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What made EQ, "EQ" and how could EQN follow suit?
Aelious
Member RarePosts: 3,521
Was it the combat system?
Was it the artstyle?
Was it the vast world?
The need for friends?
EverQuest had more than a few features to set it apart even today. While it's obvious that EQN has many more "new" features what at its core does it need to capture the feeling of its predecessors? Is it possible to create an experience both vets of the original franchise and new players to the genre can enjoy along with those all along the spectrum?
What made EverQuest, EverQuest?
Comments
-Meaningful character progression outside of a couple weeks/months. New games are designed so the endgame is the real game, so leveling is super fast. In addition, once you get their your character progression is over. Gear only from then out. In EQ leveling was a true journey that took months, even years. And with Luclin, max level didn't mean you were done progressing, AAs made it so everything you did was still progressing your character.
-The class system and group mechanics. Many people think Trinity is tank/heals/dps. This is false, the real holy trinity was warrior, cleric, enchanter. You needed more than a tank and healer for EQ, and dps was just assumed. However, where EQ was even better was you didn't necessarily need the 'holy trinity'. No enchanter? Fine, got a bard or monk to pull singles. You might still want slows, but a shaman could do that, sometimes even a beastlord. Hell my ranger every once in a while whipped out his epic to slow mobs. No tank? maybe a kite group. Different classes had different ways to shine. While my Ranger couldn't pull indoors, outdoors he was a pretty effective puller if no bard or monk was around. If an add showed up with no mezzer, my Ranger could also root it or pull it off a healer. I don't really get this sort of thing from newer games, especially since many of them allow you to completely change your character to fit the group, a s opposed to building the group around your abilities.
-the game world. Its places, its lore, its character. Some games do ok with this, but there are far too many Rifts out there with a very generic world with boring, underdeveloped races.
The thing that made EQ truly addictive was the challenge level, and the way that the load was spread across the players. This was a game that was difficult, and the way to overcome that difficulty was to work with other players. Sure, it had a level grind, gear grind, and RL learning curve, but all of those were trivial in comparison to its demands for social interaction. The (simple) solution for almost every problem, was another human.
I don't see this as an option for EQ Next, as the things that made EQ what it is, are also what made it a niche game.
Agreed on all accounts and the one aspect that I think will not be in EQN is the slower pacing. In fact, EQN looks to have faster combat that most MMOs right now. To offset this would be built in VoIP systems including SoEMote but I know some people don't like VoIP as it ruins immersion.
EQN may be a step forward regarding the world and NPC factions. The StoryBricks video, thought very hard to hear at times, would make those favoring NPC factions and their effects very excited. Dave said they would redo that panel with more information but no idea when ("Soon" tm).
The "Hero Effect" may be weird in EQN. While each player may have their own story it's yet to be seen how much of an impact one player alone can have at any one point. Some of the larger objectives, such as a faction taking over a "swatch" of area, shown in the SB video looked to be over time. The thing I do like that we've been told is that the larger world effects will take many players over time to accomplish and in some cases, like the faction struggles, will be slightly out of our control.
The devs have already stated that the first iteration of combat is a little too fast so it will change. How much it will change relies upon feedback from Landmark and the player reasons for change.
Pretty much everything you listed but in general if I had to boil it down I would mainly say it was the vast world and traversing it prior to the implementation of fast travel.
It was a journey, quite a journey and meeting someone when you were in dire need of help in the middle of nowhere created an amazing sense of adventure. Sometimes you would logout simply out of frustration "also the need to go to work" only to login on the weekends at about midnight or so and find out that some players were ACTUALLY AROUND the area you were having troubles at and joining in on the fun and having a grand adventure.......nothing can compare to that feeling.....nothing.
In this day of instant gratification that magic has been lost and I long for the day a developer creates a vast world that has players that are both patient and vigilant, though when you offer the players "fast travel" and "quick progression" they will use it and you will lose that other playerbase, it's going to take a developer to focus on that type of player for it to be successful and in turn it will bring other types of players.
