Originally posted by Jockan For a true living breathing world it will have to be a game where they are no npcs at all. All real players living in the world. If you go to the a merchant in town its a real person playing as the merchant. Need a blacksmith? The blacksmiths are real players that have earned the ability to be a blacksmith. For this to be possible you will have to be able to do more things because who wants to sit in a shop all day? So you can be a Mage thats went out hunted and when you feel like it go to town and open your Armor shop or Inn. Until I see this there is no true Living Breathing World. One day though. :-)
Now this is the kind of post I have been wanting to see. Someone who understands the need of an experiment of this scale: of perhaps shocking the MMO world with a game without NPCs. How would it work?
Ask Teppy, Notch, or the old crew from Turbine. ATITD (minimal NPCs), Wurm Online (has since added them) and AC2 were low or no NPC MMOs. The purpose of NPCs are to further moment to moment gameplay. Replace them with a kiosk, pop up windows, Clippy or whatever you want, but the core reason for their presence is to prevent situations where a player can do nothing in one regard or another.
I'm sure others have explored that path, however those are the first three I can think of.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
without NPCs ? Multiplayer online minecraft game with better graphic IMO .
Gather materials from natural . /
Free to build everything . /
Trading materials between players > Player-driven economy . /
Interest Free for all PVP for rare materials . /
umm ... since there are no NPC , it mean there are no humanoid buildings or ruins , all are forest , lakes , cave , mountain and seas.
First players all naked with some "censored" and build everything from scratch.
It sound pretty interest game to spend time and build some epic things.
And no NPC , you mean no MOBs too ? they are NPC too.
Not ready bad game , but you don't need "living breathing world" for this kind of game .
In first place "living breathing world" need to raise the role playing element , but if there are NO NPC to community with then there are no need for "living breathing world" .
Now this is the kind of post I have been wanting to see. Someone who understands the need of an experiment of this scale: of perhaps shocking the MMO world with a game without NPCs. How would it work? Pessimists will tell you all sorts of things, but I am optimistic: I believe that there are enough people like Jockan and I that such a game would be excellent, given it has a respectable population. Players would need to be confined at first to a limited societal space, in order that they can be brought together in one common city area, and as population grows new cities and societies would be founded.
nah .. you just need a few griefers to make it not fun for everyone.
It will be an experiment, not a game. I would much rather play games.
I want to look in a mirror and see my character's reflection. I want to breed mounts, battle pets, and dragons. I want generational breeding to increase stats and produce rare colors / appearence. I want to be a drow / dark elf in a medieval setting even if everyone else is tired of that repeat scenario. I want to fly to other planets. No teleports. No cash shops. No VIP. Stamina decides how much you can carry no more f*ing bags!!!
Originally posted by Jemcrystal I want to fly to other planets. No teleports.
Really? You want to spend a majority (or even just significant) amount of game time just staring at a round disk (planet) becoming bigger slowly?
I am glad you are not the dominant types of players in the market where devs would cater to .. otherwise, i would have given up games, and just watch tv and read for entertainment.
Nah he wants to stare at a menu in lfg while flying in circles waiting for a group to pop so he can instantly teleport to a space instance with exciting choices and bonuses for speed runs.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by Bladestrom Nah he wants to stare at a menu in lfg while flying in circles waiting for a group to pop so he can instantly teleport to a space instance with exciting choices and bonuses for speed runs.
staring? If the lobby is done right ... there is little waiting.
And yeah ... exciting choices, bonuses, speed runs all sound 100x more fun than staring at a planet growing bigger ... of course unless the "slow" travel takes only 5 seconds ... and in that case no different than a teleport.
Originally posted by Bladestrom Nah he wants to stare at a menu in lfg while flying in circles waiting for a group to pop so he can instantly teleport to a space instance with exciting choices and bonuses for speed runs.
staring? If the lobby is done right ... there is little waiting.
And yeah ... exciting choices, bonuses, speed runs all sound 100x more fun than staring at a planet growing bigger ... of course unless the "slow" travel takes only 5 seconds ... and in that case no different than a teleport.
Awesome for an FPS/MOBA etc.
For an MMO...
