I cannot express how happy i am with Archeage design choices o/
So many haters and trolls wont be playing this mmo that i am jumping of joy o/
And still it managed to reach spot 5 and 6 on best selling games in Steam and no idea how many people bought it directly from Trion o/
Labor points is the best thing ever created in Archeage o/
Servers were packed in closed beta and man i cannot wait till its going to be released o/
And pay to win ? i have not found it in Archeage....i tried to but i saw these labor potions with big cooldowns account wide and tought hmm i dont need those as patron o/
Totaly love XLGames / Trion and the way this mmo is shaping up o/
Only took a decade or so to get something like this but well worth the wait o/
As for LP being an "artificial" barrier, all the rules in any MMO are "artificial barriers". They usually exist to regulate game play in a way that the game designer intended. It's not unusual for players to refer to the rules as "stupid" when they don't like the rules.
There is a significant difference between mechanics and monetization. The issue people have isn't that the rules are a barrier to their gameplay, it's that cash is a barrier to their gameplay. You expressed this same concern when awaiting Wildstar, so I'm not getting your lack of understanding/empathy here.
You don't see the difference between my complaint regarding "usual Cash Shop monetization strategies" and the situation in AA ? Quite simply then, in AA my sub gets me what I want, whereas in most F2P games that is not the case. Hence no complaints about AA in that regard.
I take issue with the fact that many people are accusing the game design of being purely a money-grab. They refuse to acknowledge that it could be strongly motivated by the need to curb goldsellers, which would be rampant in AA if the F2P accounts had free access to everything. These curbs are only effective if backed by a dedicated publisher who monitors and polices game activity, which does not appear to be the case in Russia (?).
The most common complaint hinges on the fact that players can't do stuff "fast enough". They are frustrated and angry because they can't powerlevel their crafting professions to 70K in the first week after launch. That is the "modern way" in the west, and any game that dares to run against that expectation is immediately labeled as a "monumental asian grinder"...
There is no difference other than your personal acceptance of a paywall here and rejection of it elsewhere. It doesn't impact how you want to play, there you find it agreeable, citing with great hyperbole your assumed reasons why other people dislike it despite them saying nothing of the sort.
As for the gold sellers, this doesn't affect them. They are often using hacked and stolen accounts, and they will cycle through them as necessary to achieve their goals. Historically, they have a pattern of identifying the best mid-level drop/resource or mid-level grind spot to maximize their return.
Those bots are 'playing' for a different reason than you are. They are 'playing' differently than you are. They are not restricted by the same caps that you are restricted by. The most significant difference is that their characters and accounts are disposable to them.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
As for LP being an "artificial" barrier, all the rules in any MMO are "artificial barriers". They usually exist to regulate game play in a way that the game designer intended. It's not unusual for players to refer to the rules as "stupid" when they don't like the rules.
There is a significant difference between mechanics and monetization. The issue people have isn't that the rules are a barrier to their gameplay, it's that cash is a barrier to their gameplay. You expressed this same concern when awaiting Wildstar, so I'm not getting your lack of understanding/empathy here.
I don't get it.
If you are a subscriber you get a higher cap on LP, you get online regen, you get offline regen, you can spend some in game gold once a day to rest at a tavern and regen 25% of your LP in one go. If you subscribe then the LP factor becomes a non issue as has been illustrated in previous posts.
If you are playing the game as a F2P player then cash SHOULD be a barrier to your gameplay. Thats what F2P is....
Neither of us are arguing otherwise. I was using his post to illustrate how many people are against free to play when it affects their personal playstyle, but do a 180 on their view of the payment model, often with derision and reproach, when it affects someone else's.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The labor points act as a stupid filter. Stupid people hate labor points because it forces them to think and make decisions. When they make the wrong ones they get disgusted, blame the game then leave the game. I love the labor points just for that reason
Sure we're strapped down and our leg room is limited without paying a cent, but it has some fun elements that is accessable to everyone, like being apart of a guild, and PVPing. ;D and boats and even swimming!
This is an Asian grinder, why is this even a surprise?
They gate something to make you run to the cash shop...
The big boosters of AA make this game out to be something "new and innovative" and all the other BS to hype some people into playing and make themselves feel better about laying down $150 for alpha access. It's not.
All it is is the same old grinder in a shiny new package. (And the shiny is already coming off.)
This "debate" over whether LP potions is P2W is extremely simple to solve. Btw: it is.
First, I am going to define what I believe the common agreed upon definition of P2W is: the ability to purchase an item with real world money that would allow a player to complete a task - whether it's crafting, leveling, etc - faster than a player who does not purchase the same item.
Whenever you pay real world money, in order to do something faster than a player who does not pay real world money, your game is PAY TO WIN. It's as simple as that.
To make it even simpler: a non-pay-to-win game will have cosmetic items for sale and 0 items that directly affect game play.
So, it's MORE THAN CLEAR a game that sells a resource which is used for nearly everything a player does - for real world money - is a game that is P2W.
