The only thing it does not fit is the bank account of TRION and XLGames. Labor Points are a monetization function and have NOTHING to do with balance or whatever idiotic excuse people come up with. They are in the game to make money nothing else.
As I stated above, the LP system itself is not an issue. The problem is, it affects way too much in the game.
I have edited my post to make my point more clear.
The reason it is so all pervasive is because it is part of the monetisation system. If LP's did not affect so many activities in game, then players would be less likely to;
1. Buy items from the cash shop to replenish LP pool
2. Purchase Patron status.
as a corollary, Patrons are more likely to log out once LP's are exhausted so that they can regenerate the LP pool, however, because F2P don't have this option a lot of F2P players are trying to remain online in the game while AFK, which does cause problems, how Trion deal with them should be interesting.
Exactly. It's seems like they have opened a pandora's box.
P.S. 4,8mln LPs assuming 1LP regen per minute = 3,385 days. So either 1 player will "work" 10 years for it solo, or 10 players after 1 year pooling resources together will have chance of getting Single Ayanad Weapon. Neat.
Fascinating and rather eye-opening table Theutus. The time required as shown is disturbing ...
Alyn
Sometimes the best things in game aren't easily attainable... it's why they are the best. If you consider someone has played WoW for 10 years now... imagine if now, he finally could craft his ultimate weapon... and that no one else in game had one. That's what this system is about... making you work for something, not just have it handed to you... and damn if wanting it doesn't mean you'll have to keep playing it. The "I want it all now" crowd has no place in AA. The game isn't designed that way no matter how hard you try to change it.
With patron status and by selling labor boosts they're insuring the first to have these items will be those who spend the most money. That is a paid advantage. They may as well just sell them in a cash shop.
^this... "aren't easily attainable" is negated when money is involved. Easy to obtain? Sure! Throw money at it.
Of course this is only my opinion, but I thought I would share and would definitely like to hear your thoughts.
Its something I completely disagree with.
Playing the Japanese version like I do, and having started before the F2P conversion I can basically tell you how much worse it is and the effects it is having.
1. Pre F2P, when everyone was SUBBED and thus playing(this is not a give me everything for free rant) LP was NOT, repeat NOT used on everything it is now, Crafting required FEWER items to make them, meaning even LESS LP was being used AND we received MORE LP while logged in AND when logged out than we are now, even as patrons paying the same amount we were before the F2P conversion!
And guess what? the economy was fine for a game that had been out for 2 years.
2. This game is a player based economy, it does not require more limits because of the amount of time placed on all farming items. Doesn't matter if you have 10 LP or 10000000LP(I know there is a smaller cap),it doesn't matter because that tree you just planted is still going to take the same amount of time to grow, and some of them can take over 2 full REAL LIFE days to grow...that's all the limit the game actually needs to keep the economy from over-flowing with goods.
3. This game REQUIRES people to be doing trade runs to work properly...the more limited people are in their creation of goods the less pirates have to steal, the fewer people are funneled into PvP by making them go to the opposing sides lands...
4. The current setup is actually making a lot of people create F2P accounts, AFKing with a character to build LP to use to do the mundane tasks they don't want to do on their main account to suck up their LP...
The system hurts far more than helps, in fact the only reason I see them having it like this is to try to force people to buy the 1000LP potions and while that may be fine in terms of on paper business sense (Read, lack of), it hampers the game in a way that will hurt it in the long run. It has already been seen in Korea and Japan that have had F2P the longest with their player exodus, Russia has already seen a massive drop off in players. its a system that eats itself since its going against the entire basis of the game.
Much better game without it all-together and they should have listened to the Korean and Japanese communities that offered up so many other ways to monetize the game in a way that would help, instead of hurt it.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
Originally posted by Golelorn Huh? This system was designed solely to entice people to buy labor potions or sign up as a patron. Patrons have pretty much unlimited labor points.
This is false, read my post above yours.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
Of course this is only my opinion, but I thought I would share and would definitely like to hear your thoughts.
Its something I completely disagree with.
Playing the Japanese version like I do, and having started before the F2P conversion I can basically tell you how much worse it is and the effects it is having.
