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So Why Do You Want Trinity?
BailoPan15
Member Posts: 410
So as the title states, why do you personally want the trinity and are willing to raise an alarm when it is not present?
I'm starting yet another thread because I played 2-3 trinity based MMOs in the past month or so including SWTOR and WildStar, and as some of you know I'm vivid Gw2 fan so here's my issue with it
Personal Player Skill - Yes you read it right. The trinity eliminates the player skill. You hide behind your own class and you do "what you are told". Although I must say TERA has the best trinity so far.
But how does it eliminates personal player skill you might ask? Well, for instance, the AI is tuned to screw you up unless you have a healer around. They run faster, you can't get behind the enemy...well you can, but their attacks still get you which makes no sense but whatever. So when that happens, the trinity really "shines". You call your healer buddy and you just stand in 1 place and spam whatever combos your class might have - boring. Or well, you can call more DPS friends and take down the mob before it takes you down. This is super annoying. How do you people even enjoy that O_O
I guess its easier to manage your class this way, do what you are meant to do and never break out of template. Repeat ad infinitum.
But in the age of action combat when every new MMO comes with one, don't you think its a little bit of a limitation not to be able to take on stronger opponents IF you are a good player? This is why I've always loved Bf3 jet piloting and Bf4 sniping. It doesn't matter who you take on as long as you are good. If you are bad you run with the pack and still make the kills but its not as thrilling. In Bf3 i've gone toe to toe with top 10 of the leaderboards with the jet. And no i didn't play for the leaderboard. As such i wasn't there but I had fun and challenge. In that regard I think trinity eliminates not only player skill but it also eliminates the challenge.
Challenge - Yes, that is right. Lets say we picked a DPS class. Let's go against some miniboss-type of a mob. You can't effectively dodge its attacks because, from what i've played, most trinity games do not care where you are at the end of the mob swing, they care where were you at the start, as such, even if you run away, you still get hit. So your only option is to use whatever blocking skills you have and stand there and drop your DPS in hopes it would die before you.
The healer, the class that so many of you love because of the major kissass they get *troll*. What can you do against a stronger opponent? Heal it to death? (lol) I personally don't like the limitation. When they added augmentation in Lineage 2, healers became tons of fun, but before that, not so much.
The tank, now that is the best of the three and for me it is always the most fun. Why? - Because it has everything. It has blocks, it has defenses, it has heals, it has somewhat decent damage. It is a hybrid class, good in everything but not perfect.
As such, don't you think that a hybrid system should take place? Give all classes some basic self-survival skills, get rid of the healer because its quite frankly useless. I know some of you hate the way Gw2 removed trinity and left a soft trinity, but I'm sure it could have a better implementation.
Do you prefer trinity because otherwise dungeons become chaotic? Battles are chaotic. Trinity does bring order to the chaos, but do you really need that order in a battle?
I do understand that some of you want the games to be developed with downtime for recharging and there are quite a bunch of you that don't and that's fine, every train has its passengers. But seriously, why the trinity? Why when it does eliminate so much things that make the action games FUN? I personally don't think the trinity has place in twtich action-based games? What do you think?
I would presume that there is some challenge when you trinity around with bad PUG, but if all members of the group are skilled, every encounter is just some time-wasting until the kill to get the much precious loot.
Could somebody please enlighten me why is there a need of a trinity system in twich action-based MMOs. Games like WildStar, like TESO, like SWTOR, TERA, ArcheAge and so many others released and in production games?
Comments
:looks at calendar:
Yep, bout time another one of these threads pop up.
Well I keep believing that my thread has a different angle than the ones before, with examples and all, and I was hoping for a creative discussion of pros and cons with examples.
Trust me, it's all been said multiple times.
My experience playing so far has been...... Trinity = at least 3 different styles of play and roles.... None Trinity = zergfest... All they really are doing is removing parts of the Trinity.... No healers? Neat, one less playstyle option.... But hey, I want things to go in the other direction..... I miss the days when groups needed tanks, healers, dps, crowd control and pullers.... If you want everyone to be the same for pvp play a fps...
Why do i prefer a trinity? So that full zerker groups aren't formed for everything, become the ONLY way to get into group content, and suddenly every other spec is useless. A year of that garbage. A YEAR. It wasn't challenging. Zerker groups (all groups) would melt bosses in 30 seconds. Is that skill to you?
That game is amazing. It really is, but it's missing one crucial element, and that is the original Guild Wars trinity and skill system. Let me put my 8 skills where i want, and let me heal, deeps, or tank. The competition wouldn't even exist if they had done that.
I was talking strictly PvE. PvP is a gem on its own. Players adjust to anything you throw at them. That's not the case in PvE especially in trinity PvE because the mobs are a bit overpowered in terms of higher speed and doing damage to you while you are away from them without using a ranged attack. This is what really bothers me. No matter how good response times I have as a player, it is voided. MOBAs exploit that, and I think that's why they are so successful on the competitive side.
