I'm a backer for Shroud of the Avatar, have played its numerous test builds, and my opinion is that the only thing that SoA has in common with Ultima is that it looks and plays like its from the early 1990s.
Played it safe with the "good cop, bad cop" approach. I understand, wouldn't want to cut off a source of future revenue.
You obviously did not see my "Chris Roberts Hates the Media" article. I'm not playing it safe at all, and I seriously doubt the folks over at Port would hold it against me if I had found something to cut them hard on.
I have no problem beating up developers if I see them doing it wrong.
There's a reason why PSO episode 3 card revolution flopped badly , I guess no one learns from the past.
Cheers,
BadOrb.
PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing , PSO2 SEA launch ongoing , Destiny 360 launch ongoing. "SWG was not fun. Let it go buddy." quote from iiNoSkillzii 10/18/13 The original propoganda pixie dust villain :[]
The combat system is actually what made me regain my interest in the game after initially giving up on it when I learned that it was not going to be an open world PvP game.
I was a major critic of the combat system before I tested it. I found out the combat system works well, and is quite fun. Rather than having cool downs like traditional systems, I find that I usually not only have the skill I need when I need it, but i have more than one use of it.
The way the system works actually allows for you to manipulate your skills while you are playing. I didn't have much of a problem looking at the toolbar. The glyphs appear and I got use to seeing them from the corner of my eye. I was able to move run forward, and turn and run backwards and still attack without losing a step. (that was with only a few days long window of alpha testing).
The combat system will be fine, and you can still set up a traditional hotkey bar instead if you want.
I have very specific ideas i wan t to see in any game i play now.
I like or love a skilled based system but i do not like tree systems.WIthout getting into all the reasons and repeating myself one area is that they ruin the excitement,you already see what's next .It's like ok i see i can get Fireblast for 30 damage and put 2 pts into it every level,that is not what i want to see in my games.
I could sum it up quickly if anyone has ever played FFXI they would know more what i am talking about>>>>DEPTH.It is really tough to explain but i will try.A Redmage for example could SOLO mobs that would take a group to take down.This is because of the wide array of abilities and spells and yet none of them by themselves were overpowering.
My many years of gaming i have found the sub class system works by far the best because it gives a defined class system with a sparkling of versatility of other classes.The ability to use various weapons is also a must if kept in check,i don't want to see a wide open weapons system.
I want to see group req's to form combos NOT solo combos,i want to see bonuses for skillful killing, several properties that force players to make decisions,instead of simply grabbing the highest damage sword and start spamming your 1-23 hot bar icons,that i don't want.
If this games combat can come close to what i explained then it will rock.I always have an impossible time figuring out how good a games combat system is from writers or articles because they never give us any details.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
When it's pre-alpha and already abundantly clear that development is in 'polishing the turd' mode then you know it's gg for the project. I'm looking forward to the hilarity that is surely to come in this forum as the game nears it's release. I'm a big fan of UO but, honestly, this is downright embarrassing. I wish the game could be successful, but experience shows how unlikely that would be. The game is going to release to standards at least 10 years behind the rest of the market, don't get me wrong if this was 2004 the game could be successful, drawn on flat forest zone walls and all. Then again WoW and Everquest 2 released around then so I'm not even sure. It's like an old gamedev finally got to implementing everything he wished he could 15 years ago but somehow within the framework of that time, same design principles on a more powerful pc, it's really bizarre.
The combat system is very foreign to the average MMO player. It will be this game's downfall when it comes down to it. It's nothing like the dichotomy between the Action and Tab-target systems; it's actually very different. However, this game has more to worry about than the combat system. Traveling/zoning, customization, animations, models, inventory, etc. It really feels like going back circa 1996-1998.
The posts on this site are some of the funniest "trolling" posts I have ever seen. I am a backer of this game and have been fairly critical on the SotA forums, so I am far from a fanboy. If you are an informed person about SotA you will understand that no where did Richard or Starr say that they were shooting for earth shattering numbers with this game. In fact they gone way past what they thought they were going to get to fund this game, so clearly this is aimed at a very targeted audience. In fact if they can keep 10,000 active users, it can be seen as a win for the game.