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Originally posted by Bladestrom Nah he wants to stare at a menu in lfg while flying in circles waiting for a group to pop so he can instantly teleport to a space instance with exciting choices and bonuses for speed runs.
staring? If the lobby is done right ... there is little waiting.
And yeah ... exciting choices, bonuses, speed runs all sound 100x more fun than staring at a planet growing bigger ... of course unless the "slow" travel takes only 5 seconds ... and in that case no different than a teleport.
Awesome for an FPS/MOBA etc.
For an MMO...
For an MMO ... it is a recipe to evolve and capture a bigger audience. Look at Marvel Heroes ... it is basically Diablo with a marvel skin + few public zones, and now it is rolling out 12 heroes in 2015 ... apparently they are successful enough to expand content every year.
It would be pretty awesome (to me, at least since "awesome"-ness is subjective) if MMOs can learn from other genres.
Lol do travelling detracts from a Living breathing world but lobbies improve it- hum dingingly thick. by wait more people play bubble witch and have fun - suuuurely mmorpg would therefore be better if you could choose to pop bubbles to improve the immersion factor even further - that makes perfect sense cause like I love playing bubble games.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by Bladestrom Lol do travelling detracts from a Living breathing world but lobbies improve it- hum dingingly thick. by wait more people play bubble witch and have fun - suuuurely mmorpg would therefore be better if you could choose to pop bubbles to improve the immersion factor even further - that makes perfect sense cause like I love playing bubble games.
Yes, lobbies improve the game. Who cares about immersion when it makes a game not fun? Fun is more important than immersion for me (and probably a lot of others since lobbies like LFD queues are so popular).
Bubbles may be fun for you ... but not for me. Lobbies, time dungeon runs, game modes ... are fun for me. Let's the market decide what to make.
And what has that got to do with living breathing worlds? You statements about lobbies is just as ridiculous as introducing elements from iPhone puzzle games - your liking single player games and not getting communities etc has got nothing to do with the genre.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Imagine an American football player grabbing the ball in the middle of a soccer game and running into the goal declaring that American football is better - your that man.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by Bladestrom And what has that got to do with living breathing worlds? You statements about lobbies is just as ridiculous as introducing elements from iPhone puzzle games - your liking single player games and not getting communities etc has got nothing to do with the genre.
That would be true if the "genre" is not becoming more solo-friendly, and lobby like. But it is ... otherwise i won't even be here.
What that has got to do with living breathing worlds? It shows that it is a flaw idea that you need one in a MMO. You may want one .. but it is fair game to discuss preferences other than yours (or else why would there be long threads arguing about FFA, harsh death penalty and all the usual dead horses).
For an MMO ... it is a recipe to evolve and capture a bigger audience. Look at Marvel Heroes ... it is basically Diablo with a marvel skin + few public zones, and now it is rolling out 12 heroes in 2015 ... apparently they are successful enough to expand content every year.
Typical ARPG is just click on same 3 or 4 buttons over and over. Sure the good ones have lots of cool ways to customize your character and I do get in the mood for a game like that the odd time (although I much prefer Path of Exile or Drox Operative to Diablo personally) but the gameplay in ARPGs isn't exactly riveting the only exciting part of those games is finding cool loot and trying new builds. I certainly wouldn't want all games to copy ARPGs. That would be far more boring to me than spending 5 minutes landing on a planet or walking through a field to increase immersion (which I sometimes specifically enjoyed doing in Skyrim and similar games).
For an MMO ... it is a recipe to evolve and capture a bigger audience. Look at Marvel Heroes ... it is basically Diablo with a marvel skin + few public zones, and now it is rolling out 12 heroes in 2015 ... apparently they are successful enough to expand content every year.
Typical ARPG is just click on same 3 or 4 buttons over and over. Sure the good ones have lots of cool ways to customize your character and I do get in the mood for a game like that the odd time (although I much prefer Path of Exile or Drox Operative to Diablo personally) but the gameplay in ARPGs isn't exactly riveting the only exciting part of those games is finding cool loot and trying new builds. I certainly wouldn't want all games to copy ARPGs. That would be far more boring to me than spending 5 minutes landing on a planet or walking through a field to increase immersion (which I sometimes specifically enjoyed doing in Skyrim and similar games).
and "cool loot" + fun combat >>>> landing on a planet or walking anywhere for me .. particular when I have to do it again, again and again.
