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People forgot how to play
Recently I have seen a lot of negative comments about Wildstar. Something like "the game is too hard", "attunement takes too long" or "the game is dead".
Now I know MMORPG is not the right forum to write it in because lets face it, the only community that is more toxic is the LoL community, but still I find it relevant to post here.
People in here like to think they played old-school MMORPGs, back in the days when it was hard and took time. Well, Wildstar is hard and it takes time, but now its bad because of it? When people suggest shit as Raid Finder and easier attunements, thats where I dont get it... Raid Finder is NOT an easier way to get gear or progress! Raid Finder is an EXCUSE for not being willing to find a guild.
And thats the main issue. People complain because they dont want to find a guild. They just want to queue and get items by themselves. And its the same people that complain about too much single player content. Double standards at its best.
Now some might say, "The guilds demand too much time from me", but you also know that Raid Finding will take twice as long to progress 20% of what a guild could. People have forgot what it means to have hard group content and now they are whining because they dont remember how to play an actual quality MMORPG. It doesnt hurt me that people cant figure it out, it hurts me that you have to talk shit about the best game out there because YOU dont remember how to play a group-focused hard game.
On the note, I have played almost every game to the late game (WoW, Rift, TSW, Vanguard, STO, Vindictus etc. etc. etc.) and this game is more polished, more difficult, more enjoyable and has a lot more players than the average MMORPG and is definately NOT dead.
Comments
It's entirely possible that people don't like guilds because of drama. I think it's a great game myself, but i play it differently than most and utilize other parts of the game than group oriented content. I've noticed in the last few years that people either want to log in, queue, get their gear, and move to other activities, or play in tight knit groups of people for a different experience. There are a ton of people in the middle of that though and they get lost. Some people don't like guild drama, some people don't like relying on other people to succeed, and some people simply like to be left alone.
Also, there are more than old school guys on this site. This site has the rep for old, sandbox experience, but make no mistake, the loud voices you hear talking about Wildstar being difficult are most likely those who do not fit that definition.
The game is difficult, and that's a good thing, but while you make accusations to this community, i believe they are misplaced. Those insults should be hurled at the overall MMO community at large, simply because times have changed, and so have the wants of the playerbase. Wildstar would have been a hit in '06. In 2014, it's average in the eyes of the mob.
Unfortunately the game is plagued by this and only if you can stomach the questing to level up enough for more new content like dungeons, adventures, and better pvp options then you might start enjoying yourself.
I still don't know how to feel about Wildstar...it feels like a unicorn woke up in my living room after a hard night of clubbing and partly vomit/shit a rainbow that became a video game.
Originally posted by Arskaaa
"when players learned tacticks in dungeon/raids, its bread".
I think its more people -THINK- they wanted old school content, without realizing that they, themselves, have changed as much as the MMO scene. Nowadays, you have plenty of high quality, polished games which have been pushing the genre forward. WoW 10 years ago would not fly today. Not because it was "too hard", but so much has just been evolved upon, and polished, that trying to go back to how things used to be shows them just how much the industry -has- moved forward.
Its nostalgia, plain and simple. Back then, it was fresh, and new. It was the best of times in everyones minds, back when they were just getting into the scene, because the scene didn't exist prior to that (In popularity, anyhow. There were pre-EQ/WoW games, but none really took off to any real degree that a good number of people actually played.). It was an amusement park of wonders, where everything was fresh, new, and exciting! However, going back, you now notice the age, and reality of things...the paint isn't as vivid, the mascots walking around are no longer your favorite characters, but other men and women, just like you, in a suit. That awe inspiring ride with those computer generated mascots are now dated, and fuzzy. Yet you remember in your mind, back when it was the best thing ever.
Some still will enjoy it. But time has inexorably marched on. People see time-sinks now as not "hardcore", but "Time-sinks". And time sinks they were back in the day as well, but there were no games -without- the timesinks, to show how much better it could be. 40 man raids were awe inspiring, having massive groups of people going about in filled voice channels! However, looking back, it was some of the most simplistic content out there, equivalent with modern day dungeons in mechanics, and most of your 40 man group, and indeed even your skills/rotation to a large part, was utterly superfluous.
Wildstar is hard, not by old standards, but by modern ones. Its also padded in that difficulty, with sheer HP/Damage amounts, where one or two mistakes can, and will, kill you. So many games now have not an attunement gate, but simply a gear one, and not always even based around drops from hard mode dungeons, but even from getting various forms of currency, in case RNG is not with you. It has time gates, when most other games have removed them, which makes them all the more visible, because you've seen a world -without- such constraints, simply for the sake of being that, a constraint. The genre has evolved, but just as much, people have evolved.
