I have been thinking a lot about what disappoints me, and to a large extent it all comes back to the loss of a feeling of community and I think I've finally figured out what I mean by that. In the old days there was a sense that everyone is eager to play this game (there were few Real choices), I often find myself logging into games I enjoy the mechanics of only to find a nagging feeling that I am playing with outcasts, the unconnected; in the days yore (if you will), it was a sense of being in the in-crowd, the cutting edge, the cool.
I think this is exactly why games that come out nowadays are really hot for a month and then die. That's all the material available to be considered cutting edge, especially with fact there are a lot of options nowadays. There is no one sense that this is the best, that this is where all the innovation is happening. It just feels mundane, average, and so all the whining and all the idiots start to make you feel like the cool kids must be elsewhere. Of course the issue is you know in reality they are not anywhere -- let alone everywhere.
(sums up my experience at the moment -- hope it helps someone -- me it depresses).
Damn, this is an insightful post Uproar! I have felt/thought exactly the same thing. I think you are onto something here. The initial month or two following release of new MMOs do seem to reclaim the feeling of MMOs of old. Indeed, after just a few days of playing ESO during open beta I was so excited -- so convinced that the thrill of the old MMO was back -- that I just signed up for a six month subscription . . . within a few weeks after release I was wondering how I could have been so delusional. This is a very common experience. The opening period feels exciting, cutting edge, and the community is strong and people are all learning to play the game together. A couple months later it is all but dead.
What separated the old games from new was that this period of cutting-edge-ness lasted for years, whereas now it lasts for a month, if that. If anything, we are at the point where the real exciting period -- where everyone is talking about the game, glued to youtube videos and fervently discussing the game on forums -- all takes place during beta . . . release is actually where the game goes to die. Look at ArcheAge, lot of hype and excitement . . . how long do you think this will last post release? The real period during which MMOs thrive these days is pre-release!
Is this because the games are bad, or is something else going on here? Do the games just suddenly become bad the moment they are released? Or are the beta testers all delusional? Are MMOs suffering from the Twitterfication of society?
In 1.5 years i played up to levelcap in four different games and I experienced pretty much the same gameplay in all four games, and since then I haven't bought any MMO's. I did beta for a bunch of MMO's, but it was pretty much the same thing, so I simply skipped them.
I don't want another 100 hours singleplayer MMO experience, and I don't want the same old endgame (or the unfinished endgame). I am hoping for the MMO that makes it different and that I can spend 500+ hours on so I can take part in an MMO community again. Until then I will play singleplayer and coop games.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
I think some of the problem is that new MMO's are designed for the new generation and they are much different from the old timers. They have a high expectation of success but give up easily, at times even throwing a tantrum, stating something is not fair or "rage quitting." Focus has also moved towards individual accomplishments and fancy shiny items.
For me, games like UO and Shadowbane were so much fun because guilds were very important. We all worked towards a common goal, helped our smith mine, chopped wood or pitched in for a tower. If you got in trouble you knew you could count on your buddies to come to your aid and if yo happened to get looted you picked yourself up, re-equipped and vowed to get that jerk at the crossroads, next time.
I agree, it isn't moving forward, it is stagnant, but going backwards is never the answer and old-school fans don't want it to move forward, they want to go back and live in 1999. That's gone and it's never coming back. People need to figure that out and deal with it. The MMO genre isn't going to change to a sandbox approach until it's proven that sandboxes make as much, if not more money than theme parks. So far, the data doesn't support that.
They shouldn't all take a sandbox or a themepark approach. They should target a reasonably large underserved audience. Just like you wouldn't ever see just one type of movie or one type of book coming out. No game will ever dominate the market and make most people happy the way WoW did a few years ago. Those days are as gone as the 1999 days. I think the future is in a wider variety of games serving different market segments rather than one size fits all.