Now, what Archeage does to it's subscription players is even worse. In fact, it's only a glorified subscription since you are still handicapped by the contents of your wallet/bank account. A subscription based player in Archeage, that does not purchase LP Pots on the real money market, will NEVER have as much LP as a person who pays both a subscription and then drops further money on a LP Pot. What is even worse than that is that a F2P player who pays for LP Pots can get more LP in a single day than a subscription player alone. Way to support those who support you XL!
So, in order to maximize your efficiency, you have to pay for the subscription monthly and then drop more money on the LP pot with it's 12 HR cooldown. I'm guessing you have to buy each pot individually too which makes it a recurring cost if you are serious about getting the most out of the game. To not make the most out of the game, you are accepting time sinks that are mitigated by cash. "Need 2k LP to finish that boat but don't want to wait nearly a full day to recoup the LP? That's OK...just give us MONEY!!!"
You may be fine with subscription player A paying more than subscription player B in order to get things done faster. However, don't re-define a word because you like a game. That's disingenuous.
Simple Math:
F2P player: (24 in game hours since regen is only in game) = 1440 LP total
F2P player + LP Pots: 24 In game hours = 5440 (1440 LP + 2K pot X2)
Subscription player (out of game hours at 5 LP every 5 minutes) = 1440
Subscription player (in game hours AT 10 LP every 5 minutes) = 2880
Subscription player with LP Pot (in game since you can't use Pot out of game) = 6880
Now...if the game was proper F2P NO player could pay money to get things done faster than another player. There are plenty of F2P games that only sell cosmetic items and do just fine. As we can clearly see, this game is NOT a pure F2P game.
If the game was a proper subscription based game, then no player could pay more money to get something faster than someone only paying their monthly subscription (think WoW or FF14: ARR)...this clearly isn't the case since a player can pay a sub and then buy in the cash shop and get things done faster. WoW is going to sell lvl 90 character which is the most egregious form of P2W IMHO.
If the game was a proper subscription/F2P game, a F2P player could only pay real world money to get things done as fast - but never faster - than a subscription based player. The entire point would be for someone who plays casually and doesn't want to drop money for a sub when they are not playing but would like to not be handicapped when they are playing and is willing to pay piecemeal. That is a WONDERFUL idea...but it's clearly not how this game works.
If this game was P2W, a player could pay real world money to get things done faster than another player: whether F2P or Subscription.
Now, let's see:
F2P with LP Pot = faster than F2P AND Subscription player (shameful that F2P player can pay to get things done than someone who is consistently supporting the game with a monthly sub)
Subscription = faster than F2P but NOT faster than F2P with LP Pots
Subscription with LP Pot = Faster than Subscription, F2p with LP Pot, and F2P
Yup...the game fits the widely agreed upon definition of a Pay-to-Win game. Sorry for the long read, but I think it's important to have a common agreed upon definition and to be honest with ourselves; even when we are defending something we like.
Not that i have a side in this, But i think thats the point being made, why have a system to maintain control just so people can pay to get trough it and break the rules? While other games do have a barrier they don't allow people to pay an bypass it. Espically if you got a sub in place, even WoW doesn't allow you gain more valor or honor point via the shop.
WoW's valor/honor system is very different than how LP is implemented into AA - it's not apples to apples comparison.
LP also has a barrier - there's a cap - a subscriber (patron) would rarely (if ever) need to buy an LP potion - that's the point that many are missing.
If the LP potions were designed to be bought all the time by patrons - that would be totally F'd up - but that's not the case - patrons get offline and online LP regen at levels that negates them having to ever buy LP potions period.
As a patron - lets say you play 4 hours a day
4 hours online = 480 LP
20 hours offline = 1200 LP
So every 24 hours you would get 1680 LP - which totally negates the need to buy any potions.
I do not quite agree with this statement.
It all depends on what you do in those hrs of playtime. I can burn through 5k labor gathering in day playing with 20/5min in alpha.
Gathering Mining/logging is alot of labor. 1 trade pack is 120 labor (make and trade in) which is about an hour of playtime.
Item drop in northlands 1 princess chest is 100labor. 1 Unidentified armor is also 100 labor. (you will get more then 1 an hour unless you are bad at farming)
If you are using labor not in your garden you will run out as a patron without much difficulty. The gardening labor cost seems lower then everything else.
If you gather/farm I say 2-3hrs a day. You will probably have to buy potions even as a patron. If you are not a patron I do not know how you even play this game to begin with. Potions will not even be enough.
Either way if you focus alot of time (3+hrs a day) into the economy and not the PvP and Questing. You will have to buy potions.
If you want to play hardcore full time I would expect to spend 25-30 a month on Archeage. Which is typical in most f2p mmo honestly. Game is awsome, but this labor cash grab is my main gripe. F2P mode labor I am fine with 5/5, but patron needs to be 20/5 as in alpha at the least, and probably 10/5 offline.
The LP-system unfortunately killed all my interest in this title. In sandboxes i often want to exclusively dedicate myself to crafting/economy, and not interact with combat at all. In this game i can't do that.
When doing statistics, you need to remove all possible outliers from the equation (amount of time played, percieved goals of each player, etc) and test around that.