Look at all the 100 million dollar AAA games that flop. Going for a smaller loyal market will work out for SotA because no other game out there that I know how have so much crowd sourced material. When players are able to contribute in a meaningful way they will stay, because they can say "hey that table over there was actually and assets I made" or "Hey I wrote a piece of music that is being used in game."
As far as people bashing the graphics, clearly know little about game development. They are just at the system building stage in Pre-Alpha a lot of the things in game that don't look good are pre-purchased assets. The quality of items done by the actual team and contributions from the community are top notch. The graphics will improve greatly over time closer to beta.
From a technical standpoint, there will be a trade off in overall quality of graphics because they decided that they wanted everything you see in game can be used. So every door can be opened, every light can be turned on or off, you can sit on chairs, pick up cups, etc. Most other games go with a shell meaning there might be buildings but most of them are nothing but the specific spaces that want you to go in. So all you do is bake shadows into the textures, since there is a sun and moon cycle you can't just bake shadows in the same way because a shadow in the morning looks different than a shadow in the same area in the evening.
Anyone can be critical of the game and should be, but get yourself educated in the game first so you opinions are informed.
Man, these sorts of threads are a great counterpoint to the oft heard call for 'We want more innovation!'. Innovation leads to dismissal out of hand. This is why you see so much cookie cutter design. You see it here with the discussion on combat. And SotA was orginally going to have a different look, and be very steampunky, but fans and investors wouldn't stand for it. Back to fantasy. Innovation!
Now practically, this is an MMO being done with pretty low funding (comparatively). There are always going to be trade offs, and with less money, you are going to have to deal with it.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
I'm lucky to had a chance to try this game on Pre-Alpha Release 9, the sanbox part is interesting but the combat system is kinda bored me out. But it's an alpha game and overall it's a great game to try.
Man, these sorts of threads are a great counterpoint to the oft heard call for 'We want more innovation!'. Innovation leads to dismissal out of hand. This is why you see so much cookie cutter design. You see it here with the discussion on combat. And SotA was orginally going to have a different look, and be very steampunky, but fans and investors wouldn't stand for it. Back to fantasy. Innovation!
Now practically, this is an MMO being done with pretty low funding (comparatively). There are always going to be trade offs, and with less money, you are going to have to deal with it.
I don't think this is a verdict on innovation. I think it's a byproduct, certainly. But innovation either works or doesn't at the end of the day. Right now, it's not working. So it would be nice to see "changes" that continue to evolve the innovation. What's apparently happening right now is the combat system is more like an innovation sandwich. You have compelling change where players begin by creating a "deck" then you have a healthy dose of damage and cool downs (that's not the least bit innovative) sandwiched between the delivery method for the cards you added to your deck.
It's like of like if Steve Jobs created the iphone by making a old rotary phone have a touch screen. Sure, it's different and it has some promise, but could we please lose copper wires and bulky shell?
I agree with you on the loving or hating of the combat system. I've played Wizard 101 and they used something similar and it really irritated me that when you added more options, you were less likely to get the cards you needed when you needed them, creating incredibly frustrating combat till you weeded everything down to 3 or 4 cards and repeated them in your deck. It ensured a more stable outcome for combat, but left you wondering why you have all these other great situational spells / skills that are essentially useless if you want to keep your sanity during combat. The fact that you take a huge hit in energy by locking in skills also ticks me off as I can see that making someone like me, who prefers a more predictable use of skills, irritated because I would likely be constantly running out of energy during combat.
The game looks pretty good, there is a lot of information out there on this game. Depending on how if they will allow siege warfare will determine if I invest in it. If they do I plan to buy a Knight and a village plot.
Originally posted by Mookzen When it's pre-alpha and already abundantly clear that development is in 'polishing the turd' mode then you know it's gg for the project. I'm looking forward to the hilarity that is surely to come in this forum as the game nears it's release. I'm a big fan of UO but, honestly, this is downright embarrassing. I wish the game could be successful, but experience shows how unlikely that would be. The game is going to release to standards at least 10 years behind the rest of the market, don't get me wrong if this was 2004 the game could be successful, drawn on flat forest zone walls and all. Then again WoW and Everquest 2 released around then so I'm not even sure. It's like an old gamedev finally got to implementing everything he wished he could 15 years ago but somehow within the framework of that time, same design principles on a more powerful pc, it's really bizarre.