If Wildstar was difficult, while being as modern as most other games, it would probably go over much more swimmingly. As it stands, Wildstar is capitilizing on nostalgia in some big areas, and making things time gated/old school simply for the sake of it, and its making people realize that the old way of doing things might not be for them. Nostalgia is a powerful thing, and when something doesn't live up to that nostalgia, even if its because of them themselves changing, its hit all the harder.
*Blah, double post*
The OP is what is wrong with Wildstar. It has this one size fits all mentality of "join a guild duh!". Did you stop to think that maybe many of us are already in guilds that fit the size and style we prefer?
For instance. I am part of a large multi-game guild. We just recently branched out into Wildstar because it fits the overall theme of the guild (giant mechs and sci fi stuff) and the games we play. We have a small footprint in Wildstar because joining our guild requires an application and a week long interview process. We do this so that we retain players so we don't have to deal with poaching and drama. It really fosters a community and many of us have played together for years across multiple games. We do community events outside of Wildstar and we even host D&D nights and Cards Against Humanity nights via TS.
Because of this, we probably won't be able to raid in Wildstar because it would take a long time to get new members and, when one inevitably is poached, as many new recruits have already been, we have to go through the entire process in order to backfill that spot.
I was told by many in the community that I should leave me guild and join a bigger raiding guild. Yeah: that's not going to happen. I don't like large guilds where you are just another face in the crowd. A guild that will bench members week after week and then deal with guild drama and constant poaching. I prefer to play with a guild of people I know/real life friends.
Rather than change the way I play the game, I expect Wildstar to accommodate myself and my gaming habits. They should have systems built into the game that makes it easier for smaller guilds to band together or be used in conjunction with larger guilds. Hell, if guilds were going to be so important, they should at least have something similar to WoW's looking for guild. Instead, they consolidated it all into one section of their forums and in game chat. They then make Pugging pointless so you will have less of a chance to meet people and join their guild that way.
If Carbine is unwilling to accommodate us, I am more than willing to take my money elsewhere and with it my guild. I have already quit Wildstar as has most of my guild. The few holdouts won't last long before they are gone too (as is evident by their posts on our guild forums venting constant frustration).
Join a guild.....psh.....GREAT RESPONSE!!!
Your last statement was all you had to say. The rest was a waste of time because you have an issue with joining another guild.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
If the only way to play the game properly is by guild jumping until you are in a guild that can raid then the game can hardly foster a proper sense of community where guilds are important ways for players to band together since they are only useful insofar as they can get you into the raiding content.
There will never be enough raiding guilds for everyone. Period. Either that is OK, or the paradigm needs to shift so that being in a raiding guild is no longer the sole recourse of those who want to raid.
Yes, I have a problem with Carbine telling me the only way I can raid is to betray the guild I've been with for years. No thanks. I'll just stand by and watch Wildstar go F2P or fail miserably.
sorry but this is your very own opinion only, not a fact.
I'm gonna be honest, you made my day. Thanks for the laugh lol
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
You can't say they've forgot how to play if this is the only way they've ever played. Most games have conditioned them to play this way all whilst suggesting that it's a community driven experience. To them, community is a LFG, LFR, or BG queue. Most guilds aren't really guilds anymore... just a guild name with bank slots. Again, the game conditioned them to play this way... lack of bag space? Make a guild! Need a place to get stuff for for free instead of an AH? Make a guild!
Raiding wasn't about doing something that others couldn't do... climb Mount Everest... win the Super Bowl. Many will try, most will fail. That is what people liked about raiding... it had a purpose for those who wanted it bad enough. Today's raids is about all-inclusive. Everyone climbs Mount Everest and everyone wins the Super Bowl. If everyone can do it, it's not worth doing. That's what old school raiding was about... doing something you knew not everyone would be able to do.
It's not like they marketed this game for anyone but the old schoolers... and yet the bored masses from WoW et al came anyways and now complain that it's not like their game. Well you left your game for something better to do... here it is, do it or don't do it... that's the only challenge you have to complete.
OP, you make a lot of good points in your post. The issue is that none of them matter because the MMO community has no idea what they want, sad but true. Let's look at a few examples...
We want more story, with no quest hubs, no grinds, in a sandbox format, with no gating, no gear grind, with soloable content, where players set the economy, no need for co-op play, no guilds necessary, no tab targeting, action based combat, balanced PvP, no themeparks, regular content releases, F2P model, etc.
So what we really want is a Christmas list of things that don't really go together. Regular content releases with a F2P model? Sandbox with deep immersive story? Player set economy where you don't need to interact with others? No quest hubs but no mob grinds? I could keep going on and on but I think you know where I am going with this.
