Originally posted by Falconoffury How about the empty servers of AC2?
The servers are not empty. Just the low level areas. The populations feel like they a have been rising since the expansion pack. I'm sick and tired of people slamming AC2 who never even tried the game.
Excuse me, I beta'd AC2 and I played it when it went live for 4 months. Also, the word from many current players is that the servers have not seen any kind of growth from the expansion. Maybe a a couple of dozen new players - but that is does not make the game on the upswing for pops.
Just go read the AC2 message boards over at VN. If you do not believe me.
Thinman, I do agree completely. Summer is coming and I'm gonna start going to the gym more and doing more stuff with the gf. I think maybe we've had too much of a good thing at times and we're spoiled rotten by all these games. Although I tried SWG last night and had a blast I think when I'm more casual with the games i.e. log in for a bit have some fun and then go have dinner instead of playing every waking moment, I seem to enjoy my time more on them. Too much of a good thing. Yes thats what it is.
Originally posted by anarchyart Thinman, I do agree completely. Summer is coming and I'm gonna start going to the gym more and doing more stuff with the gf. I think maybe we've had too much of a good thing at times and we're spoiled rotten by all these games. Although I tried SWG last night and had a blast I think when I'm more casual with the games i.e. log in for a bit have some fun and then go have dinner instead of playing every waking moment, I seem to enjoy my time more on them. Too much of a good thing. Yes thats what it is.
I think you're right.. If you're able to keep it as a now and then kind of thing it can be worthwhile.. It's just a matter of not letting it become a crutch in a sense.
MMOGs are especially easy to do this with, because they're a sort of a world outside the real world. Eventually, the real world comes knocking, though.
I don't think it's really a problem of "it was once new"; it's more a problem that the new games are utterly dumbed down and boring. The corporations are trying to get more for less, which is totally opposite of what makes a long-living mmog. To have a game you want to play for a long time, you have to have very creative, dynamic content and different things to do. Older games have that because they were driven by the devs, but new games are driven by the executives. That's the difference.
Even new indie games are missing the mark. They try to substitute development time with crap, and call it good because the big boys are doing the same things. That's not good development.
New games without dungeons. This is really a kick in the balls. The dungeons of a game are where most of the world building time is spent, so it's no wonder this is one of the places the axe falls. I really don't understand the thinking behind developers who think people are going to be satisified without dungeons (in mainly pve games). Dungeons are what makes our hearts pound, and brings out the most in us explorers. It's the heart of pnp fantasy gaming. Dungeons are where the world differentiates. The overland can be all very similar because the dungeons are the places where you find new and wonderous things that differentiate the real world (the overland and cities) from the ancient and mysterious places (dungeons and places you "aren't supposed to go!").
Games without dungeons quickly get dull in part because it is tireing to look at the same landscape over and over even if that landscape changes slightly. Part of the fun is from trying to figure out the maze of the dungeon and where things are, where the safe spots are and where the monsters are hiding, etc. Overland worlds are WAY too simple to keep our attention.
There are countless more examples of how newer games have diluted the industry through cost-cutting development, but what the executives and newer players don't understand is that cutting those corners are what kills the game. Taking away dungeons and travel, etc takes the adventure out of the adventure game. There are at least a few things that form the base of an mmorpg, and these two things are in that group. You cannot remove them without severly gimping the game.
For a long time many, myself included, were sick of companies creating EQ clones, but now I rather wish a company could make a game that would duplicate the game I loved from it's initial launch. Even though I felt the game was lacking in a LOT of areas (pvp, housing, gimped crafting system), nobody can deny that EQ was the king of traveling and dungeoning (before SOE). I was amazed over and over each time I moved on to a new area or dungeon. Travelling created a sense of distance and rarity, seclusion. It formed geographical communities within the game, which made it feel so much like a real world. That was a big chunk of the enchantment of that game. It's a big chunk of the enchantment of any mmorpg.
