[Column] Guild Wars 2: Can GW2 Serve As the Template For The Future of MMOs?

SBFord

Bill Murphy's recent article on ArcheAge's major flaw – that it focuses too much on themepark questing when there's so much more to the game – echoes sentiments I had about the game during my time in alpha. The first comment, from DMKano, raises the perfectly valid point that MMO players have grown so accustomed to seeing “!” over NPCs' heads that there's no other way to “steer” players, especially new players through the early – and some would say “all” – parts of the game.

Read more of Jason Winter's Guild Wars 2: Can GW2 Serve as the Template for the Future of MMOs?

orbitxo

yes.

the leveling experience was amazing in GW2.

bostonjon

agree with the article, gw2 provides a great leveling experience and is a breath of fresh air in the increasingly stale MMO space.  just my opinion.

Aeonblades

The level 1-79 experience is great, engaging, and one of the best if not the best leveling experiences in the genre.

 

The level 80 game should never be copied as it has missed it's mark tremendously, the game suffers from lack of directions and purpose at level 80. I think copying the heart/quest system isn't a bad idea, but you have to have an end game to go with that leveling experience otherwise you end up with empty servers and have to merge them to keep population up.

 

GW2 is a good game, and could be a great game if Anet didn't suffer from tunnel vision and the need to be the hipster of MMO's by continuing to do something that doesn't work just to be "different".

Lunarpac

From my perspective, GW2 wasn't as different from the traditional questing model as some would have you believe. You still looked for the abovementioned hearts on the map, went there, fulfilled some sort of objective, and got a reward. Sure, there were certain tweaks compared to the traditional model, but nothing truly groundbreaking. GW2 was never the sandbox-model that it could have been. It was and will remain a themepark disguised as a sandbox. 

GW2 was fun for a while, but a couple of things killed it for me:

- Close to no item progression

- Combat lacked structure (I missed the holy trinity)

- Crafting was uninspired and dull

- No traditional endgame

Whether GW2 could serve as a template for the future, I hope not. I don't think anything should really serve as a template for other games. Imagine all the different kinds of games we could have had if designers wouldn't just copy-paste so much.

Crusades

I think Neverwinter has something to offer here. I think player created job boards with weighted experience gain based on possible level of difficulty has lots of room too. Take Camelot Unchained crafting for instance, if you're a crafter you post on a job board a quest to gather you up resources and can opt for experience instead of payment, the economic balance would need to occur, perhaps posting a job would cost x amount of in game currency. This is only an example, but it puts players on a purpose driven quest that is about more than experience points.

meonthissite

God I hope not! One look at Skyforge and we see all the ways that GW2 was done poorly. There's a joke going around the internet that the only contribution that GW2 has made to the industry is it's well disguised RMTAH system where new players are forced to spend real money for gold so they can actually setup their characters without a lengthy grind and that's only if they don't want top gear, the top gear does require a grind months of it just to get to the stage where they can craft it and then crafting it with the proper resources. Ever since GW2 has come out we've seen this AHcentric system of terrible economic idea repeated in multiple games like NWO for example. It amazes me that there are so many people who actually think it's great smiling laughing while this game bleeds their wallets dry.

 

Then we've seen how terrible they are at balancing PVE. Engineer explosives for example have been nerfed to stupidity in PVE while anyone with a great sword destroys everything like they are weilding a seige machine. And then there's the ongoing problem of Warriors being so powerful that they can solo play 5 man dungeons which has been going on now for 2 years they still haven't fixed that! These warriors have been selling slots in dungeons.

 

bcbully

I hope not. I don't like b2p/$$ to gold conversions systems. I would much rather pay a sub. Beyond that GW2 always felt like 3 different games in the same box, separating Spvp (battle grounds) RvR and PvE  so completely made all three meaningless for me. I don't want to see this copied at all.

 

That being said the RIFT/GW2 dynamic event systems should continue  to be expanded upon. I also like different weapons doing different things. There just need to be waaay more than what was given. 

 

Mothanos

No....no.....hell no

PvP follow the diamond

Boring scripted events

Temp contend

5 skill button mashing

Zerg zerg zerg resurect zerg zerg

Wish they took Eve Online / Archeage as a template and made more of these.

Kaneth

Originally posted by Aeonblades

The level 1-79 experience is great, engaging, and one of the best if not the best leveling experiences in the genre.

 

The level 80 game should never be copied as it has missed it's mark tremendously, the game suffers from lack of directions and purpose at level 80. I think copying the heart/quest system isn't a bad idea, but you have to have an end game to go with that leveling experience otherwise you end up with empty servers and have to merge them to keep population up.