I love Wildstar but I do think there are a couple areas where they gimped their game out of the gate. The cartoony wrapper, this one almost kept me from playing the game, luckily for me I gave it a try anyway. The over the top delivery, this can be a bit much at times and does detract from some level of immersion. The fact that you need to play about 24 hours before you get into your first dungeon, which is where the game really shines. Lastly, performance tuning, I have a pretty decent system and I get around 30 fps in most areas and drops down into the low 20's at times. The graphics are not that detailed and with the cartoony wrapper it should allow for this game to perform much better than it does, they need to address this for sure.
My overall opinion of WS has been the same since I started playing it 2 months ago... It's the best of what's available to us today and is a more complete MMO than anything else available.
I think that it's less about ability and more about a shift in expectations.
You're making the assumption that everyone used to be able to complete raid content with ease. The fact is that people doing max-difficulty raiding are the minority. check out wowprogress.com/stats (WoW stats of course, but I would assume they translate)
So, first, Wildstar is catering to a niche. Assuming these numbers are accurate at all, we're looking at less than 5% of the entire community that's doing this content. I'm assuming Mythic difficulty in WoW will be more difficult, meaning a drastic decline in the people doing that level of difficulty, so if Wildstar is somewhere inbetween or above that, it's niche content.
As far as raid finder is concerned, neglecting modern conveniences won't win you any fans. Just look at ESO and the backlash they got for no global auction house. Fact is, the Internet today versus the Internet ten years ago is drastically different and, honestly, people are more connected than ever. So they aren't necessarily looking for new friends online. Sometimes they just want a pickup game.
Also, easier, Raid Finder-type content is great for people wanted an introduction to raiding. It's necessary for progression. IDK about your guild, but most expect a certain level of skill that cannot be obtained any other way than just doing the content and learning, but you won't be taken unless you are already at that level, so it's kind of a catch 22. So easier content doesn't have to be a bad thing, as long as it's intention is to prepare you for the next level of progression after that (Which WoW Raid Finder doesn't really do).
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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They dint forget........they never played hardcore games.
UO / EQ / Eve Online / Vanila WoW was the batch of mmo's that were hard.
Most mmo players get everything handed to them with spoons and throw around tantrums of they get ganked / need to put some tought into a game before rushing in and AoE stuff down with eyes closed.
At some point, people are going to have to accept that WoW didn't change people's expectations or alter how people play MMO's; instead, WoW was the first game that actually changed itself to match what the player's wanted as time passed. Blizzard was always smart about player data and observing trends, they just adapted WoW to what people were doing, not implementing something and telling people to like it.
Not to mention, a lot of "features" like quest finder, gear score, etc were player made mods first that Blizzard found were being used by a huge portion of the playerbase.
Blizzard didn't adapt to what their player base wanted, they adapted to what they believed their non player base wanted. While it was a brilliant business model, it was kind of a slap in the face to their long term player base. People like myself that played in vanilla and TBC stayed playing because we had a huge time investment in our characters not necessarily because we liked the direction the game was heading.
Another thing that really helped blizzard stay top dog was the rest of the industry's lack of delivering anything worth while. I personally tried to leave WoW many of times for many other titles only to return because none of them did it for me.
Raid Finder is a great thing that was poorly implemented.
The issue with LFR is that it was tied into gear progression. The progression as it goes right now is Veteran Dungeons > LFR > Normal raids. LFR gives gear that will help you get into Normal Raids and that gives raiders incentive to use it. It also gives them a place where they can be frustrated because not everyone in LFR is like them and taking it super seriously. That is why you get all of the elitists complaining about how LFR ruins everything because people can AFK through it and be bad. If they took out the ability to get gear then there would be no incentive for raiders to use it and the only people who would be using it would be those who want to see the content on a schedule that isn't akin to raiding.
So, basically, Veteran Dungeons should and rep grinding should be used to gear up for Normal Raids and LFR should either a) drop transmog gear or b) have a special tier of gear that can not be used to get into normal raids. This can be achieved either by making it the same iLVL as Vet Dungeons or by making the ilvl gear check for normal Raids disqualify LFR gear. That way LFR gear can only be used to get into the next LFR and people who are raiders can skip it completely since it won't help them with normal raids.
I have no idea who you think the "long term player base" was/is for WoW. If you think it was hardcore raiders, it never was, currently isn't, and never will be anyone's long term dedicated player base. They are always the smallest percentage of players, usually not even double digits. Any company that focuses on them doesn't have a player base, what they have is looming bankruptcy.