I think there are enough of us who currently play no mmog due to a lack of quality to deduce that the execs are running the industry into the ground, obviously not from a monitary point of view (seeing as so many still buy the new crap), but a gaming point of view. If a company would make a game with the seemingly basic aspects that create a great game, and implemented them the way most of us agree are the most fun, all of us jaded old timers would be enthralled again. Sure, as we get older we have less time to play, but we all know that a superior new release would bring us right back into that old battle of virtual vs reality.
*edited for spelling
nethervoid - Est. '97 [UO|EQ|SB|SWG|PS|HZ|EVE|NWN|WoW|VG|DF|AQW|DN|SWTOR|Dofus|SotA|BDO|AO|NW|LA] - Currently Playing EQ1 20k+ subs YouTube Gaming channel
Gahh.. So many people just like myself. Im am so tired of wasteing my time and money on shallow games. I find myself unable to make an identity for my characters. I feel so.. pathetic in a world where i should feel like the coolest person every(even if im not).
I find that with every "newer" game im playing I have a harder time finding people to really bond with. I feel alone in a game full of other people. I think this was my biggest problem with WoW, Soloing was the way to do things. Thats not what an MMO is all about. You wanted decent EXP you soloed. That is not why i play MMO.
I am one who things community is almost everything in a game. I would be happy with no Lvls what so ever and all roleplaying. I played Neverwinter Nights for almost 2 years and that is the game that stands out in my mind the most. I had a sense of belonging, like i was something great. (I was a high ranking guard on the server i played on.) I just cant seem to find a way to feel unique in the new games.
I really think its a lack of content and attention to the fact that people want to be different, they want to look different from everyone else, not have the same armour at lvl10, then lvl20 then lvl30.
I think also that the intensity of combat has been toned down greatly. What happened to a death penelty? People complained about losing exp when they died. Well I for one think that if you die and have nothing to lose why try to live? Honestly, why not try and go after that person you know you cant beat, or that mob that will smite you down with one word. I cant remember the last time my heart started pounding with excitement when i was scared of dying. Now its bam dead, oh well respawn, nothing lost big deal.
Whats going to save the industry? Honestly i dont know, but as far as im concerend coming out with the same crap they have been isnt going to do it. CoH? same crap different setting, WoW? Same crap same setting, brought alot of good features together, but blew it in community. Guild Wars, this one is a toss up for me. It doesnt have the community i want, but its keeping me slightly intertained at the moment.
Something needs to be done, someone needs to take a chance and not try and bank on the same crap. Honestly, i hope i get to the point where im developing these games and i can be the one that brings something new to the plate, because i am so sick of the same junk.
I want the same feeling i had back when i played NWN, i want that feeling of wonder and excitement back from the first MMO i ever played (happens to be AC2 =P) I know that if this same crap keeps coming out, its not going to make the market any better. We advance by the people who have the balls to step out and be different, even if people call them crazy. Something needs to change, and soon.
Well some of that might have been frustration, but i think i got most of my point across. Maybe we should all vote on a game and meet in there. That would make atleast our spot of the game a good community, right? heh just a though.. maybe all start a guild together.
Community may be quite important to you and to many peoples. But to me, quite honestly, it is the least of the aspect that matter in the game. If the game is well built, I would be perfectly happy surrounded by the nicest or the worst community you can think off.
Reason: I am an achiever, not a little, but completely. I dont see any ''achievement'' possible with a community, however I see a lot of restrictions and artificial limitations that are not ''achievements'' with the same community.
Dont read me wrong. I dont hate communities. They are not why I play the game. Morrowind, solo wise, have a few hundred hours of gameplay...any MMORPG have more ''achievements'' possible.
See, not 1 single RPG offer me the achievement table ANY mmorpg have...and you wonder why I am not in single RPG? I would gladly play a single RPG that offer me all this achievement. However, can I compete in a friendly way with others? I dont mind losing and achieving something later, but I like the thrill to try to be as good as possible, as long as it is what I am doing(if I lose because I dont raid or PvP, I lose all interest and the game is thrown on the side right now, as a pure waste of time with no interest in any form, since I dont raid or PvP and no, you wont make me do either unless they are completely optional and something I dont need in order to be a good soloer or grouper)
Again, any community would suit me. As long as the game is nice and as instanced as I need to...you can take ANY community and put it on any current MMORPG, I would not last more then a week before I leave outraged.
