, you can not gather resources... you can not explore due to high level mobs.
So what is the point of 'go anywhere"? if it was GW2 kind of exploration i would agree with you but it is not the same with ESO.
So nope you can not go anywhere you like because you need skill points to advance your character and those come through only questing.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney
It's called computer game, and people buying it know how it works. What is exactly the problem here? Your group of people "bored with same old" is pretty tiny, everyone else is playing and enjoying.
Cmon Bc, be honest at least, the game's zones are designed exactly as he stated, a fact I noticed in the first mainland zone when I worked through one side of the land to the top, and the hooked back around and down the opposite coast.
By the time I got back to the bottom I had actually out-leveled the content because I had mistakenly not gone left to right as I moved from bottom to top.
I completed the next few zones as he described and was able to keep the content level appropriate.
Up to the user if this is a bad thing or not, didn't really bother me that there was a pattern to follow, but you can't call this a game that promotes player freedom, there is definitely a script to follow and optimal performance requires you follow it.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Thanks delete5230 for explaining your playstyle.
Glad I don't play ESO like you do nor have to play it that way.
But thanks anyway.
Sure the only limit is in killing, I have done several level 15/20 + quest above my own level because I explored and found them. While there was no killing involved because obviously I don't really stand a change but apart from that there is no stopping me to exlore where I want. Love getting resources out of those places which is actually rather challenging to try not to get instant killed with one hit or shot.
Thought of leaving al little screenie of one of the examples before someone might say it's not possible.
The only characters that could freely travel the world irrespective of level were the bots....and that is because they were hacking. As a level 1 could I go to any of the following?
An enemy factions lands?
An enemy factions VR lands?
Cyrodil?
Any region above my level range of quests?
And if you could get to these locations what could you so?
Answers on a postcard please!
Seriously, please provide answers.
I like to add if I personaly would feel that the game would be on rails to much I would have stopped playing because I really don't like games when they are obviously on rails.
If you can't see the game is on rails you are not looking hard enough. And the examples you gave are not enough to warrant the defence of some stating you are freedom of movement.
The game was not bad but it wasn't good either. Meh at best.
But not surprising, companies that are trying to rehash the same old game formula for the past 12 years are going to produce mediocre games no matter the budget.
I enjoy what is given and if it's gives me a certain freedom I can expect from a Themepark game then it's freedom for me.
Looking hard for things that might be wrong can be done in about any game even games that have made millions and millions or are truly called succesfull.
Sure if you want ESO can hold your hand if you're that type of player, Sorry I'm not that type of gamer. But I have noticed that's very hard to understand for many people around these forums.
I mostly play themeparks, usually because developers can't make a sandbox game without adding FFA PVP full loot and have a balanced risk/loss design (And the associated dicks that come with it of course).
No problem with level design games, gear progression, character development etc...
But when someone defends a game like ESO and claims it isn't a themepark on rails I call bullshit.
So BCBULLY....bullshit.
To you it may appear that he is the "enemy" in that he left the game and continues to poison your forum with negativity. If you look at it from his perspective, it could be viewed that you are his "enemy" in that you are a person who continues to play the game, thereby accepting the game for what it is...shortfalls and all...allowing the game to continue down the proverbial downward spiral and paving the way for companies to make money off of negligent game design...so on and so forth...
I'm not saying that you are a person who would stand for such unethicality any more than a person would rise to the defense of playing Words With Friends on an airplane. I would like to think that we are all above making personal attacks and can join in on the discussion of what would make this game better. The fact that he is still on this forum denotes his care for the current state of the game and the direction it is going. Perhaps it would be wiser to be less worried about the person who is still paying attention to this game and shift your concern to the multitude of individuals that no longer do.
You need to see both sides. Yes if you just follow the bread crumbs, it is on rails. But I also ignore the rails in each zone. I pick a direction on the map for each zone and look for quest and harvest as I go. You don't have to do everything in order. It feels like you have more freedom. Even if it is a false freedom based on theme park design it is still freedom. I can skip rides and do other things in any order I want. It is slower, but more enjoyable for me.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore
Lulz, You will never hear me say ESO is not a themepark... Feel free to quote where I said as much. It is not on "rails" though. Again you can go where ever you want and pick up any quest. That is not the definition of questing on rails, unless it's changed over the last few days...
Swtor was when the term first came to popularity. Swtor's personal story was questing on rails. You had to do each part in order to progress, in order to move to the next area. ESO simply does not play this way.
fyi edit- all questing sucks, and pve is tired and boring.
And that is a bad thing? It is more open based on zones than most MMOs..especially more open than games like AOC or SWTOR IMO. What is the alternative? To have things level up with you so you can explore anywhere? That is exactly why I heavily modded Oblivion, to create more of a zone feel because having NPCs level up with you just so you can explore anyway to me was absurd.
There Is Always Hope!
Very well said.
I have been vocal about this game because, of all the games I have played over the many years, the game I wanted to be turned into an MMO was Elder scrolls.
When development information was first released I had a few problems, namely the lack of freedom to play any race in any faction and the ability to freely travel the entire map.
These 2 problems still exist. I did buy the version of the game that let me play any race with any faction but it was a paywall and I still disagree with what they did. I would have preferred the entire map open for everyone but, big but, when you choose a faction the aligned area's of the map not aligned with your chosen faction would be hostile to you.