There is alot of critic against the combat system but as long as SotA developers don't accept this fact i believe this random card combat system will stay.
This is what Chris wrote about his combat system and the feedback he had noticed -
You really should give it a try for a few hours before criticizing it. There were a LOT of people who raged against the system until we got it live and now it has almost universal support.
I also get the same feeling reading SotA fanbois response over at SotA forums towards criticism against the game. It seems SotA fanbois with rose-coloured glasses and SotA developers live in a imaginary world where SotA is going in the right direction no matter what response the game get.
The problem with innovation and stagnation is that it is a double-edged poison tipped sword, especially in the mmo sub-genre. You hear cries of stagnation and how we have recycled games, and it's all the same, yet if someone does something differently (Guild Wars 2 or Wildstar), even if they have a lot of familiar systems in place, it gets universally panned.
I'm not familiar with how Shroud with hand its card system, but I've played it in Wizards101 and a couple of other games. It was interesting, but I'm not sure I would like that in a more serious fantasy mmo. When players ask for innovation what do they really mean? What is it they're looking for? What are old Ultima or UO fans hoping to find, what sort of experience?
I fail to see what Wildstar did different or exceptional compared to other MMOs. Except lose playerbase faster than any other AA MMO I've seen. The problem in WS was not innovation, but crap execution of ideas and a lack of certain content (imo) + other problems totally unrelated to "innovation" or whatever. Funny thing is, they're fixing or changin stuff now, that they were told to fix/change more than 1 year before release...and devs loled. Joke's on them now I guess.
As for GW2, it's still doing ok afaik. Could it do better? Sure. I'm in pvp guild and the only reason we left is (after 1,5 years) ...no content. PVE PVE PVE, gief PVP, new and better maps, GvG, stuff like that. So again, much of the fail (from my POV) was lack of content I and many others would enjoy. Again, nothing related to the "different thing" they did.
As I said, I'm in primarily pvp guild, we do PVE also, but not as main fun. What I'd say we're looking for: good fights, that do not rely on RNG or massive PVE grind. Multiple PVP formats. Fast fixing of critical bugs and a balance dev with half a brain cell (knee jerk reactions for the win). And of course some (decent!) pvp updates now and again. It's also nice if you have more than 5-6 buttons to push too (looking at u TESO).
@OP "The idea of using a card-based combat system isn’t completely new, but it’s fairly foreign to the vast majority of their targeted audience."
No its not new, its in just about every Asian game that's coming out now and we see them all the time. You are assuming too much regarding gamers and what they know.
With the cash SotA has been given we expect a sandbox skill-based pvp full loot MMO, nothing less, so far is see design to limit the gamer, this is fast becoming a story and not a game.
Make a game that is open as possible, with systems that allow players to sort their own politics, social agendas and story, please don't force feed us generic crap and call it new, its insulting.
As an AVID MMORPG player and long time MMORPG.com member I can say I'm extremely pleased and excited with the mutliplayer combat (pvp) and single player combat (pve) I experienced in R8 and R9 with Shroud of the Avatr... I encourage people to try it, not just log in and cast a spell and log out, before they hate on it! Give it a fighting chance where you spend a couple days 4+ hours a day getting acquainted with something new that has a real-world skill requirement... this deck combat rewards battle prep as much as it rewards reaction time which is something I've been waiting for a long time
When will we get a UO style game with WoW dated graphics... Please see "Shroud of the Avatar"
"There are at least two kinds of games. One could be called finite, the other infinite. A finite game is played for the purpose of winning, an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play." Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
Lulz at all the criticism on a pre-beta preview of the game. That itself just goes to show you how short the attention span and willingness of people to actually give something new a shot, while you are actually crying for something new.
Lulz at all the criticism on a pre-beta preview of the game. That itself just goes to show you how short the attention span and willingness of people to actually give something new a shot, while you are actually crying for something new.
Gots to love the irony.
So new is better? LOL
Random card combat where you stop learning your skills during combat isn't improving combat it is moving with giant steps backwards.
I am glad most people agree on this.
The ones that defend this game are the ones that pledged with fantasy sums and now fear their investment goes up in smoke.
