Being able to build off of that amount of subs in the first two years is 100x more adventageous than anything a developer like Carbine or Zenimax can think of today. It has allowed them to foster a loyal playerbase as well as a good reputation.
There were mmos before WoW. WoW just did it better than anything that came before it, plus they had a good reputation before WoW was even conceived. Warcraft, Diablo, Starcraft and Warcraft 2 were all great games so gamers took a chance on the Blizzard name when World of Warcraft came out. Blizzard didn't disappoint.
Other fond memories were also back in the earlier days of wow. Milestones. They meant something. They were important. Not realy anymore. Now, it's just a matter of plowing through to cap and there is no "smelling of roses". My 1st character to cap was a Human Paladin.......we won't discuss that experience, however, once I learend WoW, my 2nd was much smoother. My Hunter. I planned this out from teh beginning. I was going to maintain all leveling evenly. I would not power level my character unless I had the rest of my skills to match. So I would force myself to break from leveling and go back and spend time skinning animals, Crafting my leathers, grinding mobs for linen to get my 1st aid up, Spending hours on a dock somewhere to keep fishing leveled so I could keep my cooking on par with my character. I remember my rule of thumb. Every character level needed 5 skill points.
Back then, it was worth keeping them skilled like that. I made a difference and really did contribute to the leveling experience. But by the time MOP rolled around, crafting? That's something you do after you cap so you can get your DPS bonus. Which also meant, what you craft was also pre determined by your class and spec.
I'd say actually there's not enough focus on it and that earlier games had more focus on it.
Having a focus on end-game doesn't mean it should be easy to get there. On the contrary, it means it should be an achievement to get there. If end-game's the most important thing in your game then your players also need to feel that it's important. One way of achieving that is to make it take great amounts of time to get there.
If your game has a focus on something then there needs to be challenge and investment there. It could be challenge, end-game's incredibly hard and take skill and practice. It could be time, end-game takes a long while to reach and progress in. It could be social, end-game takes big guilds or lots of friends etc.
Lots of ways to make it count. And I think the error recent games are making is that end-game's too easy in all matters. Players don't have to invest in end-game or anywhere else in the game. And if you invest nothing then there's nothing keeping you with the game once the initial shine has worn off.
This is what i believe as well.
Before 2010 games were all about getting to max level, while 'end game' was there as a time sink; you raided while waiting on some new content to be released.
Nowdays, getting to max level is the time sink; something you have to do before you can enter 'the end game', the part where the game begins. This is absurd.
End game should be a part of a game you begin to work with if you've done pretty much everything else. If that 'everything else' lasts about two weeks, don't expect people to experience your end game any more than a month; it gets old very soon.
On the other hand, if you want to play only the end game (lets say siege PvP in ESO, or 40 man raiding in WS), why does levels even exist if leveling game is there only as a mandatory mini-game to go through before you can play.
The modern MMOs with linear questing from 1 to max level serves no one, except people who play solo, and casually enjoy the story. That's what you can find in singe player games. Multiplayers usually want to get into action right away (PvP players) or want to develope their characters, explore the world and improve their gear (PvE players). Neither of these groups enjoys a boring and linear single player game before 'their game' begins.
So, get rid of the levels altogether, or treat the leveling part of a game as 'the real game', that takes long time and makes your players to sub for months.
WS may have lots of end game focus, but it's made for that tiny niche who wants themepark hardcore 40 man raid content. That's who they wanted to attract, and they did. Great success.
that is also biting them back. They made a very mediocre and dull experience while leveling as a result of focusing too much on the end game niche they wanted to grab. Mind as well give instant max level straight to end game characters to everyone to avoid the rest of the game.
I presonally think there has to be a balance. Focus on both sides of the coin, pre-endgame, and end game. No matter how good your post max level content is, if the leveling experience is horrible i will not hit max level. That is a problem.
I guess my point wasn't clear using a heavy gear oriented game may have clouded the main idea. You can essentially take gear away from the game and still make it more complex for the player. Take Guild Wars 1 hardly a gear progression game. It had skill captures. Skill progression although not as complex as AO(and not even mid-level content but end game). Content beyond PvP and PvE Raids but that could aid in doing both. No I don't think gear progress is the be all end all to MMOs it was just an example.