In my humble opinion they messed up from the get go when they chose to make the game PvP focused in their world design. They could have STILL had an open world, 3 faction conflict in Cyrodil for those 'in the army' but allowed everyone not 'enlisted' to do what they want, go where they want and play how they want. You could have had area's in each map requiring higher levels, grouping etc... which would have made the game more ESO, more open, more freedom of choice based and ultimately in my opinion more fun. You wouldn't have needed VR levels, just area's in each zone for higher level content.
But 3 faction PvP was all they could come up with in their design and no wonder when you look at who was in control of the design process.
It was fun for 3 months for what it was but just like other poorly designed games I no longer play and probably never will again.
The 'open based' is an illussion in ESO because even though you can go anywhere the activities are still limited. For me personally 'open world' means a lot more than just aimlessly running around. If that is what it means to be open world then you can do the same in any themepark MMO.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney
If we would be talking sandbox I would agree on your open world definition. For a themepark which ESO is it's atleast to me allot more open then other themeparks.
And I already posted you are indeed limited in choices when you go explore well beyond your level. But there are still playable options, one might or might not like doing.
What many fail to see is that even though you might be doing similar things in other MMO's all games are still different, unless it's played by a person who is not intrested in lore/story or it's quests and just clicks by on all then sure every game will feel the same.
C'mon now. ESO is just as open world as the majority of themeparks (i.e. really not much). AOC and SWTOR included, and in those games exactly the same ways you've ascribed 'openness' to ESO. Doogie is right, the openness in ESO is an illusion, and a pretty flimsy one at that. You'd have to be RP pretty hard to ignore that (as is your choice of course).
eq2 2004
you quested to finally be able to play your full class, going through semi-classes, learning the class.
level 20, you finish a quest and are able to play your class.
before entering one of the cities you had to do the citizenship quest.
the first larger zones, outdoor, not suburbs of the cities, group mobs everywhere. you fought to be able to explore the map. you founded or joined groups so you could beat the group mobs, explore dungeons. to enter dungeons you had to do quests and I with quests I mean, use your brain, read the text (or listen to voice-overs) watch the environment, move back to the city, search die library, talk to npcs.
Later there were access quests for everything.
People would seek guilds and it would make sense to join a guild, to get things done, to progress.
Even 3 years and 3 expansions later you could just log in and find groups who would just form to explore dungeons or gain levels.
They got that right.
Then everyone became greedy and manager said they wanted WoW's success. And WoW clones were everywhere. The decade of shitty cartoon graphics and no content/generic crap and easy mode.
Back in the day developers would create a game they would like to play, they would like to run.
Nowadays some investors say "we want money, create something and our marketing will sell it"
It's not just about the carrot on a stick, the whole perspective is wrong.
Welcome to capitalism... Companies are in the business to make money, or more precisely to generate profits. If they don't, they go out of business. We've seen plenty of companies do that of late.
And the problem is that these MMOs are freakin' expensive to create nowadays. If you risk $100-200 mil on a game, if your business model doesn't expect a return on investment of many times that, you'll probably lose unless you get very lucky, and you know, innovation generally fails more often than it succeeds. Everyone complains about the "suits" and the "bean counters", but hey, if I'm a VC and have given you a big chunk of money, I want to minimize the chance that I've flushed it down the drain. Some of you probably have done kickstarters, but probably only at the "this is really a pre-order" level--think about how you would feel about a game's development if the amount you contributed was say, $10,000 or more and not $10-100.
For example, take games like SWTOR and TESO, both very expensive to make. I bet the art and 3D assets alone, along with voiceovers take up what, maybe 50% of the cost? More? If anyone knows, I'd like to understand that ballpark figure. But in any case, while this aspect, to make the game look and sound GOOD is just about a requirement, what does it really add to the gameplay?
Look at EVE that "only" had to generate ship designs, and had no moving avatars (I'm not even sure there were any narrations, it's been too long). While it's not my kind of game, I have to give it props for sticking to their design, and pouring more and more into gameplay, and not presentation (so much). And this allowed them to debut with only about 40K (yes, I didn't drop any zeroes) in box sales at launch, and dropping to about 20K subs in the first year, and still survive.
I have a hunch that the next "Big" MMO will be (another) one that starts small and focuses on core gameplay and world building--including how to build a "society" that can drive gameplay beyond the concepts that MMOs use, SP RPGs and MOBAs, into something that really draws people in to an open world concept.
Can partially agree on AoC once I got out of the confined Tortage. But in SWtOR the gameworld really felt small and I personally didn't get that explorer fibe from it. Rift is another themepark I had some more freedom "openness". Neverwinter again the same as SWtOR felt truly small for me. Tried FFXIV but couldn't stand "blindwalls" anywhere, couldn't even step of a tiny brigde from the side or jump a bush these type of things might maybe be small to some but it's these little things limit my freedom in other games.
With load screens, Instancing, mega servers, no name plates it's almost hard to call this an mmo. It's more play with people around you doing the same.....But it gets worst, you have to follow a path script. Of curse you don't have to do anything but that's how the game was set up.
Think about this.....You have three starting zones, each with its own adventures and themed graphics. Now this is great, BUT ITS LIKE THREE DIFFRIENT GAMES ! Even World of Warcraft only expected you to play separated from other areas for 1-10.
Yes, WoW had two factions, but it also had 3 choices for each side. And this is way back from 2003, I'll do the math that's 11 years ago. ESO gives you no choices.