 

GW2 is a good game, and could be a great game if Anet didn't suffer from tunnel vision and the need to be the hipster of MMO's by continuing to do something that doesn't work just to be "different".

Agreed, 100%. Love leveling, love the variety of leveling options. But there isn't much of anything to do once your character is geared. You're basically doing the same thing at 80 that you did from 1-79. While I do enjoy the living story, I only feel the need to play once every two weeks for it.

Originally posted by Lunarpac

From my perspective, GW2 wasn't as different from the traditional questing model as some would have you believe. You still looked for the abovementioned hearts on the map, went there, fulfilled some sort of objective, and got a reward. Sure, there were certain tweaks compared to the traditional model, but nothing truly groundbreaking. GW2 was never the sandbox-model that it could have been. It was and will remain a themepark disguised as a sandbox. 

GW2 was fun for a while, but a couple of things killed it for me:

- Close to no item progression

- Combat lacked structure (I missed the holy trinity)

- Crafting was uninspired and dull

- No traditional endgame

Whether GW2 could serve as a template for the future, I hope not. I don't think anything should really serve as a template for other games. Imagine all the different kinds of games we could have had if designers wouldn't just copy-paste so much.

I like the lack of item progression. They could have added progression in other ways, such as a multiclassing system or the skill capture system from GW1.

There is still a loose trinity, but while they offer roles they aren't the traditional roles. Additionally, unless you're doing top echelon arena competition, there isn't much of a reason to mix and match the roles either. There doesn't need to be the holy trinity, but they could have added reasons for people to play bunkers, support, etc outside from pvp.

I agree with the crafting. Additionally, it's pointless unless you want to make Ascended Armor pieces.

Again, there didn't need to be a "traditional" end game, but there needed to be an endgame that was different than what you did for the first 79 levels. 

 

flizzer

I think GW2 has already influenced other developers. It is a successful game so that is not surprising.  I would love to see the GW2 model in other games. 

Ludwik

Originally posted by Aeonblades

The level 1-79 experience is great, engaging, and one of the best if not the best leveling experiences in the genre.

 The level 80 game should never be copied as it has missed it's mark tremendously, the game suffers from lack of directions and purpose at level 80.

 GW2 is a good game, and could be a great game if Anet didn't suffer from tunnel vision and the need to be the hipster of MMO's by continuing to do something that doesn't work just to be "different".

 

Agree on all points, especially the last one.

 

If there was a different company running Guild Wars 2 other than ArenaNet, there would be no need for new MMOs, in my opinion. The game, in theory, could still be amazing. It could still be the game that hooked me for years upon years. But I have no faith in ArenaNet as they have shown time and time again that they will not fix mistakes that they make. They have pushed some TERRIBLE patches since launch and there has been no admission of mistake or an attempt to fix.

 

I really hope that future games do copy their design. Guild Wars 2 at its core is still the best game I have ever played. 

AreWeLive

I picked this game up not long ago during their 50% off sale, so far it was worth the $25. I am really enjoying the exploring and leveling, I do think they have this part right. but for me I do find myself looking for more. 

 As a template for exploring and leveling i think this game would do well but it of course needs more things added. The pet battle system Wow has comes to mind for this, that would fill the void I need. 

 I am not a big fan of the rest of the game, lack of graphics (so much is blurred out) every quest cut seen is basically  the same with different NPC's.

If your into exploration and getting achievements you need to find and do all the points of interest, vistas and complete all heart quests in the zone.

Guilds, you can join more then one but if your online representing one and not the other you get mail asking you to rep another guild or maybe get kicked. 

 I have not got to the end game just yet and I am not sure how it will go when i get there but lucky for me this game is just a filler for now and I like alts... 

 

 (I also hate being limited to 5 char slots, if you want more you it will cost you like $10 a slot, I will wait for another 50% off sale and get 5 new char slots for $25 with a new account and maybe play on a different server.  Cause you can only live on one server, you can guest to others but there is a lack of freedom if you want to have mains on others)

(Wow, maybe i do not like this game as much as I think I do...)

 

sludgebeard

As so a person who loves MMOs and the original Guild Wars, I found nothing enjoyable about GW2 besides the amazing art and visuals. Other than that I never had one reason to group, finish content, head to the next area, etc

To me the story was also subpar as hell, never one engaging or interfering story.

PioneerStew

I hope not.  