Originally posted by GeezerGamer I was just reading in the thread discussing how WildStar is struggling. I'm left thinking that it's a sharp contrast to the games that have come before it. in terms of End Game approach. Other games were criticized for not having enough End Game content at cap. It is what accounted for the high initial populations that very quickly dropped to a fraction of that within the 1st 2-3 months post release.But then we see Wildstar enter with a strong focus on End Game content yet, the same result. A sharp drop off in game population after a short time.I had always believed the issue was that these current games lacked enough viable options in activities for players to engage in. I still do, but now, I am also looking at a list of games, such as, WoW, EQ 1 and 2, FFXIV, SWTOR, Rift, and WildStar and I am asking, what's the difference here? Why did Vanilla WoW and EQ seem to hold on to their player base for years instead of months? My only answer now is the leveling experience. Back when it took the months for most to reach cap. Recent games have players capping in a week now. That was unheard of before.
It may be that those who desired endgame activities in previous titles left when it was not so heavily developed.
Then Wildstar releases and those looking for the journey left? Two groups of players indicating the same results is what I am getting at here
As far as "End Game", I despise it. This is when my characters retire. Is there too much focus on it? Usually, yes there is is. But, that is what many players clamor for. "Lack of end game!" is a common complaint I see.
Most players today view "the journey" as boring. They want to be epic NOW! They want to fight boss mobs right out of the gate. This is one reason many see leveling/character growth as "boring." They do not care about their characters. They only want to do as much damage as they can as quickly as they can. They desire "Michael Bay" type explosions from the start.
Basically, today's players want it, so the developers give it to them. Have fun
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I think you have to have plenty of fun things to do at all points of the game for a variety of player types. Some people want to grind out the levels no matter how boring it is to get to the real game which in their mind is raiding. Some people want to adventure and do all the quests and see the sights. Some people want to dabble in crafting along the way. Some people want to roleplay, go fishing, drink beer, socialize, pvp, etc. But I think it all starts with creating a believable world that you want to be a part of. I didn't want to be a part of Wildstar's world, just seemed odd, same goes for Final Fantasy. Plus NCSoft shut down City of Heroes, screw them!
Originally posted by d4rkwing If I had never played an MMO before, pretty much any of them would be cool enough to hold my interest. But I've been playing computer RPGs for more than 20 years. I no longer enjoy leveling up characters and killing 20 monster, collecting 10 of this and taking them to quest dude in the next town just to get xp so I can level up so I can do the same thing with bigger numbers. For example, I'm trying out ArcheAge. I am tired of the leveling/questing/killing npc part. But I am find the farmville and exploration stuff interesting. I find even more intriguing the promise of siege warfare (although I haven't tried it yet). I played GW2 and thought WvWvW was pretty awesome (it just needed a few different maps, playing the same thing over and over did get kind of old).If anything I'd say there's too much focus on the treadmill aspects of these games. The non-treadmill parts can be quite fun and those are the parts that should get more focus going forward.
I feel sorry for you, not in a bad way. I have played video games like you, but every time I try a new one, I treat it as a new experience, instead of carrying all of my previous actions through to the next game.
Even when I play Skyrim, I go through the "boring" wagon ride every time (over 30 characters thus far). Why? Because it sets the tone for the game really well. I don't say to myself, "Been here. Done this." I take the role of my new character and soak it all in. They have never taken that wagon ride before, even though I have
It may also help that my memory is atrocious
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Ah the now rare ability to immerse in a fame through role play without 'exciting choices' with rewards every 20 seconds ^^ almost like a good book, crazy!
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by GeezerGamer Other fond memories were also back in the earlier days of wow. Milestones. They meant something. They were important. Not realy anymore. Now, it's just a matter of plowing through to cap and there is no "smelling of roses". My 1st character to cap was a Human Paladin.......we won't discuss that experience, however, once I learend WoW, my 2nd was much smoother. My Hunter. I planned this out from teh beginning. I was going to maintain all leveling evenly. I would not power level my character unless I had the rest of my skills to match. So I would force myself to break from leveling and go back and spend time skinning animals, Crafting my leathers, grinding mobs for linen to get my 1st aid up, Spending hours on a dock somewhere to keep fishing leveled so I could keep my cooking on par with my character. I remember my rule of thumb. Every character level needed 5 skill points. Back then, it was worth keeping them skilled like that. I made a difference and really did contribute to the leveling experience. But by the time MOP rolled around, crafting? That's something you do after you cap so you can get your DPS bonus. Which also meant, what you craft was also pre determined by your class and spec.