I am an achiever. Community is irrelevant, as long as it exist and cant harm my achievement(or make it look irrelevant by having bette rewards in others activities I would judge un-achieving, like raiding or PvP for exemple in my views at least).
Community must matter to many persons. But to me? Sorry, wrong adress, try my neighbor! Dont read me wrong, I will improve any community a little, prolly not as much as peoples would want me to, peoples always want more then what you offer, including myself toward silly devs! However there is a minimum peoples need to reach for the majority to be happy...and self relevant rewarding system that is not subject to the community is a MUST for any serious achiever. The needs of the many pass by the needs of every individual, we are in America.
It is possible to please a casual and a hardcore, it just need more depht then 1 overall clumsy system can offer. If the hardcore make the casuals feels irrelevants by what they do, if the casuals are envious of hardcores in casual areas or if the casual are not envious of hardcores in hardcore areas, then you have a problem. A casual that focus in Crushbone should be happy and envy nobody, if anything, some hardcore should envy him should they enter Crushbone. However, the same casual need to envy the hardcore when they enter the hardcore area...and so on everything apply to every topic. Soloers deserve solo uberness. It is not an option if a MMORPG is to take over the consoles and single RPG ever...and if you want it to be more then an overgrown single player game(which I hope), you need a grouping system that is paralel to the soloing, and a raiding...and much more...specialities! Casuals will focus where they care, folks with little interest can focus only on grouping or only on raiding...and folks like me will focus only on solo and grouping...and some insane folks will focus on everything and try to developp everything, but they would be a rare bread.
Community, to me, is secondary, 10% of my fun...and if the MMORPGs want to keep me away from single RPG, they need a good solo and a good grouping system. Grouping because I actually like to group, and if the community is bad, no troubles, I wont group 99% of the peoples, it is fine with me, I can solo and improve the solo system in the meanwhile...and eventually will get nice group offers. I may be mostly a grouper, but I need to do something while I am not grouped for any reason...and this something need to be an interesting soloing system that I am motivated in doing and guess what...this soloing system CAN'T make grouping irrelevant or I would be pissed...so you need 2 paralell systems...many ways to do that(and have some trivials links between the 2, mostly in XP bonus form).
Last proof that community is secondary to me: I buy and try more then 50% of the RPG that exist when they are solo game and easily available. I am far from even been able to describe half the MMORPGs. When I read a feature I dislike(like raiding and PvP most of the time), I just discard it, right away. Raiding and PvP are welcome, on their own, not inside the solo or the grouping system, they better be kept on their own, they dont mixt well, not at all.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
If the community does not matter then why bother playing a MMORPG? The whole point of playing with other people is to be with other people. If a Game is based soley on personal acheivements then why bother maki9ng it online? I see your point adn well and good but It sstrikes me that yoou would be happier not even thinking about mmorpgs and stick to the signle player ones since htey are designed to give the player a sense of acheivment. After all it is a bbout the solo experience inb a single player game. The MM aspect of a game implies the need to be part of a community. By seeking only to acheive then you are neglecting the base point of the game which is to play with others.
i've been playing mmorpg's really around 60 hours a week since my first one about 6 years go, i have very addictive personality and these games addict just about everyone. added together thats not a great thing, i guess im just burnt out on them. i just got my 5th char to 20 on guild wars(deleted one to do it), tried eveyrone other mmorpg out there basicly.and i cant just pvp, after about 100 battles even that is not exciting anymore. the few i didnt try i dont want to start becasue i dont want to waste so much time on something i know is jsut to 'hold me over'. (i think alot of people having this problem at this time)
i suggest do something a little different , let your mmorpg craving grow again. i wont say go outside like most people do, becasue really..most people irl are asshats and i dont condone socializing with them. dig out your n64 and beat zelda or mario 64 again or something. find a different game for awhile, i just started shot-online . its not really a mmorpg its a golf game where you lvl, and im not even a golfer irl but its pretty fun and will keep me around for a bit.
there are a few very promising games on the horizon, something different like roma victor. some small companies promising new things like irth and trials of ascension(honestly i losing hope in dnl, and i followed it for couple years now), hoping to pull a mythic. jsut try something else for awhile and pray one of these delivers a full mmorpg world that you enjoy, not just simple quests and 99% killing things to lvl.
