Why does everyone want "their" game to be called a sandbox?

ChicagoCub

It seems the recent trend in MMO's is to insist your game is a sandbox, either wholly or in part, even if its not.  A lot of people, paid contributors included, have absolutely tortured the term in order to get it to fit whatever game they are reviewing.  They invent new terms like "sandpark" in order to have their game included in the sandbox discussion.  First, why all of a sudden does everyone have this overwhelming urge to call their favorite game a sandbox?  Second, if these people really like sandbox games does calling that which is not a sandbox make them feel as if they are playing one?  Third and if not, why not just go play an actual sandbox style game?

Could you imagine if you went around insisting your SUV was a pick-up truck?  Eventually people would dismiss you as a nutjob.  Sure it has many of the same qualities but it also has qualities of it's own and trust me, if you show up to help your friend move with your "pick-up truck" you are going to have one angry friend. 

Holophonist

You're going to have to provide examples, to be honest. The thing I'm skeptical about is people trying to change non-sandbox games into sandbox games. Where is this happening?

 

As for why everybody's aching for sandbox games well.... they're better. As predicted by many many people, the market has been saturated by themeparks since the success of WoW, and it's only recently started to balance out. 

Quicksand

Some good points, well said.

Phaserlight

I'm not even sure whether to call this an argument, because I'm not sure what your point is.

Who is "they"? You start out as if writing about developers, but then later it looks as though you mean players. Does one group have more credibility over the other when it comes to genre definition? Perhaps players have more of an unbiased perspective than devs, unless players are promoting a particular title over an exaggerated sense of ownership?

There are a couple hidden assumptions in your post which may need to be discussed. First, that a game falling into the sandbox category is preferable to whatever alternative exists (or, if failing this, at least earning the moniker of "sandpark"). Second, you assume "they" are *wrong* without providing any examples, proof, or criteria.

CrazKanuk

Originally posted by ChicagoCub

It seems the recent trend in MMO's is to insist your game is a sandbox, either wholly or in part, even if its not.  A lot of people, paid contributors included, have absolutely tortured the term in order to get it to fit whatever game they are reviewing.  They invent new terms like "sandpark" in order to have their game included in the sandbox discussion.  First, why all of a sudden does everyone have this overwhelming urge to call their favorite game a sandbox?  Second, if these people really like sandbox games does calling that which is not a sandbox make them feel as if they are playing one?  Third and if not, why not just go play an actual sandbox style game?

Could you imagine if you went around insisting your SUV was a pick-up truck?  Eventually people would dismiss you as a nutjob.  Sure it has many of the same qualities but it also has qualities of it's own and trust me, if you show up to help your friend move with your "pick-up truck" you are going to have one angry friend. 

Ok, ok, ok. First of all, I don't think that everyone wants a sandbox game. I think that there is a small niche group of people who probably, actually want a good sandbox game. In their case, they are probably playing something. To say that there are no sandbox games out there is ridiculous.

 

Secondly, there are definitely a group of people who have latched onto that sandbox train and simply carry on, completely uninformed. It's like those people who go to a rally just so they can be at the rally, because people are saying that's where you need to be. To use your analogy, it would be like my friends telling me I should get a pickup. I just kinda like my compact, though. I mean I don't need it for anything but commuting, really. So I go into the car dealer and I ask for a pickup, but the SUV catches my eye so I start asking about it and the sales guy tells me it has "pickup elements". Yup, it has 4 wheels, shoot maybe even 4-wheel drive. It's got a frontend that looks a lot like a truck. So maybe he actually sells me on it, or maybe I buy into it because I just want to be part of that pickup crowd and want to believe that it is a pickup. 

 

Third, again, the majority of people would find a true sandbox game boring. If sandbox games were the rage that they appear to be then EVE would have like 5 million subscribers or something. "People" as in the general public, the majority of players, don't want Sandbox games. They are a niche genre. If you need more evidence of that, simply think of your top 5 sandbox games and think about how many people are actually playing them. It's really not a mass-appeal type thing. 

iixviiiix

Not "everyone" but many .

Basically people want enjoy build something or tired of what they call "themepark"

Bigdaddyx

It is a trend nothing more. Even though these MMOS are hardly sandbox. I don't even see any true sandbox releases on Horizon.

CrazKanuk

Originally posted by iixviiiix

Not "everyone" but many .

Basically people want enjoy build something or tired of what they call "themepark"

Again, I think you're overstating. If you played a "true" sandbox game, you'd understand that they don't offer the same mass appeal as a themepark. They are niche. People saying that "everyone" or "many" people want sandbox games simply don't know what's involved with a sandbox. 

CrazKanuk

Originally posted by Bigdaddyx
It is a trend nothing more. Even though these MMOS are hardly sandbox. I don't even see any true sandbox releases on Horizon.

The Repopulation? Again, sounds like a sandbox, but I haven't actually played it yet. Still waiting on my kick at the cat. 