i get the feeling that everything u play is compared to WoW. someone already said the simple fact: right place, right time. if WoW released today along side games like ESO and wildstar it would never see the numbers it has or ever had. it would do no better than any other mmo. i would almost say it would do worse. many still play it simply cus of the time invested and the memories of days gone by. we need to stop comparing mmo's.
Usually when a new mmo is made there is a huge rush to endgame. That being said endgame seems to be just as important has the questing to get up to the max lvl or w/e it maybe. For hardcore gamers they want something to do in order to stay. I asked a question once about why people race to the finish of new mmos the answers were kinda mediocre. Most of these players I dont see read or get into lore which is kinda sad if you think about it.
A man who fears nothing is a man who loves nothing; and if you love nothing, what joy is there in your life?
Originally posted by eqravenprince I think you have to have plenty of fun things to do at all points of the game for a variety of player types. Some people want to grind out the levels no matter how boring it is to get to the real game which in their mind is raiding. Some people want to adventure and do all the quests and see the sights. Some people want to dabble in crafting along the way. Some people want to roleplay, go fishing, drink beer, socialize, pvp, etc. But I think it all starts with creating a believable world that you want to be a part of. I didn't want to be a part of Wildstar's world, just seemed odd, same goes for Final Fantasy. Plus NCSoft shut down City of Heroes, screw them!
lol. i miss CoX as well. sure wish they would redo it. there was no crafting or auction house or gear to grind. was just a fantastic game with almost no content. imagine a new CoX with all the above mentioned and more.
dont say they added it later. what was added later was far too late and they knew they were on life support.
End game usually represents the content available once you reach end game (obvious excEptions are sandbox, Gw 1 &2). The real issue is games that offer the continual increase in gear/power model with no balancing. This forces people to rush to keep up, a crude mechanic to hook players that should have seen its day by now.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
It seems like everyone is getting tired of the same old leveling progress. Level up, add stats, level up, add stats, new gear, ext. What if a game took away the leveling progress and put it towards leveling of weapons instead of gear? Its a noble concept but it looks like by everyone's post that it is almost redundant to level characters. It seems like there is no more community based games anymore where you have an experience with multiple people and create new friendships. The only game that hits anywhere close to developing a community it seems like is GW2. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't that the meaning behind a MMO, getting people to play together? That is what should keep people playing beyond the endgame content. Seems to me that they are going away from this strategy.
Originally posted by eqravenprince ...Plus NCSoft shut down City of Heroes, screw them!
lol. i miss CoX as well. sure wish they would redo it. there was no crafting or auction house or gear to grind. was just a fantastic game with almost no content. imagine a new CoX with all the above mentioned and more.
dont say they added it later. what was added later was far too late and they knew they were on life support.
City of Heroes content was the character creator and all the combinations of primary, secondary, and pool powers. I can't tell you how many hours was spent just designing a character. Plus the combat was simple yet fun as hell. One of the few games that I felt very powerful, even at early levels. This game is casual MMO at it's best, but still had enough to keep hardcores around.
Horizontal increase of skill/gear options (not power) is the answer. Look at any vertical progression games: constantly breaking balance, obsessions with minmaxing at the cost of gameplay, constantly out levelling content, gradually simplifying skill options (who the hell once a game to reduce options over time!)
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
WoW is all end game and manages to hold 7 million subs after 10 years. End game focus is not the problem, end game variety is the issue. Wildstar's end game focuses solely on 20 and 40 man large scale raiding and lengthy attunements, here in lies the problem. While I am a fan of this type of gameplay many are not. Many people like to have easily accessible, easily completed content at their fingertips and many people do not wish to participate in organized group content.
WoW succeeds where all other MMOs fail by having both highly accessible and more difficult to reach content. For example anyone can participate in LFR, dungeon finder, and battlegrounds while people that have the need for more difficult content can participate in hard mode content and arenas. If you aren't into any of that you can still faceroll through old content to get x-mog gear, craft, farm, cook, etc... Basically there is something for everyone however they like it.