I would like to see dynamic events, but with this exception I do not think that GW2 was that much different to most mmo's out there (even Dynamic events were in Rift).  It certainly was not this great leap forward that many commentators seem to think it was.  

I would actually argue that GW1 was a far more innovative game.  

1. Unfortunately GW2 replaced any sense of a world with an all-encompassing story arc and any sense of exploration or immersion with a lot of trivial crap like jumping puzzles and vistas.  
2. It is also one of the most anti-social games I have ever played largely by virtue of the fact the mechanics they used mean you never even need to acknowledge other people during group content in the zones.  
3. I also hate time limited content, I do not like Dev's dictating when I can play their game.  Fortunately ANet have learnt this.  
4. Plus I simply do not think that the much lauded B2P is a viable monetisation system... in fact I know it isn't because GW2 is not B2P, it relies on a cash shop.  

I would much rather see some games use GW1 as a template, because at least it offered something unique and interesting.  

Vorch

I do hope that more developers take some core concepts from GW2:

1. Seeing other players should be a boon, not something to feel bad about. PvE should not be adversarial .

2. Levels should make a character stronger, however when returning to earlier content the character should be scaled down. The content will still be easier than it was when first attempted, but it should never be a face roll.

3. Realm v Realm should have rewards and consequences for the servers that partake. 

4. There should be *something* new to do every 2-4 weeks. (That content should also be permanent, something they have finally learned and applied to the LS season 2.)

5. *Structured* PvP should not be level or gear gated. Ever. Leave unbalanced PvP to realm v realm and PvP servers.

 

Played GW1 for 4.2k hours and have 3.2k logged in GW2. It's not perfect, has pissed me off at times (ascended gear introduction), and needs more permanent content (LS2 is a step in the right direction). However, the game is definitely a top 5 MMO and my permanent home atm.

 

 

 

 

 

rojoArcueid

from all the traditional mmos that have come out after WoW (including some of the upcoming ones) GW2 has been the only one taking different approaches to existing content. What other mmos did generic, ANET made it feel fresh again and provided options. For example, in a heart quest you dont have to kill 10 rats to finish it, there are more options to progress the bar that dont involve any rats being killed. And they continue to take different approaches and move forward.

No matter how much i want a full expansion of new content, i give them credit for not becoming WoW 2.0

 

Many people who wanted GW2 to be another wow clone are now hurt and see the game as a plague. All i can say is im happy they arent playing, so they dont ruin my experience and dont mess with all the possibilities for improvement the game has.

 

So yes, GW2 can be a source of inspiration for newer mmos. But not necessarily a template. I dont want more copy/paste of existing games. I want existing ideas being improved AND expanded beyond what we have seen before. Plus, new and fresh ideas being introduced as well.

 

Besides GW2, in the traditional mmo scene, the only thing i can see as fresh and welcoming features for mmorpgs are the Naval piracy and sandbox crafting from ArcheAge, and some future ESO features like justice system from Skyrim. Nothing else out there is trying to break the generic mmo mold and that is hurting the genre.

 

EDIT: EQN is too far away that we dont know how well it will work, Landmark is not really an mmo, just a massive crafting table.

 

galphar

Originally posted by Lunarpac

From my perspective, GW2 wasn't as different from the traditional questing model as some would have you believe. You still looked for the abovementioned hearts on the map, went there, fulfilled some sort of objective, and got a reward. Sure, there were certain tweaks compared to the traditional model, but nothing truly groundbreaking. GW2 was never the sandbox-model that it could have been. It was and will remain a themepark disguised as a sandbox. 

GW2 was fun for a while, but a couple of things killed it for me:

- Close to no item progression

- Combat lacked structure (I missed the holy trinity)

- Crafting was uninspired and dull

- No traditional endgame

Whether GW2 could serve as a template for the future, I hope not. I don't think anything should really serve as a template for other games. Imagine all the different kinds of games we could have had if designers wouldn't just copy-paste so much.

I love how you complain that GW2 isn't "traditional" enough in certain areas and then go on to say you don't like designers who "copy-paste so much".

BailoPan15

Originally posted by Mothanos

No....no.....hell no

PvP follow the diamond

Boring scripted events

Temp contend

5 skill button mashing

Zerg zerg zerg resurect zerg zerg

Wish they took Eve Online / Archeage as a template and made more of these.

 

Soooo, are you implying that there is no zerging in EVE/ArcheAge? 