So, to make it easier, let's look at it a different way.
There are three players, each one of them is starting with 0 LP, and each one wants to build a 2k LP boat (hypothetical).
Player A: F2P
Player B: Subscription player
Player C: cash shop
it would take player A: 33.3333333 hours, of in game time, to make the 2k to build the boat
it would take player B: 16.6666666 hours, of in game time, to make the 2k to build the boat
it would take player C: as fast as it takes to buy an LP pot and use it to build the boat
When we test for the different payment schemes, where all other things are equal (as it should be when testing this), we see that the LP Pots will always give an advantage and that = P2W.
All it is is the same old grinder in a shiny new package. (And the shiny is already coming off.)
all MMO's are grinders by definition. At least AA makes the grind fun
Grind is just that, a grind. Just because you put a pretty wrapper on it doesn't make it less tedious. It actually points out the tedium even more.
And by in large, the Asian grinders are in a class all their own. (And they are, far, far more mindless grind than most Western competitors.)
Thus, the term.
A Grind by any other name is just a grind. This IS an Asian Grinder, BTW. XL Games is a Korean company, who is the developer. Trion is just the publisher.
As for LP being an "artificial" barrier, all the rules in any MMO are "artificial barriers". They usually exist to regulate game play in a way that the game designer intended. It's not unusual for players to refer to the rules as "stupid" when they don't like the rules.
There is a significant difference between mechanics and monetization. The issue people have isn't that the rules are a barrier to their gameplay, it's that cash is a barrier to their gameplay. You expressed this same concern when awaiting Wildstar, so I'm not getting your lack of understanding/empathy here.
You don't see the difference between my complaint regarding "usual Cash Shop monetization strategies" and the situation in AA ? Quite simply then, in AA my sub gets me what I want, whereas in most F2P games that is not the case. Hence no complaints about AA in that regard.
I take issue with the fact that many people are accusing the game design of being purely a money-grab. They refuse to acknowledge that it could be strongly motivated by the need to curb goldsellers, which would be rampant in AA if the F2P accounts had free access to everything. These curbs are only effective if backed by a dedicated publisher who monitors and polices game activity, which does not appear to be the case in Russia (?).
The most common complaint hinges on the fact that players can't do stuff "fast enough". They are frustrated and angry because they can't powerlevel their crafting professions to 70K in the first week after launch. That is the "modern way" in the west, and any game that dares to run against that expectation is immediately labeled as a "monumental asian grinder"...
There is no difference other than your personal acceptance of a paywall here and rejection of it elsewhere. It doesn't impact how you want to play, there you find it agreeable, citing with great hyperbole your assumed reasons why other people dislike it despite them saying nothing of the sort.
As for the gold sellers, this doesn't affect them. They are often using hacked and stolen accounts, and they will cycle through them as necessary to achieve their goals. Historically, they have a pattern of identifying the best mid-level drop/resource or mid-level grind spot to maximize their return.
Those bots are 'playing' for a different reason than you are. They are 'playing' differently than you are. They are not restricted by the same caps that you are restricted by. The most significant difference is that their characters and accounts are disposable to them.
What "acceptance of a paywall" are you talking about ? Which "paywall" am I accepting here and "rejecting" elsewhere ?
I have no problem paying monthly subs in any MMO. I have never complained about monthly subs. I have a problem with F2P games that usually force me to pay for cosmetic items which are often 90% Cash Shop exclusives.
I have not "changed my tune" on this matter or "given AA a free pass" or whatever you are trying to imply.
As for how effective the design will be in impeding goldseller activity, we shall have to see what happens after launch. I do believe that the design was partly motivated by this.
It also acts as a brake on the speed of the economy, which is probably the most important reason for its existence. Perhaps the design works better in Korea, but there's no way XLGames will fundamentally change the design for the "western version".
My only concern is how long can I mine/farm/fish/etc. in one sitting before I run out of LP.
I've heard that after 1-2 hours of fishing, give or take, you've ran through your LP, even as a patron. That bothers me because, from what I know (I haven't got to fish yet, but I did mine a bit) you get a fair bit of EXP from non-combat activities. I'd love to be able to level, at least semi-efficiently, by doing nothing but non-combat activities, but with the LP system, I'm not sure that it's viable.
Unless the game was made so you can't do that, in which case, the issue lies with me.
Some people consider crafting to be a mindless grind... others think raiding is. The difference is, one they consider fun, the other, they don't. In other words, if you like crafting, there can be no grind... it's all part of the crafting. Same would be true for raiding. All MMORPGS are grinds. There is not a single task in them that doesn't have it. The grind is only painful if you don't enjoy doing the task at all... in other words, you don't like that part of the game. So if crafting seems like a grind because it can't all be done in one sitting, then, perhaps you really aren't a fan of crafting. Same is true for raiding, PVP, exploring, whatever. There is NO GRIND if you find it fun. You're oblivious to it. If you can feel it and see it, you aren't really interested in it and are using the grind as an excuse... denial. Crafting isn't for everyone... I know it isn't for me. I do what I enjoy in these games and I don't do what I don't enjoy. If the game isn't enjoyable at all, I don't play it. There are other games and there is real life... endless possibilities.
