Originally posted by Greymantle4 I feel your pain. I have not found a home since 2005 when the NGE hit and I left SWG for good.
Why can't you all move on? I moved on to GW2 and Rift and Champions of Regnum.
that was a big jump from what I originally played.
Please explain to us, for the non SWG players, what exactly you all want in a MMO, that wouldn't also be a dent in a developer's pocket to make!
i am listening ...
I did move on to LOTRO, Wow, Rift, Warhammer, AOC, FF14, Secret World, SWTOR, GW2, do I need to continue? The longest I played any of those was 3 to 4 months with most 1 to 2 months.
I didn't play all of those but it's exactly what I've done since NGE.. I've tried finding new games, with people I played SWG with for years, it just never works out for us, they don't allow us to play how we did. As I said earlier there is nothing that offers as much as SWG did anywhere in gaming today. Not just MMO's. Hence why most of them are still playing it, which I do as well from time to time. I just don't find it to be as satisfying without certain features.
But again, tell us that don't know what you all are talking about, what exactly it is fromSWG that you all want in a modern MMO, and how did that feature work.
I believe a lot of you would have more of the games you want, with the things you want in them, if only you all actually took the time to talk about and discuss, and explain what it is that you envision as great concepts from the past. Because I am sure, more MMO developers may also never played those games, and have no clue what you all are talking about, and why such a feature was popular at all. It may be a great idea to some developer somewhere, yet they simply don't know it exist. So why not discuss and detail what it is that you all want from these older MMOs.
Because usually when I try to start a discussion asking you all about this, I get called a troll or stupid, or get the same old "I WANT FFA FULL LOOT MMO WITH NO CAREBEARS" yet you all get many of these same type games yet never support them, so what does that tell developers mentally about the stuff you all like. But maybe that's not the same vocal community as the rest of you vet MMO gamers,
so that's exactly why I say its best to discuss it, instead of continuing to make more of the same old "ALL MODERN DAY MMOS SUCK" threads, that have no real value to progress of the genre.
I see a lot of peeps posting 'Nostalgia' about games gone by and how them games back then aren't really that great as we all remember them to be, well I'm still playing SWGEmu and Shadowbane on a moderate level and both these games are still better than some of the mmo's we got currently (but hey, too each their own).
They may not be mainstream anymore, but still having fun in my own little world with them.
If SWG released today it would get torn to shreds. No content, no voice acting, 99% of crafted gear is useless, rubber banding, broken classes, shooting through walls, half of the features do not work, servers shut down for maintenance every night, everybody is afk/macroing, jedi class negates 75% of every crafting class' usefulness, the list goes on.
But it sure was fun. For my first real mmo, it was hard to beat. Mostly because I expected the genre to go this way. I loved the idea of SWG. Most of my game time was spent working through the stuff that was broken, just because I could do it. There was so little content, that making useless items with maxed stats that nobody wanted becamse its own content. And people geeked out on a combat staff with maxed speed and min damage not because it was actually any good, but because it was something to do in the game.
SWG had so much potential that we stuck around hoping it would get better and eventually gave up and just made the best of a half finished game. What a way to break into the genre haha. Good times.
Originally posted by Greymantle4 I feel your pain. I have not found a home since 2005 when the NGE hit and I left SWG for good.
Why can't you all move on? I moved on to GW2 and Rift and Champions of Regnum.
that was a big jump from what I originally played.
Please explain to us, for the non SWG players, what exactly you all want in a MMO, that wouldn't also be a dent in a developer's pocket to make!
i am listening ...
I did move on to LOTRO, Wow, Rift, Warhammer, AOC, FF14, Secret World, SWTOR, GW2, do I need to continue? The longest I played any of those was 3 to 4 months with most 1 to 2 months.
I didn't play all of those but it's exactly what I've done since NGE.. I've tried finding new games, with people I played SWG with for years, it just never works out for us, they don't allow us to play how we did. As I said earlier there is nothing that offers as much as SWG did anywhere in gaming today. Not just MMO's. Hence why most of them are still playing it, which I do as well from time to time. I just don't find it to be as satisfying without certain features.
But again, tell us that don't know what you all are talking about, what exactly it is fromSWG that you all want in a modern MMO, and how did that feature work.
I believe a lot of you would have more of the games you want, with the things you want in them, if only you all actually took the time to talk about and discuss, and explain what it is that you envision as great concepts from the past. Because I am sure, more MMO developers may also never played those games, and have no clue what you all are talking about, and why such a feature was popular at all. It may be a great idea to some developer somewhere, yet they simply don't know it exist. So why not discuss and detail what it is that you all want from these older MMOs.
Because usually when I try to start a discussion asking you all about this, I get called a troll or stupid, or get the same old "I WANT FFA FULL LOOT MMO WITH NO CAREBEARS" yet you all get many of these same type games yet never support them, so what does that tell developers mentally about the stuff you all like. But maybe that's not the same vocal community as the rest of you vet MMO gamers,
so that's exactly why I say its best to discuss it, instead of continuing to make more of the same old "ALL MODERN DAY MMOS SUCK" threads, that have no real value to progress of the genre.
If you took the time to read the things people are saying, then you'd have your answer, but i suspect that the answers your hearing, are not the ones you want to hear, because they don't fall into the FFA FULL LOOT MMO WITH NO CAREBEARS that you seem to want to turn it into. If you are really interested then look again. The trouble is, it is not a single feature that made SWG what it was, but the synergy of the ones it did, and that is also why no current game has them, not even Archeage, as SOE discovered, its a synergy that is easily broken. Trouble is, even if you could take a few of SWG's features and implement them into a game, you would have the same problem. But no developer since has really tried to do what was done with SWG, which is a shame, it might be a niche market, but too many developers seem to be trying to achieve WoW status, and they always fail.
If ANY of the games released in the last few years were released in 2003 they would have taken giant shits all over WoW and any other mmo in 2003....
I've come to realize that its not the games at all, its the community.
I'm still undecided as to whether I'm faced with a ton of younger generation players who are more attuned to instant gratification and therefore have no frame of reference to the history of these games at all
OR
The older players have soured themselves by assuming that every game made after the EQ2/WoW era would include EVERY feature of EVERY previous mmo in history, both flaw-less and bug-less as well as stuffed to the brim with expansions on release...