Lunarpac

Originally posted by Kaneth

Originally posted by Lunarpac

From my perspective, GW2 wasn't as different from the traditional questing model as some would have you believe. You still looked for the abovementioned hearts on the map, went there, fulfilled some sort of objective, and got a reward. Sure, there were certain tweaks compared to the traditional model, but nothing truly groundbreaking. GW2 was never the sandbox-model that it could have been. It was and will remain a themepark disguised as a sandbox. 

GW2 was fun for a while, but a couple of things killed it for me:

- Close to no item progression

- Combat lacked structure (I missed the holy trinity)

- Crafting was uninspired and dull

- No traditional endgame

Whether GW2 could serve as a template for the future, I hope not. I don't think anything should really serve as a template for other games. Imagine all the different kinds of games we could have had if designers wouldn't just copy-paste so much.

I like the lack of item progression. They could have added progression in other ways, such as a multiclassing system or the skill capture system from GW1.

There is still a loose trinity, but while they offer roles they aren't the traditional roles. Additionally, unless you're doing top echelon arena competition, there isn't much of a reason to mix and match the roles either. There doesn't need to be the holy trinity, but they could have added reasons for people to play bunkers, support, etc outside from pvp.

I agree with the crafting. Additionally, it's pointless unless you want to make Ascended Armor pieces.

Again, there didn't need to be a "traditional" end game, but there needed to be an endgame that was different than what you did for the first 79 levels. 

 

I really liked the skill capture system from GW1 as well, I haven't seen that in recent MMOs.

Regarding the trinity, I was playing a Guardian - drawing constant aggro from most mobs in the vicinity. Ultimately, I ran out of defensive cooldowns, and died. A lot. That was kinda tiresome in the end. It was a nice idea to circumvent the holy trinity, but the idea was poorly implemented imo. More incentive to pick different roles would be nice, as you say.

PioneerStew

Originally posted by Lunarpac

Originally posted by Kaneth

Originally posted by Lunarpac

From my perspective, GW2 wasn't as different from the traditional questing model as some would have you believe. You still looked for the abovementioned hearts on the map, went there, fulfilled some sort of objective, and got a reward. Sure, there were certain tweaks compared to the traditional model, but nothing truly groundbreaking. GW2 was never the sandbox-model that it could have been. It was and will remain a themepark disguised as a sandbox. 

GW2 was fun for a while, but a couple of things killed it for me:

- Close to no item progression

- Combat lacked structure (I missed the holy trinity)

- Crafting was uninspired and dull

- No traditional endgame

Whether GW2 could serve as a template for the future, I hope not. I don't think anything should really serve as a template for other games. Imagine all the different kinds of games we could have had if designers wouldn't just copy-paste so much.

I like the lack of item progression. They could have added progression in other ways, such as a multiclassing system or the skill capture system from GW1.

There is still a loose trinity, but while they offer roles they aren't the traditional roles. Additionally, unless you're doing top echelon arena competition, there isn't much of a reason to mix and match the roles either. There doesn't need to be the holy trinity, but they could have added reasons for people to play bunkers, support, etc outside from pvp.

I agree with the crafting. Additionally, it's pointless unless you want to make Ascended Armor pieces.

Again, there didn't need to be a "traditional" end game, but there needed to be an endgame that was different than what you did for the first 79 levels. 

 

I really liked the skill capture system from GW1 as well, I haven't seen that in recent MMOs.

Regarding the trinity, I was playing a Guardian - drawing constant aggro from most mobs in the vicinity. Ultimately, I ran out of defensive cooldowns, and died. A lot. That was kinda tiresome in the end. It was a nice idea to circumvent the holy trinity, but the idea was poorly implemented imo. More incentive to pick different roles would be nice, as you say.

This is my issue as well.  For me GW1 was a far more innovative game than GW2 and it was quite unique with many interesting features.

Then GW2 took all of those interesting features, removed them and turned the game into a fairly derivative mmo.  

If developer's are going to use a template, please use GW1's as it will provide something a little different.   

Vorch

Originally posted by Lunarpac

I really liked the skill capture system from GW1 as well, I haven't seen that in recent MMOs.

Regarding the trinity, I was playing a Guardian - drawing constant aggro from most mobs in the vicinity. Ultimately, I ran out of defensive cooldowns, and died. A lot. That was kinda tiresome in the end. It was a nice idea to circumvent the holy trinity, but the idea was poorly implemented imo. More incentive to pick different roles would be nice, as you say.

