It's really too bad that most of the people involved with EQ in the old days, like Aradune, can't seem to fathom that EQ sucked. I mean really I was there, I'm one of the 'veterans' I remember the first year I played my rogue having really no worth beyond my desire to roleplay a rogue.
The fact I stayed in EQ or nearly 5 years had nothing to do with 'liking' over crowded zones, being forced to group, and the massive timesinks. They were because there was nothing else to play. There might be a core of people that like sinking years of time into a game just to get level 70, but I'm not one of them, and if your game has no real 'content' to offer aside from forcing me to get in a group and grind for 8 hours at a time to level then it's not one I'm going to waste money on.
Originally posted by shanar It's really too bad that most of the people involved with EQ in the old days, like Aradune, can't seem to fathom that EQ sucked. I mean really I was there, I'm one of the 'veterans' I remember the first year I played my rogue having really no worth beyond my desire to roleplay a rogue. The fact I stayed in EQ or nearly 5 years had nothing to do with 'liking' over crowded zones, being forced to group, and the massive timesinks. They were because there was nothing else to play. There might be a core of people that like sinking years of time into a game just to get level 70, but I'm not one of them, and if your game has no real 'content' to offer aside from forcing me to get in a group and grind for 8 hours at a time to level then it's not one I'm going to waste money on.
in YOUR opinion EQ sucked, i respect that, but you must realize that is just your opinion, a lot of players dont share your views.
Vanguard is not going to be EQ, it will share some features, but is not going to be another EQ.
I am one of those "vet" players and i personally think that a game that starts classifying players in categories is a game that really sucks.
In summary, all they are saying the game will have are the same things that people were hating at the beginning (well at the end too). Now they are announcing them again as the big thing in MMOs and you all are buying the same BS all over again. Camping mobs, slow progression, forced grouping, uber raids to get an item...etc, etc.
Ohh..dont get me wrong, I will be there too..i dont mind spending a couple of bucks just to see if there is something there that attracts me to stay, i dont think so, but i have to give it a try.
Originally posted by Pasho I am one of those "vet" players and i personally think that a game that starts classifying players in categories is a game that really sucks.
Why? most single player games do that, you can be a fps player, a rts player, a rpg player... Now we have reached a point where the MMOG genere is mature, now we have a lot of options and a lot of playstyles, one game cant cover every playstyle since some of them are incompatible. So we need to classify players, some players will love casual players while others will prefer "hardcore" games.
In summary, all they are saying the game will have are the same things that people were hating at the beginning (well at the end too). Now they are announcing them again as the big thing in MMOs and you all are buying the same BS all over again. Camping mobs, slow progression, forced grouping, uber raids to get an item...etc, etc.
Vanguard is not going to have camping, at least not in a large scale. You will be able to play without a group, and you will be able to craft highend items so there is no real need for uber raids in order to get some of the best items. Most items will be droppable, you will be able to buy and sell almost every item so you are not forced to join an uber raid in order to get that "uber sword of doom".
And finally, slow progression is a necesary evil, a fast progression game will last less time because you will find yourself without objetives pretty soon. Slowing your progression is the only way to ensure that you are going to have chalenges during a long time.
Gretesh, first of all i have to congratulate your post. Although it is an opposite opinnion, it is written very well addressed, very polite, and with depth. Congratulations..really.
Now, on our subject, let me quote what Brad Mcquaid have said in other interviews in reference to items available to people who dont like raid groups:
"Well, it's not really our total goal to keep the more casual gamer on par with the gamer who can devote more hours and/or is more talented or connected in-game and therefore achieves success more quickly. Again, this ties into what makes the game feel immersive -- when you see someone with higher end items on, the player thinks to himself, wow, I want to earn one of those one day. So while we do have areas in Vanguard more designed for the casual player, the rewards (and the risks) in those areas will absolutely not be on par with the risk and reward that exists in the group and raid areas of the game"
After that he said when asked about the soloable options:
"There will be casual, group, and raid areas. The game isn't being designed as a solo game, but at the same time soloing will be possible (although grouping will always, regardless of where you are at, be to your advantage). I was asked recently what soloing would be like, whether it would be more like WoW soloing, or old-school EQ soloing, and while it will be different than both, if I had to choose, it will be more like EQ was -- you could solo, but grouping was always to your advantage."
The key word here is: "The game isn't being designed as a solo game"...see my point now?
If you put together both paragraphs, you will automatically see that the game will have a small part for solo, that grouping is almost a need, and that you will need to be in raid groups in order to get the "super-uber-sword of doom" as you call it before....
He said: "it will be more like EQ was"......come on...EQ was that huge hit cause there was nothing else to compare it to. There were no more options. Now we have them.
I really hope the game doesnt end as EQ2...which really sucks.