1. Pre F2P, when everyone was SUBBED and thus playing(this is not a give me everything for free rant) LP was NOT, repeat NOT used on everything it is now, Crafting required FEWER items to make them, meaning even LESS LP was being used AND we received MORE LP while logged in AND when logged out than we are now, even as patrons paying the same amount we were before the F2P conversion!
And guess what? the economy was fine for a game that had been out for 2 years.
2. This game is a player based economy, it does not require more limits because of the amount of time placed on all farming items. Doesn't matter if you have 10 LP or 10000000LP(I know there is a smaller cap),it doesn't matter because that tree you just planted is still going to take the same amount of time to grow, and some of them can take over 2 full REAL LIFE days to grow...that's all the limit the game actually needs to keep the economy from over-flowing with goods.
3. This game REQUIRES people to be doing trade runs to work properly...the more limited people are in their creation of goods the less pirates have to steal, the fewer people are funneled into PvP by making them go to the opposing sides lands...
4. The current setup is actually making a lot of people create F2P accounts, AFKing with a character to build LP to use to do the mundane tasks they don't want to do on their main account to suck up their LP...
The system hurts far more than helps, in fact the only reason I see them having it like this is to try to force people to buy the 1000LP potions and while that may be fine in terms of on paper business sense (Read, lack of), it hampers the game in a way that will hurt it in the long run. It has already been seen in Korea and Japan that have had F2P the longest with their player exodus, Russia has already seen a massive drop off in players. its a system that eats itself since its going against the entire basis of the game.
Much better game without it all-together and they should have listened to the Korean and Japanese communities that offered up so many other ways to monetize the game in a way that would help, instead of hurt it.
People are going to leave this game in droves just as they have left every other game in droves once the newness wears off. That's an absolute certainty. Doesn't matter how good a game you make, people always jump ship to the next new shiny... they always want something new to do... and as much as they all swear they hate questing... they still keep doing it in every new game that comes along... because without some sort of time sink, there is no reason to play for very long. No one is going to play AA for years in the west... maybe a couple of months, that's it. I don't see a great PVP community in this game... a lot of PVErs, but not PVPers. Without the PVP, it's just a crafting game... and what's the point of just crafting for the sake of crafting? That gets old real fast. I give most of the Founders until WoD is released before you see them leave.
People are going to leave this game in droves just as they have left every other game in droves once the newness wears off. That's an absolute certainty. Doesn't matter how good a game you make, people always jump ship to the next new shiny... they always want something new to do... and as much as they all swear they hate questing... they still keep doing it in every new game that comes along... because without some sort of time sink, there is no reason to play for very long. No one is going to play AA for years in the west... maybe a couple of months, that's it. I don't see a great PVP community in this game... a lot of PVErs, but not PVPers. Without the PVP, it's just a crafting game... and what's the point of just crafting for the sake of crafting? That gets old real fast. I give most of the Founders until WoD is released before you see them leave.
I see, so because people will leave anyway it means creating a new system to help drive them away faster is OK...especially when that new system flies in the face of the previous system that did not cause people to leave...riiiight.
Anyway, I am not playing the American version, I will never play another PvP game in the west after seeing how great the Japanese PvPing community is.
In the west you get ganked and before you get taken away to the graveyard they are /pissing on your corpse and screaming out how they banged your mom and are going to go look for your sister to do the same to. There is little guild loyalty or pride and far too much bitching about little things.
In Japan, they will kill you, yes, of course. But if you weren't a puss, they will bow, respect you and even count you as a rival and even actively pursue you for more fights and it wont be them hiding in the shadows waiting for you to start fighting something else either. Their guilds are tight, they stick together, back each other up and have loyalty and when two guilds fight, it can get intense because its all about pride and that can last weeks or more with each trying to one up the other.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
I like the system a lot - its an ingenious alternative to item decay based economies.
People that love to compare AA to UO etc... always forget that AA has no item decay.
I challenge anyone to come up with a system that works over many years without item decay - XL came up with the Labor System - what do you got?
Better system? How is this better? Post after post, people are already discussing how the economy is already a mess. The system failed the moment they allowed some players to circumvent the limitations.
Originally posted by Golelorn Huh? This system was designed solely to entice people to buy labor potions or sign up as a patron. Patrons have pretty much unlimited labor points.