Originally posted by Bladestrom Horizontal increase of skill/gear options (not power) is the answer. Look at any vertical progression games: constantly breaking balance, obsessions with minmaxing at the cost of gameplay, constantly out levelling content, gradually simplifying skill options (who the hell once a game to reduce options over time!)
What mmos have been successful going the Horizontal rout ? and you can't include any game that started that way but ended up putting vertical progression in later.
Eve, GW1,GW2 are all games I have played. You should maybe ask what vertical game has succeeded without the above issues, it's a fundementally broken model (increasing power creates imbalance)
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by Bladestrom Eve, GW1,GW2 are all games I have played. You should maybe ask what vertical game has succeeded without the above issues, it's a fundementally broken model (increasing power creates imbalance)
EVE I think has the best progression system of any MMO I have seen. A player who has been playing for years is decidedly more powerful than a noob but not so much so that he doesn't have to watch himself a bit if there are a dozen newer players all working together who really want to take him down. That is the kind of power progression model all MMOS should use in my opinion.
On the other hand GW2 has terrible progression, you get most skills you will actually use in early levels and after that it is just boring as far as progression. "Oooh...in 20 levels I can get one more semi-useful skill." That's how not to do horizontal progression IMO. I think there needs to be a balance like EVE does it because I don't want to play an RPG where my character is not getting any useful skills or power increase at all. (Gradual slope progression?)
Originally posted by Bladestrom Eve, GW1,GW2 are all games I have played. You should maybe ask what vertical game has succeeded without the above issues, it's a fundementally broken model (increasing power creates imbalance)
Isn't EVE both Horizontal and Vertical in terms of progression? Also, it's not really a great example. While the game is a successful game, I don't think it has the draw where anything like it will ever be big enough. EVE has plenty of active subscriptions, but how many active players does it have compared? When you remove multi-boxing and Multi-accounts from the equation, you are left with the number of people who play the game, That number won't be nearly as impressive as subscriptions.
GW1 wasn't an MMORPG
GW2 has adopted a bit of vertical progression and players still complain there isn't enough to do at 80.
Gw2 has a metric ton of horizontal progression, it's just not to the taste of all. I play casually and am competitive and occasionally deadly in pvp, similar in pve. Horizontal skill sets desperatly needs to expand just like gw1. Re progression, I'm currently working on 3 different ascension gear sets, offensive and defensive upgrades, 2 ascension weapons, luck, wvw xp for traits, char xp for skill points, and materials for legendary. in wvw in particular I'm focusing on 2 gear sets for roaming and big group play. that's a lot of progression.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
@geezer, successful within the context of MMO means not plagued with the issues mentioned and profitable enough that it can stay alive. too many think success must mean hav millions of subs.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
The "end-game" is nothing more than a means to keep players invested in and playing a game. Due to development cycles for new content, abilities, classes, races, and so on; having players waste spend hours upon hours prepping for and experiencing "end-game" content is the easiest way for a developer to bide their time while they release new stuff.
Is there too much focus on "end-game"? The answer is a resounding YES. Far too often, developers drop the ball on story, mechanics, and character advancement/customization for the sake of having a "fun" end-game.
As for why WOW and EQ kept players for years instead of months, there is no clear winner here. It is a combination of things:
Invested: I'm already well known, in a good guild, and have multiple good characters. I made the excuse a lot back when I was floating back and forth between EQ and whatever the new FOTM was for MMO games.
Friends: After spending years grouping/raiding/talking with the same people, why quit? Relationships and social interaction keep people returning. I'm not saying it is the only thing, but it definitely helps.
Clones: I don't want to play a WOW clone. I mean seriously, how often can you play a level based fantasy game with tongue in cheek humor, the "standard" quest hubs, and tree-based character progression? Make that sci-fi, then you get something that is slightly more interested for about 2-minutes.
Raquelis in various games Played: Everything Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6 Wants: The World Anticipating:Everquest NextCrowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
Even when I play Skyrim, I go through the "boring" wagon ride every time (over 30 characters thus far). Why? Because it sets the tone for the game really well. I don't say to myself, "Been here. Done this." I take the role of my new character and soak it all in. They have never taken that wagon ride before, even though I have
It may also help that my memory is atrocious
May be that is it. I don't see how going through the same wagon ride the 30th time can still be entertaining unless you can magically imbue amnesia on yourself.