As for LP being an "artificial" barrier, all the rules in any MMO are "artificial barriers". They usually exist to regulate game play in a way that the game designer intended. It's not unusual for players to refer to the rules as "stupid" when they don't like the rules.
There is a significant difference between mechanics and monetization. The issue people have isn't that the rules are a barrier to their gameplay, it's that cash is a barrier to their gameplay. You expressed this same concern when awaiting Wildstar, so I'm not getting your lack of understanding/empathy here.
You don't see the difference between my complaint regarding "usual Cash Shop monetization strategies" and the situation in AA ? Quite simply then, in AA my sub gets me what I want, whereas in most F2P games that is not the case. Hence no complaints about AA in that regard.
I take issue with the fact that many people are accusing the game design of being purely a money-grab. They refuse to acknowledge that it could be strongly motivated by the need to curb goldsellers, which would be rampant in AA if the F2P accounts had free access to everything. These curbs are only effective if backed by a dedicated publisher who monitors and polices game activity, which does not appear to be the case in Russia (?).
The most common complaint hinges on the fact that players can't do stuff "fast enough". They are frustrated and angry because they can't powerlevel their crafting professions to 70K in the first week after launch. That is the "modern way" in the west, and any game that dares to run against that expectation is immediately labeled as a "monumental asian grinder"...
There is no difference other than your personal acceptance of a paywall here and rejection of it elsewhere. It doesn't impact how you want to play, there you find it agreeable, citing with great hyperbole your assumed reasons why other people dislike it despite them saying nothing of the sort.
As for the gold sellers, this doesn't affect them. They are often using hacked and stolen accounts, and they will cycle through them as necessary to achieve their goals. Historically, they have a pattern of identifying the best mid-level drop/resource or mid-level grind spot to maximize their return.
Those bots are 'playing' for a different reason than you are. They are 'playing' differently than you are. They are not restricted by the same caps that you are restricted by. The most significant difference is that their characters and accounts are disposable to them.
What "acceptance of a paywall" are you talking about ? Which "paywall" am I accepting here and "rejecting" elsewhere ?
...
I have a problem with F2P games that usually force me to pay for cosmetic items which are often 90% Cash Shop exclusives.
...but you don't have a problem with the LP system, a system modeled after the energy systems of Facebook and browser games - a paywall for a particular playstyle. Since it doesn't affect your playstyle, you see it as just another rule of the game, whereas a paywall between you and the content for your playstyle is, as you made clear in the linked post, a deal breaker.
You accept it here, but reject it - dread it, even - in games where your personal fun is walled off.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
XL wanted to create a system with the following criteria:
1. Best gear in game is player made
2. All crafted gear is tradeable
3. NO item decay
4. Keep best in slot gear extremely rare even after the game has been running for years
5. Controlled economy
Love it or hate it - the system works, best in slot gear is very VERY rare in ArcheAge, it's like a legendary achievement once you get a single piece.
Guess what - LP system achieved the above - I always thought the only answer is "gear decay" - it's not the only way.
Of course it works. The system is designed to limit a players reward for playing the game, and any system that does something similar will work.
If they wanted to implement a crafting/questing/looting system with high failure rates it would achieve the same thing and players could do those activities until their eyeballs bleed.
I played Archage in Korea, Russia and now Western version and I really do not like it. The opinion is personal and nothing to do with PvP or ganking etc.
However LP suck, you have to use LP just to open some of the mob drops and that is to me pure stupidity.
Those of you that enjoy AA good luck and I really hope you have a long enjoyable play time but as has been mentioned in quite a few posts there is a lot wrong with the game, there is hidden P2W and all the usual eastern grind coupled with the supposed F2P fast lvling BS.
For me AA is just another typical F2P with a few interesting twists that as usual do not keep your interest very long.
As for LP being an "artificial" barrier, all the rules in any MMO are "artificial barriers". They usually exist to regulate game play in a way that the game designer intended. It's not unusual for players to refer to the rules as "stupid" when they don't like the rules.
There is a significant difference between mechanics and monetization. The issue people have isn't that the rules are a barrier to their gameplay, it's that cash is a barrier to their gameplay. You expressed this same concern when awaiting Wildstar, so I'm not getting your lack of understanding/empathy here.
You don't see the difference between my complaint regarding "usual Cash Shop monetization strategies" and the situation in AA ? Quite simply then, in AA my sub gets me what I want, whereas in most F2P games that is not the case. Hence no complaints about AA in that regard.
I take issue with the fact that many people are accusing the game design of being purely a money-grab. They refuse to acknowledge that it could be strongly motivated by the need to curb goldsellers, which would be rampant in AA if the F2P accounts had free access to everything. These curbs are only effective if backed by a dedicated publisher who monitors and polices game activity, which does not appear to be the case in Russia (?).
The most common complaint hinges on the fact that players can't do stuff "fast enough". They are frustrated and angry because they can't powerlevel their crafting professions to 70K in the first week after launch. That is the "modern way" in the west, and any game that dares to run against that expectation is immediately labeled as a "monumental asian grinder"...