I don't play SKYRIM precisely because there is too much walking. Diablo (or PoE) will be a much better game for me.
By your limited viewpoint on gaming you would have people teleporting between quest givers. btw did you actually read the thread title and OP post, because as with every other thres/conversation you are basically wading in and telling the world you love single player games. Your in a mmorpg forum and in a thread discussing MMOrpg matters. Wether you like communities or chocolate or wearing a pair of pants on your head has no bearing on this conversation.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
The thread drags on. It falls further and further away from the original topic, which really was never challenged, save for deviations made to attack the peripherals which don't matter at all to me.
What I am saying is that a living breathing virtual world requires a real economy, a total or near absence of NPCs, and the ability for players to impact the environment. It must be a game that focuses on society rather than heroism or combat, which is the formula for really not only every MMO that gets released, but every game in general. Rarely do you see a game, even in single player, that doesn't attempt to make you into a hero.
Blame capitalism or what have you, perhaps I am quite a minority in that I don't at all care to be told I am a hero for doing what everyone else does. I want to help to build a virtual society with other players, and sustain it against competing societies against other players.
I see absolutely no reason why this cannot be accomplished.
What I am saying is that a living breathing virtual world requires a real economy, a total or near absence of NPCs, and the ability for players to impact the environment. It must be a game that focuses on society rather than heroism or combat, which is the formula for really not only every MMO that gets released, but every game in general. Rarely do you see a game, even in single player, that doesn't attempt to make you into a hero.
Blame capitalism or what have you, perhaps I am quite a minority in that I don't at all care to be told I am a hero for doing what everyone else does. I want to help to build a virtual society with other players, and sustain it against competing societies against other players.
I see absolutely no reason why this cannot be accomplished.
Why? A game world can't feel well developed with NPCs? I flat out disagree with that. Also I don't care about destroying terrain if that's what you mean by impacting the environment. What do either of those things have to do with "living world"?
Also if you want someone else to make your game you have to convince them that it's profitable not just that it "can be done". Lots of games could be made but not in a profitable way. That's just the reality of the gaming industry unfortunately.
Why? A game world can't feel well developed with NPCs? I flat out disagree with that. Also I don't care about destroying terrain if that's what you mean by impacting the environment. What do either of those things have to do with "living world"?
Also if you want someone else to make your game you have to convince them that it's profitable not just that it "can be done". Lots of games could be made but not in a profitable way. That's just the reality of the gaming industry unfortunately.
I'm actually saying nothing of the kind, so this is a strawman. A game world can feel excellent with NPCs (WoW) but it's not the kind of game I desire. The attempt is to create a living breathing virtual world, and in such a thing, I believe, NPC presence must be either eliminated or reduced to a minimum amount.
Comments
Ask Teppy, Notch, or the old crew from Turbine. ATITD (minimal NPCs), Wurm Online (has since added them) and AC2 were low or no NPC MMOs. The purpose of NPCs are to further moment to moment gameplay. Replace them with a kiosk, pop up windows, Clippy or whatever you want, but the core reason for their presence is to prevent situations where a player can do nothing in one regard or another.
I'm sure others have explored that path, however those are the first three I can think of.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
without NPCs ? Multiplayer online minecraft game with better graphic IMO .
Gather materials from natural . /
Free to build everything . /
Trading materials between players > Player-driven economy . /
Interest Free for all PVP for rare materials . /
umm ... since there are no NPC , it mean there are no humanoid buildings or ruins , all are forest , lakes , cave , mountain and seas.
First players all naked with some "censored" and build everything from scratch.
It sound pretty interest game to spend time and build some epic things.
And no NPC , you mean no MOBs too ? they are NPC too.
Not ready bad game , but you don't need "living breathing world" for this kind of game .
In first place "living breathing world" need to raise the role playing element , but if there are NO NPC to community with then there are no need for "living breathing world" .
everyone talks about what they like on this forum. I am not the first to have a different opinion on a topic.
nah .. you just need a few griefers to make it not fun for everyone.