There is no such thing as the "new character" .. it is just a part of you. You can't pretend you have not ridden the wagon before (to yourself, yes, you can pretend to others) unless you can erase your own memory.
Game characters are not real people. They are just a way to entertain us.
Comments
There were mmos before WoW. WoW just did it better than anything that came before it, plus they had a good reputation before WoW was even conceived. Warcraft, Diablo, Starcraft and Warcraft 2 were all great games so gamers took a chance on the Blizzard name when World of Warcraft came out. Blizzard didn't disappoint.
Other fond memories were also back in the earlier days of wow. Milestones. They meant something. They were important. Not realy anymore. Now, it's just a matter of plowing through to cap and there is no "smelling of roses". My 1st character to cap was a Human Paladin.......we won't discuss that experience, however, once I learend WoW, my 2nd was much smoother. My Hunter. I planned this out from teh beginning. I was going to maintain all leveling evenly. I would not power level my character unless I had the rest of my skills to match. So I would force myself to break from leveling and go back and spend time skinning animals, Crafting my leathers, grinding mobs for linen to get my 1st aid up, Spending hours on a dock somewhere to keep fishing leveled so I could keep my cooking on par with my character. I remember my rule of thumb. Every character level needed 5 skill points.
Back then, it was worth keeping them skilled like that. I made a difference and really did contribute to the leveling experience. But by the time MOP rolled around, crafting? That's something you do after you cap so you can get your DPS bonus. Which also meant, what you craft was also pre determined by your class and spec.
This is what i believe as well.
Before 2010 games were all about getting to max level, while 'end game' was there as a time sink; you raided while waiting on some new content to be released.
Nowdays, getting to max level is the time sink; something you have to do before you can enter 'the end game', the part where the game begins. This is absurd.
End game should be a part of a game you begin to work with if you've done pretty much everything else. If that 'everything else' lasts about two weeks, don't expect people to experience your end game any more than a month; it gets old very soon.
On the other hand, if you want to play only the end game (lets say siege PvP in ESO, or 40 man raiding in WS), why does levels even exist if leveling game is there only as a mandatory mini-game to go through before you can play.
The modern MMOs with linear questing from 1 to max level serves no one, except people who play solo, and casually enjoy the story. That's what you can find in singe player games. Multiplayers usually want to get into action right away (PvP players) or want to develope their characters, explore the world and improve their gear (PvE players). Neither of these groups enjoys a boring and linear single player game before 'their game' begins.
So, get rid of the levels altogether, or treat the leveling part of a game as 'the real game', that takes long time and makes your players to sub for months.
that is also biting them back. They made a very mediocre and dull experience while leveling as a result of focusing too much on the end game niche they wanted to grab. Mind as well give instant max level straight to end game characters to everyone to avoid the rest of the game.
I presonally think there has to be a balance. Focus on both sides of the coin, pre-endgame, and end game. No matter how good your post max level content is, if the leveling experience is horrible i will not hit max level. That is a problem.
I guess my point wasn't clear using a heavy gear oriented game may have clouded the main idea. You can essentially take gear away from the game and still make it more complex for the player. Take Guild Wars 1 hardly a gear progression game. It had skill captures. Skill progression although not as complex as AO(and not even mid-level content but end game). Content beyond PvP and PvE Raids but that could aid in doing both. No I don't think gear progress is the be all end all to MMOs it was just an example.
Then Wildstar releases and those looking for the journey left? Two groups of players indicating the same results is what I am getting at here
As far as "End Game", I despise it. This is when my characters retire. Is there too much focus on it? Usually, yes there is is. But, that is what many players clamor for. "Lack of end game!" is a common complaint I see.
Most players today view "the journey" as boring. They want to be epic NOW! They want to fight boss mobs right out of the gate. This is one reason many see leveling/character growth as "boring." They do not care about their characters. They only want to do as much damage as they can as quickly as they can. They desire "Michael Bay" type explosions from the start.