You can't say "well just play it the other way and don't use fast travel", cause everyone else does and the immersion is lost and that old way doesn't exist cause if fast travel is there players will use it. The game needs to be designed to be vast and about the journey and exploration for the game to retain a hardcore player base and NOT change the formula!
There is nothing saying that a game couldn't be created this way in this day and be made popular again with next gen graphics and combat revisions. It just needs to happen and hopefully it will before I croak.
Hell, I would still play EQ to this day if they hadn't dumbed-down EVERYTHING! I can say that for a FACT!
EQN isn't going to follow suit.
Enjoy your theoretical discussion.
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I'm fairly certain SOE has moved on from the playerbase that made EQ what it was. There's just not enough of them to support a new MMO in the quantity they'd like. No, they're going after the MOBA crowd and trying to attract new and younger fans.
I obviously don't agree with this direction but it makes financial sense.
That's why I started this thread as it has already evolved into more than just a theoretical discussion. When I see an opinion like yours I immediately ask myself why someone feels like this. EverQuest is a collection of features and lore set into a world, just like any other MMO. It was the specifics of its features and the world that gave EQ a certain feeling to those who did, and may still, play.
EQN will not be an EQ clone but that doesn't mean the overall play of its feature set will be much different in spirit. Already I've seen equivalents and even improvements in the answers listed in this thread.
Excuse me? You have seen improvements? Where?
Nothing discussed in this thread will have any bearing on the game itself. What are you talking about?
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
I did play it and enjoyed it very much. We all can take something away from EQ in what we liked but things like the vast, explorable world, meaningful factions and focus on CC are being shown in EQN. In some cases taken farther. What things do you think are missing from what we know about EQN that make it nothing like EQ?
An AI system that has NPC factions changing areas of the world via player action pressures? The ability to gain not only classes but carry influence with you that make other NPCs act differently towards you based upon your actions? A world that is truly and realistically three dimensional?
The reason that I said the discussion was not just theoretical is because enough has been shown or talked about EQN to make comparisons and contrasts. I'm not expecting the game to change because of this thread of course.
Exactly this ... huge world and a pace where you could take two hours to do something and it was enough. Now, people wanna do 20 cheap quests in an hour or they get bored.
Well here is my theory and the last I will say on this matter.
This will all lead to someone saying.....why don't we just update EQ and call it EQNext?
End of discussion.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Great responses so far.
I think the days of games like EQ are dead and gone. EQ had slower leveling, bad stuff happened when you died and the sense of community was rather strong. It also did not subscribe to the idea where the players in the game > the world they played in. Players in that game were not, for lack of a better term, superheros. They were adventurers who often had to rely on one another to get the job done. The world was dangerous and it wasn't there just to level the payers and give out loot.
Modern MMO's for better or worse (depending on where you fall) do not, and will not go back to that. The idea now is to reach the largest group of players you can, and to that end, you have to have a game accessible to the largest number of people even if it means compromising in other areas. I don't like it, but I'm also a realist. The reality is many of us (at least in my circle) couldn't devote nearly the time we used to on games like EQ, so it's a double edges sword. It's great that leveling is a little faster in todays MMO world, but that also seems to affect every other part of the game.
So EQnext might be able to get that sense of community, but probably won't hit any of the other points. The truth is, no modern MMO is going to go back there again, so it's not a knock on EQnext, it's just that the genre seems to have moved on from that style of gameplay and game (in my view),
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To answer a previous question, what made EQ... EQ? The adventure would be my answer. Which is why I'm excited for EQN. They're clearly bringing back that sense of adventure and a vast world to explore and be a part with, without resorting to cloning tired mechanics and elements from over a decade ago.
Horizontal progression and emergent AI, with proceedurly generated content is going to really appeal to people who want to play a real RPG that focuses on adventuring in a living world. Gone will be those silly level and gear barriers preventing people from socializing and traveling around the world freely. Heroic movements will make on foot travel actually fun. Horizontal progression will make free-roaming travel an actual interesting and rewording part of the game.
