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What I want to see from a Sandbox MMO
Tsumoro
Member UncommonPosts: 435
I love a themepark, I really do. You buy a ticket, you get on the ride, you enjoy all it's thrills and you go and enjoy the next ride. MMO's I play are typically like this, not saying they are bad, they are (providing you find the right one) very good.
But what do I want from a Sandbox experience? What would make it feel like a 'good' game? It's a hard question to answer mainly because I don't believe it's ever been achieved. It seems like developers and publishers treat this as if wading through murky water where the footing is too perilous to risk.
So, let me tell you what I would like to see, if you share the same sentiments, or even if you don't feel free to comment...
1) The World - Completely blank canvas world, large and expansive. Not everything has to be a vista, but relevant to its geometry and biome. No lore behind it, an essential eden with a clean slate with the players making up the lore as they go along, building its own world history.
There would be monsters, there would be dungeons there would be plenty to explore, with no maps to guide you where to go. To progress through the world you could buy maps other people had made, or books that detail enemy locations and weaknesses. A community effort of self exploration and discovery.
2) Completely player run - There would be no NPC's no Quest givers no nothing. You start into the world, you form a tribe, build a house, build a village, a town a city you have people that govern you have laws and people to enforce them all played by characters and their parts.
3) Death and Theft - There would be 100% PVP, if a player sees someone murder they can report it, this places a bounty, people can capture and subdue, law enforcement could place others in prisons, justly or not. People can be bandits, cultists or a faction of murderers and thieves working in the shadows.
There would be perma death, but your character is reincarnated and receive heirlooms of their prior life. Murderers and thieves get to a random chance to loot an item and gold from your corpse should they get the time to do so. In the game you would also age, looking to leave a legacy behind you and a portion of your stats enhance your next play through.
4) Buying and selling - People would form their own banks, their own auction houses and trade centers. People will discover recipes out in the world, perhaps they have high creativity and intellect which allows an encounter with a thick hided monster to get an idea for new armor. Making crafting more personal and rare.
5) Scripted fights - Let's say six cities have formed, the world throws a goblin army at you, they destroy a city they rebuild making their own strong hold. Do the other cities attack and split the spoils or do they leave it be. Perhaps a dragon could come in and lay waste to it all. Trackers could locate its lair and try and say the dragon. All of which is open world and non-instanced.
This is the kinda sandbox I would like to play, for its saints and its tyrants to really feel like you accomplished something in an immersion roleplayed world.
What do others think?
Comments
Sounds terrible to me. If raiding guilds have drama now, you expect other players to govern and enforce laws? I don't want that in a game ... in fact, i don't want to depend on others for my fun.
Pretty much the reason I'll instantly ignore the existence of games like that.
But all the more power to those that enjoy games like that. I have plenty of other MMOs that I enjoy and that aren't a griefer's heaven.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
Sounds more like a whiteroom for D&D than a game, but I'll admit that the PVP part is an instant turnoff. It's 2014 - since no one has decided to do something about the little kids and d-bags who make up the bulk of the pvp audience, inviting that audience into a game is like inviting Colonel Sanders into a chicken coop - could be profitable in the short run but will ultimately leave it a bloody mess devoid of all life.
Also, I do think some PVE elements are a good thing. I tend to think of them like a third party faction (sort-of like how in Risk with two players, there's a 'neutral' party only this party can have some limited AI behind it to strategize and so forth). All-playermade is simply asking for the game to be a huge high school popularity contest where you're either popular or hope you're the one person in a fifty-hex area who has what everyone needs, even though they'll only hate you more for having to come to you and get it. I like sandboxes in principle, but a sandbox with no toys in it is flat-out boring.
Edited to add: Although it should be obvious, it does bear stating that these are simply my opinions and if someone else likes them, that's great and I'd even be happy if someone made your type of game for you. Not all games are for all gamers.
My ideal sandbox would be a hybrid of Archeage and Elder Scrolls. The immersion and realism aspects of Elder Scrolls combined with deep crafting, player driven economy and world PvP.