A good example of that is when suggestions of instanced houses for everyone comes up over at SotA forums then these rich house investors defend their right to have exclusive houses while most of the players will be left without owning a house.
This is a game of segregation, rich people vs the rest.
Comments
I'm a backer for Shroud of the Avatar, have played its numerous test builds, and my opinion is that the only thing that SoA has in common with Ultima is that it looks and plays like its from the early 1990s.
You obviously did not see my "Chris Roberts Hates the Media" article. I'm not playing it safe at all, and I seriously doubt the folks over at Port would hold it against me if I had found something to cut them hard on.
I have no problem beating up developers if I see them doing it wrong.
There's a reason why PSO episode 3 card revolution flopped badly , I guess no one learns from the past.
Cheers,
BadOrb.
PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing , PSO2 SEA launch ongoing , Destiny 360 launch ongoing.
"SWG was not fun. Let it go buddy." quote from iiNoSkillzii 10/18/13
The original propoganda pixie dust villain :[]
I was a major critic of the combat system before I tested it. I found out the combat system works well, and is quite fun. Rather than having cool downs like traditional systems, I find that I usually not only have the skill I need when I need it, but i have more than one use of it.
The way the system works actually allows for you to manipulate your skills while you are playing. I didn't have much of a problem looking at the toolbar. The glyphs appear and I got use to seeing them from the corner of my eye. I was able to move run forward, and turn and run backwards and still attack without losing a step. (that was with only a few days long window of alpha testing).
The combat system will be fine, and you can still set up a traditional hotkey bar instead if you want.
I have very specific ideas i wan t to see in any game i play now.
I like or love a skilled based system but i do not like tree systems.WIthout getting into all the reasons and repeating myself one area is that they ruin the excitement,you already see what's next .It's like ok i see i can get Fireblast for 30 damage and put 2 pts into it every level,that is not what i want to see in my games.
I could sum it up quickly if anyone has ever played FFXI they would know more what i am talking about>>>>DEPTH.It is really tough to explain but i will try.A Redmage for example could SOLO mobs that would take a group to take down.This is because of the wide array of abilities and spells and yet none of them by themselves were overpowering.
My many years of gaming i have found the sub class system works by far the best because it gives a defined class system with a sparkling of versatility of other classes.The ability to use various weapons is also a must if kept in check,i don't want to see a wide open weapons system.
I want to see group req's to form combos NOT solo combos,i want to see bonuses for skillful killing, several properties that force players to make decisions,instead of simply grabbing the highest damage sword and start spamming your 1-23 hot bar icons,that i don't want.
If this games combat can come close to what i explained then it will rock.I always have an impossible time figuring out how good a games combat system is from writers or articles because they never give us any details.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
The posts on this site are some of the funniest "trolling" posts I have ever seen. I am a backer of this game and have been fairly critical on the SotA forums, so I am far from a fanboy. If you are an informed person about SotA you will understand that no where did Richard or Starr say that they were shooting for earth shattering numbers with this game. In fact they gone way past what they thought they were going to get to fund this game, so clearly this is aimed at a very targeted audience. In fact if they can keep 10,000 active users, it can be seen as a win for the game.
Look at all the 100 million dollar AAA games that flop. Going for a smaller loyal market will work out for SotA because no other game out there that I know how have so much crowd sourced material. When players are able to contribute in a meaningful way they will stay, because they can say "hey that table over there was actually and assets I made" or "Hey I wrote a piece of music that is being used in game."
As far as people bashing the graphics, clearly know little about game development. They are just at the system building stage in Pre-Alpha a lot of the things in game that don't look good are pre-purchased assets. The quality of items done by the actual team and contributions from the community are top notch. The graphics will improve greatly over time closer to beta.
From a technical standpoint, there will be a trade off in overall quality of graphics because they decided that they wanted everything you see in game can be used. So every door can be opened, every light can be turned on or off, you can sit on chairs, pick up cups, etc. Most other games go with a shell meaning there might be buildings but most of them are nothing but the specific spaces that want you to go in. So all you do is bake shadows into the textures, since there is a sun and moon cycle you can't just bake shadows in the same way because a shadow in the morning looks different than a shadow in the same area in the evening.
Anyone can be critical of the game and should be, but get yourself educated in the game first so you opinions are informed.