I can categoraliy deny this. I'm a patron and I am short of labor points all the time. I agree it must suck for those who aren't patrons. I will maintain my opinion that if they aren't charging for extra labor, they would charge for something else. It's just a matter of how you want to pay (assuming you are willing to spend anyting)
I will tell you, with all of the problems the game has, and their rather aggressive money making model, the game is still pretty populated, so it must be somewhat tolerable. Obviously, there has been a drop off, but the same time in some other games SWTOR, STAR TREK, WAR, it is holding it's own. Time will tell.
Labor points are simply an additional resource that requires management. If you want to be a tailor, you need to think about the various things you'll need to obtain, and how to do so efficiently. If you could just grow infinite amounts of cotton, and craft an infinite amount of super cool hats, those hats would be practically worthless. Labor points = valuable. If I could spend endless amounts of labor, it would entirely change the entire crafting / trading aspect of the game.
My guild is constantly working together to help one another harvest, process, build, and so forth. If you're someone with 5k labor points sitting around, you're going to be very helpful to the player who has spent all day gathering, who would now like his ore processed. He gains processed ore, you gain a sizable chunk of xp and proficiency in smelting. Value!
Do I love the fact that labor potions can be purchased via cash shop? In principle, no. Does the fact that I can obtain those labor potions off the auction house for 5 gold help alleviate that sting? It certainly does.
You do not have to spend money on this game to go places. Will you get from A to B a bit faster if you spend money? Sure. But you know what is far more effective than spending a few dollars to regen your labor? Having friends!
Spend all the money you want, you'll never have an advantage over a few friends playing together.
I like the system a lot - its an ingenious alternative to item decay based economies.
People that love to compare AA to UO etc... always forget that AA has no item decay.
I challenge anyone to come up with a system that works over many years without item decay - XL came up with the Labor System - what do you got?
Better system? How is this better? Post after post, people are already discussing how the economy is already a mess. The system failed the moment they allowed some players to circumvent the limitations.
The system failed how?
Players love to use that word a lot in MMOs - yet they don't really understand what it means.
Well, I have to admit, I've chosen to avoid this game....at least for now. So I can only go by what I read on it. So, please correct me if I was wrong, but is the economy in a healthy state right now?
The issue isn't whether or not you like the labor point system vs another.
The issue is allowing players to benefit over others by throwing real cash at the game.
It is no longer a game when this happens. It is a slot machine ... but instead of having to head to the pub to play one you can simply sit at home and throw your money away to get ahead of other players.
Hoo boy. I feel there are just as many good arguments for the Labor system as there are against it. The problem I see is first as DMKano pointed out, what alternatives are there? And second, quite a few of the arguments against the Labor system seem to be from people of the mindset of simply wanting an Oompalooma NOW! They don't care about the ramifications the Labor system may have on the game or its economy, they just want to jump in and get all the toys as fast as they can. And I say fuck that. The MMO landscape is already cluttered with a multitude of these types of instant gratification games and if you want that why not go play one of those.
Is the Labor system perfect? No. Can it be exploited? Certainly. Anyone willing to throw enough money and time at it will be able to subvert the system. However, please name me any system sacrosanct from this behavior. Exploiters and whales will always be with us, and no matter what rules companies put in place these people will always find ways to subvert them as they have no interest in anything but their own self aggrandisement. Saying the Labor system needs to be removed because these types of people exist, is as silly as saying because criminals exist the rule of law should be abolished.
The issue isn't whether or not you like the labor point system vs another.
The issue is allowing players to benefit over others by throwing real cash at the game.
It is no longer a game when this happens. It is a slot machine ... but instead of having to head to the pub to play one you can simply sit at home and throw your money away to get ahead of other players.
I suppose I don't really see it that way. In my opinion, the advantage is minimal. It's 1000 labor with a 12 hour cooldown for roughly $2.50, or 5 gold.
That gold price is less than you would obtain from doing a single medium distance trade run. By playing the game normally I can stock up on labor potions with in game currency alone. With friends, you can make hundreds of gold. Having access to land, and a group of people who share your common goals is a much larger advantage than the $2.50 some players are willing to spend.
The issue isn't whether or not you like the labor point system vs another.