And well without trinity you are really opened to more interesting classes. Lets take the much hated Gw2
Mesmer - Master illusionist handling variety of weapons to drop damage, conditions or help allies. It does have crowd control too and can teleport players around and themselves. It has interesting mechanics.
Thief - Master of shadows. True many games have a class very similar to Gw2's thief but none of them steal abilities or drop traps
to chokepoint enemies
Warrior - All around best. Specialized in just about everything. It has so many traits and gameplays that it would take a huge wall of text to describe them all
and there are 5 more classes in this game, each one played different and no one like the other. That sums up for 8 classes. 8 different classes with 8 different styles that can only add to the combat.
Zergfest...Are 40-50 man raids not a zergfest my friend? The issue i have with trinity games is the AI. Its so overpowered compared to other players its not even challenging. And without that AI acting the way it does the trinity is pointless because then every class would be 1-man army.
I'm not saying Gw2 has the perfect non-trinity system. I would much rather a dungeon where all 5 players must do some mini task in order to progress. 1 to step on a button while others defend his position while another player goes to do some mini-game in given time. That, is a lot more fun than just taking positions and bash at the whatever boss you went on bashing with occasional healing and CC to avoid wipes. You don't need trinity for mini events.
When I go into work I like to do my job and be able to count on others doing theirs. If it was just a free for all and everyone was responsible for everything, that would be very frustrating for me.
The same thing goes with Trinity vrs non. In trinity everyone has their job to do and no one else is going to do it for them. It's not a do what you like and hope it all works out system and for me that's the way it should be.
As I said Gw2 doesn't have the perfect non-trinity system. But its close enough. And you don't have to zerk to be efficient. I ran with a knights guardian for more than an year, playing party support.
Not to mention that most trinity games nowadays have only 3 classes. DPS, Tank and heal. As the guy above said, there is no CC, its lacking and there is no replacement. All those games limit themselves to 3 types of play and that's saddening.
You must have had a wonderful guild then. Nearly every one that i tried to join required Zerker. End of story. I loved my Guardian support build but it simply didn't have a place, and still doesn't unfortunately.
I will agree on the cc and support classes though. I miss that. I loved filling jobs no one else wanted to do. I miss the game, but i haven't come back because i will always wish it was something that it will never be. It sucks, but it is what it is.
You can easily predefine roles. My biggest hassle with the trinity is that it borderline punishes you for the style of play you've chosen.
You chose DPS? Tough luck my friend, without buddies around or healer to help you out, you're going down and there is not a single thing you can do about. Oh yes, you can run, but who likes running ?
You chose Tank? Cool cool, take that 10 minute encounter for that 0.001% exp and move on. Next time bring DPS to kill faster and progress.
You choose Healer? Yeah well, tough luck. There's nobody to do the killing for you and you are only good at killing. Sorry bro, find someone to do your job or stay there.
This is the definition of annoying. Instead of dungeons/encounters with smart mini events we get...this. It is sad.
Offtopic but, higher level fractals have a need of support guards. Some warriors fulfill that with shouts but yeah support is needed there. Also WvW has great need of those. Support staff guards. If you are not into PvP then idk. But skilled berserkers are the meta game for PvE yep, unless you get ridicilously scaled up fractal.
It promotes grouping. Those roles need each other, therefore grouping is beneficial for everyone. Without that, no one needs anyone, and you have what we have now with this game.
and THAT is the problem, right there. Utterly ridiculous.
Trinity adds another layer of tactics and strategy, what GW2 did, by just removing them, turned the whole grouping part of the game intoo a meaningless button mashing zergfest...
if you take away the trinnity, you need to replace it with something different... Tahts where Gw2 failed.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
It promotes grouping but it promotes certain type of grouping. If you are just 2 people and both of you play DPS or tank or even 2 healers in that regard the chances of failing are great because all encounters are designed with at least 3 of them.
In Gw2 at least you can have every class join you. Necro, ranger, mesmer, just about anything, as long as they put some berserker gear on for the less taxing encounters
Also there are certain dungeons that promote grouping. I'd prefer the content to promote grouping, not the terrible AI. We all know CoF path 1 and we all know that it can be done below 10 minutes. But you can't solo that, you can't duo or triple it. You need 5 members because of the "mini-game" you need to do in order to progress. That is great design right there.
Although I must say that Soldier's makes you somewhat a god. So they got that going on.
And to answer @Lord.Bachus I'll repeat again, Gw2 doesn't have the perfect non-trinity system but it's damn close. With hybrid classes that break the ice and self survival. Smart dodging and line of sight. At least you don't get hit while you are behind your opponent, so that's something. I just love what they've made with the combat in that regard.
Wouldn't you agree that a system where everyone is as strong as their own player skill which can only improve? A system that forces people to split even for a minute or two to do some mini-events in order to progress. Covering each other's backs. I think such system would blow the trinity out of the water. And that it's about time to get a game with one.