Kyleran

Originally posted by CrazKanuk

Originally posted by iixviiiix
Not "everyone" but many . Basically people want enjoy build something or tired of what they call "themepark"

Again, I think you're overstating. If you played a "true" sandbox game, you'd understand that they don't offer the same mass appeal as a themepark. They are niche. People saying that "everyone" or "many" people want sandbox games simply don't know what's involved with a sandbox. 

 

I'd be interested in knowing which MMOs are "true" or proper sandboxes and why you think so.

I suspect the list of games and features or qualifiers might differ from others and that's where the debate rages.

breadm1x

The same reson why like everything out there now has a Founders option.

To make money.

I remember the day i was honored to be invited to a beta, to help the developers to improve the game and find them nasty bugs.

Now they just sell 200$ founderspacks and your off with your awesome "Founders" tag.

Only thing i played that comes close to a sandbox was Neocron Online. and i think EVE.

I played Archeage last weekend but did not came over to me as sandbox.

Just quest hopping, and the so called "sandbox" part costs you labor points, witch u never get enough from if your a f2p player.

Firefall had some sandbox elements but the last time i tried that they kinda killed that part and it was boring and a drag to play.

 

rojoArcueid

i dont want my game to be called sandbox. I want my game to have sandbox elements, but still be driven by a well created and in depth story that does not limit gameplay. I believe a sandbox doesnt necessarily need to be 100% user generated to be good. With enough elements im happy.

DamonVile

Themepark = bad

Sandbox = good

That in a nutshell is the depth of the thinking behind it. You don't even need to know what one really is, all you have to do is keep saying it and you'll look like you know and are asking for the right thing.

Pepeq

People just want something different.   If ice cream cake was the buzzword of the hour, they'd be demanding cake over pie.  Has zero to do with wanting a sandbox and everything to do with not wanting a themepark.

 

The real issue is, they know what they don't want... they have no idea what they do want, thus pipe dreams aplenty floating around trying to earn their dollar.  If you don't know what you are looking for, you'll buy anything.  The state of the MMO market in a nutshell.

GrumpyMel2

Because "sandbox" is the new black.  Trust me, if Developers and thier marketers thought it was in fashion, they'd be calling thier games a  "potato" to try to sell them. I actualy LIKE and want sandbox games...I have for the past 10 years or so... but today it's become a marketing buzzword.... just like "story" was before TOR launched and kinda fell flat.  Hopefully tomorrow there will be a new buzzword for the industry to latch onto and "sandbox" can be left to the Developers that actualy want and intend to build sandbox games....rather then something they can slap a marketing label on.

free2play

EVE and Perpetuum Online are the only Sandbox games that I know of. They are the only ones with a decay system. They both rely on PvP for all the decay and you can question the practical nature of that but it's decay.

I don't care what they call it. Without a decay system is has no longevity and is not a sandbox.

 

Jabas

Everyone want that?

Now thats real news for me.

 

 

The most discuss about sandbox i see around this forums is the subjective related to the term where ppl have diferent opinions about what it means.

CrazKanuk

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by CrazKanuk

Originally posted by iixviiiix

Not "everyone" but many .

Basically people want enjoy build something or tired of what they call "themepark"

Again, I think you're overstating. If you played a "true" sandbox game, you'd understand that they don't offer the same mass appeal as a themepark. They are niche. People saying that "everyone" or "many" people want sandbox games simply don't know what's involved with a sandbox. 

 

I'd be interested in knowing which MMOs are "true" or proper sandboxes and why you think so. I suspect the list of games and features or qualifiers might differ from others and that's where the debate rages.

I think that probably the best example of a sandbox today is EVE. I've backed The Repopulation, also, as it sounds like it might be interesting as well. Minecraft is another and, while completely discrediting my argument that not "many" people want sandbox games, I'd make the argument that if Minecraft was within a specific universe, was an MMO, and had a specific genre, it'd be a much different story. Similarly, I think that if you made something like EQN as open as Minecraft, you could get yourself into game-breaking issues related to player-created content. Nonetheless, I would define a sandbox as a non-linear, open world, game where players actually influence the world, characters, and direction of the game. 

GeezerGamer

One thing I don't recognize are modding tools (To make a game specifically a sandbox). I think it's great they exist, and I have a blast using them to adjust and alter certain aspects of my games, but if it's something created outside the game and inserted in, and my character had nothing to do with it's creation and just happen to "stumble" onto it as though it was always there, then it's not "sandbox"

Grunty

Your beloved SUVs are station wagons that are ashamed of being station wagons. Not pickup trucks.

 

VengeSunsoar

A decay system defines a sandbox? That's a new one.

And here I thought it was about the ability to create something. Whether it be building or events or character... you know like a sandbox.

Torgrim

I giggle alittle it when some people thump their chest and says a full loot FFA PVP MMO is automaticly a sandbox game and they are proud of playing such an hardcore epic game.