The issue is allowing players to benefit over others by throwing real cash at the game.
It is no longer a game when this happens. It is a slot machine ... but instead of having to head to the pub to play one you can simply sit at home and throw your money away to get ahead of other players.
You can throw $1,000,000 at ArcheAge cash shop and can still get absolutely wrecked by a F2P player.
That's reality.
Paying to "faster" is not winning - winning is guilds that work together - a top guild can have a bunch of f2p players that work together well and buy everything in AH including all cash shop items via in game gold.
You seem to have a problem with games that allow rich players to spend a crap ton of money and fund the game for 1000s of other players who don't want to spend a cent.
We live in a world where a very small percent of popolation owns vast majority of wealth - let the 1%er whales fund games for all, I see no issue with this.
Also think about this from a Dev point of view - subscription only model is *unsustainable* past 6 months for vast majority of games due to naturally shrinking playerbase over time.
Without cash shops MMORPG industry today would not exist - as almost all games save a handful would be shutdown and a huge percent of MMO Devs would be working for EA or be completely out of gaming industry.
You said it better than I could DM, lol.
I understand why this kind of thing gets people in a tizzy. In principle, it can sound pretty crappy. But in practice, in this case, it works out quite well. Having feared the worst when I heard about labor pots and such, I could not be more pleased with the reality of it.
The gaming population is going to both love and complain about Archeage for a long time. Because, like EvE, Archeage is about Have's an Have not's. Those that Have are going to have a major advantage over those that have very little. But the advantage comes from friends, organization, and free time. Not from your wallet.
Just to give a badass example - Today, my guild has taken over a small island off somewhere in a PvP zone. They're using it to plant and harvest thousands of trees. Dozens of people planting, with Dozens more defending and killing griefers / looters. Last week they managed to harvest 2000 trees. This week they're going for 5000. Talk about an advantage! A single player with a large wallet is inconsequential.
The problem I see is first as DMKano pointed out, what alternatives are there? And second, quite a few of the arguments against the Labor system seem to be from people of the mindset of simply wanting an Oompalooma NOW! They don't care about the ramifications the Labor system may have on the game or its economy
That's because you completely ignore the 3rd type, the ones that played the game when it was a sub only game that disproves the first type, and make the second type look even worse. And you do this because you are the fourth type.
The type that just falls in line with whatever a company does no matter what.
It has been proven in 2 different markets by people that played the game probably before you even knew about it, that the LP system, which gave MORE LP and had fewer LP sinks had no bad ramifications other than taking away from a great crafting game and was made far worse with the F2P changes.
But rage on, defend the man because....whatever. Then come back here in 3-6 months and complain about the game being low population for reasons you cannot fathom and chalk it up to whichever lame excuse you can think of.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
We live in a world where a very small percent of popolation owns vast majority of wealth - let the 1%er whales fund games for all, I see no issue with this.
There are so many ways to defend this and you go this route?!?
over 30% of the worlds wealth went to the top 1% in the last 44 years...and where do you think that's going to lead in another 20?
Just because things are the way they are now does not make it right, or the way it always was. Wow, crazy argument you went with.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
I like the system a lot - its an ingenious alternative to item decay based economies.
People that love to compare AA to UO etc... always forget that AA has no item decay.
I challenge anyone to come up with a system that works over many years without item decay - XL came up with the Labor System - what do you got?
But why not just use item decay? Is the LP system a better way for Trion/XL to monetize?
I would have to think about whether item decay or labor points is a better system. Not sure atm. However, the monetization piece is a wash really. If they didn't get some money from labor, they would get it somewhere else. Either way, we wouldn't be happy about it.
Completely disagree. Marvel Online has a great F2P system as does POE. I don't see anyone complaining of their systems.
P.S. 4,8mln LPs assuming 1LP regen per minute = 3,385 days. So either 1 player will "work" 10 years for it solo, or 10 players after 1 year pooling resources together will have chance of getting Single Ayanad Weapon. Neat.
Fascinating and rather eye-opening table Theutus. The time required as shown is disturbing ...
