I also have seen the great divide between "finding your own adventure" and "level fast".
I agree that it is both an issue for any MMO and the type of gamer YOU are. ESO was a letdown for me as well because of the community's chase for quick riches and levels, and the lack of ability to carve your own fun.
I still play WoW for my MMO escape (basically for lack of any other quality options) but only out of desperation to stake a claim in the MMO universe as a good-mannered player with a few fantasy characters that will continue to grow as the game grows.
Carve my own adventure? With the communities in today's theme parks? I guess not... but the future of MMOs is yet to be determined....
"I'm a nerd, and I'm pretty proud of it." - Gilbert, Revenge of the Nerds[1984]
As much as I like the sandbox style of ArcheAge the game has some crippling issues:
1) it's grindy
2) the graphics suck
3) the combat is clunky and not very fun
4) the story sucks
5) f2p with nickel and diming (SW:TOR, archeage, etc...) will always be worse for me. I'd rather pay $15 a month, get a steady stream of content (all the content), and rest knowing everyone is on the same playing field.
Would like to see a western developer try to mimic the style of ArcheAge with more fluid combat and a more enjoyable world/story.
A good article, no doubt on it. Touches one of the major problems in the MMORPG world today. while describing a personal experience and explaining from a personal point of view what has found out playing two completely different games, Kyle unfolds a part of the nowadays big conflict with games and gamers, a conflict that we read daily in the forums and is a very big mess for everyone: the repetitiveness and lack of creative value of companies that are dealing with huge numbers and created but clones of the-one-trick pony success with a different make-up and the surprising feeling that shoots in her mind memories of the times when a lot of different games had their own audience. And no, I will not blame ESO. It's a great game and in a level that any korean grinder will never reach. But the problem is that this korean grinder is trying something different and this is good news because the problem is that no one want to risk a cent in doing it. That said, the fact that a korean chore grinder with a cash shop is bullying a great piece of art made by high talented professionals is a worry, and at the very core of the problem with the industry.... What if a talented and major company with excel in quality decided to risk and create a game that was allowing players feel free and have a full cup of what we often call Sandox? Good news, when there is no alternative that a korean greed company offers something different, but very bad news when the Majors and his creatives and professionals are doing nothing to compete against that sing of the times.
Kyle maybe works at a marketing company, for me is meaningless, he can work where he wants, but one thing goes for certain: He knows the problem, identified it, and written about it in a way that allow us to be informed of what is happening here.
I don't know what you think about all this mess, but I would prefer by large to play an AAA quality title made by a team of outstanding professionals, from a company of proved talent than to be swallowed by another korean kraken that in the end, is just this kind of chore we all know so well, but with a little more freedom of choice in a environment of low quality, greedy intentions and non-existant plus values such as customer service, proper conduct with their community and many more of these things that seem to be a sidekick but are at the center of our way of making and understanding things.
That's all. Thanks. And this thread has been very instructive to learn a lot of things that remain unveiled in the heat of the discussion but that are there and we all can see clearly after a moment of clarity. Or at least in my case.
Now here is morning and should go to start my day, see you later on, I guess the discussion maybe have finished here but the forums will be burning a little bit later. I'm in Europe, so i join the discussions with a strong sensation of jet lag.
so, you think archeage is a better single player game than ESO?
okai
He didn't say that -- he actually very specifically said that Archeage may not be as good a game as ESO, that he was not judging the quality of the game or its systems, just that in one very specific way, Archeage gave him something that ESO did not. It's like my opinion of Fallen Earth -- I had a great time with it, I loved the crafting system, but I couldn't play it for very long for a lot of other reasons. I had similar experiences with Tabula Rasa -- I loved the combat and the base defenses and assaults, but it was, overall, still a horrible unfinished mess.
You can have a good time in a game, and still grow bored with it. And you can like certain aspects of a game that you don't actually enjoy, or after you've stopped enjoying it. What makes one game 'better' than another (a purely subjective term) is NOT any specific aspect, but your overall impression. Some of the best games I've played over the years have been total bugfests. Some of the worst games I've played have been near-perfect in that they did everything they were supposed to, but I just didn't have fun playing them.
A very well written opinion article, in my opinion. In fact it's surprising well written for this site. It is often joked that there are two things you should never argue about in a pub, religion and politics. It could be said that there will be one thing you should never debate on gaming websites -- games.
I really don"t see the need to compare games, and this is another negative dig toward ESO, did the folks at ZOS pee in your cereal or something? That's the problem these days new games cannot have their own identity, it has to be like this or like that.
