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How long are we going to continue to use the "Fast Leveling" excuse for why modern day MMO Populatio
MMOExposed
Member RarePosts: 7,400
How long are we going to continue to use the "Fast Leveling" excuse for why modern day MMO Population dies quickly after release?
I was reading this article on MMORPG.com regarding ESO, and what struck me the wrong way, was the comments, as well as the author of the article, which both pulled the "Fast Leveling Is To Blame" card when it came to reason for the failure of these new MMOs.
I am honestly tired of that argument. Does anybody else ever wonder if there could be other issues at work, that all these modern MMOs share, that are giving these similar results?
I mean honestly, How Long of a Leveling grind does the MMO game have to have so that players dont quit once they reach MAX Level, like they currently do in MMOs now days in your opinion?
Because IMO, no matter how grindy to make the leveling game, when the players reach max level they will still quit, because the true problems are never addressed, and only smoke screens are thrown up to pull attention away from the true issues in these modern MMO games.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
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Core? probably not Contributive? most definitely. But perhaps not solely because of "speed" What is one of the most common refrains developers leaving a project often complain about? Cant keep up with content consumption, their answer? speed the leveling curve and streamline progression so it gets consumed even faster. Yup that's intelligent.
+1 completely agree
I think there are some other issues but I think it all boils down to this in general terms. I would also say the "End Game" being what everyone is racing too is part of the issue. IMHO, an MMO should be about the "journey" not "End Game". However as stated by many people on these boards, that's considered old school MMO design and has no place in this market, which I feel is ludicrous.
Games before wow had a slow ramp up of players, games after wow had a huge influx and a sharp decline. If you are going to make a themepark v sandbox comparison make one with games of the same era.
It is not as clear cut as themepark vs sandbox. SWG was most definetly a sandbox but certain design decisions made it into a 'finite content' game as well. Many players who started at release reached a point where they got a character they liked and did run out of stuff to do with that character. Their only option was to scrap it and start on a different character. Many did not feel like grinding through the same stuff over and over so they quit. NGE was a knee-jerk reaction to all those players quitting about a month or two before the CU.
IMO the core problem are levels to begin with, zones are devided into levels 1-14, 15-25 and so on.
Get rid of levels and make it skills and abilities only that you have to learn or buy.
If you encounter a mob that is obvious stronger than you, get friends to help or return later when you have better gear and alittle more training under your belt.
With this system you have the whole gaming world as your playground and not restricted to linear progression path, this i think will make people stay longer, there are always something new to see and experience, some new skills or abilities to get.
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
I personally don't think it's fast leveling making people leave, I think it's the endgame content in not all but some mmos. There's just not enough for people to do when they reach max level, hence why they're moving on.
MMO's are not mmos for community. Without that players don't have a reason to stay.
Whats to stay for if you learn all the features and hit end game ?
I'm playing Vanilla WoW and it's taking me weeks and weeks of casual play just to get my Warlock to level 44. Finally finished Uldaman after 3x for group wipes. Now to get a group for ZF but only high levels will be invited and I'll know I'll have to put aside 2 hours, maybe 3 in case things go bad.....Now this is mmo play
I agree on the leveling speed part. Actually, making leveling longer these days may actually hurt your game. People like having alts and like experiencing different classes, etc. So getting rid of leveling speed means moving to a classless system, or just let people level quickly. In the end, the keeners will find a way to game the system anyway, and you'll only really turn off the people who want the 100-200 hour story.
I actually don't like the examples of EVE and SWG as the solutions, though. The biggest issue facing these games is also their biggest upside, that's their complexity. Games like EVE and SWG are great for people who love theorycrafting, etc. People who love mucking around with Excel, or Access, or some other means of organizing their data. Who they suck for is anyone wanting to pick up a game and play it. If you play EVE and you don't have at LEAST one notebook on your desk dedicated to EVE then you're probably doing it wrong. For this reason, these games will never have the same accessibility as a themepark game will.
Honestly, I think that the key is in the progression. It's all about having well timed, consistent and continuous rewards, like you're giving your dog a treat. If that progression aspect tails off with your end game then people will leave. It's the one thing that Blizzard does really well with WoW. Despite their simplistic design and gameplay, they are able to create a very compelling end game experience. Now, that said, they won't necessarily retain 100% of their audience, but they certainly seem to balance their content releases in such a way as they see the maximum return of players for new content, when it does come out. I've played plenty of games, and can't really say I've found one that is able to deliver a progression system even close to what WoW does.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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I don't see that stupidity ending any time soon.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
How long are people going to keep saying that moderately successful games should define the genre to the exclusion of different flavors?
