Thinking about the Titan announcement I think Blizzard should make a WOW 2.0 taking the same land, races, lore etc but make it more open like Skyrim.**
It could still have a hand-holding linear quest game inside it by having a tick box at character creation - on by default - that spawned quest pointer NPCs in a linear chain but people who hated that could switch it off.
It could incorporate the best bits of gatherer/crafting systems from other games e.g. Ryzom (gathering), SWG (gathering, recipe depth, experimentation and customization), EQ (recipe depth) and maybe Archeage (too early to tell) plus other non-combat activities for people who get bored of combat all the time.
It could also have a more engaging class system based on choosing a limited number of blocks of skills like SWG or Archeage (or sort of Skyrim) where you can combine any 3 blocks out of 10 or any 5 blocks out of 12 or whatever. There would still be "classes" of a sort based on common combinations of blocks e.g. a "knight" might be the attack, defense and captain (buffer) blocks, a ranger the archery, wilderness and melee attack blocks etc.
That way they keep all that investment in their world.
(** A game like that needs mobs to give exp in a reasonable proportion to quests so any particular quest is more optional than they are now plus lots that start in the wilderness which players can stumble across, also make all the settlement "kill ten rats" type quests into "rats/wolves/goblins are an ongoing problem" tasks where you get exp for each rat tail, wolf tail, goblin necklace you bring back or make them repeatable daily. "Quests" that are part of the world's daily life should be repeatable tasks and missions imo and not quests, quests should be an actual quest (and maybe only have one quest at a time).
This game already exists. It's called Lord of The Rings Online and it isn't as great as you would think.
Lotro is nothing like what I am describing. Lotro is an okay to very good linear theme park ride depending on how much you like Tolkein.
Thinking about the Titan announcement I think Blizzard should make a WOW 2.0 taking the same land, races, lore etc but make it more open like Skyrim.**
It could still have a hand-holding linear quest game inside it by having a tick box at character creation - on by default - that spawned quest pointer NPCs in a linear chain but people who hated that could switch it off.
It could incorporate the best bits of gatherer/crafting systems from other games e.g. Ryzom (gathering), SWG (gathering, recipe depth, experimentation and customization), EQ (recipe depth) and maybe Archeage (too early to tell) plus other non-combat activities for people who get bored of combat all the time.
It could also have a more engaging class system based on choosing a limited number of blocks of skills like SWG or Archeage (or sort of Skyrim) where you can combine any 3 blocks out of 10 or any 5 blocks out of 12 or whatever. There would still be "classes" of a sort based on common combinations of blocks e.g. a "knight" might be the attack, defense and captain (buffer) blocks, a ranger the archery, wilderness and melee attack blocks etc.
That way they keep all that investment in their world.
(** A game like that needs mobs to give exp in a reasonable proportion to quests so any particular quest is more optional than they are now plus lots that start in the wilderness which players can stumble across, also make all the settlement "kill ten rats" type quests into "rats/wolves/goblins are an ongoing problem" tasks where you get exp for each rat tail, wolf tail, goblin necklace you bring back or make them repeatable daily. "Quests" that are part of the world's daily life should be repeatable tasks and missions imo and not quests, quests should be an actual quest (and maybe only have one quest at a time).
The class freedom idea won't work in a WoW 2 game because Warcraft has lore and rules on classes. For example a paladin can't have evil skills or skills that would disarm somebody. If they do, that would go against the lore, which is a strong point for Warcraft MMOs I would assume.
You just turn classes into factions/guilds with requirements. The ranger guild might require the "archery" and "wilderness" skill blocks for example.
From a "build a world" point of view that's the only way classes make sense anyway.
Originally posted by Ganksinatra I would like WoW2 to add in the two best things from EQ1, and I would be happy. Add Althernate Advancement and epicweapon quests for each class with the ability to upgrade them via raid quests each teir. That would be super. Otherwise, keep the game as is with tons of starting areas so making alts doesn't get boring with tons of dungeons to grind.
Just to be clear when I say more like a Skyrim type experience I don't mean lose all the starting races/zones - that's the best bit of WoW imo. I just mean make each zone more open world ish so you can level different characters in different ways.
I just mean make each zone more open world ish so you can level different characters in different ways.
People will flock to the content that gives them best exp. If the devs want any sort of variety to the experience they need to be in TOTAL control. The moment you give the community the ball you lose it all. Not to mention the variety in question, if it so happens that the devs manage to not make people flock to a single content (which is not an easy task in itself), is an either-or-type of variety (as I interpret your suggestion). If the content cannot coexist and provide variety without exclusion of other content it is a worthless use of resources. Resources that are not in big supply for a genre where the players want ten times more stuff to do and options than in any other genre by default.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
I just mean make each zone more open world ish so you can level different characters in different ways.