I tested Archage, ok game when I was playing it I did not even think of any Elder Scrolls Games, but for me I thought AA was just meh, it will have it's fans just like Elder Scrolls, Blizzard and etc etc does. Geez we get it you are not a fan of Elder Scrolls. /facepalm
i never played both games i have unrelenting hate for every elder scrolls after morrowind , becouse of the empty stale world and i didnt even care to see how they would fuck up a mmorpg , but what i can tell from the review and some of the comments is that beth fanboys read titles only its pretty damn clear this is no comparison just praise for AA at how they've done something that hasnt been done since ultima online and runescape even better than they did it and im not talking about current runescape im talking about runescape back in 2000-2003 . yet all beth fanboys can read out from it OMFG THIS GUY COMPARED ESO TO AA what a douchetard how the fuck does this guy dare to do this shit . while its pretty damn clearly explained that the comparison is about the general enjoyment of both games from he's perspective not comparing them as games but how one did the 2006+ mmorpg formula yet the other used the old formula from when mmorpg's were good and not just go kill 20 goblins return and get gold
Actually it does make sense, ESO does not play like an Elder Scrolls game, its a Themepark MMO sure, and it has some of the naming conventions etc usually associated with Elder Scrolls, but thats where it ends.
The trouble is, is that by drawing a comparison with Skyrim, or any other Elder Scrolls game, and pointing out how ESO doesn't capture the spirit even of Elder Scrolls, they try to draw comparisons to Archeage because it has a few game features normally associated with Sandbox games - its a Themepark at heart however, but that isn't really the issue, Archeage no more captures the Elder Scrolls spirit than ESO does, less so even.
The OP could have even argued that Archeage captures the SWG spirit more than SW;TOR does, because it has a few sandbox features, it would still be entirely incorrect, and for the same reasons, just because a game has sandbox features, does not mean it's the same, or in the same spirit of, another game that also has sandbox features, to either a lesser or greater degree. In the same vein you could try to Argue that Eve online captures the spirit of Elder Scrolls more than ESO does, in that it permits free form gameplay without linear progression or area segregation, which is also something that Archeage does not do so the 'sandbox' features in Archeage are not that deeply embedded into the core of the game, but even so, it would be a 'silly' argument to try to make for obvious reasons.
But while the argument did kind of make sense, the overall conclusions were still incorrect, to me, neither game captures the spirit of Elder Scrolls. Whether ESO manages to do so in the future though, remains to be seen.
Ok you just picked the two games of the moment to have a bit of notoriety also by trolls. I agree with you in the experience-wise critic, though I run a italian fansite and a guild since mamy months now in ESO. Why didn't you pick the real freedom mmorpg? Why not EvE online???
I don’t consider myself a “role player” in the sense that MMO players use the term
Stopped reading at that point. So you like companions who don't say a word, but hack away. So you compare ArcheAge with ESO from a arcade style of playing. Thank you. Not interested.
Please stop posting your COMPLETELY BIAS and troll-like "columns".
I used to come to this website because I really liked how neutral a lot of the writers were, unfortunately you are ruining that experience for me.
I'm not sure how old you are but I'm starting to think that you are really young and just an opinionated kid who doesn't want anyone to enjoy ESO... Jesus, I really hope that you aren't an adult.
Well to be perfectly fair, some people will like this, but I did not, the jerky bumpy moving about, the pretty poor looking character models (which could just be cultural as this is a aian game, but I prefer the males to look like males, not soft skinned little boys ) and the labour point system that limits what you can do. Tried the beta for a couple of days and just could not like this game one little bit even though I had high hopes for it. I did want to like it, but the game left me feeling disheartened, as one who had looked forward to it.
Please stop posting your COMPLETELY BIAS and troll-like "columns".
I used to come to this website because I really liked how neutral a lot of the writers were, unfortunately you are ruining that experience for me.
I'm not sure how old you are but I'm starting to think that you are really young and just an opinionated kid who doesn't want anyone to enjoy ESO... Jesus, I really hope that you aren't an adult.
Please stop posting your COMPLETELY BIAS and troll-like "columns".
I used to come to this website because I really liked how neutral a lot of the writers were, unfortunately you are ruining that experience for me.
I'm not sure how old you are but I'm starting to think that you are really young and just an opinionated kid who doesn't want anyone to enjoy ESO... Jesus, I really hope that you aren't an adult.
It's clickbait. It's how this site generates money and pushes the "2.8mio member" count -which is about as inflated as WoW 's 6.8mio "subs".
Please stop posting your COMPLETELY BIAS and troll-like "columns".
I used to come to this website because I really liked how neutral a lot of the writers were, unfortunately you are ruining that experience for me.