I remember when I was 12 I thought that I would have a hover car by the time I was 30, expectations exceed reality.
In conclusion, I have realized that both of those realities suck... and both of them are true. : (
It's pretty sad that certain MMO gamers go into a game expecting another game and end up saying idiocies like: GW2 is exactly like The Secret World which is exactly like WoW... that's like saying Red Alert 2 is the same as Starcraft 2...or Call of Duty is the same as S.T.A.L.K.E.R...... if you keep going to game after game after game and you find them the same as each other... you are either playing only EA's sports lineup or the issue isn't the games it is you.
Also played SWG and Shadowbane in a non-mainstream capacity... I rank their ease of access for noob players lower than EVE-Online circa 2004 (do I need to get that graph out?), their aesthetics seemed ok even if the graphics were date but they just felt clunky, unintuitive messes compared to other more modern games. Do modern games offer the sheer scope? Of course not because modern games have the be flashy and sexy (look at all the people tearing AA a new one because "lol dated chinesy graphics!!! so lame!!!!!" ) and also cast a wide enough net to get people and weigh it down well enough with depth to keep people around whereas UO, SWG, Shadowbane, etc, knew they were the only kids on the block that did what they did at the time they launched so they knew they'd get a chunk of the market regardless how small it was. I mean Christ this is like saying Sim City does not hold a candle to Dwarf Fortress (I love the latter btw) when the latter is obviously a labor of love and a low investment risk due to low yields required.
Live in the present people and know where to look because complaining that WoW isn't SWG or that Black Oil isn't SWG or whatever other themepark isn't SWG is pointless, counterproductive and a waste of everyone's time. Go in expecting a new experience not an old one raised from the dead.
You either felt the magic of SWG, or you did not. That's really all it boils down to. Those who disagree with SWG being a great game will always cite it's technical shortcomings. I have yet to read a post by any one of us who speak highly of SWG who disputes that SWG was flawed and buggy. But many of us were able to overlook those flaws and bugs because we captured the spirit of the game and enjoyed it from that perspective. It is obvious from some of the posts that always spring up in these SWG threads that some did not, and that is ok. I don't care how good a game is, there will never be a game that appeals to 100% of the gaming population. Every game will have its detractors. As sure as death and taxes, this is another certainty you can count on.
Why is it that swarms of anti-SWG folk always feel the need to flock into these SWG threads and tell those of us who enjoyed SWG that our experiences were wrong and how we are all viewing SWG through "rose tinted glasses" and its "only nostalgia." To them, it is not conceivable that we could have actually enjoyed SWG. In other words, please tell us how we felt when we played SWG because only you, in your infinite wisdom, can recite our experiences better than we can.
The fact of the matter is that it is all subjective. Just because our experiences of SWG differed from yours does not mean ours were not real. We just received a different experience from the game than you did. And it must have been real because there are a lot of us. Perhaps those of us who enjoyed SWG need to extend a bit more compassion toward the anti-SWG crowd. It could very well be that their reaction is one derived out of bitterness. Bitterness that they did not capture the magic. That magic captured by the majority of us who think back fondly of SWG.
Well, let's see. OP was stating his precious SWG was much better than all the MMOs out there so why can't the others voice their opinions why it wasn't for them. You even acknowledge that it's all subjective so yea. Opinions are like assholes everybody has one and it stinks.
Reading these forums I am not sure we will ever find a game that will give us that special feeling we had in our favourite game back in the days. My game was Dark Age Of Camelot.
That game gave me the best gaming experience I have ever had. It was not my first but it was the first that got me hooked. When I look back at DAOC I remember it as the best game ever and I think it is because it gave me that special feeling that you won't be able to get again. No matter how good the new games are.
And I think this is because you will only remember the best parts of that special game of yours. When I think behind all that nostalgia I remember what I hated about DAOC. I hated that the made all the new classes so ridicolous overpowered that it made PVP unplayable. Maybe to sell more expansions? I hate that they added Trials Of Atlantis (Expansion) that made a lot of items ridicolous and the PVP unbalanced. I hated the new frontiers they added. Things that made me quit the game.
Still I remember it as the best game ever because it was the first game that really got me hooked. It was the first game I got hooked on PVP. First game I tried crafting. First game you got yourself a name on a server and so on. So when a new game arrives I often have fun early on but then that goes down and in the end I leave. I am pretty sure that many games have been just as good as DAOC, when I do myself the favour and remember DAOC as it really was, instead of gloryfying it in my head.
So we are looking for that special fix again but we won't get it. We compare all new games with that old game of ours that we loved. And since we just remember how it made us feel not how it really was then new games can't compete no matter if they have the same features or not. We will always find something that is wrong. Just like we did back in the days with our favourite game but we choose not to remember that.
I was interested in SWG at the time it released, but didn't play it. Because I had two friends who were working on the dev team, and the told me privately that the game was being released a year too soon, and was horribly buggy and broken.
You can still love it, but it doesn't mean it was not poorly done in many ways. I know; I still have Master of Orion 3 on my hard drive, though I will never tell anyone it was a good game.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
It's pretty sad that certain MMO gamers go into a game expecting another game and end up saying idiocies like: GW2 is exactly like The Secret World which is exactly like WoW... that's like saying Red Alert 2 is the same as Starcraft 2...or Call of Duty is the same as S.T.A.L.K.E.R...... if you keep going to game after game after game and you find them the same as each other... you are either playing only EA's sports lineup or the issue isn't the games it is you.
Also played SWG and Shadowbane in a non-mainstream capacity... I rank their ease of access for noob players lower than EVE-Online circa 2004 (do I need to get that graph out?), their aesthetics seemed ok even if the graphics were date but they just felt clunky, unintuitive messes compared to other more modern games. Do modern games offer the sheer scope? Of course not because modern games have the be flashy and sexy (look at all the people tearing AA a new one because "lol dated chinesy graphics!!! so lame!!!!!" ) and also cast a wide enough net to get people and weigh it down well enough with depth to keep people around whereas UO, SWG, Shadowbane, etc, knew they were the only kids on the block that did what they did at the time they launched so they knew they'd get a chunk of the market regardless how small it was. I mean Christ this is like saying Sim City does not hold a candle to Dwarf Fortress (I love the latter btw) when the latter is obviously a labor of love and a low investment risk due to low yields required.