Now I want to mention one thing that has greatly limited my ability to enjoy modern MMOs and that is what I will call "the problem of accumulation." That is to say, MMOs are all designed such that the longer you play, the more stuff you get, the more wealth you get, the more power you get, the more knowledge you get -- and overall this is entirely intimidating to a new prospective player. After a MMO has been out for some time I find it exceedingly hard to even consider playing it because of this. MMOs fundamentally suffer from an ability to pull in new players as rapidly as they lose old players. Players rush to the end and get bored, but new players are too intimidated to try the game for fear of being far behind everyone else.
The reason beta is the time games feel so fresh, exciting, and cutting edge is in part because the game is new, but also because beta promises a reset. This mechanism of wiping the slate clean and letting everyone have another go at it collectively stops the inevitable entropy that sets in overtime and exponentially overwhelms games post-release. Perhaps if released games had build in resets, with each reset some of the initial magic would be reclaimed.
What I remember most about the old games is that they felt like a collective adventure . . . not merely a collective persistent world. The problem with modern MMOs is that everyone has the collective adventure (even despite the solo-oriented nature of these games) for the first month because the game is new, we share our experiences and learn collectively together . . . and then after a month or so everyone sort of goes their own way, leaving a world that never changes feeling empty and dead. The goal of the MMO is not MERELY to have a shared world, with everyone doing their own thing, but to have a SHARED adventure. We recreate the power of MMOs, as a community, every time a new MMO comes out. But modern MMOs don't take advantage of this energy and fail to harness or sustain it. It is as if they actively attempt to break up the power and magic that comes from the community. There is something about the new MMO that recaptures what gamers are looking for in MMOs, which is one reason so many of us go from game to game, just to experience that short period where the game is fresh and exciting and the community is strong.
Vanguard was the closest thing to what I want in an mmo. I was subbed to it up until they announced they were closing it.
In truth? I just want morrowind on online. And by that I mean, no quest markers, very few fast travel hubs, a lot of exploration.
for my taste, more action combat but at this point I'd settle for tab target as well.
Very similar for me. I enjoyed Morrowind slightly more than Oblivion and Skyrim (though I still liked them) due in part to faction rep and the fact you could kill an NPC related to quests and be forever locked from completing them. Real consequences to choices made.
And who didn't like to levitate around?!
Vanguard also close to my main mmo had I not had friends playing another mmo at the time. I played maybe a year of VG but time constraints and other games steered me away from paying a sub and playing it.
There are a lot of people who say that's what they want, with the possible exception of graphics which I'm sure they want updated, although there are people out there who want a 2.5D format back too. I don't get that, but to each their own. You might as well be playing old arcade games where you're a blue dot running away from a red dot. Unfortunately, I think we've learned a lot from the old games and made vastly superior games thereafter. Lots of people have rose-colored nostalgia glasses, they remember how great it was, back when these were the only games that there were and it was fun and new and exciting, they don't remember how much of a time-sink these games were, how frustrating they were, etc. I think some people are just being stubborn, they want the good old days to come back and will simply refuse to admit just how bad they really were.
I am so sick of the rose tinted glasses argument. I still play EVE and UO to this day and negates that theory that I dont know what I want and i dont know how much of a "timesink" those games were. Stop invalidating our opinions on what games we like and what gameplay we like by saying we are just acting on nostalgia or wearing some obscuring device because its just insulting at this point. I know what i like i know what I want and i know what i still play and thats that.
I wondered about this question many times. I don't know the answer. But for me I think it's a mix of several things: novelty wearing off and things generally being lackluster, not enough time to play like I used to (5 day raiding schedule with Karazhan and ZA on the off-nights sup), and not having enough energy to play when I do have the time (I recently tried doing hard modes in WoW 2 days/week, and it felt like such a chore; when the guild fell apart I felt a rush of relief and unsubbed). So who knows, maybe I am just too bored, too old, and too exhausted with rl stuff to enjoy MMOs anymore.
Originally posted by Distopia I must ask though what's up with the statement that only games that focus on more than killing are "real games"?
That was unfair on my part. A "real game" is whatever a player wants.
However, MMOs are anything but MMOs anymore. A lot of players just do not want to be "bothered" by other players. For some reason, they look to MMOs. A Real MMO, in my opinion, has players interacting (not necessarily killing) with each other, not ignoring them or placing their name on a list that throws them randomly together with other players. A lot of the MMO experience is dealing with other players, good, bad, or indifferent.