I'm not sure how old you are but I'm starting to think that you are really young and just an opinionated kid who doesn't want anyone to enjoy ESO... Jesus, I really hope that you aren't an adult.
It is a guest column by Kyle Trembley not SB Ford
I'm well aware they didn't write the article, they just used their seniority to plop it in everyone's lap as a "column" which like the "articles" always get more traffic because they have the appearance of being written by someone who works for this site.
I get that articles need to be open about content, but there's a difference between a post that openly describes these things without saying " this content is better then this content because "THEY PREFER IT." Granted most of these troll posts are not written directly by them.
Honestly, this makes me feel like he does it either to try and avoid the ridicule directly...
Or perhaps they just aren't that good at writing so filling 90% of the column with someone else's words works wonders for them. When it comes to this game, SB Ford CLEARLY does not like ESO, its pretty obvious... if you think otherwise perhaps you should work harder at reading between the lines.
Originally posted by grimal I really don't like this recent trend of pitting two games against each other. It's one thing when a forum user does it, but putting these as columns, interviews or any official editorial from MMORPG is really getting to be juvenile. It reeks of "my dad can beat up your dad" nonsense.
I've gotta agree with this.
This site has been letting itself go for a long while now, and articles like this aren't helping. The one thing is that there aren't that many decent sites to talk about MMOs on. However, I'm also getting tired of these types of topics being paraded around. It is juvenile, and it seems like pandering to the lowest common denominator.
When will people accept that it's okay to like different games. Leave the competition up to those that need to make money of these games.
I condemned this post a few days ago... why is back on the daily email? pretty paper thin attempt to ninja players. I say again... AA is in trions hands. I have 0 faith in their abilities. readers should visit the defiance forums. see how they handle their community. (this from an avid defiance player).
ps. having played both games, I'd say AA captures FFXIV slightly less better than FFXIV does. and any game developer captures my respect better than Trion does. lastly this OP captures my indifference. /rollseyes
I feel the spirit of the article isn't so much "ESO vs. Archeage" but more of a highlight on the contrast between games who lead one down a linear questline vs. games that allow players to set and achieve their own goals.
With all the talk about themeparks and sandboxes sometimes its good to step back and just look at what it is you really like or don't like about a game without trying to use some tired old label nobody is going to agree with in the first place.
In that regard I thought it was a good read. Thanks OP.
I'm well aware they didn't write the article, they just used their seniority to plop it in everyone's lap as a "column" which like the "articles" always get more traffic because they have the appearance of being written by someone who works for this site.
I get that articles need to be open about content, but there's a difference between a post that openly describes these things without saying " this content is better then this content because "THEY PREFER IT." Granted most of these troll posts are not written directly by them.
Honestly, this makes me feel like he does it either to try and avoid the ridicule directly...
Or perhaps they just aren't that good at writing so filling 90% of the column with someone else's words works wonders for them. When it comes to this game, SB Ford CLEARLY does not like ESO, its pretty obvious... if you think otherwise perhaps you should work harder at reading between the lines.
Since i registered here, I've seen my share of articles coming from these elusive "guest writers" with at times even funky names. Some of them were indeed new accounts (made for that article only) of authors nobody has ever heard of or ever seen another posting from. Introduced as "freelance writers", while you can't find their name or another article of them anywhere on the internet.
While in general it is frowned upon or even called "trolling" to open a controversial topic and not back it up in it's process, these writers usually only publish their piece and are never seen again after, leaving with 0 post in their profile.
Maybe not in this particular case, but in general I pretty much suspect that some of these "guest writers" are in fact staff members' pseudonyms and more often than not the content of an article literally mirrored an opinion of one of them.
Perhaps they use these accounts to not make their "friends in the industry" (=mmorpg.com's own words) mad when posting an unpopular opinion.
Comments
Great article!
I also have seen the great divide between "finding your own adventure" and "level fast".
I agree that it is both an issue for any MMO and the type of gamer YOU are. ESO was a letdown for me as well because of the community's chase for quick riches and levels, and the lack of ability to carve your own fun.
I still play WoW for my MMO escape (basically for lack of any other quality options) but only out of desperation to stake a claim in the MMO universe as a good-mannered player with a few fantasy characters that will continue to grow as the game grows.
Carve my own adventure? With the communities in today's theme parks? I guess not... but the future of MMOs is yet to be determined....