Live in the present people and know where to look because complaining that WoW isn't SWG or that Black Oil isn't SWG or whatever other themepark isn't SWG is pointless, counterproductive and a waste of everyone's time. Go in expecting a new experience not an old one raised from the dead.
AN easy suggestion is read other threads, I moved on in 2005, most others did as well, I don't hate modern games, I just don't get as much longevity from them., who goes in and expects them to be like SWG? Who said that?
Some of us would like to play such a game again, handled better, with up to date game-play. It really wouldn't need VO IMO, it doesn't have to be Stars Wars.
This thread is about these things, you're wasting others time by trying to drown out others thoughts with this kind of trite response. No one who'd like to see such a game or the genre itself moving in that direction, cares if you would like to see it or not, or anyone else who wouldn't.. start your own thread(s) about the games you like or what have you.
People never cease to amaze me around here, it's like someone kicked their dog when they hear someone would rather see this or that, over what's available now. It's a forum, there's no rule that says only talk about modern games or their designs.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Well, let's see. OP was stating his precious SWG was much better than all the MMOs out there so why can't the others voice their opinions why it wasn't for them. You even acknowledge that it's all subjective so yea. Opinions are like assholes everybody has one and it stinks.
This is still an open forum is it not?
Because most are doing so as a defense mechanism, rather than doing it to discuss the topic, that much is obvious with their rhetoric. So what if the op doesn't find new games as good? No one is coming up with reasons why modern games are better or offer more, they're just lashing out telling people to move on. Or pointing out the issues SWG had, as if every game doesn't have issues. Not to mention issues aren't what this topic is about , the topic is about the many features SWG had that modern games simply don't or the abundance of features. Which is a fairly good topic to discuss, especially at this juncture in the genre.
Yes it's an open forum, which makes the OP's point perfectly valid, too bad no one actually wants to focus on it.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
It's pretty sad that certain MMO gamers go into a game expecting another game and end up saying idiocies like: GW2 is exactly like The Secret World which is exactly like WoW... that's like saying Red Alert 2 is the same as Starcraft 2...or Call of Duty is the same as S.T.A.L.K.E.R...... if you keep going to game after game after game and you find them the same as each other... you are either playing only EA's sports lineup or the issue isn't the games it is you.
Also played SWG and Shadowbane in a non-mainstream capacity... I rank their ease of access for noob players lower than EVE-Online circa 2004 (do I need to get that graph out?), their aesthetics seemed ok even if the graphics were date but they just felt clunky, unintuitive messes compared to other more modern games. Do modern games offer the sheer scope? Of course not because modern games have the be flashy and sexy (look at all the people tearing AA a new one because "lol dated chinesy graphics!!! so lame!!!!!" ) and also cast a wide enough net to get people and weigh it down well enough with depth to keep people around whereas UO, SWG, Shadowbane, etc, knew they were the only kids on the block that did what they did at the time they launched so they knew they'd get a chunk of the market regardless how small it was. I mean Christ this is like saying Sim City does not hold a candle to Dwarf Fortress (I love the latter btw) when the latter is obviously a labor of love and a low investment risk due to low yields required.
Live in the present people and know where to look because complaining that WoW isn't SWG or that Black Oil isn't SWG or whatever other themepark isn't SWG is pointless, counterproductive and a waste of everyone's time. Go in expecting a new experience not an old one raised from the dead.
AN easy suggestion is read other threads, I moved on in 2005, most others did as well, I don't hate modern games, I just don't get as much longevity from them., who goes in and expects them to be like SWG? Who said that?
Some of us would like to play such a game again, handled better, with up to date game-play. It really wouldn't need VO IMO, it doesn't have to be Stars Wars.
This thread is about these things, you're wasting others time by trying to drown out others thoughts with this kind of trite response. No one who'd like to see such a game or the genre itself moving in that direction, cares if you would like to see it or not, or anyone else who wouldn't.. start your own thread(s) about the games you like or what have you.
People never cease to amaze me around here, it's like someone kicked their dog when they hear someone would rather see this or that, over what's available now. It's a forum, there's no rule that says only talk about modern games or their designs.
-smiles-
I played EVE, am waiting for Elite, I played Wurm (though not much because neither of my machines seem to take to its java client well enough not to tank the FPS), I played Ryzom, Entropia, Archeage, etc. Add on top of that that I've played every other MMO from WoW to GW2 to End of Nations (before it got canned) and a few other MMORTS games. I've likely played SWG-like games you've never even heard of (Therian Saga comes to mind here) and am currently waiting for The Repopulation.
It never ceases to amaze me how hostile people are when they are being told to stop living in the past... granted I did it too trying to find another EVE from like 2009 to 2011 but I realized looking for a game within others is pointless as is really comparing them unless they're meant to be spiritual sequels or inspired by and even then only in terms of mechanics. You didn't kick my dog, I just take exemption to people shitting on other people's dogs because what? yours had to be put down due to birth defects?
Also as per the title of this thread: "It's pretty sad no (current) MMO can hold a candle to 2003." there's no rule saying people cannot point out others should be realists when dealing with modern games especially when they continually forget the negatives of past ones. This goes especially for games that want to recreate the feel of old games but numpties with meter thick rose glasses go around ripping those games new ones because the originals were "perfect" by comparison when in truth they were barely functional in release state in most cases and/or had enough bugs to make a termite colony jealous.
Well, let's see. OP was stating his precious SWG was much better than all the MMOs out there so why can't the others voice their opinions why it wasn't for them. You even acknowledge that it's all subjective so yea. Opinions are like assholes everybody has one and it stinks.
This is still an open forum is it not?
Because most are doing so as a defense mechanism, rather thant doing it to discuss the topic, that much is obvious with their rhetoric. So what if the op doesn't find new games as good? No one is coming up with reasons why modern games are better or offer more, they're just lashing out telling people to move on. Or pointing out the issues SWG had, as if every game doesn't have issues. Not to mention issues aren't what this topic are about , the topic is about the many features SWG had that modern games simply don't or the abundance of features. Which is a fairly good topic to discuss, especially at this juncture in the genre.
Yes it's an open forum, which makes the OP's point perfectly valid, too bad no one actually wants to focus on it.