Where did the non-combat skills go? Even the ones they have (crafting) contribute to combat. Where are the learnable languages? Where is the Tracking skill? Direction Sense is no longer needed thanks to maps, compasses, and quest markers.
If someone believes that today's MMOs are "real MMOs", there is nothing I can say to change their minds.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by jusomdude I think as long as people aren't developing their own games they're always gonna be like..."Wouldn't it be cool if such and such was in this game"?Sometimes you have to learn to settle for what is available, or what meets most of your desired features, unless you go and develop your own game with your few extra elements.It's magnitudes easier to criticize someone elses work than it is to create quality work of your own.
It is not that far of a stretch to think about features that were in MMORPGs a decade ago, but are now gone. A lot of those features were "not perfect", but thinking of their improvement with today's technology is a not a "grand hope."
But then I look at the players playing today and realize why. Many of them believe they are really playing an MMO when they are just playing an online single player game that uses the Internet for DRM.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar I would say must of the world agrees with me and finds the wider variety of different mmorpg games very nice. What they do wish is that the ones that are different from mainstream were higher quality which is a very understandable desire.And yes they do want more variety. I want more. That doesn't mean we don't have a lot now.
I may not be "the world", but definitely agree. I actually want more diversity, especially in the realms of old MMORPG features, where RPG was the main course, not saving the world by killing everything in sight.
Yes, you can list some MMOs that fit the bill. Yes, you can say, "Why aren't you playing X game?" Well, for many varied reasons. There is more to an MMORPG than 1 or 2 features. The most important, to me, is how those features fit together. A game is more than the sum of its features. It is how those features work together. A lot of great crafting MMOs also have PvP. No thank you. Another one, ATitD, has very little to do other than crafting (I think, though could be wrong). ArcheAge has crafting, housing, and even ships. And... PvP.
Even MMOs that call themselves "old school" seldom deliver, or they see old school in a different way then I remember.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Sovrath I "kind of did".Vanguard was the closest thing to what I want in an mmo. I was subbed to it up until they announced they were closing it.In truth? I just want morrowind on online. And by that I mean, no quest markers, very few fast travel hubs, a lot of exploration.for my taste, more action combat but at this point I'd settle for tab target as well.
Sign me up! I am unsure about the "action combat", but Morrowind handled that by adding in random number generation.
Give me Morrowind's attributes and skills, good journal, limited fast travel, great exploration with fear of death, great lore, deep spellcraft, useful speechcraft, and good variety of weapons/armors. No need to be the savior of the world, though
Tweak and smooth things out to fit an MMORPG playstyle and I am there
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I want to play another fantasy based MMO about as much as I want a kick in the balls.
I understand (and agree) that games had more depth and where better in the beginning of the MMO industry and the fact that we are not even one real life generation away from that era and we are already wishing for the good old days in an industry that is built with technology is good evidence that something in this space is very wrong.
with that said, going back rarely works..going forward in RADICAL ways never done before is the way to go. which is why I am still waiting to plant my farm in the old west while doing train robberies at night...hello? fucking hello?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
When I watched a video here at MMORPG.COM hosting a panel at a gaming conference (I'll be damened if I can recall the link either) Anyway, the panel hosted the development team from Wildstar. And the 1st question that was asked was "What are you doing to be different?"
Wildstar's answer? "We're making combat more fun" I knew right then and there, it was the wrong answer. You cannot make something that players will spend hours and hours and hours (This can go one but I'll stop the "and hours" here. "more fun" It gets old. No matter how exciting it initially is, it gets old. Combat needs to be fluid and intuitive, it should not be cumbersome, but the focus in these latest MMOs with a total focus on combat is completely out of touch. It will get boring. There needs to be other things in the game to hold players to it. MMOs need options. They need METAs.
But now, all they are is combat. If you aren't fighting something, you really aren't progressing in any significant way. There's no depth.