Comments
The servers are not empty. Just the low level areas. The populations feel like they a have been rising since the expansion pack. I'm sick and tired of people slamming AC2 who never even tried the game.
Excuse me, I beta'd AC2 and I played it when it went live for 4 months. Also, the word from many current players is that the servers have not seen any kind of growth from the expansion. Maybe a a couple of dozen new players - but that is does not make the game on the upswing for pops.
Just go read the AC2 message boards over at VN. If you do not believe me.
http://vnboards.ign.com/AC2_General_Board/b5427/
I think you're right.. If you're able to keep it as a now and then kind of thing it can be worthwhile.. It's just a matter of not letting it become a crutch in a sense.
MMOGs are especially easy to do this with, because they're a sort of a world outside the real world. Eventually, the real world comes knocking, though.
_______________________________________________________________________
Looking forward (cautiously) to: Age of Conan, Dark Solstice, Armada Online.
Will soon try: Guild Wars
Overall: Amazed and bewhildered at the current sad state of the artform of gaming.
I don't think it's really a problem of "it was once new"; it's more a problem that the new games are utterly dumbed down and boring. The corporations are trying to get more for less, which is totally opposite of what makes a long-living mmog. To have a game you want to play for a long time, you have to have very creative, dynamic content and different things to do. Older games have that because they were driven by the devs, but new games are driven by the executives. That's the difference.
Even new indie games are missing the mark. They try to substitute development time with crap, and call it good because the big boys are doing the same things. That's not good development.
New games without dungeons. This is really a kick in the balls. The dungeons of a game are where most of the world building time is spent, so it's no wonder this is one of the places the axe falls. I really don't understand the thinking behind developers who think people are going to be satisified without dungeons (in mainly pve games). Dungeons are what makes our hearts pound, and brings out the most in us explorers. It's the heart of pnp fantasy gaming. Dungeons are where the world differentiates. The overland can be all very similar because the dungeons are the places where you find new and wonderous things that differentiate the real world (the overland and cities) from the ancient and mysterious places (dungeons and places you "aren't supposed to go!").
Games without dungeons quickly get dull in part because it is tireing to look at the same landscape over and over even if that landscape changes slightly. Part of the fun is from trying to figure out the maze of the dungeon and where things are, where the safe spots are and where the monsters are hiding, etc. Overland worlds are WAY too simple to keep our attention.
There are countless more examples of how newer games have diluted the industry through cost-cutting development, but what the executives and newer players don't understand is that cutting those corners are what kills the game. Taking away dungeons and travel, etc takes the adventure out of the adventure game. There are at least a few things that form the base of an mmorpg, and these two things are in that group. You cannot remove them without severly gimping the game.
For a long time many, myself included, were sick of companies creating EQ clones, but now I rather wish a company could make a game that would duplicate the game I loved from it's initial launch. Even though I felt the game was lacking in a LOT of areas (pvp, housing, gimped crafting system), nobody can deny that EQ was the king of traveling and dungeoning (before SOE). I was amazed over and over each time I moved on to a new area or dungeon. Travelling created a sense of distance and rarity, seclusion. It formed geographical communities within the game, which made it feel so much like a real world. That was a big chunk of the enchantment of that game. It's a big chunk of the enchantment of any mmorpg.
I think there are enough of us who currently play no mmog due to a lack of quality to deduce that the execs are running the industry into the ground, obviously not from a monitary point of view (seeing as so many still buy the new crap), but a gaming point of view. If a company would make a game with the seemingly basic aspects that create a great game, and implemented them the way most of us agree are the most fun, all of us jaded old timers would be enthralled again. Sure, as we get older we have less time to play, but we all know that a superior new release would bring us right back into that old battle of virtual vs reality.