People will flock to the content that gives them best exp. If the devs want any sort of variety to the experience they need to be in TOTAL control. The moment you give the community the ball you lose it all. Not to mention the variety in question, if it so happens that the devs manage to not make people flock to a single content (which is not an easy task in itself), is an either-or-type of variety (as I interpret your suggestion). If the content cannot coexist and provide variety without exclusion of other content it is a worthless use of resources. Resources that are not in big supply for a genre where the players want ten times more stuff to do and options than in any other genre by default.
"People will flock to the content that gives them best exp."
That's fine. If some players want to follow the optimal leveling route let them. That's how linear games are designed now so that can't be a problem and you need to let the "fast level to endgame people" have their thing.
I'm saying you can have both a linear game and a non-linear game at the same time.
All you need to do is make an open zone with a bunch of different quests, mobs and activities scattered around and then have an option on character creation to activate signpost NPCs who direct the player along the optimal leveling chain. With that option ticked you get a standard linear quest hub game but with that option unticked those helper NPCs are inactive and you run around in whatever direction you feel like looking for quests hidden behind rocks, gathering and crafting or chasing sparkly collectibles or whatever.
Originally posted by Edli What would be the point. Every change they would want to make on 2 they can already do it now with an expansion. Upgrade the graphics? Patch it up.
Not true.
Blizzard has lamented many times on the message boards that there are things they would like to change or add to WoW but cannot.
They would like to make the combat real time action but the player base would get confused and angry because they are used to the tab target combat. Also, the cries of "NGE! NGE! NGE!" would fill the message boards.
There are other things that would just require time and money but Blizzard won't do them because they don't have to to keep the game relevant.
Blizzard would like to upgrade the servers again to better handle Lake Wintergrasp like zones.
And they would like to upgrade the graphics engine to implement better special effects rather than trying to patch them into the ancient engine they are currently using.
So, there are things that are either community or cost prohibitive.
There are only 3 things a WoW 2.0 would need to bring me back.
First, a return to group quests in the open world. Bring some challenge back in the leveling process. You should be able to solo your way to level cap if you want, but you shouldn't be able to solo EVERYTHING. There should be a return to quests and questlines that involve a group and/or raid to complete. In other words, just increase the overall difficulty of the leveling process.
Second: Update the old world design to include graphics that are on par with the newer zones in the game like what we see in Pandaria. Since the game would be built from the ground up as opposed to improved on an already existing graphical design, might as well make all the zones look as good as Pandaria looks.
Second: Do away with the current skill system. Not to Archeage's system, though, because that makes no sense for a game whose identity is tied in directly to its iconic classes. But to a return to TALENT TREES. Big, complex, bloated talent trees like they had during the WoTLK expansion. I realize this promotes cookie-cutter endgame builds, but I don't give a shit. That's the price you pay for being a raider/theorycrafter. I want big, massive talent trees in which, at least during the leveling process, I can fool around and distribute points how I see fit. The current skill system they have is an abomination, and the dumbing down of the skills/talents that they started since Cata really ruined the game for me.
The problem with big skill trees is that it clashes with games that use the power is progression mechanism for player progress. The only answer to the problems with that system if you choose to maintain it is to simplify the variables that need to be balanced, i.e strip out skills and then constantly firefight with stat patch/hacks. Even then the problem with WOW is the whole game is centralised around the idea of solo performance - therefore there's no room for allowing variance in performance - if a build is not in the top x% in performance then the build is shunned - therefore large skills sets are pointless.
I'm fine with builds being shunned. As I stated, once you hit endgame and expect to raid, then you SHOULD theorycraft, min-max, and all of that. My point is that during the leveling process, let me have some fun with builds. Let me experiment. Let me have choices, even if those choices aren't something I can have at endgame.
There's nothing wrong with performance-based progression allowing players to make their own mistakes or fiddle around with builds while learning the game. It's what made Pre-Cata WoW so genuinely fun. I looked forward to being able to add a point to my talent tree after every gain in level. It gave me something to anticipate. Now, it's just, "Oh great, another 5-6 levels before there is any change to my skills. Yawn." It makes the act of gaining a level simply "meh."
I just mean make each zone more open world ish so you can level different characters in different ways.
People will flock to the content that gives them best exp. If the devs want any sort of variety to the experience they need to be in TOTAL control. The moment you give the community the ball you lose it all. Not to mention the variety in question, if it so happens that the devs manage to not make people flock to a single content (which is not an easy task in itself), is an either-or-type of variety (as I interpret your suggestion). If the content cannot coexist and provide variety without exclusion of other content it is a worthless use of resources. Resources that are not in big supply for a genre where the players want ten times more stuff to do and options than in any other genre by default.