Alyn
Sometimes the best things in game aren't easily attainable... it's why they are the best. If you consider someone has played WoW for 10 years now... imagine if now, he finally could craft his ultimate weapon... and that no one else in game had one. That's what this system is about... making you work for something, not just have it handed to you... and damn if wanting it doesn't mean you'll have to keep playing it. The "I want it all now" crowd has no place in AA. The game isn't designed that way no matter how hard you try to change it.
That just sounds like grind for the sake of grinding. Isn't the attunement grind of Wildstar commonly referred to as one the factors that contributed to its downfall?
I like the system a lot - its an ingenious alternative to item decay based economies.
People that love to compare AA to UO etc... always forget that AA has no item decay.
I challenge anyone to come up with a system that works over many years without item decay - XL came up with the Labor System - what do you got?
But why not just use item decay? Is the LP system a better way for Trion/XL to monetize?
I would have to think about whether item decay or labor points is a better system. Not sure atm. However, the monetization piece is a wash really. If they didn't get some money from labor, they would get it somewhere else. Either way, we wouldn't be happy about it.
Completely disagree. Marvel Online has a great F2P system as does POE. I don't see anyone complaining of their systems.
Correct. Most of the arguments in favor of LP here come from those that either didn't know about the game before the F2P conversion or didn't pay attention to the massive amount of posts from those that were playing all that time before the conversion that where posting a great many other ways for them to monetize without furthering ruining the game. One of the biggest complaints about AA by those that stopped playing in Korea was that the crafting system was crippled by its LP system...a system that was giving MORE LP and had FEWER LP syncs than the F2P conversion brought.
One of the better ideas was to actually limit how many trade runs a player could make in a specific amount of time and monetize that, want to do another trade run? Buy a trade run ticket from the shop. The vast majority of cash in the game comes from trade runs, that would greatly control the economy while freeing up the vast majority of the game.
Make being a criminal actually punishable. Place an item in the cash shop that allows a person to put a bounty on another player if they are a criminal.
So many things could have been monetized that players would have wanted without having to cripple one of the biggest draws of the game.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
The issue isn't whether or not you like the labor point system vs another.
The issue is allowing players to benefit over others by throwing real cash at the game.
It is no longer a game when this happens. It is a slot machine ... but instead of having to head to the pub to play one you can simply sit at home and throw your money away to get ahead of other players.
You can throw $1,000,000 at ArcheAge cash shop and can still get absolutely wrecked by a F2P player.
That's reality.
Paying to "faster" is not winning - winning is guilds that work together - a top guild can have a bunch of f2p players that work together well and buy everything in AH including all cash shop items via in game gold.
You seem to have a problem with games that allow rich players to spend a crap ton of money and fund the game for 1000s of other players who don't want to spend a cent.
We live in a world where a very small percent of popolation owns vast majority of wealth - let the 1%er whales fund games for all, I see no issue with this.
Also think about this from a Dev point of view - subscription only model is *unsustainable* past 6 months for vast majority of games due to naturally shrinking playerbase over time.
Without cash shops MMORPG industry today would not exist - as almost all games save a handful would be shutdown and a huge percent of MMO Devs would be working for EA or be completely out of gaming industry.
Just like you can walk into a casino with ten thousand and walk out empty handed while the guy who plays drops a nickel slot can win big.
I agree with the second to last paragraph but to me, it still seems too monetized. Why couldn't a cash shop like PoE or MH work for this one? Or even B2P ala Guild Wars with cosmetic only items?
The problem I see is first as DMKano pointed out, what alternatives are there? And second, quite a few of the arguments against the Labor system seem to be from people of the mindset of simply wanting an Oompalooma NOW! They don't care about the ramifications the Labor system may have on the game or its economy
That's because you completely ignore the 3rd type, the ones that played the game when it was a sub only game that disproves the first type, and make the second type look even worse. And you do this because you are the fourth type.
The type that just falls in line with whatever a company does no matter what.
It has been proven in 2 different markets by people that played the game probably before you even knew about it, that the LP system, which gave MORE LP and had fewer LP sinks had no bad ramifications other than taking away from a great crafting game and was made far worse with the F2P changes.
But rage on, defend the man because....whatever. Then come back here in 3-6 months and complain about the game being low population for reasons you cannot fathom and chalk it up to whichever lame excuse you can think of.