There is no difference other than your personal acceptance of a paywall here and rejection of it elsewhere. It doesn't impact how you want to play, there you find it agreeable, citing with great hyperbole your assumed reasons why other people dislike it despite them saying nothing of the sort.
As for the gold sellers, this doesn't affect them. They are often using hacked and stolen accounts, and they will cycle through them as necessary to achieve their goals. Historically, they have a pattern of identifying the best mid-level drop/resource or mid-level grind spot to maximize their return.
Those bots are 'playing' for a different reason than you are. They are 'playing' differently than you are. They are not restricted by the same caps that you are restricted by. The most significant difference is that their characters and accounts are disposable to them.
What "acceptance of a paywall" are you talking about ? Which "paywall" am I accepting here and "rejecting" elsewhere ?
...
I have a problem with F2P games that usually force me to pay for cosmetic items which are often 90% Cash Shop exclusives.
...but you don't have a problem with the LP system, a system modeled after the energy systems of Facebook and browser games - a paywall for a particular playstyle. Since it doesn't affect your playstyle, you see it as just another rule of the game, whereas a paywall between you and the content for your playstyle is, as you made clear in the linked post, a deal breaker.
You accept it here, but reject it - dread it, even - in games where your personal fun is walled off.
As for LP being an "artificial" barrier, all the rules in any MMO are "artificial barriers". They usually exist to regulate game play in a way that the game designer intended. It's not unusual for players to refer to the rules as "stupid" when they don't like the rules.
There is a significant difference between mechanics and monetization. The issue people have isn't that the rules are a barrier to their gameplay, it's that cash is a barrier to their gameplay. You expressed this same concern when awaiting Wildstar, so I'm not getting your lack of understanding/empathy here.
You don't see the difference between my complaint regarding "usual Cash Shop monetization strategies" and the situation in AA ? Quite simply then, in AA my sub gets me what I want, whereas in most F2P games that is not the case. Hence no complaints about AA in that regard.
I take issue with the fact that many people are accusing the game design of being purely a money-grab. They refuse to acknowledge that it could be strongly motivated by the need to curb goldsellers, which would be rampant in AA if the F2P accounts had free access to everything. These curbs are only effective if backed by a dedicated publisher who monitors and polices game activity, which does not appear to be the case in Russia (?).
The most common complaint hinges on the fact that players can't do stuff "fast enough". They are frustrated and angry because they can't powerlevel their crafting professions to 70K in the first week after launch. That is the "modern way" in the west, and any game that dares to run against that expectation is immediately labeled as a "monumental asian grinder"...
There is no difference other than your personal acceptance of a paywall here and rejection of it elsewhere. It doesn't impact how you want to play, there you find it agreeable, citing with great hyperbole your assumed reasons why other people dislike it despite them saying nothing of the sort.
As for the gold sellers, this doesn't affect them. They are often using hacked and stolen accounts, and they will cycle through them as necessary to achieve their goals. Historically, they have a pattern of identifying the best mid-level drop/resource or mid-level grind spot to maximize their return.
Those bots are 'playing' for a different reason than you are. They are 'playing' differently than you are. They are not restricted by the same caps that you are restricted by. The most significant difference is that their characters and accounts are disposable to them.
What "acceptance of a paywall" are you talking about ? Which "paywall" am I accepting here and "rejecting" elsewhere ?
...
I have a problem with F2P games that usually force me to pay for cosmetic items which are often 90% Cash Shop exclusives.
...but you don't have a problem with the LP system, a system modeled after the energy systems of Facebook and browser games - a paywall for a particular playstyle. Since it doesn't affect your playstyle, you see it as just another rule of the game, whereas a paywall between you and the content for your playstyle is, as you made clear in the linked post, a deal breaker.
You accept it here, but reject it - dread it, even - in games where your personal fun is walled off.
Actually I'd say AA is closer to the initial version of Spiral Knight's application of the energy system (donno if it changed or if the game is still around as it's been years since I played it).
To those that say it is greed: Nope, it is just a system to curb gold sellers and while it is hostile to a good portion of the playerbase that same playerbase is the one most likely to then bitch about the open world PVP aspect as they want a WoW-type experience where they can do what they like disregarding lore, bending game rules to the limit and being assholes to others for their own benefit ( count your lucky stars you've never been ghosted by such individuals, I only played WoW a month back in 2011 and it was enough to make me want to play EVE another full 3 years afterward ).
To those saying it is pay to win: Go play Gunbound for a few months and then look at their item shop. That is a P2W game and and I am a crafter/solo centric player (took me 2 long years in EVE to build my skillset to be able to basically do whatever I want from fighting in tech 3 cruisers to building titans at optimal speed and wastage) so you can bet I will bump into the issue of LP especially as I do single characters only so you now know why it took me 2 long years of sidegrading in EVE (single character) and I do not plan on having more than one character in Archeage period (one server, one character, done, not one each server). Does the system make it more tedious to be a crafter? Sure but it also helps single out those dedicated to doing it and those that want to do it as a hobby. Will LP pots and patron help those dedicated in their speed? Sure, is that pay to win? Can they craft anything I could not on a slow burn? Is there something in the cash shop which can only be bought with $, never traded and allows you to make something superior to anything possible in-game? Is there any unique schematics the first x amount of crafters get per server? No? Then you lads need to learn the difference between making something difficult and making something impossible, may take me half a year more than the patrons and LP pot poppers but really what's the difference? They will have a market for their wares? So? A good crafter is a good crafter, ply your trade, do your work well and someone will notice.