With a VERY HIGH number of factions to choose from!!!! Some are allies, others are enemies, some are all against the world. The gameworld would need to be super large for this to work. All have certain risk and rewards with a political system that can create new allies or enemies including treaties, deals, trading, etc.
This would be similar to Guilds except built within the infrastructure of the existing world. This ensures that whatever faction you choose you will be placed within a capable faction to help you serve your needs/roleplay as you wish. Betrayal or Mutiny would also be possible within your faction.
I am thinking like 30 different factions with their own special features built into the game.
Looking forward to: Crowfall / Lost Ark / Black Desert Mobile
OP, you had me until #3. FFA PvP with permadeath. Could there be any worse feature to have in an MMO?
Granted not everyone's cup of tea - but the reasoning behind it is to create meaning to life and death behind your character. For example this is how I would see it... in my minds eye.
- Character logs in, gets ganked and killed and they rebirth.
- People witness the murder and report it.
- A bounty goes on their head and people seek to claim it, every day the bounty increases, or increases depending on their reputation.
- A group of adventurers looking to bring justice find the individual as being part of a faction who have a base of operation.
- Adventurers share the information with their guild, they rally together and storm the base.
- A very tense and epic encounter takes place.
- However due to an insider at the one of the guilds the leader gets away with all the loot
- The leader joins a guild, using his annon and his wealth to work his way up in the guild. He makes allies. He fabricates stories and evidence.
- His guild goes to war with others, taking land and resources.
- The city tries to combat this rogue nation and ends up with a massive pvp battle.
To me, that sounds like fun with a lore and history behind it giving everything merit.
You see, this system does work. I have played a game where it works albeit a long time ago. It was called Nexus: Kingdom of the Winds a Korean game.
A raiding guild would work like any other raiding guild, but they would have to abide by the laws of the land they are governed by or they can fight against those laws if they so wished. If the law is tyrannical expect people to rise up against it.
People are not going to report it, they are going to laugh about it!
And what makes you think you can have order in a lawless society??? How are you going to have law and justice when the gankers and outlaws outnumber you 10 to 1? Picture our society today without any kind of rules for behaviour, what do you think would happen?
Geezus why are you PvP'ers so naive about general human nature?
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
before I die I would like to see an MMO for grown ups in a 'simulator' style. first person view aspect that do not contain most of the features you guys have listed here.
no combat.
no quests
no classes
no leveling.
here is a sample of something I am thinking of Eurotruck Simulator + Professional Farmer as one huge open world
Kerbal Space Program + Space Engineers.
I doubt I will see that in my life time but I might settle for never reading about 'combat' in a discussion related to 'new ideas'
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I don't think I would like that game at all..
I believing gaming needs to move in the exact opposite direction. The gaming world has to get 'smarter' - I don't mean harder but smarter.
If we think of most MMOs like a giant game of AD and D - what I would like to see is a better dungeon master then the current server. In AD&D. players don't 'create' as so much 'contribute' to their own story because the DM reacts to what you do in real time. This is what I want to see more of in MMOs.
So for example - you can kill all NPCs - but you an help all NPCs too - and what you do with those NPCs will set the stage on how they react to you - or your group. This allows the emergent gaming that sandbox people want to see - and yet leaves room for the 'good stories' that scripted players like.
Getting rid of NPCs and game designers - is entirely the wrong direction to go in. Going back to the AD&D example people don't want to be the dungeon master AND the player. Most don't even want to be a dungeon master. What they do want is a DM that can do more then parrot out the same module time after time.
GW2 pretended they were going to do this - and EQNext is attempting too. But a more complex 'world' for an MMO is going to be a work in progress..Its going to take a while.. Going backwards to having players fill all the roles isn't going to make people happy.
I actually think EQ was onto something with its faction system. In that game for example it was possible to gain faction with people that generally hated and then you could do things for those NPCs. But game designers moved away from this idea and created a simplistic black and white world.
Every NPC should have needs wants desires goals - and the PCs should interact with them - and this should trigger various reactions from other NPCs - so on and so forth. This more 'realistic' feel should be the goal for designers. Instead people like the OP think they should just offload all their work to the players. I don't think that will fly..