Originally posted by Copeland While i agree with Brad's approach to making the game viable over a long period the fact remains that if a games mechanics suck ie. EQ2 then it doesnt matter what your goal is for retention. EQ2 was meant for long term retention but i believe most of its subscription numbers are due to SOE's all access pass rather than actual numbers of people playing. So from what i've read theres alot of EQ2 ideas going into Vanguard with yes a little bit of new stuff. The majority of EQ2's system wasnt very appealing to me. Lockout combat is stupid. Heroic Opportunities are stupid. Fighting a tradeskill contraption is yet 1 more reason why tradeskills are stupid (when did a carpenter ever die to a lathe?). The seperation of group mobs and solo mobs is stupid ( gee thanks for marking it group i'd hate to actually die or something). Mass instancing is the death of mmorpgs as ddo will learn the hard way( dont worry i'm omw to join you.. oh damn which one are you in antonica 1,2,3,4,5?). I didnt like the way spell progression was handled in EQ2 either (wtb my next spell.. 25 gold wtf you just made 50 of them). Everything i've listed completely kills the immersion factor. Immersion is why EQ succeeded over the long haul. When you logged into halas then zoned into everfrost and you actually got a chill from the snow. Being able to help those in need was erased from eq2. They sacrificed way too much to try and stop the powerlevelers. They sacrificed way too much to stop the exploiters. Personally if those are the lengths you need to go to in order to stop those kinds of activities i'd rather you allow them. There has to be a level of lawbreaking involved with any game or the game will be too bland. I see all these things people say destroy games or game economies but yet i see absolutely no evidence that it actually hurts the game. I've been playing MMoRPG's for 6 years and alot of stuff used to bother me. The fact that i had 1 pc and the druid next to me had 2 and was pl'ing toon after toon used to bother me. Watching afk druids forage for tradeskill items used to bother me. Watching afk toons skillup tradeskills used to bother me. After 6 years i say so what! If they're willing to take the risk and the game maker is willing to do the policing SO WHAT if a few people get away with some things it adds character to the game. If Vanguard wants my subscription it has to be immersive. It has to free the player. It has to be FUN! It must be hell to grind! I want to kite! I want to group! I want to raid! I want to explore! I want EQ! oh wait um well you know EQ wasnt a bad game until luclin!
Copeland,
Thank you, I've read many of your posts and almost always say "what a dumbass". But this post here has completely changed my mind about you (well almost). I couldn't have said it better myself.
Well said Copeland!
Played EQ1 for 3 years, and i loved hating every minute of it!
Joined 2004 - I can't believe I've been a MMORPG.com member for 20 years! Get off my lawn!
Originally posted by Pasho Gretesh, first of all i have to congratulate your post. Although it is an opposite opinnion, it is written very well addressed, very polite, and with depth. Congratulations..really. Now, on our subject, let me quote what Brad Mcquaid have said in other interviews in reference to items available to people who dont like raid groups: "Well, it's not really our total goal to keep the more casual gamer on par with the gamer who can devote more hours and/or is more talented or connected in-game and therefore achieves success more quickly. Again, this ties into what makes the game feel immersive -- when you see someone with higher end items on, the player thinks to himself, wow, I want to earn one of those one day. So while we do have areas in Vanguard more designed for the casual player, the rewards (and the risks) in those areas will absolutely not be on par with the risk and reward that exists in the group and raid areas of the game" After that he said when asked about the soloable options: "There will be casual, group, and raid areas. The game isn't being designed as a solo game, but at the same time soloing will be possible (although grouping will always, regardless of where you are at, be to your advantage). I was asked recently what soloing would be like, whether it would be more like WoW soloing, or old-school EQ soloing, and while it will be different than both, if I had to choose, it will be more like EQ was -- you could solo, but grouping was always to your advantage." The key word here is: "The game isn't being designed as a solo game"...see my point now? If you put together both paragraphs, you will automatically see that the game will have a small part for solo, that grouping is almost a need, and that you will need to be in raid groups in order to get the "super-uber-sword of doom" as you call it before.... He said: "it will be more like EQ was"......come on...EQ was that huge hit cause there was nothing else to compare it to. There were no more options. Now we have them. I really hope the game doesnt end as EQ2...which really sucks.
Im not claiming that vanguard will be a casual friendly game, is not going to be casual friendly. Casual players will be able to play and achieve things, but logically they cant get the same that those who devote more hours, but as far as i know, most items will be tradeable like in everquest's roleplay server Fiona vie.
I can assure you that vanguard is not going to be like EQ2, mainly becasue a lot of vanguard forum regulars hate EQ2 and the developers are aware of that, so they will avoid to make the same mistakes.
In order to loot the uber sword of doom you will need a raid, but in order to have it and use it, no you will not need it. Even the few items that will be no drop will be tradeable, but in order to use it you will need to defeat the NPC who drops it.
I cant find especific quotes, but most items will be tradeable, so even if you are a casual player, if you have enough money to buy that uber sword of doom you will be able to have it.
In order to solve the problems with item and levels, most items will have soft level caps, you will be able to equip that uber sword of doom in your level 1 character, but he will be unable to use it properly.
Granted, Vanguard is going to be a evolution of everquest, but will not repeat the same mistakes that everquest had, at least not all.
Probably some of the things that you consider mistakes will be in the game, because from sigil developers perspective weren't mistakes.