To those who say it is stupid for the loot rewards which require LP to identify or open: Parity between pursuits, no playstyle should have a superior run of it versus another. A crafter invests LP to make items, you invest LP to redeem your loot (sounds wrong? How many identified magical/rare/unique items did you get in Diablo 2? Path of Exile? Divinity Original Sin? Same concept, yes it may sound wrong to the newer generation that is used to getting everything on a platter after the fight *cough/wow-kiddies/cough* but tough, you adapt or you move on).
Oh and to the suggestion of removing LP and just making impossible gear grind via wastage (fail states): No thanks... I rather not waste 15 +11 blades trying to get +12 and not getting one and nothing to salvage either ( Lineage 2 vanilla ).
Comments
I cannot express how happy i am with Archeage design choices o/
So many haters and trolls wont be playing this mmo that i am jumping of joy o/
And still it managed to reach spot 5 and 6 on best selling games in Steam and no idea how many people bought it directly from Trion o/
Labor points is the best thing ever created in Archeage o/
Servers were packed in closed beta and man i cannot wait till its going to be released o/
And pay to win ? i have not found it in Archeage....i tried to but i saw these labor potions with big cooldowns account wide and tought hmm i dont need those as patron o/
Totaly love XLGames / Trion and the way this mmo is shaping up o/
Only took a decade or so to get something like this but well worth the wait o/
There is no difference other than your personal acceptance of a paywall here and rejection of it elsewhere. It doesn't impact how you want to play, there you find it agreeable, citing with great hyperbole your assumed reasons why other people dislike it despite them saying nothing of the sort.
As for the gold sellers, this doesn't affect them. They are often using hacked and stolen accounts, and they will cycle through them as necessary to achieve their goals. Historically, they have a pattern of identifying the best mid-level drop/resource or mid-level grind spot to maximize their return.
Those bots are 'playing' for a different reason than you are. They are 'playing' differently than you are. They are not restricted by the same caps that you are restricted by. The most significant difference is that their characters and accounts are disposable to them.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Neither of us are arguing otherwise. I was using his post to illustrate how many people are against free to play when it affects their personal playstyle, but do a 180 on their view of the payment model, often with derision and reproach, when it affects someone else's.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The labor points act as a stupid filter. Stupid people hate labor points because it forces them to think and make decisions. When they make the wrong ones they get disgusted, blame the game then leave the game. I love the labor points just for that reason
I miss DAoC
Add Labor Point consumption on a per-kill basis for any PVP activities, so that LP is then balanced for all playstyles.
THEN we shall see the true whiners surface.
Sure we're strapped down and our leg room is limited without paying a cent, but it has some fun elements that is accessable to everyone, like being apart of a guild, and PVPing. ;D and boats and even swimming!
You can swim! ;D! - Smile & Have Fun!
This is an Asian grinder, why is this even a surprise?
They gate something to make you run to the cash shop...
The big boosters of AA make this game out to be something "new and innovative" and all the other BS to hype some people into playing and make themselves feel better about laying down $150 for alpha access. It's not.
All it is is the same old grinder in a shiny new package. (And the shiny is already coming off.)
This "debate" over whether LP potions is P2W is extremely simple to solve. Btw: it is.
First, I am going to define what I believe the common agreed upon definition of P2W is: the ability to purchase an item with real world money that would allow a player to complete a task - whether it's crafting, leveling, etc - faster than a player who does not purchase the same item.
Whenever you pay real world money, in order to do something faster than a player who does not pay real world money, your game is PAY TO WIN. It's as simple as that.
To make it even simpler: a non-pay-to-win game will have cosmetic items for sale and 0 items that directly affect game play.
So, it's MORE THAN CLEAR a game that sells a resource which is used for nearly everything a player does - for real world money - is a game that is P2W.
Now, what Archeage does to it's subscription players is even worse. In fact, it's only a glorified subscription since you are still handicapped by the contents of your wallet/bank account. A subscription based player in Archeage, that does not purchase LP Pots on the real money market, will NEVER have as much LP as a person who pays both a subscription and then drops further money on a LP Pot. What is even worse than that is that a F2P player who pays for LP Pots can get more LP in a single day than a subscription player alone. Way to support those who support you XL!
So, in order to maximize your efficiency, you have to pay for the subscription monthly and then drop more money on the LP pot with it's 12 HR cooldown. I'm guessing you have to buy each pot individually too which makes it a recurring cost if you are serious about getting the most out of the game. To not make the most out of the game, you are accepting time sinks that are mitigated by cash. "Need 2k LP to finish that boat but don't want to wait nearly a full day to recoup the LP? That's OK...just give us MONEY!!!"