Just wanted to stop in and say that the guardian has some insane tanking potential. If you (or someone reading this) wants to try a guardian build, give Strife's Anchor Guardian build a shot:

 

http://intothemists.com/guides/121-ahem_anchor_guard_strifes_build

Aeonblades

Originally posted by Vorch

Originally posted by Lunarpac

I really liked the skill capture system from GW1 as well, I haven't seen that in recent MMOs.

Regarding the trinity, I was playing a Guardian - drawing constant aggro from most mobs in the vicinity. Ultimately, I ran out of defensive cooldowns, and died. A lot. That was kinda tiresome in the end. It was a nice idea to circumvent the holy trinity, but the idea was poorly implemented imo. More incentive to pick different roles would be nice, as you say.

Just wanted to stop in and say that the guardian has some insane tanking potential. If you (or someone reading this) wants to try a guardian build, give Strife's Anchor Guardian build a shot:

 

http://intothemists.com/guides/121-ahem_anchor_guard_strifes_build

Curious as I play a Guardian as well, did they bring in a threat mechanic I.E. taunts or is it sill some mumbo jumbo algorithm involving toughness? Being able to actually tank on my Guard with taunts and such would bring me back to play again as I haven't logged in for nearly 3 months at this point.

APThug

Gw2 is an amazing achievement, but could have been way better. As a big fan of gw1 there are just soo many things missing or could have been implemented but were cut.

I think Gw2 could actually benefit from a system similar to Diablo 3s paragon system for dungeons or high lvl elite areas. So players continue to feel like they are getting more powerful post lvl 80.

A sub class system, a little sorta similar to gw1 second profession system would shake things up alot too.

Overall, I think Gw2 is a great game, and the best money valve wise then any other mmo. I cant play other mmos and go back to the whole tank healer dps crap anymore. I just wanna wreck stuff up using skill based combat. Gear grinding sucks and just gets in the way.

APThug

Gw2 is an amazing achievement, but could have been way better. As a big fan of gw1 there are just soo many things missing or could have been implemented but were cut.

I think Gw2 could actually benefit from a system similar to Diablo 3s paragon system for dungeons or high lvl elite areas. So players continue to feel like they are getting more powerful post lvl 80.

A sub class system, a little sorta similar to gw1 second profession system would shake things up alot too.

Overall, I think Gw2 is a great game, and the best money valve wise then any other mmo. I cant play other mmos and go back to the whole tank healer dps crap anymore. I just wanna wreck stuff up using skill based combat. Gear grinding sucks and just gets in the way.

Vorch

Originally posted by PioneerStew

This is my issue as well.  For me GW1 was a far more innovative game than GW2 and it was quite unique with many interesting features.

Then GW2 took all of those interesting features, removed them and turned the game into a fairly derivative mmo.  

If developer's are going to use a template, please use GW1's as it will provide something a little different.   

In GW1, people complained to death about skill capturing...so they added tomes/elite tomes.

Caravan Vanquishing took hours. And Title grinding (which people like to forget added a statistical bonus) took days of play time. And I know people have experienced disconnects at the tail-end of a vanquish and having to start all over...

People have also said that they loved GW1s exploration. I can't think of a single person in my guild, in chat, or basically in the game who loved getting Legendary Cartographer. It essentially *required* the use of a third party program to complete.

And with 1300 skills (roughly 85-140 per profession) and dual classing, people like to say there was huge build variety. However, I played GW1 for 6 years (PvE, RA, AB, and JQ)...this build variety is greatly overstated. Did anyone ever bring Orison of Healing, the benchmark monk skill, on their bar? Never...they'd be kicked instantly.  If you're playing poker and get to choose the cards in your hand, you're not going to show 2s, 3s, and 4s. I personally vanquished the entire game with a cookie cutter Sabway + Mesmerway Team Build (didn't even need to talk to people, lol).

By the end of my time playing GW1, my warrior had the same build as my necromancer, mesmer, and dervish. This wasn't out of the ordinary...it was the norm for farming and vanquishing. Could it be done differently? Yea, but again, why choose a pair of 3s when you can choose the Royal Flush every time?

I loved GW1. I played for thousands of hours and don't regret a moment. But I always chuckle when build diversity, skill capturing, map completion, and vanquishing are listed as things in the plus column. Perhaps the REWARD for completing these tasks was worth it (I love my God Walking Amongst Mere Mortals title), but the tasks were very tedious. The most fun I had in GW1 was in my guild hall (which GW2 still lacks for some reason), farming during holidays, and just chatting.

 

GW1 is a great game. I guess I'm just always surprised at what people now think was good about it today.

 

/rant