This brings me to my question to the title of this thread. How many game are there to choose from that are like that or don't have bad business models?
I don't think there are as many games to choose from as the OP does.
When I watched a video here at MMORPG.COM hosting a panel at a gaming conference (I'll be damened if I can recall the link either) Anyway, the panel hosted the development team from Wildstar. And the 1st question that was asked was "What are you doing to be different?"
Wildstar's answer? "We're making combat more fun" I knew right then and there, it was the wrong answer. You cannot make something that players will spend hours and hours and hours (This can go one but I'll stop the "and hours" here. "more fun" It gets old. No matter how exciting it initially is, it gets old. Combat needs to be fluid and intuitive, it should not be cumbersome, but the focus in these latest MMOs with a total focus on combat is completely out of touch. It will get boring. There needs to be other things in the game to hold players to it. MMOs need options. They need METAs.
But now, all they are is combat. If you aren't fighting something, you really aren't progressing in any significant way. There's no depth.
This brings me to my question to the title of this thread. How many game are there to choose from that are like that or don't have bad business models?
I don't think there are as many games to choose from as the OP does.
yup I saw that too. I left the room after hearing that...what a lame it was...
developers....hint...when someone asks you what are you going to do new you might want to think about not even saying the word combat.
in fact as I recall given the context of that conversation, WildStars response was by far the worst.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Originally posted by GeezerGamer When I watched a video here at MMORPG.COM hosting a panel at a gaming conference (I'll be damened if I can recall the link either) Anyway, the panel hosted the development team from Wildstar. And the 1st question that was asked was "What are you doing to be different?"Wildstar's answer? "We're making combat more fun" I knew right then and there, it was the wrong answer. You cannot make something that players will spend hours and hours and hours (This can go one but I'll stop the "and hours" here. "more fun" It gets old. No matter how exciting it initially is, it gets old. Combat needs to be fluid and intuitive, it should not be cumbersome, but the focus in these latest MMOs with a total focus on combat is completely out of touch. It will get boring. There needs to be other things in the game to hold players to it. MMOs need options. They need METAs. But now, all they are is combat. If you aren't fighting something, you really aren't progressing in any significant way. There's no depth.This brings me to my question to the title of this thread. How many game are there to choose from that are like that or don't have bad business models?I don't think there are as many games to choose from as the OP does.
Agreed. Even if MMOs have "other activities", more than likely they are only included to make combat more efficient.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
We have all seen the threads on how this game sucks or this game are the best since UO, and everything in the between.
We who have played MMOs for 10-15 years always have fond memories when we played in the "old" days and we are all looking for the next big thing that will take us back to that forgotten era, but when a new MMO comes along, we find faults in it.
So my question is this why are we and you never content with the MMOs that comes along every year? I mean for all you old farts next gen game should be in the holodeck but even then I doubt you would find rest and a home, you will find something to complain about.
So why has it come to this?
Simply put few, if any, of the next gen MMOs are actually different games. They're nearly all the same with a different skin. There's a reason I've been hooked on Minecraft for almost 3 years now. It is almost everything I want from an MMO, except for the Massively part.
Originally posted by Distopia I must ask though what's up with the statement that only games that focus on more than killing are "real games"?
That was unfair on my part. A "real game" is whatever a player wants.
However, MMOs are anything but MMOs anymore. A lot of players just do not want to be "bothered" by other players. For some reason, they look to MMOs. A Real MMO, in my opinion, has players interacting (not necessarily killing) with each other, not ignoring them or placing their name on a list that throws them randomly together with other players. A lot of the MMO experience is dealing with other players, good, bad, or indifferent.
Where did the non-combat skills go? Even the ones they have (crafting) contribute to combat. Where are the learnable languages? Where is the Tracking skill? Direction Sense is no longer needed thanks to maps, compasses, and quest markers.
If someone believes that today's MMOs are "real MMOs", there is nothing I can say to change their minds.
Fair enough, I don't really disagree with your points here.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by GeezerGamer When I watched a video here at MMORPG.COM hosting a panel at a gaming conference (I'll be damened if I can recall the link either) Anyway, the panel hosted the development team from Wildstar. And the 1st question that was asked was "What are you doing to be different?"
