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why do we not see persistant dungeons in MMOs anymore?
Ecoces
Member UncommonPosts: 879
Sol A, Befallen, Estate of Unrest from Everquests
Catacombs, Avalon, Keltoi, Barrows from DAOC
Basically places where you take a group and either set up a camp spot or fight your way through it. A dungeon that can hold multiple groups to farm and level.
I mean i understand instanced dungeons are nice short fun tailor made experiences but why have MMO companies forgotten these types of dungeons.
Comments
The griefer population that moved into games probably had something to do with it. The number of people who will fuck with people just because they can makes public places like that much less fun than they used to be. There was a time when most people who showed up were looking to form groups and take turns and chat with everyone there. It was a positive social experience " most " of the time.
Now "most" of what shows up would be hard to even call human.
Sometimes the wait was just to much.
Good points, you guys. I guess the you tube videos of ESO I saw months ago illustrate the point. Rather than fighting your way through a dungeon to get to a coveted boss, you instead walk into a room with ten gold farmers who kill the boss before his graphic even has time to render. No immersion whatsoever. Sad.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
I think the easiest answer to this question can be demonstrated by early criticisms of Elder Scrolls Online, where large numbers of people would inevitably congregate around areas of interest. As you can probably imagine, it was much chaos and gnashing of teeth.
I think a balance can be struck between the open dungeons of old and the instanced dungeons of today, but given the huge number of players in these games today I don't think it would work out without some level of instancing to separate the players.
As for griefers, I see them as a different problem entirely that has more to do with the audience being targeted and the general theme of the game. I don't feel that it is a coincidence that MMOs having the most issue with griefers are built around factional conflicts often pitting players against one another at various points throughout the game.
I think it's safe to say that, at the time, instancing was the best way to do two things. Firstly to accomodate the growing MMO playerbase and secondly to resolve problems such as kill stealing and rare mob camping.
I think that today we have better ways of dealing with those things that don't require instances. GW2's dynamic events spring to mind, where you just need to participate in an even to get the rewards.
I'm not a huge fan of instancing and I despise phasing. The whole point of MMO's is to allow that large playerbase to interact in the world together, not to seperate them. Hopefully if devs can take the tech behind dynamic events and push it even further we'll see even better solutions to those problems.
Gold farmers were extremely relevant in FFXI but all you had to do was design the game properly.If you make spawns happen too quickly,then that Boss or the loot is not really rare,then why bother.If it takes too much time RMT will not care to take part,their only recourse was to cheat with bots but then again it is up to the developer to CARE and make sure cheating does not happen.
Some Boss in FFXI took a whole day to spawn,some several days,maybe even weeks,RMT is not going to profit sitting there waiting for that rare spawn.Instead normal groups would over time stumble onto valuable named spawns and attempt to take them down,it made for a lot of fun times,WAY more fun than running a dungeon with ONLY one purpose,to get that Boss loot.TONS and tons of named bosses in FFXI are right out in the open,you don't need a dungeon run and even the dungeons were 99% non instanced.
I guess it ids also because these modern games have nothing else going for them,so since they know Raiding from Wow,they figure that is their best option to try and keep players interested.That kind of shows how shallow game design has become and how non creative modern developers are.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Yep, a good example was ESO. They had to nerf xp and drops to nothing because bots, gold farmers and power levelers just sat in one spot spamming abilities 24/7 during launch.
Basically we can't have nice things because . . . people. MMO community isn't the same one from 10-15 years ago.
So what you're saying is that the popularity was strong enough to PROVE all the camp locations were taken by groups and so people had to use "waiting" list.. Been there, done that.. I did my first waiting list in Highhold Pass for the gnoll's ledge, the orc side, then in Highkeep itself.. I never once complained, and never did it feel that the wait wasn't worth it..
However, you have a good point and one that needs addressed and resolved.. I keep hearing about waiting list.. That only happens when supply and demand is messed up.. Easy answer coming.. wait for it..... wait for it.. >>>>>> ADD MORE DAMN camps and points of interest.. So that demand never becomes an issue.. If that means that zones like Highkeep or Kanor's Castle needs more rooms to accommodate everyone, then it should be done..