You may be fine with subscription player A paying more than subscription player B in order to get things done faster. However, don't re-define a word because you like a game. That's disingenuous.
Simple Math:
F2P player: (24 in game hours since regen is only in game) = 1440 LP total
F2P player + LP Pots: 24 In game hours = 5440 (1440 LP + 2K pot X2)
Subscription player (out of game hours at 5 LP every 5 minutes) = 1440
Subscription player (in game hours AT 10 LP every 5 minutes) = 2880
Subscription player with LP Pot (in game since you can't use Pot out of game) = 6880
Now...if the game was proper F2P NO player could pay money to get things done faster than another player. There are plenty of F2P games that only sell cosmetic items and do just fine. As we can clearly see, this game is NOT a pure F2P game.
If the game was a proper subscription based game, then no player could pay more money to get something faster than someone only paying their monthly subscription (think WoW or FF14: ARR)...this clearly isn't the case since a player can pay a sub and then buy in the cash shop and get things done faster. WoW is going to sell lvl 90 character which is the most egregious form of P2W IMHO.
If the game was a proper subscription/F2P game, a F2P player could only pay real world money to get things done as fast - but never faster - than a subscription based player. The entire point would be for someone who plays casually and doesn't want to drop money for a sub when they are not playing but would like to not be handicapped when they are playing and is willing to pay piecemeal. That is a WONDERFUL idea...but it's clearly not how this game works.
If this game was P2W, a player could pay real world money to get things done faster than another player: whether F2P or Subscription.
Now, let's see:
F2P with LP Pot = faster than F2P AND Subscription player (shameful that F2P player can pay to get things done than someone who is consistently supporting the game with a monthly sub)
Subscription = faster than F2P but NOT faster than F2P with LP Pots
Subscription with LP Pot = Faster than Subscription, F2p with LP Pot, and F2P
Yup...the game fits the widely agreed upon definition of a Pay-to-Win game. Sorry for the long read, but I think it's important to have a common agreed upon definition and to be honest with ourselves; even when we are defending something we like.
Call a spade a spade.
all MMO's are grinders by definition. At least AA makes the grind fun
I miss DAoC
Grind is just that, a grind. Just because you put a pretty wrapper on it doesn't make it less tedious. It actually points out the tedium even more.
I do not quite agree with this statement.
It all depends on what you do in those hrs of playtime. I can burn through 5k labor gathering in day playing with 20/5min in alpha.
Gathering Mining/logging is alot of labor. 1 trade pack is 120 labor (make and trade in) which is about an hour of playtime.
Item drop in northlands 1 princess chest is 100labor. 1 Unidentified armor is also 100 labor. (you will get more then 1 an hour unless you are bad at farming)
If you are using labor not in your garden you will run out as a patron without much difficulty. The gardening labor cost seems lower then everything else.
If you gather/farm I say 2-3hrs a day. You will probably have to buy potions even as a patron. If you are not a patron I do not know how you even play this game to begin with. Potions will not even be enough.
Either way if you focus alot of time (3+hrs a day) into the economy and not the PvP and Questing. You will have to buy potions.
If you want to play hardcore full time I would expect to spend 25-30 a month on Archeage. Which is typical in most f2p mmo honestly. Game is awsome, but this labor cash grab is my main gripe. F2P mode labor I am fine with 5/5, but patron needs to be 20/5 as in alpha at the least, and probably 10/5 offline.
And by in large, the Asian grinders are in a class all their own. (And they are, far, far more mindless grind than most Western competitors.)
Thus, the term.
When doing statistics, you need to remove all possible outliers from the equation (amount of time played, percieved goals of each player, etc) and test around that.
So, to make it easier, let's look at it a different way.
There are three players, each one of them is starting with 0 LP, and each one wants to build a 2k LP boat (hypothetical).
Player A: F2P
Player B: Subscription player
Player C: cash shop
it would take player A: 33.3333333 hours, of in game time, to make the 2k to build the boat
it would take player B: 16.6666666 hours, of in game time, to make the 2k to build the boat
it would take player C: as fast as it takes to buy an LP pot and use it to build the boat
When we test for the different payment schemes, where all other things are equal (as it should be when testing this), we see that the LP Pots will always give an advantage and that = P2W.
A Grind by any other name is just a grind. This IS an Asian Grinder, BTW. XL Games is a Korean company, who is the developer. Trion is just the publisher.
What "acceptance of a paywall" are you talking about ? Which "paywall" am I accepting here and "rejecting" elsewhere ?
I have no problem paying monthly subs in any MMO. I have never complained about monthly subs. I have a problem with F2P games that usually force me to pay for cosmetic items which are often 90% Cash Shop exclusives.
I have not "changed my tune" on this matter or "given AA a free pass" or whatever you are trying to imply.
As for how effective the design will be in impeding goldseller activity, we shall have to see what happens after launch. I do believe that the design was partly motivated by this.
It also acts as a brake on the speed of the economy, which is probably the most important reason for its existence. Perhaps the design works better in Korea, but there's no way XLGames will fundamentally change the design for the "western version".