You mean the game that was sub only and did so poorly it had to be revamped as free to play? I'm not sure I follow your logic.
And "rage on and defend the man"? Really? Go back and reread both of our posts. You may want to give a good hard think as to just which of us is guilty of foaming at the mouth.
For those who aren't familiar, labor points are a resource you use to craft, mine, farm, and some other things. They are like mana in that you have to use them in order to perform these activities and they slowly build back up over time. (probably not the best description, but it gives the general idea for those not familiar with them)
Initially, they are a pain in the but. They limit how much you can do, and the build up is to slow (slower for non patrons). I chaffed under this sort of system. I've never been limited like this that I can remember. I like to mine and build up resources, and I am constantly short of labor points. It breaks my heart when I have to pass a node because I don't have enough.
So with the limiting affect they have, why have they grown on me? The short of it is the economy. This is one of the few games, that I feel your efforts in producing and selling things actually have a value that reflects the effort you have to put into it. People put things on the AH as cheaply as they can, like every other game, but there is the sense that the valuation is more accurate. It also means that not everybody is flooding the AH, with cheap goods, just to muck things up. To me, it gives the dedicated crafters and gatherers a higher status than in many games.
Of course this is only my opinion, but I thought I would share and would definitely like to hear your thoughts.
I
That is a very nice perspective of labor point system. I like the system because it actually gives me a "living breathing feel", you know the thing every poster in this forum wants : "give us living breathing world !!". but as soon as something realistic like this implemented they start : "ohh nooosss, i want to craft all day long, i want to craft while afk!!!" as if they can craft while sleeping in real world..well anyways, i like the system because it provides a challenge to actually manage my playstyle just like i manage my life.
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Comments
Exactly. It's seems like they have opened a pandora's box.
^this... "aren't easily attainable" is negated when money is involved. Easy to obtain? Sure! Throw money at it.
Its something I completely disagree with.
Playing the Japanese version like I do, and having started before the F2P conversion I can basically tell you how much worse it is and the effects it is having.
1. Pre F2P, when everyone was SUBBED and thus playing(this is not a give me everything for free rant) LP was NOT, repeat NOT used on everything it is now, Crafting required FEWER items to make them, meaning even LESS LP was being used AND we received MORE LP while logged in AND when logged out than we are now, even as patrons paying the same amount we were before the F2P conversion!
And guess what? the economy was fine for a game that had been out for 2 years.
2. This game is a player based economy, it does not require more limits because of the amount of time placed on all farming items. Doesn't matter if you have 10 LP or 10000000LP(I know there is a smaller cap),it doesn't matter because that tree you just planted is still going to take the same amount of time to grow, and some of them can take over 2 full REAL LIFE days to grow...that's all the limit the game actually needs to keep the economy from over-flowing with goods.
3. This game REQUIRES people to be doing trade runs to work properly...the more limited people are in their creation of goods the less pirates have to steal, the fewer people are funneled into PvP by making them go to the opposing sides lands...
4. The current setup is actually making a lot of people create F2P accounts, AFKing with a character to build LP to use to do the mundane tasks they don't want to do on their main account to suck up their LP...
The system hurts far more than helps, in fact the only reason I see them having it like this is to try to force people to buy the 1000LP potions and while that may be fine in terms of on paper business sense (Read, lack of), it hampers the game in a way that will hurt it in the long run. It has already been seen in Korea and Japan that have had F2P the longest with their player exodus, Russia has already seen a massive drop off in players. its a system that eats itself since its going against the entire basis of the game.
Much better game without it all-together and they should have listened to the Korean and Japanese communities that offered up so many other ways to monetize the game in a way that would help, instead of hurt it.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
This is false, read my post above yours.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
People are going to leave this game in droves just as they have left every other game in droves once the newness wears off. That's an absolute certainty. Doesn't matter how good a game you make, people always jump ship to the next new shiny... they always want something new to do... and as much as they all swear they hate questing... they still keep doing it in every new game that comes along... because without some sort of time sink, there is no reason to play for very long. No one is going to play AA for years in the west... maybe a couple of months, that's it. I don't see a great PVP community in this game... a lot of PVErs, but not PVPers. Without the PVP, it's just a crafting game... and what's the point of just crafting for the sake of crafting? That gets old real fast. I give most of the Founders until WoD is released before you see them leave.