Wildstar's answer? "We're making combat more fun" I knew right then and there, it was the wrong answer. You cannot make something that players will spend hours and hours and hours (This can go one but I'll stop the "and hours" here. "more fun" It gets old. No matter how exciting it initially is, it gets old. Combat needs to be fluid and intuitive, it should not be cumbersome, but the focus in these latest MMOs with a total focus on combat is completely out of touch. It will get boring. There needs to be other things in the game to hold players to it. MMOs need options. They need METAs.
But now, all they are is combat. If you aren't fighting something, you really aren't progressing in any significant way. There's no depth.
This brings me to my question to the title of this thread. How many game are there to choose from that are like that or don't have bad business models?
I don't think there are as many games to choose from as the OP does.
Agreed. Even if MMOs have "other activities", more than likely they are only included to make combat more efficient.
You mean like in WoW where you now choose your crafting skills based on your role and spec and the specific stat bonuses they provide?
Like Enhancement Shaman learning Engineering for no other reason than the Synapse Spring AGI buff. What's the point of Engineering then?
Originally posted by GeezerGamer When I watched a video here at MMORPG.COM hosting a panel at a gaming conference (I'll be damened if I can recall the link either) Anyway, the panel hosted the development team from Wildstar. And the 1st question that was asked was "What are you doing to be different?"
Wildstar's answer? "We're making combat more fun" I knew right then and there, it was the wrong answer. You cannot make something that players will spend hours and hours and hours (This can go one but I'll stop the "and hours" here. "more fun" It gets old. No matter how exciting it initially is, it gets old. Combat needs to be fluid and intuitive, it should not be cumbersome, but the focus in these latest MMOs with a total focus on combat is completely out of touch. It will get boring. There needs to be other things in the game to hold players to it. MMOs need options. They need METAs.
But now, all they are is combat. If you aren't fighting something, you really aren't progressing in any significant way. There's no depth.
This brings me to my question to the title of this thread. How many game are there to choose from that are like that or don't have bad business models?
I don't think there are as many games to choose from as the OP does.
Agreed. Even if MMOs have "other activities", more than likely they are only included to make combat more efficient.
You mean like in WoW where you now choose your crafting skills based on your role and spec and the specific stat bonuses they provide?
Like Enhancement Shaman learning Engineering for no other reason than the Synapse Spring AGI buff. What's the point of Engineering then?
what I try to explain to people is this.
games are an art medium similar to print and video. However, there is a larger variety of creativity possible with games.
As a result there should (eventually) be as much variety in gaming as there are in fiction books and movies.
granted the tech is young but we should be making more progress than we have by now.
What I find interesting is that on average it appears games cost as much or less than movies to make but yet the desire for risk is much lower.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
That was unfair on my part. A "real game" is whatever a player wants.
However, MMOs are anything but MMOs anymore. A lot of players just do not want to be "bothered" by other players. For some reason, they look to MMOs. A Real MMO, in my opinion, has players interacting (not necessarily killing) with each other, not ignoring them or placing their name on a list that throws them randomly together with other players. A lot of the MMO experience is dealing with other players, good, bad, or indifferent.
Where did the non-combat skills go? Even the ones they have (crafting) contribute to combat. Where are the learnable languages? Where is the Tracking skill? Direction Sense is no longer needed thanks to maps, compasses, and quest markers.
If someone believes that today's MMOs are "real MMOs", there is nothing I can say to change their minds.
Nope. In fact, it is a big assumption that most gamers care enough to distinguish a "real" MMO from a MMO. If it is a fun online to them, they probably don't care if it is a "real" MMO by some definition.
And yes, i don't want to be bothered with others (except may be my son). And to be honest, i don't care less if it is a MMO, an online game, or a SP game .. just that some MMO has interesting mechanics, and content, so I play it ... and if i have to bother with others, I probably won't.
I think for many people it's nostalgia. Reality tends to have a hard time competing with it.