"People will flock to the content that gives them best exp."
That's fine. If some players want to follow the optimal leveling route let them. That's how linear games are designed now so that can't be a problem and you need to let the "fast level to endgame people" have their thing.
I'm saying you can have both a linear game and a non-linear game at the same time.
All you need to do is make an open zone with a bunch of different quests, mobs and activities scattered around and then have an option on character creation to activate signpost NPCs who direct the player along the optimal leveling chain. With that option ticked you get a standard linear quest hub game but with that option unticked those helper NPCs are inactive and you run around in whatever direction you feel like looking for quests hidden behind rocks, gathering and crafting or chasing sparkly collectibles or whatever.
Yes, you can have both useless content and useful content at the same time. I don't know why any developer would want that, though.
What you want as a developer is content that complements other content, not competes with other content. What you're describing is the worst design decision a dev could possibly make, and Blizzard is smarter than that. Have an option on character creation? So you lock the player behind his or her decision and make it as hard as possible to undo. At the very least this option needs to be toggleable at any point in the game. Otherwise, the fact it's a competing design choice instead of complementing one makes it a total waste of resources to implement.
If this game ever gets a green light, it should be called The Hindenburg: The MMO.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Comments
Lotro is nothing like what I am describing. Lotro is an okay to very good linear theme park ride depending on how much you like Tolkein.
You just turn classes into factions/guilds with requirements. The ranger guild might require the "archery" and "wilderness" skill blocks for example.
From a "build a world" point of view that's the only way classes make sense anyway.
Just to be clear when I say more like a Skyrim type experience I don't mean lose all the starting races/zones - that's the best bit of WoW imo. I just mean make each zone more open world ish so you can level different characters in different ways.
People will flock to the content that gives them best exp. If the devs want any sort of variety to the experience they need to be in TOTAL control. The moment you give the community the ball you lose it all. Not to mention the variety in question, if it so happens that the devs manage to not make people flock to a single content (which is not an easy task in itself), is an either-or-type of variety (as I interpret your suggestion). If the content cannot coexist and provide variety without exclusion of other content it is a worthless use of resources. Resources that are not in big supply for a genre where the players want ten times more stuff to do and options than in any other genre by default.
"People will flock to the content that gives them best exp."
That's fine. If some players want to follow the optimal leveling route let them. That's how linear games are designed now so that can't be a problem and you need to let the "fast level to endgame people" have their thing.
I'm saying you can have both a linear game and a non-linear game at the same time.
All you need to do is make an open zone with a bunch of different quests, mobs and activities scattered around and then have an option on character creation to activate signpost NPCs who direct the player along the optimal leveling chain. With that option ticked you get a standard linear quest hub game but with that option unticked those helper NPCs are inactive and you run around in whatever direction you feel like looking for quests hidden behind rocks, gathering and crafting or chasing sparkly collectibles or whatever.
Blizzard has lamented many times on the message boards that there are things they would like to change or add to WoW but cannot.
They would like to make the combat real time action but the player base would get confused and angry because they are used to the tab target combat. Also, the cries of "NGE! NGE! NGE!" would fill the message boards.
There are other things that would just require time and money but Blizzard won't do them because they don't have to to keep the game relevant.
Blizzard would like to upgrade the servers again to better handle Lake Wintergrasp like zones.
And they would like to upgrade the graphics engine to implement better special effects rather than trying to patch them into the ancient engine they are currently using.
So, there are things that are either community or cost prohibitive.
I'm fine with builds being shunned. As I stated, once you hit endgame and expect to raid, then you SHOULD theorycraft, min-max, and all of that. My point is that during the leveling process, let me have some fun with builds. Let me experiment. Let me have choices, even if those choices aren't something I can have at endgame.
There's nothing wrong with performance-based progression allowing players to make their own mistakes or fiddle around with builds while learning the game. It's what made Pre-Cata WoW so genuinely fun. I looked forward to being able to add a point to my talent tree after every gain in level. It gave me something to anticipate. Now, it's just, "Oh great, another 5-6 levels before there is any change to my skills. Yawn." It makes the act of gaining a level simply "meh."
Yes, you can have both useless content and useful content at the same time. I don't know why any developer would want that, though.
What you want as a developer is content that complements other content, not competes with other content. What you're describing is the worst design decision a dev could possibly make, and Blizzard is smarter than that. Have an option on character creation? So you lock the player behind his or her decision and make it as hard as possible to undo. At the very least this option needs to be toggleable at any point in the game. Otherwise, the fact it's a competing design choice instead of complementing one makes it a total waste of resources to implement.
If this game ever gets a green light, it should be called The Hindenburg: The MMO.