To me at least, it appears that you are being extremely defensive. But whatever. Keep fighting the good fight or whatever. Maybe relax on implying everyone else is defensive except you though.
I played EVE, am waiting for Elite, I played Wurm (though not much because neither of my machines seem to take to its java client well enough not to tank the FPS), I played Ryzom, Entropia, Archeage, etc. Add on top of that that I've played every other MMO from WoW to GW2 to End of Nations (before it got canned) and a few other MMORTS games. I've likely played SWG-like games you've never even heard of (Therian Saga comes to mind here) and am currently waiting for The Repopulation.
It never ceases to amaze me how hostile people are when they are being told to stop living in the past... granted I did it too trying to find another EVE from like 2009 to 2011 but I realized looking for a game within others is pointless as is really comparing them unless they're meant to be spiritual sequels or inspired by and even then only in terms of mechanics. You didn't kick my dog, I just take exemption to people shitting on other people's dogs because what? yours had to be put down due to birth defects?
Also as per the title of this thread: "It's pretty sad no (current) MMO can hold a candle to 2003." there's no rule saying people cannot point out others should be realists when dealing with modern games especially when the continually forget the negatives of past ones. This goes especially for games that want to recreate the feel of old games but numpties with meter thick rose glasses go around ripping those games new ones because the originals were "perfect" by comparison when in truth they were barely functional in release state in most cases and/or had enough bugs to make a termite colony jealous.
It's hostile in and of itself to lash out and simply tell others to move on, because they're sharing how they feel about games today, one way or he other. You wouldn't say such a thing if you didn't take offense at someone's solitary opinion on today's features vs those in 2003...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Well, let's see. OP was stating his precious SWG was much better than all the MMOs out there so why can't the others voice their opinions why it wasn't for them. You even acknowledge that it's all subjective so yea. Opinions are like assholes everybody has one and it stinks.
This is still an open forum is it not?
Because most are doing so as a defense mechanism, rather thant doing it to discuss the topic, that much is obvious with their rhetoric. So what if the op doesn't find new games as good? No one is coming up with reasons why modern games are better or offer more, they're just lashing out telling people to move on. Or pointing out the issues SWG had, as if every game doesn't have issues. Not to mention issues aren't what this topic are about , the topic is about the many features SWG had that modern games simply don't or the abundance of features. Which is a fairly good topic to discuss, especially at this juncture in the genre.
Yes it's an open forum, which makes the OP's point perfectly valid, too bad no one actually wants to focus on it.
To me at least, it appears that you are being extremely defensive. But whatever. Keep fighting the good fight or whatever. Maybe relax on implying everyone else is defensive except you though.
My tone is as it is because it's 6 am and I have to be at work in an hour...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I played EVE, am waiting for Elite, I played Wurm (though not much because neither of my machines seem to take to its java client well enough not to tank the FPS), I played Ryzom, Entropia, Archeage, etc. Add on top of that that I've played every other MMO from WoW to GW2 to End of Nations (before it got canned) and a few other MMORTS games. I've likely played SWG-like games you've never even heard of (Therian Saga comes to mind here) and am currently waiting for The Repopulation.
It never ceases to amaze me how hostile people are when they are being told to stop living in the past... granted I did it too trying to find another EVE from like 2009 to 2011 but I realized looking for a game within others is pointless as is really comparing them unless they're meant to be spiritual sequels or inspired by and even then only in terms of mechanics. You didn't kick my dog, I just take exemption to people shitting on other people's dogs because what? yours had to be put down due to birth defects?
Also as per the title of this thread: "It's pretty sad no (current) MMO can hold a candle to 2003." there's no rule saying people cannot point out others should be realists when dealing with modern games especially when the continually forget the negatives of past ones. This goes especially for games that want to recreate the feel of old games but numpties with meter thick rose glasses go around ripping those games new ones because the originals were "perfect" by comparison when in truth they were barely functional in release state in most cases and/or had enough bugs to make a termite colony jealous.
It's hostile in and of itself to lash out and simply tell others to move on, because they're sharing how they feel about games today, one way or he other. You wouldn't say such a thing if you didn't take offense at someone's solitary opinion on today's features vs those in 2003...
It's incredibly toxic to praise a past game when viewed only on its plus sides and look down at current ones because they lack what, to you and others, made that past game great. I told no one to move on, I told them to be realistic and if you cannot tell the difference it's no wonder you are doing exactly what you're accusing me of. SWG was a interesting game pre-NGE, did it have promise in certain regards? sure but it also had monumental failings as well. As others have pointed out already WoW sped past it in under 8 weeks in terms of subscribers not because of its ease of access, lack of annoying death penalties and whatnot but because it had fewer of those failings (the level grind tho... was broken for years) and offered a more easier to get into experience.
You guys need to accept that while SWG was a good idea so was Tabula Rasa and a slew of other games that have come and gone since. Don't worry though things are perking up in regards to getting out of the purely themepark rut (AA shares many similarities with SWG on a mechanical level and while it has failings as well it is a nice omen to see).
I played EVE, am waiting for Elite, I played Wurm (though not much because neither of my machines seem to take to its java client well enough not to tank the FPS), I played Ryzom, Entropia, Archeage, etc. Add on top of that that I've played every other MMO from WoW to GW2 to End of Nations (before it got canned) and a few other MMORTS games. I've likely played SWG-like games you've never even heard of (Therian Saga comes to mind here) and am currently waiting for The Repopulation.
It never ceases to amaze me how hostile people are when they are being told to stop living in the past... granted I did it too trying to find another EVE from like 2009 to 2011 but I realized looking for a game within others is pointless as is really comparing them unless they're meant to be spiritual sequels or inspired by and even then only in terms of mechanics. You didn't kick my dog, I just take exemption to people shitting on other people's dogs because what? yours had to be put down due to birth defects?
Also as per the title of this thread: "It's pretty sad no (current) MMO can hold a candle to 2003." there's no rule saying people cannot point out others should be realists when dealing with modern games especially when the continually forget the negatives of past ones. This goes especially for games that want to recreate the feel of old games but numpties with meter thick rose glasses go around ripping those games new ones because the originals were "perfect" by comparison when in truth they were barely functional in release state in most cases and/or had enough bugs to make a termite colony jealous.