Now as for the OP.. I so miss the old world dungeon crawls.. I don't remember any since my EQ days.. Tiss a shame cause Blackborrow was my first dungeon and one main reason I fell in love with EQ immediately..
Basically, players today just do not desire that kind of game experience.
Back in the day, there were LOTS of dungeons to choose from (covering the same player levels), not just a handful or two dungeons in the whole game. Crushbone busy? Head over to Blackburrow. Also, each dungeon had multiple camping spots. They were NOT designed with an easy "in/loot/out" design. Remember, there were "best leveling spot" guides since there were so many spots available.
The concept is further made difficult by "mega servers". These make it hard for millions of players to head for the handful of dungeons presented.
If you figure having a server population in the thousands to cover players, the "wait game" is not near as dreadful (though still present) as some try to make it our to be. Old games had fewer players and more servers. New games have more players and fewer servers. Kind of backwards if you ask me
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
People love exploiting that sort of thing, as proven by gold farmers / bots and the like.
It's a shame because that kind of experience really adds a lot to the immersion of the game environment.
8 years and counting addicted to
Avalon: The Legend Lives - the longest running online RPG in history
Bots, macros, cheaters and power levelling.
That's why.
Non-instanced dungeons are good idea, but only is above issues are taken care of.
There are many great ideas for MMORPGs that in practical terms are bad idea because of in current level of technology (and sometimes law) players cannot be stopped of abusing them.
Because most of their customers prefer instanced dungeons?
Personally i won't play a game where I have to camp dungeons with other groups .... heck, i don't even want to see other groups in my dungeon.
One would think that might be the case, but often what happens is everyone flocks to the dungeons with the best return. What Asheron's Call did to resolve that is make several dungeons around the world similar in mobs and design to spread people out. It seemed to work, however whenever a new dungeon with a quest objective or desirable drop came out, the first month or so they still had the lines and queues at the boss.
I'm still waiting for MMOc to move away from the dikuMUD system of mob loot drops and try something different. That change alone would create a massive shift in how dungeons are designed and alleviate many of the problems that have made instanced dungeons almost a necessity.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
There were problems - which led to (an over use imo) of instancing but recent games seem to be seeking to find a balance between (what are now termed) public and private dungeons.
Some of the problems - in addition to griefers and gold campers:
On the flip-side, ESO's open dungeons are more or less solo dungeons made for a quick and easy run-through. You could take most of them alone. If they were a lot harder it might have been a different story. But if that were the case, a vocal majority would probably scream "NERF!!!1".
The gold farming issue could be solved by "removing the gold" - more precisely the ability to trade. CoH had - essentially - no economy (maybe it added one but it didn't launch with one). Wouldn't surprise me if Destiny has none because Bungie decided economy = bots; no economy = easy fix to bots.
You get a different game however. And for some the fix may be worse than the problem. Bots are a plague.
I don't think that removing gold from the game helps. It simply means that there will be alternate currencies created using valuable items in the game. I'd love to see an economy in Destiny, but items in-game are still so valuable that market items would all be at a premium right now. It does place a lot of focus on farming though. There's never any lack of people at the Treasure Cave.
Crazkanuk
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The problem with persistent, open world dungeons is the problem with most MMORPG mechanics. The problem is the players.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Then you should be advocating an entire instanced game.. like Diablo 3.. There is NO difference between an above ground open farmland zone with rolling hills and terrain, and an underground maze of tunnels and caves.. It's only geography and graphics.. I'm amused over the years that so many are OK with open world above ground content, but not open world below ground content.... Did I miss the memo?
You may have missed the memo. There are issues that show up around persistent, open world dungeons with bosses that don't show up in games where people are just questing. It could really be simplified down to "Don't make players wait arbitrarily for their shiny loot". Open world above ground content does not make people wait arbitrarily for their shiny loot. Open world below ground content results in people waiting on their shiny loot.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Bad concepts and ideas get abandoned, it is called evolution. Devs simply figured out that it is no fun.
Yeh ... advocating is too strong a word. But I do prefer 100% instanced game like D3, than open world games with others. And yes, there is no differences .... just geography (which has combat tactics implications) and graphics.