I see, so because people will leave anyway it means creating a new system to help drive them away faster is OK...especially when that new system flies in the face of the previous system that did not cause people to leave...riiiight.
Anyway, I am not playing the American version, I will never play another PvP game in the west after seeing how great the Japanese PvPing community is.
In the west you get ganked and before you get taken away to the graveyard they are /pissing on your corpse and screaming out how they banged your mom and are going to go look for your sister to do the same to. There is little guild loyalty or pride and far too much bitching about little things.
In Japan, they will kill you, yes, of course. But if you weren't a puss, they will bow, respect you and even count you as a rival and even actively pursue you for more fights and it wont be them hiding in the shadows waiting for you to start fighting something else either. Their guilds are tight, they stick together, back each other up and have loyalty and when two guilds fight, it can get intense because its all about pride and that can last weeks or more with each trying to one up the other.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
Better system? How is this better? Post after post, people are already discussing how the economy is already a mess. The system failed the moment they allowed some players to circumvent the limitations.
I can categoraliy deny this. I'm a patron and I am short of labor points all the time. I agree it must suck for those who aren't patrons. I will maintain my opinion that if they aren't charging for extra labor, they would charge for something else. It's just a matter of how you want to pay (assuming you are willing to spend anyting)
I will tell you, with all of the problems the game has, and their rather aggressive money making model, the game is still pretty populated, so it must be somewhat tolerable. Obviously, there has been a drop off, but the same time in some other games SWTOR, STAR TREK, WAR, it is holding it's own. Time will tell.
I self identify as a monkey.
Labor points are simply an additional resource that requires management. If you want to be a tailor, you need to think about the various things you'll need to obtain, and how to do so efficiently. If you could just grow infinite amounts of cotton, and craft an infinite amount of super cool hats, those hats would be practically worthless. Labor points = valuable. If I could spend endless amounts of labor, it would entirely change the entire crafting / trading aspect of the game.
My guild is constantly working together to help one another harvest, process, build, and so forth. If you're someone with 5k labor points sitting around, you're going to be very helpful to the player who has spent all day gathering, who would now like his ore processed. He gains processed ore, you gain a sizable chunk of xp and proficiency in smelting. Value!
Do I love the fact that labor potions can be purchased via cash shop? In principle, no. Does the fact that I can obtain those labor potions off the auction house for 5 gold help alleviate that sting? It certainly does.
You do not have to spend money on this game to go places. Will you get from A to B a bit faster if you spend money? Sure. But you know what is far more effective than spending a few dollars to regen your labor? Having friends!
Spend all the money you want, you'll never have an advantage over a few friends playing together.
Well, I have to admit, I've chosen to avoid this game....at least for now. So I can only go by what I read on it. So, please correct me if I was wrong, but is the economy in a healthy state right now?
The issue isn't whether or not you like the labor point system vs another.
The issue is allowing players to benefit over others by throwing real cash at the game.
It is no longer a game when this happens. It is a slot machine ... but instead of having to head to the pub to play one you can simply sit at home and throw your money away to get ahead of other players.
You stay sassy!
Hoo boy. I feel there are just as many good arguments for the Labor system as there are against it. The problem I see is first as DMKano pointed out, what alternatives are there? And second, quite a few of the arguments against the Labor system seem to be from people of the mindset of simply wanting an Oompalooma NOW! They don't care about the ramifications the Labor system may have on the game or its economy, they just want to jump in and get all the toys as fast as they can. And I say fuck that. The MMO landscape is already cluttered with a multitude of these types of instant gratification games and if you want that why not go play one of those.
Is the Labor system perfect? No. Can it be exploited? Certainly. Anyone willing to throw enough money and time at it will be able to subvert the system. However, please name me any system sacrosanct from this behavior. Exploiters and whales will always be with us, and no matter what rules companies put in place these people will always find ways to subvert them as they have no interest in anything but their own self aggrandisement. Saying the Labor system needs to be removed because these types of people exist, is as silly as saying because criminals exist the rule of law should be abolished.
"Don't care how, I want my land now"
I suppose I don't really see it that way. In my opinion, the advantage is minimal. It's 1000 labor with a 12 hour cooldown for roughly $2.50, or 5 gold.