It's hostile in and of itself to lash out and simply tell others to move on, because they're sharing how they feel about games today, one way or he other. You wouldn't say such a thing if you didn't take offense at someone's solitary opinion on today's features vs those in 2003...
It's incredibly toxic to praise a past game when viewed only on its plus sides and look down at current ones because they lack what, to you and others, made that past game great. I told no one to move on, I told them to be realistic and if you cannot tell the difference it's no wonder you are doing exactly what you're accusing me of. SWG was a interesting game pre-NGE, did it have promise in certain regards? sure but it also had monumental failings as well. As others have pointed out already WoW sped past it in under 8 weeks in terms of subscribers not because of its ease of access, lack of annoying death penalties and whatnot but because it had fewer of those failings (the level grind tho... was broken for years) and offered a more easier to get into experience.
You guys need to accept that while SWG was a good idea so was Tabula Rasa and a slew of other games that have come and gone since. Don't worry though things are perking up in regards to getting out of the purely themepark rut (AA shares many similarities with SWG on a mechanical level and while it has failings as well it is a nice omen to see).
"Live in the present people" what exactly does this imply except move on?
Could you please (with sugar on top) at least grasp what the OP as well as others are saying? No one is denying SWG had issues, no one implied anything close to that.
The topic is about features, it just happened to be SWG that had them... The ops entire post was about features, and that he'd rather see those kinds of things being the focus.. SWG's problems have nothing to do with that.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I played EVE, am waiting for Elite, I played Wurm (though not much because neither of my machines seem to take to its java client well enough not to tank the FPS), I played Ryzom, Entropia, Archeage, etc. Add on top of that that I've played every other MMO from WoW to GW2 to End of Nations (before it got canned) and a few other MMORTS games. I've likely played SWG-like games you've never even heard of (Therian Saga comes to mind here) and am currently waiting for The Repopulation.
It never ceases to amaze me how hostile people are when they are being told to stop living in the past... granted I did it too trying to find another EVE from like 2009 to 2011 but I realized looking for a game within others is pointless as is really comparing them unless they're meant to be spiritual sequels or inspired by and even then only in terms of mechanics. You didn't kick my dog, I just take exemption to people shitting on other people's dogs because what? yours had to be put down due to birth defects?
Also as per the title of this thread: "It's pretty sad no (current) MMO can hold a candle to 2003." there's no rule saying people cannot point out others should be realists when dealing with modern games especially when the continually forget the negatives of past ones. This goes especially for games that want to recreate the feel of old games but numpties with meter thick rose glasses go around ripping those games new ones because the originals were "perfect" by comparison when in truth they were barely functional in release state in most cases and/or had enough bugs to make a termite colony jealous.
It's hostile in and of itself to lash out and simply tell others to move on, because they're sharing how they feel about games today, one way or he other. You wouldn't say such a thing if you didn't take offense at someone's solitary opinion on today's features vs those in 2003...
It's incredibly toxic to praise a past game when viewed only on its plus sides and look down at current ones because they lack what, to you and others, made that past game great. I told no one to move on, I told them to be realistic and if you cannot tell the difference it's no wonder you are doing exactly what you're accusing me of. SWG was a interesting game pre-NGE, did it have promise in certain regards? sure but it also had monumental failings as well. As others have pointed out already WoW sped past it in under 8 weeks in terms of subscribers not because of its ease of access, lack of annoying death penalties and whatnot but because it had fewer of those failings (the level grind tho... was broken for years) and offered a more easier to get into experience.
You guys need to accept that while SWG was a good idea so was Tabula Rasa and a slew of other games that have come and gone since. Don't worry though things are perking up in regards to getting out of the purely themepark rut (AA shares many similarities with SWG on a mechanical level and while it has failings as well it is a nice omen to see).
"Live in the present people" what exactly does this imply except move on?
Could you please (with sugar on top) at least grasp what the OP as well as others are saying? No one is denying SWG had issues, no one implied anything close to that.
The topic is about features, it just happened to be SWG that had them... The ops entire post was about features, and that he'd rather see those kinds of things being the focus.. SWG's problems have nothing to do with that.
-facepalm- yes because living in the present you would see games that have most of the features you, and others, liked in SWG. Instead you stomp your feet and demand what exactly? A AAA SWG remake? Not going to happen, AA is barely AA and Repopulation is around A standards and this isn't down to anyone being at fault but what is and isn't popular for the biggest piece of the market to ensure returns and profitability over the long haul. Most people want to have fun in whichever way they find appealing, for you that may mean immersion for another it may mean a skinner box, whatever it may be.
"Live in the present people" what exactly does this imply except move on?
Could you please (with sugar on top) at least grasp what the OP as well as others are saying? No one is denying SWG had issues, no one implied anything close to that.
The topic is about features, it just happened to be SWG that had them... The ops entire post was about features, and that he'd rather see those kinds of things being the focus.. SWG's problems have nothing to do with that.
I hate to say it, but you are being unreasonably hostile towards Dihoru.
It may not be what people want to hear, but he's made some good points. And the OP, while he is talking about features, he's been repeatedly trying to compare them to games that have little-nothing in common w/ the one he admires so much (SWG).
We get it, SWG had some great mechanics. And definitely some really interesting ideas. But this thread wasn't structured around how interesting the ideas were. It was structured around 'objectively' (used incorrectly) all modern games are trash compared to SWG. The OPs point (and numerous others as well), essentially amounts to 'newer games are bad, because they aren't sandboxes. SWG is the best, because it's the pinnacle of sandbox MMO (at least according to the vocal minority on these forums).
People do need to live in the present a little. It's fine to look back fondly on a game you loved. But that's not what this thread is. This thread is a dilusional attempt to compare an MMO from 2003, to games today which are made around completely different circumstances. As I've mentioned earlier in this thread, the MMO market today is monumentally different from what it was back in 2003. For one, theres 100x more people playing these types of games. Secondly, the criteria (most) people want from their games is very much different (for better or worse).
In 2003, we had a few hundred thousand people in the entire genre. Now we have 10s of millions. Those of us that want games like we had back in 2003 are the minority, which is why most modern games aren't being made for us. Though, with time this is changing. And it's highly likely we'll probably see games more closely mimicking those from 2003 in another 5-9 years. Because these things tend to go in cycles.