Basically, today's players want it, so the developers give it to them. Have fun
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Even when I play Skyrim, I go through the "boring" wagon ride every time (over 30 characters thus far). Why? Because it sets the tone for the game really well. I don't say to myself, "Been here. Done this." I take the role of my new character and soak it all in. They have never taken that wagon ride before, even though I have
It may also help that my memory is atrocious
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
i get the feeling that everything u play is compared to WoW. someone already said the simple fact: right place, right time. if WoW released today along side games like ESO and wildstar it would never see the numbers it has or ever had. it would do no better than any other mmo. i would almost say it would do worse. many still play it simply cus of the time invested and the memories of days gone by. we need to stop comparing mmo's.
A man who fears nothing is a man who loves nothing; and if you love nothing, what joy is there in your life?
lol. i miss CoX as well. sure wish they would redo it. there was no crafting or auction house or gear to grind. was just a fantastic game with almost no content. imagine a new CoX with all the above mentioned and more.
dont say they added it later. what was added later was far too late and they knew they were on life support.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
City of Heroes content was the character creator and all the combinations of primary, secondary, and pool powers. I can't tell you how many hours was spent just designing a character. Plus the combat was simple yet fun as hell. One of the few games that I felt very powerful, even at early levels. This game is casual MMO at it's best, but still had enough to keep hardcores around.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
WoW is all end game and manages to hold 7 million subs after 10 years. End game focus is not the problem, end game variety is the issue. Wildstar's end game focuses solely on 20 and 40 man large scale raiding and lengthy attunements, here in lies the problem. While I am a fan of this type of gameplay many are not. Many people like to have easily accessible, easily completed content at their fingertips and many people do not wish to participate in organized group content.
WoW succeeds where all other MMOs fail by having both highly accessible and more difficult to reach content. For example anyone can participate in LFR, dungeon finder, and battlegrounds while people that have the need for more difficult content can participate in hard mode content and arenas. If you aren't into any of that you can still faceroll through old content to get x-mog gear, craft, farm, cook, etc... Basically there is something for everyone however they like it.
What mmos have been successful going the Horizontal rout ? and you can't include any game that started that way but ended up putting vertical progression in later.
I honestly can't think of a single one.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
EVE I think has the best progression system of any MMO I have seen. A player who has been playing for years is decidedly more powerful than a noob but not so much so that he doesn't have to watch himself a bit if there are a dozen newer players all working together who really want to take him down. That is the kind of power progression model all MMOS should use in my opinion.
On the other hand GW2 has terrible progression, you get most skills you will actually use in early levels and after that it is just boring as far as progression. "Oooh...in 20 levels I can get one more semi-useful skill." That's how not to do horizontal progression IMO. I think there needs to be a balance like EVE does it because I don't want to play an RPG where my character is not getting any useful skills or power increase at all. (Gradual slope progression?)
Isn't EVE both Horizontal and Vertical in terms of progression? Also, it's not really a great example. While the game is a successful game, I don't think it has the draw where anything like it will ever be big enough. EVE has plenty of active subscriptions, but how many active players does it have compared? When you remove multi-boxing and Multi-accounts from the equation, you are left with the number of people who play the game, That number won't be nearly as impressive as subscriptions.
GW1 wasn't an MMORPG
GW2 has adopted a bit of vertical progression and players still complain there isn't enough to do at 80.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
The "end-game" is nothing more than a means to keep players invested in and playing a game. Due to development cycles for new content, abilities, classes, races, and so on; having players waste spend hours upon hours prepping for and experiencing "end-game" content is the easiest way for a developer to bide their time while they release new stuff.
Is there too much focus on "end-game"? The answer is a resounding YES. Far too often, developers drop the ball on story, mechanics, and character advancement/customization for the sake of having a "fun" end-game.
As for why WOW and EQ kept players for years instead of months, there is no clear winner here. It is a combination of things:
Raquelis in various games
Played: Everything
Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6
Wants: The World
Anticipating: Everquest Next Crowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
May be that is it. I don't see how going through the same wagon ride the 30th time can still be entertaining unless you can magically imbue amnesia on yourself.
There is no such thing as the "new character" .. it is just a part of you. You can't pretend you have not ridden the wagon before (to yourself, yes, you can pretend to others) unless you can erase your own memory.
Game characters are not real people. They are just a way to entertain us.