Comments
It's really too bad that most of the people involved with EQ in the old days, like Aradune, can't seem to fathom that EQ sucked. I mean really I was there, I'm one of the 'veterans' I remember the first year I played my rogue having really no worth beyond my desire to roleplay a rogue.
The fact I stayed in EQ or nearly 5 years had nothing to do with 'liking' over crowded zones, being forced to group, and the massive timesinks. They were because there was nothing else to play. There might be a core of people that like sinking years of time into a game just to get level 70, but I'm not one of them, and if your game has no real 'content' to offer aside from forcing me to get in a group and grind for 8 hours at a time to level then it's not one I'm going to waste money on.
in YOUR opinion EQ sucked, i respect that, but you must realize that is just your opinion, a lot of players dont share your views.
Vanguard is not going to be EQ, it will share some features, but is not going to be another EQ.
I am one of those "vet" players and i personally think that a game that starts classifying players in categories is a game that really sucks.
In summary, all they are saying the game will have are the same things that people were hating at the beginning (well at the end too). Now they are announcing them again as the big thing in MMOs and you all are buying the same BS all over again. Camping mobs, slow progression, forced grouping, uber raids to get an item...etc, etc.
Ohh..dont get me wrong, I will be there too..i dont mind spending a couple of bucks just to see if there is something there that attracts me to stay, i dont think so, but i have to give it a try.
Why? most single player games do that, you can be a fps player, a rts player, a rpg player...
Now we have reached a point where the MMOG genere is mature, now we have a lot of options and a lot of playstyles, one game cant cover every playstyle since some of them are incompatible. So we need to classify players, some players will love casual players while others will prefer "hardcore" games.
Vanguard is not going to have camping, at least not in a large scale. You will be able to play without a group, and you will be able to craft highend items so there is no real need for uber raids in order to get some of the best items. Most items will be droppable, you will be able to buy and sell almost every item so you are not forced to join an uber raid in order to get that "uber sword of doom".
And finally, slow progression is a necesary evil, a fast progression game will last less time because you will find yourself without objetives pretty soon. Slowing your progression is the only way to ensure that you are going to have chalenges during a long time.
Gretesh, first of all i have to congratulate your post. Although it is an opposite opinnion, it is written very well addressed, very polite, and with depth. Congratulations..really.
Now, on our subject, let me quote what Brad Mcquaid have said in other interviews in reference to items available to people who dont like raid groups:
"Well, it's not really our total goal to keep the more casual gamer on par with the gamer who can devote more hours and/or is more talented or connected in-game and therefore achieves success more quickly. Again, this ties into what makes the game feel immersive -- when you see someone with higher end items on, the player thinks to himself, wow, I want to earn one of those one day. So while we do have areas in Vanguard more designed for the casual player, the rewards (and the risks) in those areas will absolutely not be on par with the risk and reward that exists in the group and raid areas of the game"
After that he said when asked about the soloable options:
"There will be casual, group, and raid areas. The game isn't being designed as a solo game, but at the same time soloing will be possible (although grouping will always, regardless of where you are at, be to your advantage). I was asked recently what soloing would be like, whether it would be more like WoW soloing, or old-school EQ soloing, and while it will be different than both, if I had to choose, it will be more like EQ was -- you could solo, but grouping was always to your advantage."
The key word here is: "The game isn't being designed as a solo game"...see my point now?
If you put together both paragraphs, you will automatically see that the game will have a small part for solo, that grouping is almost a need, and that you will need to be in raid groups in order to get the "super-uber-sword of doom" as you call it before....
He said: "it will be more like EQ was"......come on...EQ was that huge hit cause there was nothing else to compare it to. There were no more options. Now we have them.
I really hope the game doesnt end as EQ2...which really sucks.
Copeland,
Thank you, I've read many of your posts and almost always say "what a dumbass". But this post here has completely changed my mind about you (well almost). I couldn't have said it better myself.
Well said Copeland!
Played EQ1 for 3 years, and i loved hating every minute of it!
Joined 2004 - I can't believe I've been a MMORPG.com member for 20 years! Get off my lawn!
Im not claiming that vanguard will be a casual friendly game, is not going to be casual friendly. Casual players will be able to play and achieve things, but logically they cant get the same that those who devote more hours, but as far as i know, most items will be tradeable like in everquest's roleplay server Fiona vie.
I can assure you that vanguard is not going to be like EQ2, mainly becasue a lot of vanguard forum regulars hate EQ2 and the developers are aware of that, so they will avoid to make the same mistakes.
In order to loot the uber sword of doom you will need a raid, but in order to have it and use it, no you will not need it. Even the few items that will be no drop will be tradeable, but in order to use it you will need to defeat the NPC who drops it.
I cant find especific quotes, but most items will be tradeable, so even if you are a casual player, if you have enough money to buy that uber sword of doom you will be able to have it.
In order to solve the problems with item and levels, most items will have soft level caps, you will be able to equip that uber sword of doom in your level 1 character, but he will be unable to use it properly.
Granted, Vanguard is going to be a evolution of everquest, but will not repeat the same mistakes that everquest had, at least not all.
Probably some of the things that you consider mistakes will be in the game, because from sigil developers perspective weren't mistakes.