*edited for spelling
nethervoid - Est. '97
[UO|EQ|SB|SWG|PS|HZ|EVE|NWN|WoW|VG|DF|AQW|DN|SWTOR|Dofus|SotA|BDO|AO|NW|LA] - Currently Playing EQ1
20k+ subs YouTube Gaming channel
Gahh.. So many people just like myself. Im am so tired of wasteing my time and money on shallow games. I find myself unable to make an identity for my characters. I feel so.. pathetic in a world where i should feel like the coolest person every(even if im not).
I find that with every "newer" game im playing I have a harder time finding people to really bond with. I feel alone in a game full of other people. I think this was my biggest problem with WoW, Soloing was the way to do things. Thats not what an MMO is all about. You wanted decent EXP you soloed. That is not why i play MMO.
I am one who things community is almost everything in a game. I would be happy with no Lvls what so ever and all roleplaying. I played Neverwinter Nights for almost 2 years and that is the game that stands out in my mind the most. I had a sense of belonging, like i was something great. (I was a high ranking guard on the server i played on.) I just cant seem to find a way to feel unique in the new games.
I really think its a lack of content and attention to the fact that people want to be different, they want to look different from everyone else, not have the same armour at lvl10, then lvl20 then lvl30.
I think also that the intensity of combat has been toned down greatly. What happened to a death penelty? People complained about losing exp when they died. Well I for one think that if you die and have nothing to lose why try to live? Honestly, why not try and go after that person you know you cant beat, or that mob that will smite you down with one word. I cant remember the last time my heart started pounding with excitement when i was scared of dying. Now its bam dead, oh well respawn, nothing lost big deal.
Whats going to save the industry? Honestly i dont know, but as far as im concerend coming out with the same crap they have been isnt going to do it. CoH? same crap different setting, WoW? Same crap same setting, brought alot of good features together, but blew it in community. Guild Wars, this one is a toss up for me. It doesnt have the community i want, but its keeping me slightly intertained at the moment.
Something needs to be done, someone needs to take a chance and not try and bank on the same crap. Honestly, i hope i get to the point where im developing these games and i can be the one that brings something new to the plate, because i am so sick of the same junk.
I want the same feeling i had back when i played NWN, i want that feeling of wonder and excitement back from the first MMO i ever played (happens to be AC2 =P) I know that if this same crap keeps coming out, its not going to make the market any better. We advance by the people who have the balls to step out and be different, even if people call them crazy. Something needs to change, and soon.
Teala,
Community may be quite important to you and to many peoples. But to me, quite honestly, it is the least of the aspect that matter in the game. If the game is well built, I would be perfectly happy surrounded by the nicest or the worst community you can think off.
Reason: I am an achiever, not a little, but completely. I dont see any ''achievement'' possible with a community, however I see a lot of restrictions and artificial limitations that are not ''achievements'' with the same community.
Dont read me wrong. I dont hate communities. They are not why I play the game. Morrowind, solo wise, have a few hundred hours of gameplay...any MMORPG have more ''achievements'' possible.
See, not 1 single RPG offer me the achievement table ANY mmorpg have...and you wonder why I am not in single RPG? I would gladly play a single RPG that offer me all this achievement. However, can I compete in a friendly way with others? I dont mind losing and achieving something later, but I like the thrill to try to be as good as possible, as long as it is what I am doing(if I lose because I dont raid or PvP, I lose all interest and the game is thrown on the side right now, as a pure waste of time with no interest in any form, since I dont raid or PvP and no, you wont make me do either unless they are completely optional and something I dont need in order to be a good soloer or grouper)
Again, any community would suit me. As long as the game is nice and as instanced as I need to...you can take ANY community and put it on any current MMORPG, I would not last more then a week before I leave outraged.
I am an achiever. Community is irrelevant, as long as it exist and cant harm my achievement(or make it look irrelevant by having bette rewards in others activities I would judge un-achieving, like raiding or PvP for exemple in my views at least).