While others fell in love with certain game mechanics/features that have fallen out of favor in today's modern MMOs, because they were too boring, too grindy, forced people to group or GTFO, etc...
i agree. over the past few years i have come across a number of studies related to memory. nostalgia does exist. memory in human beings is apparently notoriously interpretive if not downright fallible.
i do think there are game design decisions that are affecting older players. i just don't think that's the only, or even primary, issue here.
"There are at least two kinds of games. One could be called finite, the other infinite. A finite game is played for the purpose of winning, an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play." Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
I think for many people it's nostalgia. Reality tends to have a hard time competing with it.
While others fell in love with certain game mechanics/features that have fallen out of favor in today's modern MMOs, because they were too boring, too grindy, forced people to group or GTFO, etc...
i agree. over the past few years i have come across a number of studies related to memory. nostalgia does exist. memory in human beings is apparently notoriously interpretive if not downright fallible.
i do think there are game design decisions that are affecting older players. i just don't think that's the only, or even primary, issue here.
Absolutely. Think on first loves, first car, etc. etc. It's not an 'old gamer' vs 'new gamer' but whether the individual can adapt to the changes brought forth to their life. In games, or anything else.
Comments
Damn, this is an insightful post Uproar! I have felt/thought exactly the same thing. I think you are onto something here. The initial month or two following release of new MMOs do seem to reclaim the feeling of MMOs of old. Indeed, after just a few days of playing ESO during open beta I was so excited -- so convinced that the thrill of the old MMO was back -- that I just signed up for a six month subscription . . . within a few weeks after release I was wondering how I could have been so delusional. This is a very common experience. The opening period feels exciting, cutting edge, and the community is strong and people are all learning to play the game together. A couple months later it is all but dead.
What separated the old games from new was that this period of cutting-edge-ness lasted for years, whereas now it lasts for a month, if that. If anything, we are at the point where the real exciting period -- where everyone is talking about the game, glued to youtube videos and fervently discussing the game on forums -- all takes place during beta . . . release is actually where the game goes to die. Look at ArcheAge, lot of hype and excitement . . . how long do you think this will last post release? The real period during which MMOs thrive these days is pre-release!
Is this because the games are bad, or is something else going on here? Do the games just suddenly become bad the moment they are released? Or are the beta testers all delusional? Are MMOs suffering from the Twitterfication of society?
I have found games, but they simply didn't last.
In 1.5 years i played up to levelcap in four different games and I experienced pretty much the same gameplay in all four games, and since then I haven't bought any MMO's. I did beta for a bunch of MMO's, but it was pretty much the same thing, so I simply skipped them.
I don't want another 100 hours singleplayer MMO experience, and I don't want the same old endgame (or the unfinished endgame). I am hoping for the MMO that makes it different and that I can spend 500+ hours on so I can take part in an MMO community again. Until then I will play singleplayer and coop games.
I think some of the problem is that new MMO's are designed for the new generation and they are much different from the old timers. They have a high expectation of success but give up easily, at times even throwing a tantrum, stating something is not fair or "rage quitting." Focus has also moved towards individual accomplishments and fancy shiny items.
For me, games like UO and Shadowbane were so much fun because guilds were very important. We all worked towards a common goal, helped our smith mine, chopped wood or pitched in for a tower. If you got in trouble you knew you could count on your buddies to come to your aid and if yo happened to get looted you picked yourself up, re-equipped and vowed to get that jerk at the crossroads, next time.
They shouldn't all take a sandbox or a themepark approach. They should target a reasonably large underserved audience. Just like you wouldn't ever see just one type of movie or one type of book coming out. No game will ever dominate the market and make most people happy the way WoW did a few years ago. Those days are as gone as the 1999 days. I think the future is in a wider variety of games serving different market segments rather than one size fits all.
I "kind of did".
Vanguard was the closest thing to what I want in an mmo. I was subbed to it up until they announced they were closing it.