Man, these sorts of threads are a great counterpoint to the oft heard call for 'We want more innovation!'. Innovation leads to dismissal out of hand. This is why you see so much cookie cutter design. You see it here with the discussion on combat. And SotA was orginally going to have a different look, and be very steampunky, but fans and investors wouldn't stand for it. Back to fantasy. Innovation!
Now practically, this is an MMO being done with pretty low funding (comparatively). There are always going to be trade offs, and with less money, you are going to have to deal with it.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
I don't think this is a verdict on innovation. I think it's a byproduct, certainly. But innovation either works or doesn't at the end of the day. Right now, it's not working. So it would be nice to see "changes" that continue to evolve the innovation. What's apparently happening right now is the combat system is more like an innovation sandwich. You have compelling change where players begin by creating a "deck" then you have a healthy dose of damage and cool downs (that's not the least bit innovative) sandwiched between the delivery method for the cards you added to your deck.
It's like of like if Steve Jobs created the iphone by making a old rotary phone have a touch screen. Sure, it's different and it has some promise, but could we please lose copper wires and bulky shell?
This right here sums it up perfectly.
There is alot of critic against the combat system but as long as SotA developers don't accept this fact i believe this random card combat system will stay.
This is what Chris wrote about his combat system and the feedback he had noticed -
http://www.mmorpg.com/newsroom.cfm/read/32352/Checking-in-on-Update-9.html
I also get the same feeling reading SotA fanbois response over at SotA forums towards criticism against the game. It seems SotA fanbois with rose-coloured glasses and SotA developers live in a imaginary world where SotA is going in the right direction no matter what response the game get.
I fail to see what Wildstar did different or exceptional compared to other MMOs. Except lose playerbase faster than any other AA MMO I've seen. The problem in WS was not innovation, but crap execution of ideas and a lack of certain content (imo) + other problems totally unrelated to "innovation" or whatever. Funny thing is, they're fixing or changin stuff now, that they were told to fix/change more than 1 year before release...and devs loled. Joke's on them now I guess.
As for GW2, it's still doing ok afaik. Could it do better? Sure. I'm in pvp guild and the only reason we left is (after 1,5 years) ...no content. PVE PVE PVE, gief PVP, new and better maps, GvG, stuff like that. So again, much of the fail (from my POV) was lack of content I and many others would enjoy. Again, nothing related to the "different thing" they did.
As I said, I'm in primarily pvp guild, we do PVE also, but not as main fun. What I'd say we're looking for: good fights, that do not rely on RNG or massive PVE grind. Multiple PVP formats. Fast fixing of critical bugs and a balance dev with half a brain cell (knee jerk reactions for the win). And of course some (decent!) pvp updates now and again. It's also nice if you have more than 5-6 buttons to push too (looking at u TESO).
No its not new, its in just about every Asian game that's coming out now and we see them all the time. You are assuming too much regarding gamers and what they know.
With the cash SotA has been given we expect a sandbox skill-based pvp full loot MMO, nothing less, so far is see design to limit the gamer, this is fast becoming a story and not a game.
Make a game that is open as possible, with systems that allow players to sort their own politics, social agendas and story, please don't force feed us generic crap and call it new, its insulting.
When will we get a UO style game with WoW dated graphics... Please see "Shroud of the Avatar"
"ESO is Skyrim: With Friends"
don't we all wish...
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
Lulz at all the criticism on a pre-beta preview of the game. That itself just goes to show you how short the attention span and willingness of people to actually give something new a shot, while you are actually crying for something new.
Gots to love the irony.
http://insanemembrain.wordpress.com/
So new is better? LOL
Random card combat where you stop learning your skills during combat isn't improving combat it is moving with giant steps backwards.
I am glad most people agree on this.
The ones that defend this game are the ones that pledged with fantasy sums and now fear their investment goes up in smoke.
A good example of that is when suggestions of instanced houses for everyone comes up over at SotA forums then these rich house investors defend their right to have exclusive houses while most of the players will be left without owning a house.
This is a game of segregation, rich people vs the rest.
more proof that raph koster was the reason ultima online worked, not lord british
this games going to be terrible
Games i'm playing right now...
"In short, I thought NGE was a very bad idea" - Raph Koster talking about NGE on his blog at raphkoster.com