"I'm a nerd, and I'm pretty proud of it." - Gilbert, Revenge of the Nerds[1984]
As much as I like the sandbox style of ArcheAge the game has some crippling issues:
1) it's grindy
2) the graphics suck
3) the combat is clunky and not very fun
4) the story sucks
5) f2p with nickel and diming (SW:TOR, archeage, etc...) will always be worse for me. I'd rather pay $15 a month, get a steady stream of content (all the content), and rest knowing everyone is on the same playing field.
Would like to see a western developer try to mimic the style of ArcheAge with more fluid combat and a more enjoyable world/story.
A good article, no doubt on it. Touches one of the major problems in the MMORPG world today. while describing a personal experience and explaining from a personal point of view what has found out playing two completely different games, Kyle unfolds a part of the nowadays big conflict with games and gamers, a conflict that we read daily in the forums and is a very big mess for everyone: the repetitiveness and lack of creative value of companies that are dealing with huge numbers and created but clones of the-one-trick pony success with a different make-up and the surprising feeling that shoots in her mind memories of the times when a lot of different games had their own audience. And no, I will not blame ESO. It's a great game and in a level that any korean grinder will never reach. But the problem is that this korean grinder is trying something different and this is good news because the problem is that no one want to risk a cent in doing it. That said, the fact that a korean chore grinder with a cash shop is bullying a great piece of art made by high talented professionals is a worry, and at the very core of the problem with the industry.... What if a talented and major company with excel in quality decided to risk and create a game that was allowing players feel free and have a full cup of what we often call Sandox? Good news, when there is no alternative that a korean greed company offers something different, but very bad news when the Majors and his creatives and professionals are doing nothing to compete against that sing of the times.
Kyle maybe works at a marketing company, for me is meaningless, he can work where he wants, but one thing goes for certain: He knows the problem, identified it, and written about it in a way that allow us to be informed of what is happening here.
I don't know what you think about all this mess, but I would prefer by large to play an AAA quality title made by a team of outstanding professionals, from a company of proved talent than to be swallowed by another korean kraken that in the end, is just this kind of chore we all know so well, but with a little more freedom of choice in a environment of low quality, greedy intentions and non-existant plus values such as customer service, proper conduct with their community and many more of these things that seem to be a sidekick but are at the center of our way of making and understanding things.
That's all. Thanks. And this thread has been very instructive to learn a lot of things that remain unveiled in the heat of the discussion but that are there and we all can see clearly after a moment of clarity. Or at least in my case.
Now here is morning and should go to start my day, see you later on, I guess the discussion maybe have finished here but the forums will be burning a little bit later. I'm in Europe, so i join the discussions with a strong sensation of jet lag.
It is a question of fangs.
He didn't say that -- he actually very specifically said that Archeage may not be as good a game as ESO, that he was not judging the quality of the game or its systems, just that in one very specific way, Archeage gave him something that ESO did not. It's like my opinion of Fallen Earth -- I had a great time with it, I loved the crafting system, but I couldn't play it for very long for a lot of other reasons. I had similar experiences with Tabula Rasa -- I loved the combat and the base defenses and assaults, but it was, overall, still a horrible unfinished mess.
You can have a good time in a game, and still grow bored with it. And you can like certain aspects of a game that you don't actually enjoy, or after you've stopped enjoying it. What makes one game 'better' than another (a purely subjective term) is NOT any specific aspect, but your overall impression. Some of the best games I've played over the years have been total bugfests. Some of the worst games I've played have been near-perfect in that they did everything they were supposed to, but I just didn't have fun playing them.
AA is more like ES than ESO is?
What are you, five? That doesn't even make sense.
I really don"t see the need to compare games, and this is another negative dig toward ESO, did the folks at ZOS pee in your cereal or something? That's the problem these days new games cannot have their own identity, it has to be like this or like that.
I tested Archage, ok game when I was playing it I did not even think of any Elder Scrolls Games, but for me I thought AA was just meh, it will have it's fans just like Elder Scrolls, Blizzard and etc etc does. Geez we get it you are not a fan of Elder Scrolls. /facepalm
Actually it does make sense, ESO does not play like an Elder Scrolls game, its a Themepark MMO sure, and it has some of the naming conventions etc usually associated with Elder Scrolls, but thats where it ends.
The trouble is, is that by drawing a comparison with Skyrim, or any other Elder Scrolls game, and pointing out how ESO doesn't capture the spirit even of Elder Scrolls, they try to draw comparisons to Archeage because it has a few game features normally associated with Sandbox games - its a Themepark at heart however, but that isn't really the issue, Archeage no more captures the Elder Scrolls spirit than ESO does, less so even.