I like trinity based combat as you have to think of others (excluding some DPS players
). In games like GW2 you don't, you just have to think about yourself.
Since You like gw2 so much and I find it to be the worst possible way to remove trinity, I think we could only agree to disagree.
So first trinity is not the the question and to me the word trinity represents a simplistic role setup. Wow started to simplify roles and the rest followed and thus we ended up thinking these 3-4 roles are all a mmorpg can offer = trinity. Trinity also seem to be bound with class systems, so even when we see a class system with more than 3 roles, people still call it trinity if they don't like the game.. Easy labelled and into the box.
I am not attached to trinity, but what I want are meaningful roles. Because roles are what bind people together when they play. I want the synergy effect that comes from players playing their (in the situation) role and using other players roles for a combined effect. Every memorable event You have in a game is where You achieved something with other people.
Simple trinity is getting dull, and it is time to move on from the WoW definition of it. Go skill based or re-adopt more class based roles, both works. What doesn't work for a massive multiplayer online ROLE playing game, is removing all roles. Role-less is fine and great that You like gw2 (which got some other ideas right), but for me it got a little dull and pointless after awhile.
Just remembered, Vanguard is an example where a class system tried to expand in the 3 role definition. Everquest had 10+ roles depending on the situation and how You look at it, and some classes had several roles. And ok to be fair WoW had a few extra roles for special occasions.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
I want the trinity because I want people to have to work together to complete the challenge a dungeon or raid sets out. The trinity clearly defines primary roles and responsibilities for people who choose a particular class.
Every MMO I have played to date that has shunned the trinity has sucked, a notable example being GW2. Although GW2 was fun to level up with a few friends the dungeons and end game is a mess. People intentionally make choices and actions that benefit themselves only, such as gimping their own DPS and reserving healing/assist spells for themselves instead of using it to save a groupmate who is about to bite the dust. Don't even get me started about when you add a world event and a bunch of lag to the mix..
The trinity is a proven setup that works; it has done so for many years in many big name AAA MMOs in which millions of dollars have been invested. You don't need to reinvent the wheel here, hybrid classes (think WoW advanced classes where you can switch roles) have already solved the problems people bring up in the trinity setup.
On the contrary, I expect the medics in my team to heal me up if I'm taking fire. I'm expecting them to drop a medic pack.
People want the trinity because it's simple and familiar, and that's all there is to it.
Everyone who's a huge proponent of the trinity model has a different excuse, but it all amounts to this same realization.
Whether combat is, or is not based around a trinity has nothing to do with zerging. I can point to examples of games with both trinity & non-trinity systems that have zergs. Zerging is a biproduct of putting multiple players in the same area, with the same common goal. Nothing more. The trinity also doesn't force players to play together any more than in other games.
Really the only thing the trinity does is simplify combat for you, and tell you exactly what you need to do. You're a healer, you need to heal things. You're a tank? You need to hold aggro on things, because everything magically wants to attack you all the time. You're a DPS? You need to do as much damage as possible. Few games try and break away from this, especially in the trinity model.
What non-trinity games do is force players to think about what they are doing. And in that lies the problem. When you have a bunch of players on autopilot, the combat turns into a mess. You need to pay attention to do well in games with less defined roles, and too many gamers are used to not having to pay attention to do well in these games. GW2 is a great example of this. When your group thinks about the skills you are using, and how they work together, you can do a lot of different strategies and succeed. You can have 5 glass cannons, or 5 tanks, or 5 supports. It really doesn't matter as long as the skills and how you are using them makes sense.
Problem is, most players can't handle this (or don't want to). You see it a lot in MOBAs for example. Those games are not based around the trinity, but you still get a lot of players who try and treat them like it is. People tend to want to rely on a tank to take damage for them, or rely on their healer to keep them alive, and it's just not how combat works. It's more complex, it's more challenging, and it requires you to think on your feet.
Trinity as in Tank + dps + healer + crowd control = works!
I believe that all those years ago when we got our first turn-based rpgs, they made perfection. Any game today according to me that does not have the trinity, does not work. Trinity does not matter if you are a solo player. The trinity is for those who enjoy group content and socializing. There is no mix between the two. If one is favored the other will suffer. There is no middle ground.
Solo play will make content to easy for the people that group up and vice versa. Once gaming companies understand this, they will have to make a choice for what crowd that they are making their game for. Until then, games will fail because middle ground is where it sinks. You can't please everyone.
On the contrary, I expect the medics in my team to heal me up if I'm taking fire. I'm expecting them to drop a medic pack.
They expect you to be somewhere that they can reach you as well. There are some applications for healing, but for instance drop a med kit in BF4, you still need to get to the kit, and just like in borderlands 2 , the healing class is not just a healer, they are effective cc, suppression, and damage dealers. Sci fi shooters use a health bar and over shield regeneration over time, need help regenerating? Have a teammate cc, kill, trap, taunt, ....