I like how everyone regards SWG as the holy grail of MMO's but it didn't have enough players to keep it afloat. I'm pretty sure this is just nostalgia.
Many people here are claiming the OP is just being nostalgic and not really remembering everything the way it really was. and there may be some measure of "Rose colored glasses" he's looking back through. But I think there is also some truth to what he is saying.
1. Today's MMOs are clearly aiming for greater mass appeal. This means catering to the lowest common denominator. Quality has suffered.
2. Far too much shift towards single player experience. To the point where the MMO aspect has been lost and we now have single player games where other people are playing their single player games in the same world. ESO's Emperor title? Really? What's that saying about too many chiefs and no braves? So now we have MMOs trying to compete in the single player experience and totally fail because the SP games blow MMOs away for that.
3. Ultimately, I think the proof is in the pudding. Keeping ratios even.....That is, accounting for the larger populations from then to today, mostly due to the mass-appeal thing I mentioned above . The older game's while smaller in overall populations had a much higher long term retention percentage of their players. Meaning, those games delivered more of what their target audience was looking for than games today. Today, we have totaling sales in and around the millions with MASSIVE drop-offs after 30 days. If that isn't an indication of a target market that is not getting what it's been promised, I don't know what is.
Yet we look at these games because they manage to still make profits after that and say that's a success and that the drop-offs are just to be expected. I say, that's not true. I say that's clearly a tremendous failure within the genre and indicated a much larger sense of disappointment from the players who are searching for an experience.
Although, most of them are probably trying to re capture their experience from the 1st 4-6 years of WoW, I suppose you can even add that time frame to the OP's list since that experience is gone too.
As for SWG...People love to look at it as an example of failure. Well, it had problems, huge problems. But it's ultimate failure was due to mismanagement and not poor design.
Archeage thats all i can say. Generic questing and tab target, you love it you hate it but man this is one heck of a deep mmo with tons and tons of features.
For me personaly this is a mmo that comes in my top 3 of best mmo's i have played in 15 years.
#1 Eve Online #2 Arheage #3 World of Warcraft Vanila / TBC days
offcourse to each his own flavor and taste but after playing this mmo on russian servers and Trions Alpha i still cant get enough of it. Most mmo's i played last decade dint even last 3 weeks or 2 months.
Archeage thats all i can say. Generic questing and tab target, you love it you hate it but man this is one heck of a deep mmo with tons and tons of features.
For me personaly this is a mmo that comes in my top 3 of best mmo's i have played in 15 years.
#1 Eve Online #2 Arheage #3 World of Warcraft Vanila / TBC days
offcourse to each his own flavor and taste but after playing this mmo on russian servers and Trions Alpha i still cant get enough of it. Most mmo's i played last decade dint even last 3 weeks or 2 months.
Oh, yeah, ArcheAge.....That reminds me, I forget to mention that we used to be able to get that full experience for only $15.00 a month too.
Comments
But again, tell us that don't know what you all are talking about, what exactly it is fromSWG that you all want in a modern MMO, and how did that feature work.
I believe a lot of you would have more of the games you want, with the things you want in them, if only you all actually took the time to talk about and discuss, and explain what it is that you envision as great concepts from the past. Because I am sure, more MMO developers may also never played those games, and have no clue what you all are talking about, and why such a feature was popular at all. It may be a great idea to some developer somewhere, yet they simply don't know it exist. So why not discuss and detail what it is that you all want from these older MMOs.
Because usually when I try to start a discussion asking you all about this, I get called a troll or stupid, or get the same old "I WANT FFA FULL LOOT MMO WITH NO CAREBEARS" yet you all get many of these same type games yet never support them, so what does that tell developers mentally about the stuff you all like. But maybe that's not the same vocal community as the rest of you vet MMO gamers,
so that's exactly why I say its best to discuss it, instead of continuing to make more of the same old "ALL MODERN DAY MMOS SUCK" threads, that have no real value to progress of the genre.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
You are playing with nostalgia tinted glasses.
If SWG released today it would get torn to shreds. No content, no voice acting, 99% of crafted gear is useless, rubber banding, broken classes, shooting through walls, half of the features do not work, servers shut down for maintenance every night, everybody is afk/macroing, jedi class negates 75% of every crafting class' usefulness, the list goes on.
But it sure was fun. For my first real mmo, it was hard to beat. Mostly because I expected the genre to go this way. I loved the idea of SWG. Most of my game time was spent working through the stuff that was broken, just because I could do it. There was so little content, that making useless items with maxed stats that nobody wanted becamse its own content. And people geeked out on a combat staff with maxed speed and min damage not because it was actually any good, but because it was something to do in the game.
SWG had so much potential that we stuck around hoping it would get better and eventually gave up and just made the best of a half finished game. What a way to break into the genre haha. Good times.
If you took the time to read the things people are saying, then you'd have your answer, but i suspect that the answers your hearing, are not the ones you want to hear, because they don't fall into the FFA FULL LOOT MMO WITH NO CAREBEARS that you seem to want to turn it into. If you are really interested then look again. The trouble is, it is not a single feature that made SWG what it was, but the synergy of the ones it did, and that is also why no current game has them, not even Archeage, as SOE discovered, its a synergy that is easily broken. Trouble is, even if you could take a few of SWG's features and implement them into a game, you would have the same problem. But no developer since has really tried to do what was done with SWG, which is a shame, it might be a niche market, but too many developers seem to be trying to achieve WoW status, and they always fail.
If ANY of the games released in the last few years were released in 2003 they would have taken giant shits all over WoW and any other mmo in 2003....
I've come to realize that its not the games at all, its the community.
I'm still undecided as to whether I'm faced with a ton of younger generation players who are more attuned to instant gratification and therefore have no frame of reference to the history of these games at all
OR
The older players have soured themselves by assuming that every game made after the EQ2/WoW era would include EVERY feature of EVERY previous mmo in history, both flaw-less and bug-less as well as stuffed to the brim with expansions on release...
I remember when I was 12 I thought that I would have a hover car by the time I was 30, expectations exceed reality.
In conclusion, I have realized that both of those realities suck... and both of them are true. : (
It's pretty sad that certain MMO gamers go into a game expecting another game and end up saying idiocies like: GW2 is exactly like The Secret World which is exactly like WoW... that's like saying Red Alert 2 is the same as Starcraft 2...or Call of Duty is the same as S.T.A.L.K.E.R...... if you keep going to game after game after game and you find them the same as each other... you are either playing only EA's sports lineup or the issue isn't the games it is you.