My only concern is how long can I mine/farm/fish/etc. in one sitting before I run out of LP.
I've heard that after 1-2 hours of fishing, give or take, you've ran through your LP, even as a patron. That bothers me because, from what I know (I haven't got to fish yet, but I did mine a bit) you get a fair bit of EXP from non-combat activities. I'd love to be able to level, at least semi-efficiently, by doing nothing but non-combat activities, but with the LP system, I'm not sure that it's viable.
Unless the game was made so you can't do that, in which case, the issue lies with me.
Some people consider crafting to be a mindless grind... others think raiding is. The difference is, one they consider fun, the other, they don't. In other words, if you like crafting, there can be no grind... it's all part of the crafting. Same would be true for raiding. All MMORPGS are grinds. There is not a single task in them that doesn't have it. The grind is only painful if you don't enjoy doing the task at all... in other words, you don't like that part of the game. So if crafting seems like a grind because it can't all be done in one sitting, then, perhaps you really aren't a fan of crafting. Same is true for raiding, PVP, exploring, whatever. There is NO GRIND if you find it fun. You're oblivious to it. If you can feel it and see it, you aren't really interested in it and are using the grind as an excuse... denial. Crafting isn't for everyone... I know it isn't for me. I do what I enjoy in these games and I don't do what I don't enjoy. If the game isn't enjoyable at all, I don't play it. There are other games and there is real life... endless possibilities.
...but you don't have a problem with the LP system, a system modeled after the energy systems of Facebook and browser games - a paywall for a particular playstyle. Since it doesn't affect your playstyle, you see it as just another rule of the game, whereas a paywall between you and the content for your playstyle is, as you made clear in the linked post, a deal breaker.
You accept it here, but reject it - dread it, even - in games where your personal fun is walled off.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Of course it works. The system is designed to limit a players reward for playing the game, and any system that does something similar will work.
If they wanted to implement a crafting/questing/looting system with high failure rates it would achieve the same thing and players could do those activities until their eyeballs bleed.
I played Archage in Korea, Russia and now Western version and I really do not like it. The opinion is personal and nothing to do with PvP or ganking etc.
However LP suck, you have to use LP just to open some of the mob drops and that is to me pure stupidity.
Those of you that enjoy AA good luck and I really hope you have a long enjoyable play time but as has been mentioned in quite a few posts there is a lot wrong with the game, there is hidden P2W and all the usual eastern grind coupled with the supposed F2P fast lvling BS.
For me AA is just another typical F2P with a few interesting twists that as usual do not keep your interest very long.
I love this cascade effect.
Ahh, the good old days of Farmville!
Actually I'd say AA is closer to the initial version of Spiral Knight's application of the energy system (donno if it changed or if the game is still around as it's been years since I played it).
To those that say it is greed: Nope, it is just a system to curb gold sellers and while it is hostile to a good portion of the playerbase that same playerbase is the one most likely to then bitch about the open world PVP aspect as they want a WoW-type experience where they can do what they like disregarding lore, bending game rules to the limit and being assholes to others for their own benefit ( count your lucky stars you've never been ghosted by such individuals, I only played WoW a month back in 2011 and it was enough to make me want to play EVE another full 3 years afterward ).
To those saying it is pay to win: Go play Gunbound for a few months and then look at their item shop. That is a P2W game and and I am a crafter/solo centric player (took me 2 long years in EVE to build my skillset to be able to basically do whatever I want from fighting in tech 3 cruisers to building titans at optimal speed and wastage) so you can bet I will bump into the issue of LP especially as I do single characters only so you now know why it took me 2 long years of sidegrading in EVE (single character) and I do not plan on having more than one character in Archeage period (one server, one character, done, not one each server). Does the system make it more tedious to be a crafter? Sure but it also helps single out those dedicated to doing it and those that want to do it as a hobby. Will LP pots and patron help those dedicated in their speed? Sure, is that pay to win? Can they craft anything I could not on a slow burn? Is there something in the cash shop which can only be bought with $, never traded and allows you to make something superior to anything possible in-game? Is there any unique schematics the first x amount of crafters get per server? No? Then you lads need to learn the difference between making something difficult and making something impossible, may take me half a year more than the patrons and LP pot poppers but really what's the difference? They will have a market for their wares? So? A good crafter is a good crafter, ply your trade, do your work well and someone will notice.
To those who say it is stupid for the loot rewards which require LP to identify or open: Parity between pursuits, no playstyle should have a superior run of it versus another. A crafter invests LP to make items, you invest LP to redeem your loot (sounds wrong? How many identified magical/rare/unique items did you get in Diablo 2? Path of Exile? Divinity Original Sin? Same concept, yes it may sound wrong to the newer generation that is used to getting everything on a platter after the fight *cough/wow-kiddies/cough* but tough, you adapt or you move on).
Oh and to the suggestion of removing LP and just making impossible gear grind via wastage (fail states): No thanks... I rather not waste 15 +11 blades trying to get +12 and not getting one and nothing to salvage either ( Lineage 2 vanilla ).