Black and white, things are not.
Because, if you really look at it... really really really look at it, MMOs used to take a lot of time to do things...
to level...
to travel...
to craft...
to attune...
to gear up...
to progress...
Thus, it is because everything is "faster" now that they all lose interest quicker. People wanted convenience... they paid for it with a massive loss in game time. It's also why automating a factory eliminates a work force. You can't have one without losing the other.
Sorry to say this folks... you did it to yourselves.
The problem is people that complain...
I remember when people complained about "Twinking" and then it became an industry standard to level restrict items. Twinking is what made high levels play low level characters again...
People complained about "raids" and most of the MMO scene dropped raids...
People complained about Camping, placeholders, etc... Everything is now instanced....
It is all you people that complained about issues that made the genre what it is .... You have no one to blame except yourselves.
The problem (?) isn't the "modern MMO" design, it's the players !
The tiny group (compared to today's numbers) who played UO and EQ1 had a strong background in slower gaming experiences, especially PnP sessions. So they largely accepted the "grindy" aspects and slow progression of those early games. They were basically a niche market.
Once the MMO playerbase ballooned from a few hundred thousand to tens of millions, the hardcore RPG crowd was entirely eclipsed by the "Super Mario Generation". Now the average player plays new MMO's like SPG's, and they get bored and want something new after 2 to 3 months, regardless of whether they "beat the game" or not.
Personally to me, its not the leveling speed that cause the problem.
Its what the game present to the players if they want them to level slower? What they offer at end game if they want the players to level faster?
I love vanilla WoW, because i run from level 1 to 40.
Its during the running that i greatly appreciate the beautiful worlds that blizz created, the seamless world.
I remember going to a beach, forget isit SoS just to watch sunset...
Same thing for Knights online, those running around the seamless world makes me really feels im in a world.
So, leveling speed is not the problem, but how the developers design the world to entice the players, to make them wana stay longer at a certain area.
Nowadays, mmo is zoning, no day and night, super linear path, some even without swimming... etc...
Its no longer like the real world, and i believe it also contribute why players wana level fast and get out of it...
RIP Orc Choppa
Yeah, fast levelling isn't really the issue. I've played some themeparks where you can level really quickly if you put some time into it, and others that are REALLY BLOODY SLOW to gain levels. I quit both after the same amount of time. Levelling fast isn't the issue, it's that they're the same damn thing with a different coat of paint. Most of these MMOs have the same types of activities as every other themepark, with flat out microscopic differences between them, so the players don't see anything truly new (Remember, I'm talking about actual activities to do here, not story or graphics or environments).
Where's the any key?
Its sad to say but some of those things even though they can be a burden where what kept me around games like EQ and FFXI so damn long. I took months to cap a job, lots of the endgame and even midgame events took large groups to complete, tons of people got frustrated but got a thrill when they camped and got to claim an NM/boss they waited so long for, traveling took time but you learned the world like the back of our hand, most things were tough even at low level so the community needed one another (it was kind of a cool feeling to be high level and help the low levels do things)
Mix that with an actual feeling of accomplishment because everything was not handed to you like your a dumb child and you have a reason a game like the 2 i mentioned have lasted well over a decade each. Every game i play now feels like 90% single player game which leads you by the nose and has next to nothing to do at lower levels...and you have no reason to do it with others either.
Im bored of seeing everything be built for the lowest common denomiatior (the casual and friendless)
im sick of solo everything in a genre called MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE
im over having reaching cap take a week or 2
im done with everything being instanced and having no use for a world
im yearning for some real depth to things, gear, stats, complex mechanics..ect
im tired of the new "challange" being dodging circles, memorizing a script or mashing my keyboard faster (action is the new "it" child)
Mostly im not having fun with 99% of the MMOs out these days..even with so damn many are made and yet few can not only keep a afloat for more than a year without shutting down or going free to play, but they hype to death saying they are doing something so new and amazing, but end up doing pretty much the same crap we have seen in the last game but with some new gimmick.
P.S. it gets old having every patch make what i just spent all that time earning become complete garbage just to do basically the same thing again and get basically the same sh*t again with higher numbers.
The usual one seems to be "because I didn't like it.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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