Also played SWG and Shadowbane in a non-mainstream capacity... I rank their ease of access for noob players lower than EVE-Online circa 2004 (do I need to get that graph out?), their aesthetics seemed ok even if the graphics were date but they just felt clunky, unintuitive messes compared to other more modern games. Do modern games offer the sheer scope? Of course not because modern games have the be flashy and sexy (look at all the people tearing AA a new one because "lol dated chinesy graphics!!! so lame!!!!!" ) and also cast a wide enough net to get people and weigh it down well enough with depth to keep people around whereas UO, SWG, Shadowbane, etc, knew they were the only kids on the block that did what they did at the time they launched so they knew they'd get a chunk of the market regardless how small it was. I mean Christ this is like saying Sim City does not hold a candle to Dwarf Fortress (I love the latter btw) when the latter is obviously a labor of love and a low investment risk due to low yields required.
Live in the present people and know where to look because complaining that WoW isn't SWG or that Black Oil isn't SWG or whatever other themepark isn't SWG is pointless, counterproductive and a waste of everyone's time. Go in expecting a new experience not an old one raised from the dead.
Well, let's see. OP was stating his precious SWG was much better than all the MMOs out there so why can't the others voice their opinions why it wasn't for them. You even acknowledge that it's all subjective so yea. Opinions are like assholes everybody has one and it stinks.
This is still an open forum is it not?
Reading these forums I am not sure we will ever find a game that will give us that special feeling we had in our favourite game back in the days. My game was Dark Age Of Camelot.
That game gave me the best gaming experience I have ever had. It was not my first but it was the first that got me hooked. When I look back at DAOC I remember it as the best game ever and I think it is because it gave me that special feeling that you won't be able to get again. No matter how good the new games are.
And I think this is because you will only remember the best parts of that special game of yours. When I think behind all that nostalgia I remember what I hated about DAOC. I hated that the made all the new classes so ridicolous overpowered that it made PVP unplayable. Maybe to sell more expansions? I hate that they added Trials Of Atlantis (Expansion) that made a lot of items ridicolous and the PVP unbalanced. I hated the new frontiers they added. Things that made me quit the game.
Still I remember it as the best game ever because it was the first game that really got me hooked. It was the first game I got hooked on PVP. First game I tried crafting. First game you got yourself a name on a server and so on. So when a new game arrives I often have fun early on but then that goes down and in the end I leave. I am pretty sure that many games have been just as good as DAOC, when I do myself the favour and remember DAOC as it really was, instead of gloryfying it in my head.
So we are looking for that special fix again but we won't get it. We compare all new games with that old game of ours that we loved. And since we just remember how it made us feel not how it really was then new games can't compete no matter if they have the same features or not. We will always find something that is wrong. Just like we did back in the days with our favourite game but we choose not to remember that.
I was interested in SWG at the time it released, but didn't play it. Because I had two friends who were working on the dev team, and the told me privately that the game was being released a year too soon, and was horribly buggy and broken.
You can still love it, but it doesn't mean it was not poorly done in many ways. I know; I still have Master of Orion 3 on my hard drive, though I will never tell anyone it was a good game.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
AN easy suggestion is read other threads, I moved on in 2005, most others did as well, I don't hate modern games, I just don't get as much longevity from them., who goes in and expects them to be like SWG? Who said that?
Some of us would like to play such a game again, handled better, with up to date game-play. It really wouldn't need VO IMO, it doesn't have to be Stars Wars.
This thread is about these things, you're wasting others time by trying to drown out others thoughts with this kind of trite response. No one who'd like to see such a game or the genre itself moving in that direction, cares if you would like to see it or not, or anyone else who wouldn't.. start your own thread(s) about the games you like or what have you.
People never cease to amaze me around here, it's like someone kicked their dog when they hear someone would rather see this or that, over what's available now. It's a forum, there's no rule that says only talk about modern games or their designs.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Because most are doing so as a defense mechanism, rather than doing it to discuss the topic, that much is obvious with their rhetoric. So what if the op doesn't find new games as good? No one is coming up with reasons why modern games are better or offer more, they're just lashing out telling people to move on. Or pointing out the issues SWG had, as if every game doesn't have issues. Not to mention issues aren't what this topic is about , the topic is about the many features SWG had that modern games simply don't or the abundance of features. Which is a fairly good topic to discuss, especially at this juncture in the genre.
Yes it's an open forum, which makes the OP's point perfectly valid, too bad no one actually wants to focus on it.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
-smiles-
I played EVE, am waiting for Elite, I played Wurm (though not much because neither of my machines seem to take to its java client well enough not to tank the FPS), I played Ryzom, Entropia, Archeage, etc. Add on top of that that I've played every other MMO from WoW to GW2 to End of Nations (before it got canned) and a few other MMORTS games. I've likely played SWG-like games you've never even heard of (Therian Saga comes to mind here) and am currently waiting for The Repopulation.
It never ceases to amaze me how hostile people are when they are being told to stop living in the past... granted I did it too trying to find another EVE from like 2009 to 2011 but I realized looking for a game within others is pointless as is really comparing them unless they're meant to be spiritual sequels or inspired by and even then only in terms of mechanics. You didn't kick my dog, I just take exemption to people shitting on other people's dogs because what? yours had to be put down due to birth defects?
Also as per the title of this thread: "It's pretty sad no (current) MMO can hold a candle to 2003." there's no rule saying people cannot point out others should be realists when dealing with modern games especially when they continually forget the negatives of past ones. This goes especially for games that want to recreate the feel of old games but numpties with meter thick rose glasses go around ripping those games new ones because the originals were "perfect" by comparison when in truth they were barely functional in release state in most cases and/or had enough bugs to make a termite colony jealous.
To me at least, it appears that you are being extremely defensive. But whatever. Keep fighting the good fight or whatever. Maybe relax on implying everyone else is defensive except you though.