In truth? I just want morrowind on online. And by that I mean, no quest markers, very few fast travel hubs, a lot of exploration.
for my taste, more action combat but at this point I'd settle for tab target as well.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Now I want to mention one thing that has greatly limited my ability to enjoy modern MMOs and that is what I will call "the problem of accumulation." That is to say, MMOs are all designed such that the longer you play, the more stuff you get, the more wealth you get, the more power you get, the more knowledge you get -- and overall this is entirely intimidating to a new prospective player. After a MMO has been out for some time I find it exceedingly hard to even consider playing it because of this. MMOs fundamentally suffer from an ability to pull in new players as rapidly as they lose old players. Players rush to the end and get bored, but new players are too intimidated to try the game for fear of being far behind everyone else.
The reason beta is the time games feel so fresh, exciting, and cutting edge is in part because the game is new, but also because beta promises a reset. This mechanism of wiping the slate clean and letting everyone have another go at it collectively stops the inevitable entropy that sets in overtime and exponentially overwhelms games post-release. Perhaps if released games had build in resets, with each reset some of the initial magic would be reclaimed.
What I remember most about the old games is that they felt like a collective adventure . . . not merely a collective persistent world. The problem with modern MMOs is that everyone has the collective adventure (even despite the solo-oriented nature of these games) for the first month because the game is new, we share our experiences and learn collectively together . . . and then after a month or so everyone sort of goes their own way, leaving a world that never changes feeling empty and dead. The goal of the MMO is not MERELY to have a shared world, with everyone doing their own thing, but to have a SHARED adventure. We recreate the power of MMOs, as a community, every time a new MMO comes out. But modern MMOs don't take advantage of this energy and fail to harness or sustain it. It is as if they actively attempt to break up the power and magic that comes from the community. There is something about the new MMO that recaptures what gamers are looking for in MMOs, which is one reason so many of us go from game to game, just to experience that short period where the game is fresh and exciting and the community is strong.
Very similar for me. I enjoyed Morrowind slightly more than Oblivion and Skyrim (though I still liked them) due in part to faction rep and the fact you could kill an NPC related to quests and be forever locked from completing them. Real consequences to choices made.
And who didn't like to levitate around?!
Vanguard also close to my main mmo had I not had friends playing another mmo at the time. I played maybe a year of VG but time constraints and other games steered me away from paying a sub and playing it.
I am so sick of the rose tinted glasses argument. I still play EVE and UO to this day and negates that theory that I dont know what I want and i dont know how much of a "timesink" those games were. Stop invalidating our opinions on what games we like and what gameplay we like by saying we are just acting on nostalgia or wearing some obscuring device because its just insulting at this point. I know what i like i know what I want and i know what i still play and thats that.
I wondered about this question many times. I don't know the answer. But for me I think it's a mix of several things: novelty wearing off and things generally being lackluster, not enough time to play like I used to (5 day raiding schedule with Karazhan and ZA on the off-nights sup), and not having enough energy to play when I do have the time (I recently tried doing hard modes in WoW 2 days/week, and it felt like such a chore; when the guild fell apart I felt a rush of relief and unsubbed). So who knows, maybe I am just too bored, too old, and too exhausted with rl stuff to enjoy MMOs anymore.
However, MMOs are anything but MMOs anymore. A lot of players just do not want to be "bothered" by other players. For some reason, they look to MMOs. A Real MMO, in my opinion, has players interacting (not necessarily killing) with each other, not ignoring them or placing their name on a list that throws them randomly together with other players. A lot of the MMO experience is dealing with other players, good, bad, or indifferent.
Where did the non-combat skills go? Even the ones they have (crafting) contribute to combat. Where are the learnable languages? Where is the Tracking skill? Direction Sense is no longer needed thanks to maps, compasses, and quest markers.
If someone believes that today's MMOs are "real MMOs", there is nothing I can say to change their minds.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
But then I look at the players playing today and realize why. Many of them believe they are really playing an MMO when they are just playing an online single player game that uses the Internet for DRM.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Yes, you can list some MMOs that fit the bill. Yes, you can say, "Why aren't you playing X game?" Well, for many varied reasons. There is more to an MMORPG than 1 or 2 features. The most important, to me, is how those features fit together. A game is more than the sum of its features. It is how those features work together. A lot of great crafting MMOs also have PvP. No thank you. Another one, ATitD, has very little to do other than crafting (I think, though could be wrong). ArcheAge has crafting, housing, and even ships. And... PvP.