No offense but I wouldn't touch that game with a 10 meter electromagnet. It's too hardcore and too oriented towards those who do nothing but play your game 24/7.
Different strokes for different folks.
Yea this is pretty much where my head is at as far as what should the next big advance in MMO gaming. We really have to up the AI of NPC characters in games in order to improve the experience for all gamers.
Give the NPC's the ability reason and adapt and yet not behave like total asshats the way they would in an OW PvP game and then you would have something I think even the PvP players would enjoy. Challenge and difficulty.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
While I'm not 100% on board with your idea I think the most importat impact of the post is those that are against you. Players who think that others should never impact their gameplay more or less ruin MMORPG. IF someone else can't change how you play the game then the game has no meaning pretty much. The results of the world needs to depend on multiple players and sometimes that result will be against your choice, that is a GOOD thing, not a bad one!.
You are correct. Most online games are violent-based.
However, you can always talk about puzzle games .... if you don't mind discussing SP games (there is little point to massively multiplayer for puzzle games).
Ender, in your world that is a good thing, in my world ( and Narius I think) that is a bad thing.
Oh and trying to put the blame on all of us for ruining MMO's ....... that was a nice touch.
Still can't accept that your little world is the minority, can you?
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
It's why it will only ever get made by an indie company that hardly anyone will ever touch.
OP: if you think about it less as an AAA title and more of a smaller (pixel art?) game, with fast cycles, maybe it wouldnt be so hard to make. Let's say, 1 hour matches. Players are thrown into the map and immediately start to socialize (make ties/families), organize to build common structures, conquer further. Disputes arise etc. At the end of the match the world blows, everyone who was still alive dies, everybody gets some XP to buy eternal perks etc.
As a full scale MMO I cannot see it working. With the level of freedom you are giving this would be griefed to oblivion pretty fast.
Unfortunately in the real world what happens is you get the typical problem of PK players ganking every chance they get, griefing and the usual attrocious behaviour found in FFA systems, resulting in low populations and a struggling game.
Every MMO that calls itself a sandbox makes this same mistake; they think they have to have FFA PvP and end up ghost towns limping along until they get put out of their misery.
The tired old argument that it's more realistic is such BS. Show me anywhere in the civilised world where you can walk out of your house and just kill someone. Doesn't happen. In any game, players won't play by your rules, they'll get away with whatever they can and then some, they'll bend systems to the breaking point just to see what happens and PK'ers will PK.
The only place your MMO will exist is in your mind's eye, because as soon as you introduce other players into that world, it's a whole new ball game.
oh course. many ways.
one way is to have pvp only with declared war between two clans or two alliances.
once in war you cant leave clan, so there is the possiblity that during that time you have to worry about ganking but that is all.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
The OP's description sounds almost exactly like Xsyon. It was fun at first, finding recipe's, finding mats, building your own village, exploring, world PvP, etc.
But it got boring fast. What do you do once you've built all your buildings? Found mats and crafted all the tools and weapons you need? Explored the world around you?
It boils down to open world PvP, which is not a sandbox, and the inevitable ganking.
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2024: 47 years on the Net.
They model I am thinking of is a self governing one, freedom to do whatever to be a white knight or a feckless cur of the night. But granted, the appeal might be lost on many. The idea is that there is discouragement in place to prevent ganking and that you progress your character through death. In death you become stronger as you carry your stats through to the next life. Not saying my idea is 'perfect' or anything like that, but I would like a sandbox game that was self regulated leaving the players to form bonds, be they good or bad.
If we were to go down a PVP route that wasn't F2P I would have it so you could duel to make an opponent submit, or battle to the death. Then just have have rival cities, guilds etc declare war on one another.
I suppose what I am getting at does tie more in line with a DnD type adventure, but as much as I enjoy current MMO's I feel that players would add a lot more depth, history and story to a game world than a scripted story of events.
The other alternative I could see is that if you claim territory you can decide if your area of influence is a safe zone or not...
Of course its all theory, I very much doubt a game with this kinda spirit would be made now, the market would be too niche.