It's hostile in and of itself to lash out and simply tell others to move on, because they're sharing how they feel about games today, one way or he other. You wouldn't say such a thing if you didn't take offense at someone's solitary opinion on today's features vs those in 2003...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
My tone is as it is because it's 6 am and I have to be at work in an hour...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
It's incredibly toxic to praise a past game when viewed only on its plus sides and look down at current ones because they lack what, to you and others, made that past game great. I told no one to move on, I told them to be realistic and if you cannot tell the difference it's no wonder you are doing exactly what you're accusing me of. SWG was a interesting game pre-NGE, did it have promise in certain regards? sure but it also had monumental failings as well. As others have pointed out already WoW sped past it in under 8 weeks in terms of subscribers not because of its ease of access, lack of annoying death penalties and whatnot but because it had fewer of those failings (the level grind tho... was broken for years) and offered a more easier to get into experience.
You guys need to accept that while SWG was a good idea so was Tabula Rasa and a slew of other games that have come and gone since. Don't worry though things are perking up in regards to getting out of the purely themepark rut (AA shares many similarities with SWG on a mechanical level and while it has failings as well it is a nice omen to see).
"Live in the present people" what exactly does this imply except move on?
Could you please (with sugar on top) at least grasp what the OP as well as others are saying? No one is denying SWG had issues, no one implied anything close to that.
The topic is about features, it just happened to be SWG that had them... The ops entire post was about features, and that he'd rather see those kinds of things being the focus.. SWG's problems have nothing to do with that.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
-facepalm- yes because living in the present you would see games that have most of the features you, and others, liked in SWG. Instead you stomp your feet and demand what exactly? A AAA SWG remake? Not going to happen, AA is barely AA and Repopulation is around A standards and this isn't down to anyone being at fault but what is and isn't popular for the biggest piece of the market to ensure returns and profitability over the long haul. Most people want to have fun in whichever way they find appealing, for you that may mean immersion for another it may mean a skinner box, whatever it may be.
Also just for fun:
http://mmohuts.com/news/therian-saga-review
http://sandboxer.org/
http://limeodyssey.aeriagames.com/overview/features
http://manyland.com/
http://www.auteria.com/index.php
http://sandboxfreak.blogspot.ro/p/testing.html
Live in the present because sandboxes much more feature rich or at least less restrictive than SWG exist right now.
I hate to say it, but you are being unreasonably hostile towards Dihoru.
It may not be what people want to hear, but he's made some good points. And the OP, while he is talking about features, he's been repeatedly trying to compare them to games that have little-nothing in common w/ the one he admires so much (SWG).
We get it, SWG had some great mechanics. And definitely some really interesting ideas. But this thread wasn't structured around how interesting the ideas were. It was structured around 'objectively' (used incorrectly) all modern games are trash compared to SWG. The OPs point (and numerous others as well), essentially amounts to 'newer games are bad, because they aren't sandboxes. SWG is the best, because it's the pinnacle of sandbox MMO (at least according to the vocal minority on these forums).
People do need to live in the present a little. It's fine to look back fondly on a game you loved. But that's not what this thread is. This thread is a dilusional attempt to compare an MMO from 2003, to games today which are made around completely different circumstances. As I've mentioned earlier in this thread, the MMO market today is monumentally different from what it was back in 2003. For one, theres 100x more people playing these types of games. Secondly, the criteria (most) people want from their games is very much different (for better or worse).
In 2003, we had a few hundred thousand people in the entire genre. Now we have 10s of millions. Those of us that want games like we had back in 2003 are the minority, which is why most modern games aren't being made for us. Though, with time this is changing. And it's highly likely we'll probably see games more closely mimicking those from 2003 in another 5-9 years. Because these things tend to go in cycles.
SWG no longer exists, UO does.
Whats that say about 1999?
Plus the OP can still play the game, as well as everyone else that thinks SWG was the height of MMO's; yet they don't. Very telling.
Many people here are claiming the OP is just being nostalgic and not really remembering everything the way it really was. and there may be some measure of "Rose colored glasses" he's looking back through. But I think there is also some truth to what he is saying.
1. Today's MMOs are clearly aiming for greater mass appeal. This means catering to the lowest common denominator. Quality has suffered.
2. Far too much shift towards single player experience. To the point where the MMO aspect has been lost and we now have single player games where other people are playing their single player games in the same world. ESO's Emperor title? Really? What's that saying about too many chiefs and no braves? So now we have MMOs trying to compete in the single player experience and totally fail because the SP games blow MMOs away for that.
3. Ultimately, I think the proof is in the pudding. Keeping ratios even.....That is, accounting for the larger populations from then to today, mostly due to the mass-appeal thing I mentioned above . The older game's while smaller in overall populations had a much higher long term retention percentage of their players. Meaning, those games delivered more of what their target audience was looking for than games today. Today, we have totaling sales in and around the millions with MASSIVE drop-offs after 30 days. If that isn't an indication of a target market that is not getting what it's been promised, I don't know what is.
Yet we look at these games because they manage to still make profits after that and say that's a success and that the drop-offs are just to be expected. I say, that's not true. I say that's clearly a tremendous failure within the genre and indicated a much larger sense of disappointment from the players who are searching for an experience.
Although, most of them are probably trying to re capture their experience from the 1st 4-6 years of WoW, I suppose you can even add that time frame to the OP's list since that experience is gone too.
As for SWG...People love to look at it as an example of failure. Well, it had problems, huge problems. But it's ultimate failure was due to mismanagement and not poor design.
Archeage thats all i can say.
Generic questing and tab target, you love it you hate it but man this is one heck of a deep mmo with tons and tons of features.
For me personaly this is a mmo that comes in my top 3 of best mmo's i have played in 15 years.
#1 Eve Online
#2 Arheage
#3 World of Warcraft Vanila / TBC days
offcourse to each his own flavor and taste but after playing this mmo on russian servers and Trions Alpha i still cant get enough of it.
Most mmo's i played last decade dint even last 3 weeks or 2 months.
Oh, yeah, ArcheAge.....That reminds me, I forget to mention that we used to be able to get that full experience for only $15.00 a month too.
99% of Developers nowadays need to make the most money with the least amount of effort.
The other 1% are making EQNext https://www.everquestnext.com/home
and Albion Online http://albiononline.com/
"My Fantasy is having two men at once...
One Cooking and One Cleaning!"
---------------------------
"A good man can make you feel sexy,
strong and able to take on the whole world...
oh sorry...that's wine...wine does that..."