Even MMOs that call themselves "old school" seldom deliver, or they see old school in a different way then I remember.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Give me Morrowind's attributes and skills, good journal, limited fast travel, great exploration with fear of death, great lore, deep spellcraft, useful speechcraft, and good variety of weapons/armors. No need to be the savior of the world, though
Tweak and smooth things out to fit an MMORPG playstyle and I am there
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I want to play another fantasy based MMO about as much as I want a kick in the balls.
I understand (and agree) that games had more depth and where better in the beginning of the MMO industry and the fact that we are not even one real life generation away from that era and we are already wishing for the good old days in an industry that is built with technology is good evidence that something in this space is very wrong.
with that said, going back rarely works..going forward in RADICAL ways never done before is the way to go. which is why I am still waiting to plant my farm in the old west while doing train robberies at night...hello? fucking hello?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
When I watched a video here at MMORPG.COM hosting a panel at a gaming conference (I'll be damened if I can recall the link either) Anyway, the panel hosted the development team from Wildstar. And the 1st question that was asked was "What are you doing to be different?"
Wildstar's answer? "We're making combat more fun" I knew right then and there, it was the wrong answer. You cannot make something that players will spend hours and hours and hours (This can go one but I'll stop the "and hours" here. "more fun" It gets old. No matter how exciting it initially is, it gets old. Combat needs to be fluid and intuitive, it should not be cumbersome, but the focus in these latest MMOs with a total focus on combat is completely out of touch. It will get boring. There needs to be other things in the game to hold players to it. MMOs need options. They need METAs.
But now, all they are is combat. If you aren't fighting something, you really aren't progressing in any significant way. There's no depth.
This brings me to my question to the title of this thread. How many game are there to choose from that are like that or don't have bad business models?
I don't think there are as many games to choose from as the OP does.
yup I saw that too. I left the room after hearing that...what a lame it was...
developers....hint...when someone asks you what are you going to do new you might want to think about not even saying the word combat.
in fact as I recall given the context of that conversation, WildStars response was by far the worst.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Simply put few, if any, of the next gen MMOs are actually different games. They're nearly all the same with a different skin. There's a reason I've been hooked on Minecraft for almost 3 years now. It is almost everything I want from an MMO, except for the Massively part.
Fair enough, I don't really disagree with your points here.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You mean like in WoW where you now choose your crafting skills based on your role and spec and the specific stat bonuses they provide?
Like Enhancement Shaman learning Engineering for no other reason than the Synapse Spring AGI buff. What's the point of Engineering then?
what I try to explain to people is this.
games are an art medium similar to print and video. However, there is a larger variety of creativity possible with games.
As a result there should (eventually) be as much variety in gaming as there are in fiction books and movies.
granted the tech is young but we should be making more progress than we have by now.
What I find interesting is that on average it appears games cost as much or less than movies to make but yet the desire for risk is much lower.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Nope. In fact, it is a big assumption that most gamers care enough to distinguish a "real" MMO from a MMO. If it is a fun online to them, they probably don't care if it is a "real" MMO by some definition.
And yes, i don't want to be bothered with others (except may be my son). And to be honest, i don't care less if it is a MMO, an online game, or a SP game .. just that some MMO has interesting mechanics, and content, so I play it ... and if i have to bother with others, I probably won't.
i agree. over the past few years i have come across a number of studies related to memory. nostalgia does exist. memory in human beings is apparently notoriously interpretive if not downright fallible.
i do think there are game design decisions that are affecting older players. i just don't think that's the only, or even primary, issue here.
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
Absolutely. Think on first loves, first car, etc. etc. It's not an 'old gamer' vs 'new gamer' but whether the individual can adapt to the changes brought forth to their life. In games, or anything else.
I found plenty of fun games to play. In fact, too many games .. too little time ....