When it comes right down to it, EQN is the only game that's even attempted at giving us a real RPG adventure experience. Everything else over the past 10 years have been nothing more than vertical progression, zone-hoping, quest hub chasers where everyone just wants to race to "end game" and farm retarded raid events over and over again just so you can farm gear, so that you can be ready to farm the next toughest raid event when the next expansion comes out. Absolutely terrible.
EQN is the mnost fascinating looking MMO in production specifically because it's not doing the same old tired nonsense. People who can't see this are blind, or simply not paying attention.
Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL
I suggest wait and see what really is launched and HOW is unfolds.. I have yet to ever see a product and service ever meet the hype the marketing promoted..
This sir was the best answer...
May I also add that its itemization was so much more superior then most games now... ITEMS MEANT SOMETHING. Blade of Carnage, Scepter of Destruction, Rubicite Breastplate (warrior bp with clicky invis) where UNIQUE!
Upgrades to these items didn't just come in some "content patch" and made them invalid....
Single most memorable quest (next to weapon epics) was the Eye Patch of Plunder quest. Took a lot of time to finish but the reward WAS WORTH IT and was valuable for a LONG TIME.
Yes, games live up to the hype all the time. Especially when you don't use a wild imagination and extrapolate on features they advertise. My advice to you is to watch more videos and read reddit. You seem to be very confused on what a lot of these features mean and you seem to not even know about all the features the game will have.
Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL
This is another great reason why I'm loving how EQN's devs are approaching character progression and gear. Gear you earn will always be useful because it's about customization. Different, not "better". You mention some items that were nice to keep for a long time, but you forget that there were hundreds, thousands of gear pieces that were made trivial after expansions were released. Plane of Fear gear was great and some pieces could last even as Kunark kicked off, but most of it was outdated. Then Velious came along and faction gear was magnitudes better than anything from original EQ / Kunark.... etc etc.
So EQ had some* pieces that lasted, but a lot of them didn't. This is why EQN is the better approach to getting gear. It won't be stat sticks. It will have effects that benefit certain classes / builds better than others. It's about customization and character building. Not +stat treadmills that make old items irrelevant.
Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL
Unless there has been more recent information Dave mentioned that gearing to the next "tier" would take "a week to a few weeks" to gain, presumably taking longer and you went up in tiers. With five tiers that's a minimum 5 weeks, maximum 15 weeks to be "max" for a single class. This of course doesn't take into account specializing your gear to a certain play style within a class.
This is good IMO considering one can gain up to 40 classes at launch as you play and achieve/earn them. Those only wanting to play a single class alone may be relegated to gaining more classes for their secondary abilities as a method of progression (if they don't need different gear to accommodate different secondary abilities). If that's the case, how long would it take to earn those classes?
Someone who wants to play a handful or all of the classes would have a much longer consumption time. Lets group the classes into presumably four "archetypes" with each having gear (cloth, leather, chain, plate). That's still 20 weeks minimum, 60 weeks maximum just in acquiring top tier gear. This again doesn't take into account getting gear that has the effects you want for the way you want to play a particular class.
This is important because EQ had a very long progression path and though it was done with one single class/build it gave you a sense of identity with your character. I think this can also be the case with EQN though this time the classes and roles may change but the core character stays the same.
The most recent information on this states that capping out "Tier 5" takes about a week or so (faster if you're hardcore / experienced in the game and knock it out with focus). But that can really add up if you're aiming for getting 20 or 30 classes, and then get specialized gear for most of them.
But ya, Tier 5 just means you basically have 12 of the skills for a class unlocked and ready to go. Which from unlocking the class to Tier 5 is a very, very quick process. Remember, they want the entire world to be "end game", so there is a lot less emphasis on traditional "progression" and more emphasis on adventuring, doing quests and events to unlock new classes and finding very specific, rare pieces of gear to tweak your character.
It's not a vertical grinder.
Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL
What is the source for the information? I sure hope they don't do that as It would be a negative to gain 5 tiers of gear for a single class in a week or so.