The OP could have even argued that Archeage captures the SWG spirit more than SW;TOR does, because it has a few sandbox features, it would still be entirely incorrect, and for the same reasons, just because a game has sandbox features, does not mean it's the same, or in the same spirit of, another game that also has sandbox features, to either a lesser or greater degree. In the same vein you could try to Argue that Eve online captures the spirit of Elder Scrolls more than ESO does, in that it permits free form gameplay without linear progression or area segregation, which is also something that Archeage does not do so the 'sandbox' features in Archeage are not that deeply embedded into the core of the game, but even so, it would be a 'silly' argument to try to make for obvious reasons.
But while the argument did kind of make sense, the overall conclusions were still incorrect, to me, neither game captures the spirit of Elder Scrolls. Whether ESO manages to do so in the future though, remains to be seen.
I don’t consider myself a “role player” in the sense that MMO players use the term
Stopped reading at that point. So you like companions who don't say a word, but hack away. So you compare ArcheAge with ESO from a arcade style of playing. Thank you. Not interested.
Dear SB Ford,
Please stop posting your COMPLETELY BIAS and troll-like "columns".
I used to come to this website because I really liked how neutral a lot of the writers were, unfortunately you are ruining that experience for me.
I'm not sure how old you are but I'm starting to think that you are really young and just an opinionated kid who doesn't want anyone to enjoy ESO... Jesus, I really hope that you aren't an adult.
Well to be perfectly fair, some people will like this, but I did not, the jerky bumpy moving about, the pretty poor looking character models (which could just be cultural as this is a aian game, but I prefer the males to look like males, not soft skinned little boys ) and the labour point system that limits what you can do. Tried the beta for a couple of days and just could not like this game one little bit even though I had high hopes for it. I did want to like it, but the game left me feeling disheartened, as one who had looked forward to it.
It is a guest column by Kyle Trembley not SB Ford
It's clickbait. It's how this site generates money and pushes the "2.8mio member" count -which is about as inflated as WoW 's 6.8mio "subs".
If you post the same, you'll get banned.
I'm well aware they didn't write the article, they just used their seniority to plop it in everyone's lap as a "column" which like the "articles" always get more traffic because they have the appearance of being written by someone who works for this site.
I get that articles need to be open about content, but there's a difference between a post that openly describes these things without saying " this content is better then this content because "THEY PREFER IT." Granted most of these troll posts are not written directly by them.
Honestly, this makes me feel like he does it either to try and avoid the ridicule directly...
Or perhaps they just aren't that good at writing so filling 90% of the column with someone else's words works wonders for them. When it comes to this game, SB Ford CLEARLY does not like ESO, its pretty obvious... if you think otherwise perhaps you should work harder at reading between the lines.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/418293/Column-Elder-Scrolls-Online-Emperor-Reset-Please.html
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/418293/Column-Elder-Scrolls-Online-Emperor-Reset-Please.html
I've gotta agree with this.
This site has been letting itself go for a long while now, and articles like this aren't helping. The one thing is that there aren't that many decent sites to talk about MMOs on. However, I'm also getting tired of these types of topics being paraded around. It is juvenile, and it seems like pandering to the lowest common denominator.
When will people accept that it's okay to like different games. Leave the competition up to those that need to make money of these games.
pretty paper thin attempt to ninja players.
I say again... AA is in trions hands. I have 0 faith in their abilities. readers should visit the defiance forums. see how they handle their community. (this from an avid defiance player).
and any game developer captures my respect better than Trion does.
lastly this OP captures my indifference. /rollseyes
I feel the spirit of the article isn't so much "ESO vs. Archeage" but more of a highlight on the contrast between games who lead one down a linear questline vs. games that allow players to set and achieve their own goals.
With all the talk about themeparks and sandboxes sometimes its good to step back and just look at what it is you really like or don't like about a game without trying to use some tired old label nobody is going to agree with in the first place.
In that regard I thought it was a good read. Thanks OP.
Since i registered here, I've seen my share of articles coming from these elusive "guest writers" with at times even funky names. Some of them were indeed new accounts (made for that article only) of authors nobody has ever heard of or ever seen another posting from. Introduced as "freelance writers", while you can't find their name or another article of them anywhere on the internet.
While in general it is frowned upon or even called "trolling" to open a controversial topic and not back it up in it's process, these writers usually only publish their piece and are never seen again after, leaving with 0 post in their profile.
Maybe not in this particular case, but in general I pretty much suspect that some of these "guest writers" are in fact staff members' pseudonyms and more often than not the content of an article literally mirrored an opinion of one of them.
Perhaps they use these accounts to not make their "friends in the industry" (=mmorpg.com's own words) mad when posting an unpopular opinion.