That gold price is less than you would obtain from doing a single medium distance trade run. By playing the game normally I can stock up on labor potions with in game currency alone. With friends, you can make hundreds of gold. Having access to land, and a group of people who share your common goals is a much larger advantage than the $2.50 some players are willing to spend.
Basically any system that doesn't have labor points. Seriously. It's a horrible system.
You said it better than I could DM, lol.
I understand why this kind of thing gets people in a tizzy. In principle, it can sound pretty crappy. But in practice, in this case, it works out quite well. Having feared the worst when I heard about labor pots and such, I could not be more pleased with the reality of it.
The gaming population is going to both love and complain about Archeage for a long time. Because, like EvE, Archeage is about Have's an Have not's. Those that Have are going to have a major advantage over those that have very little. But the advantage comes from friends, organization, and free time. Not from your wallet.
Just to give a badass example - Today, my guild has taken over a small island off somewhere in a PvP zone. They're using it to plant and harvest thousands of trees. Dozens of people planting, with Dozens more defending and killing griefers / looters. Last week they managed to harvest 2000 trees. This week they're going for 5000. Talk about an advantage! A single player with a large wallet is inconsequential.
That's because you completely ignore the 3rd type, the ones that played the game when it was a sub only game that disproves the first type, and make the second type look even worse. And you do this because you are the fourth type.
The type that just falls in line with whatever a company does no matter what.
It has been proven in 2 different markets by people that played the game probably before you even knew about it, that the LP system, which gave MORE LP and had fewer LP sinks had no bad ramifications other than taking away from a great crafting game and was made far worse with the F2P changes.
But rage on, defend the man because....whatever. Then come back here in 3-6 months and complain about the game being low population for reasons you cannot fathom and chalk it up to whichever lame excuse you can think of.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
There are so many ways to defend this and you go this route?!?
over 30% of the worlds wealth went to the top 1% in the last 44 years...and where do you think that's going to lead in another 20?
Just because things are the way they are now does not make it right, or the way it always was. Wow, crazy argument you went with.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
Completely disagree. Marvel Online has a great F2P system as does POE. I don't see anyone complaining of their systems.
That just sounds like grind for the sake of grinding. Isn't the attunement grind of Wildstar commonly referred to as one the factors that contributed to its downfall?
Correct. Most of the arguments in favor of LP here come from those that either didn't know about the game before the F2P conversion or didn't pay attention to the massive amount of posts from those that were playing all that time before the conversion that where posting a great many other ways for them to monetize without furthering ruining the game. One of the biggest complaints about AA by those that stopped playing in Korea was that the crafting system was crippled by its LP system...a system that was giving MORE LP and had FEWER LP syncs than the F2P conversion brought.
One of the better ideas was to actually limit how many trade runs a player could make in a specific amount of time and monetize that, want to do another trade run? Buy a trade run ticket from the shop. The vast majority of cash in the game comes from trade runs, that would greatly control the economy while freeing up the vast majority of the game.
Make being a criminal actually punishable. Place an item in the cash shop that allows a person to put a bounty on another player if they are a criminal.
So many things could have been monetized that players would have wanted without having to cripple one of the biggest draws of the game.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
Just like you can walk into a casino with ten thousand and walk out empty handed while the guy who plays drops a nickel slot can win big.
I agree with the second to last paragraph but to me, it still seems too monetized. Why couldn't a cash shop like PoE or MH work for this one? Or even B2P ala Guild Wars with cosmetic only items?
You mean the game that was sub only and did so poorly it had to be revamped as free to play? I'm not sure I follow your logic.
And "rage on and defend the man"? Really? Go back and reread both of our posts. You may want to give a good hard think as to just which of us is guilty of foaming at the mouth.
That is a very nice perspective of labor point system. I like the system because it actually gives me a "living breathing feel", you know the thing every poster in this forum wants : "give us living breathing world !!". but as soon as something realistic like this implemented they start : "ohh nooosss, i want to craft all day long, i want to craft while afk!!!" as if they can craft while sleeping in real world..well anyways, i like the system because it provides a challenge to actually manage my playstyle just like i manage my life.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.