But that's just it, WoW flourished with a healthy population of players who didn't even raid back then. They didn't throw a temper tantrum because some guild got to kill the bosses in AQ 40 and they didn't. They actually had a community back then. Players who logged in, to get this, meet other players online and to chat. You know... interact with other people above all else. They admired those that cleared the high end raids. You actually knew who certain players were just by their accomplishments in game. Getting a high rank in PVP required a great deal of perseverance and you knew those people by name. Not everyone could do it. Didn't kill the game. Not one bit. It flourished. Today's games is the exact opposite of vanilla WoW. Sure, you can log on an play instantly, but you don't know, or care to know, anyone else in game. They are merely bots to fill out your queue. It's a single player game brought on by single player mentality. Has zero to do with how much free time one has, because last time I checked, those 30 somethings playing WoW back in vanilla had jobs and kids and a mortgage to pay just like today. Once you took the NEED to group out of the game, you killed the NEED for community. 40 man raids are completely doable in a game with a strong community... completely undoable in one with a weak one. And games today foster no community gaming like it's an art form. As such, raiding of old is gone... because the community is gone. Without the community, there are no players, and without players, there is no game. Any game that has a queuing tool is a game without community. You have no in-game friends, you have a queue. Because you have no in-game friends, you will never do a 40 man raid.
I never said anything about hardcore raiders, I said it's long term player base. This was in some part made up of raiders, PvPers, etc. I played WoW from vanilla up until SoO in MoP with a few breaks in between, so I am not bad mouthing a game that brought me years of enjoyment.
Rose tinted glasses man. You are NOT speaking for the majority here. If there wasn't a need for change then change would not have been made.
I was one of those vanilla non raider players and believe me you, mylself nor anyone in my guild knew or cared who the raiders were and the community felt no different than it does today. I am still in a guild, we still chill and chat on TS or Vent. I do equal parts grouping with my guild as I do with random people.
However, I did always feel like a lot of the raiding was gated for me. I was a college student playing house with a fiancee at the time. I also had a very active social life. So, I would quit the game often for months at a time because I would run out of things to do.
When LFR came about, I was playing SWToR and getting frustrated for the same reasons. I saw an AD to check out this new LFR thing along with 7 free days for people with inactive accounts. Haven't really looked back since. I can still do 10 man normal raids on a casual basis with my guild and in between I enjoy LFR facerolling content I couldn't do otherwise.
I keep seeing this circumstantial arguments about community and all I can think is "weak sauce". 2004 was a different time and MMO games were in a different place then. Get over it and get with the times.
If Wildstar does not embrace 2014, it will fail.
Well said!
What made WoW so awesome in vanilla and TBC wasn't the game, it was the community. You got to know people in game, people in guilds would hang out in vent if they were online even if no raids were going on. Even the trade chat trolls made the game interesting. BG's were all from the same server so you got to know the people that were in there everytime you entered one no matter what time of day. You would avoid certain opposing faction players in PvP because you knew who they were and you knew they would pwn your face.
These are the things that I miss most about early WoW!
Facerolling LFR is fun? You are not seeing content, you are not experiencing the game, you are perusing through what a raid may be like.
Why is a challenge bad? I don't play games to "see" content, never had and never will, I play games to experience content. People act as if it's a bad thing to make a game that is challenging, I just don't get it. People say things like "it's not hard, it's a time sink", so that being the case anyone can do it, it just may take a little longer, why is that bad?
I played EQ1 while I was in college, I had a live in girlfriend, a full class schedule, etc. It took me over a year to reach max level and I was completely fine with that, I had some friends that did it in a few months. That never bothered me, what bothers me are people that say, "I can't play the game too much so make the game shorter!", which is essentially what they have done in WoW. By doing that what happens is the population is much less stable, it's like a revolving door. WoW may have 7.8 million subs but how many of those subs are unique subs and an even better question would be how many are active subs? In TBC you had guilds still working on SSC/TK and MH/BT when 3.0 dropped. How many guilds are working on ToT at this point in the x-pack? Why would they be when they can hit up LFR SoO the day after they hit 90?
PvE has never been hard and will never be hard. At the end of the day, you're just hitting keys on a keyboard to best a set computer AI that never changes. All it takes is time to learn the mechanics. Some do learn quicker than others but given an infinite amount of time every player could beat the dungeons in Wildstar.
The only reason you would ever play a game like Wildstar is if you were in a race to see who could beat it the quickest. Tommy took 20 hours to clear the dungeons, Mike took 50 hours to clear the dungeons and I took 100 hours to clear the dungeons. Tommy wins, glad we just wasted all that time determining who has a better memory and aptitude for learning.
It's a big giant waste of time that proves absolutely nothing.