It will be an experiment, not a game. I would much rather play games.
Really? You want to spend a majority (or even just significant) amount of game time just staring at a round disk (planet) becoming bigger slowly?
I am glad you are not the dominant types of players in the market where devs would cater to .. otherwise, i would have given up games, and just watch tv and read for entertainment.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
staring? If the lobby is done right ... there is little waiting.
And yeah ... exciting choices, bonuses, speed runs all sound 100x more fun than staring at a planet growing bigger ... of course unless the "slow" travel takes only 5 seconds ... and in that case no different than a teleport.
Awesome for an FPS/MOBA etc.
For an MMO...
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
For an MMO ... it is a recipe to evolve and capture a bigger audience. Look at Marvel Heroes ... it is basically Diablo with a marvel skin + few public zones, and now it is rolling out 12 heroes in 2015 ... apparently they are successful enough to expand content every year.
It would be pretty awesome (to me, at least since "awesome"-ness is subjective) if MMOs can learn from other genres.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Yes, lobbies improve the game. Who cares about immersion when it makes a game not fun? Fun is more important than immersion for me (and probably a lot of others since lobbies like LFD queues are so popular).
Bubbles may be fun for you ... but not for me. Lobbies, time dungeon runs, game modes ... are fun for me. Let's the market decide what to make.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
That would be true if the "genre" is not becoming more solo-friendly, and lobby like. But it is ... otherwise i won't even be here.
What that has got to do with living breathing worlds? It shows that it is a flaw idea that you need one in a MMO. You may want one .. but it is fair game to discuss preferences other than yours (or else why would there be long threads arguing about FFA, harsh death penalty and all the usual dead horses).
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Typical ARPG is just click on same 3 or 4 buttons over and over. Sure the good ones have lots of cool ways to customize your character and I do get in the mood for a game like that the odd time (although I much prefer Path of Exile or Drox Operative to Diablo personally) but the gameplay in ARPGs isn't exactly riveting the only exciting part of those games is finding cool loot and trying new builds. I certainly wouldn't want all games to copy ARPGs. That would be far more boring to me than spending 5 minutes landing on a planet or walking through a field to increase immersion (which I sometimes specifically enjoyed doing in Skyrim and similar games).
While I doubt that the latest XKCD comic is a reply to this thread, it sure fits:
http://xkcd.com/1425/
and "cool loot" + fun combat >>>> landing on a planet or walking anywhere for me .. particular when I have to do it again, again and again.
I don't play SKYRIM precisely because there is too much walking. Diablo (or PoE) will be a much better game for me.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Well "fun combat" is subjective. I don't find the combat in ARPGs very fun by itself. Actual RPGs have much more fun combat for me.
The thread drags on. It falls further and further away from the original topic, which really was never challenged, save for deviations made to attack the peripherals which don't matter at all to me.
What I am saying is that a living breathing virtual world requires a real economy, a total or near absence of NPCs, and the ability for players to impact the environment. It must be a game that focuses on society rather than heroism or combat, which is the formula for really not only every MMO that gets released, but every game in general. Rarely do you see a game, even in single player, that doesn't attempt to make you into a hero.
Blame capitalism or what have you, perhaps I am quite a minority in that I don't at all care to be told I am a hero for doing what everyone else does. I want to help to build a virtual society with other players, and sustain it against competing societies against other players.
I see absolutely no reason why this cannot be accomplished.
Why? A game world can't feel well developed with NPCs? I flat out disagree with that. Also I don't care about destroying terrain if that's what you mean by impacting the environment. What do either of those things have to do with "living world"?
Also if you want someone else to make your game you have to convince them that it's profitable not just that it "can be done". Lots of games could be made but not in a profitable way. That's just the reality of the gaming industry unfortunately.
I'm actually saying nothing of the kind, so this is a strawman. A game world can feel excellent with NPCs (WoW) but it's not the kind of game I desire. The attempt is to create a living breathing virtual world, and in such a thing, I believe, NPC presence must be either eliminated or reduced to a minimum amount.