Sadly many key features that define sandbox elements are not there or in a very basic form in those games.

Gravarg

It's because they don't know what a sandbox is.  If someone released a real sandbox, everyone would cry about the lack of content.  This has happened with just about every quasi sandbox game released in the last 10 or so years.  Sandbox means, you, the player creates the content, the developer doesn't create much contentt.  It's like a real life sandbox, that's where it got the name.  The developer creates a little content, but it's mainly upto the players to entertain themselves.  Without a quest telling them to do something, today's players are confused and think there is no content.

azzamasin

Originally posted by ChicagoCub

It seems the recent trend in MMO's is to insist your game is a sandbox, either wholly or in part, even if its not.  A lot of people, paid contributors included, have absolutely tortured the term in order to get it to fit whatever game they are reviewing.  They invent new terms like "sandpark" in order to have their game included in the sandbox discussion.  First, why all of a sudden does everyone have this overwhelming urge to call their favorite game a sandbox?  Second, if these people really like sandbox games does calling that which is not a sandbox make them feel as if they are playing one?  Third and if not, why not just go play an actual sandbox style game?

Could you imagine if you went around insisting your SUV was a pick-up truck?  Eventually people would dismiss you as a nutjob.  Sure it has many of the same qualities but it also has qualities of it's own and trust me, if you show up to help your friend move with your "pick-up truck" you are going to have one angry friend. 

The problem is when people like you try to narrowly define the term to mean exactly ONE thing.  When in reality the term sandbox originally meant non-linear gaming.  Sadly this pervasive and almost dogmatic narrow mindedness got the term narrowly defined in the Wikipedia.  I remember several years ago when you looked up the definition you would see the term sandbox defined where the word open-ended gaming is now.  Which is 100% false and wrong.

 

Sandbox has always meant to convey a non linear gaming model where the player had open-ended freedom to play how he wanted.  Go where he wanted and progress how they wanted.  This is the term and definition I'll always hold too.

GeezerGamer

Originally posted by azzamasin

Originally posted by ChicagoCub

It seems the recent trend in MMO's is to insist your game is a sandbox, either wholly or in part, even if its not.  A lot of people, paid contributors included, have absolutely tortured the term in order to get it to fit whatever game they are reviewing.  They invent new terms like "sandpark" in order to have their game included in the sandbox discussion.  First, why all of a sudden does everyone have this overwhelming urge to call their favorite game a sandbox?  Second, if these people really like sandbox games does calling that which is not a sandbox make them feel as if they are playing one?  Third and if not, why not just go play an actual sandbox style game?

Could you imagine if you went around insisting your SUV was a pick-up truck?  Eventually people would dismiss you as a nutjob.  Sure it has many of the same qualities but it also has qualities of it's own and trust me, if you show up to help your friend move with your "pick-up truck" you are going to have one angry friend. 

The problem is when people like you try to narrowly define the term to mean exactly ONE thing.  When in reality the term sandbox originally meant non-linear gaming.  Sadly this pervasive and almost dogmatic narrow mindedness got the term narrowly defined in the Wikipedia.  I remember several years ago when you looked up the definition you would see the term sandbox defined where the word open-ended gaming is now.  Which is 100% false and wrong.

 

Sandbox has always meant to convey a non linear gaming model where the player had open-ended freedom to play how he wanted.  Go where he wanted and progress how they wanted.  This is the term and definition I'll always hold too.

Not sure I accept that sandbox=open ended.

Looking at single player games, for example, games like Oblivion, Fallout, and Skyrim are open ended, but most definitely Theme Park. You can't really change the world, crafting is limited, in fact Skyrim crafting is almost a cut n paste from traditional theme park crafting. Oblivion has no crafting what so ever outside of potions. And Fallout crafting is also rather limited. Yet all are open ended in terms of exploring but none really allow you to leave your permanent mark on the world. Except for Skyrim-Hearthfire, but that's a themepark style housing creator. All pre-defined,. Just supply the necessary mats and out comes a pre-generated room/structure compete with furnishings you can't even manipulate.

Soandsoso

I notice the same thing when I go to Steam and browse the games.

Look under RPG, see games listed and decide nothing their of interest.

Go to Action, interesting, see some games that are under the RPG listing.

Go to Strategy and behold, still see some games that are under both.

 

Its just very cheap marketing. And also speaks to the overall decrease of creativity that has befallen the species.

Instead of trying to sell the game based on its primary feature they slap it into every genre to try to get more sales. And then some people get pissed off when they realize that RPG element is really not a RPG game, but an FPS shooter.

 

And sandbox seems to be the fotm buzzword. Last year and the year before the word was "Innovation".

And the sandbox will fail due to much of the MMORPG player base currently does not have the creativity to build something within the sand box. Thus the birth and dominance of the theme park...pay your monies and enjoy the ride...and then qq all the way to the next theme park.