Community must matter to many persons. But to me? Sorry, wrong adress, try my neighbor! Dont read me wrong, I will improve any community a little, prolly not as much as peoples would want me to, peoples always want more then what you offer, including myself toward silly devs!
However there is a minimum peoples need to reach for the majority to be happy...and self relevant rewarding system that is not subject to the community is a MUST for any serious achiever. The needs of the many pass by the needs of every individual, we are in America.
It is possible to please a casual and a hardcore, it just need more depht then 1 overall clumsy system can offer. If the hardcore make the casuals feels irrelevants by what they do, if the casuals are envious of hardcores in casual areas or if the casual are not envious of hardcores in hardcore areas, then you have a problem. A casual that focus in Crushbone should be happy and envy nobody, if anything, some hardcore should envy him should they enter Crushbone. However, the same casual need to envy the hardcore when they enter the hardcore area...and so on everything apply to every topic. Soloers deserve solo uberness. It is not an option if a MMORPG is to take over the consoles and single RPG ever...and if you want it to be more then an overgrown single player game(which I hope), you need a grouping system that is paralel to the soloing, and a raiding...and much more...specialities! Casuals will focus where they care, folks with little interest can focus only on grouping or only on raiding...and folks like me will focus only on solo and grouping...and some insane folks will focus on everything and try to developp everything, but they would be a rare bread.
Community, to me, is secondary, 10% of my fun...and if the MMORPGs want to keep me away from single RPG, they need a good solo and a good grouping system. Grouping because I actually like to group, and if the community is bad, no troubles, I wont group 99% of the peoples, it is fine with me, I can solo and improve the solo system in the meanwhile...and eventually will get nice group offers. I may be mostly a grouper, but I need to do something while I am not grouped for any reason...and this something need to be an interesting soloing system that I am motivated in doing and guess what...this soloing system CAN'T make grouping irrelevant or I would be pissed...so you need 2 paralell systems...many ways to do that(and have some trivials links between the 2, mostly in XP bonus form).
Last proof that community is secondary to me: I buy and try more then 50% of the RPG that exist when they are solo game and easily available. I am far from even been able to describe half the MMORPGs. When I read a feature I dislike(like raiding and PvP most of the time), I just discard it, right away. Raiding and PvP are welcome, on their own, not inside the solo or the grouping system, they better be kept on their own, they dont mixt well, not at all.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
If the community does not matter then why bother playing a MMORPG? The whole point of playing with other people is to be with other people. If a Game is based soley on personal acheivements then why bother maki9ng it online? I see your point adn well and good but It sstrikes me that yoou would be happier not even thinking about mmorpgs and stick to the signle player ones since htey are designed to give the player a sense of acheivment. After all it is a bbout the solo experience inb a single player game. The MM aspect of a game implies the need to be part of a community. By seeking only to acheive then you are neglecting the base point of the game which is to play with others.
i've been playing mmorpg's really around 60 hours a week since my first one about 6 years go, i have very addictive personality and these games addict just about everyone. added together thats not a great thing, i guess im just burnt out on them.
i just got my 5th char to 20 on guild wars(deleted one to do it), tried eveyrone other mmorpg out there basicly.and i cant just pvp, after about 100 battles even that is not exciting anymore.
the few i didnt try i dont want to start becasue i dont want to waste so much time on something i know is jsut to 'hold me over'. (i think alot of people having this problem at this time)
i suggest do something a little different , let your mmorpg craving grow again. i wont say go outside like most people do, becasue really..most people irl are asshats and i dont condone socializing with them. dig out your n64 and beat zelda or mario 64 again or something. find a different game for awhile, i just started shot-online . its not really a mmorpg its a golf game where you lvl, and im not even a golfer irl but its pretty fun and will keep me around for a bit.
there are a few very promising games on the horizon, something different like roma victor. some small companies promising new things like irth and trials of ascension(honestly i losing hope in dnl, and i followed it for couple years now), hoping to pull a mythic. jsut try something else for awhile and pray one of these delivers a full mmorpg world that you enjoy, not just simple quests and 99% killing things to lvl.