Myself and about 80% of my MMORPG guild have recently made the transition away from MMORPGs to League of Legends and Smite. I also know of many people that have both WoW and LoL on their gaming resumee, and as such believe this to be a sizeable number of people who did, indeed, wander from one genre to the next.
MOBAs are not nearly as time-consuming as MMORPGs for an average gamer, which is a big part ,but the bigger part at least for my community of roughly 25 people was the fact that modern MMORPGs do not really provide much of a unique gameplay experience and challenge anymore.
The skillcap is so low, and the skill floor needed to achieve anything is basically nonexistent, that all but the most lazy of us started to enjoy the challenge of the occasional ranked LoL match, and slowly grew to appreciate it.
Personally, I think what we see is roughly a 4-era history in online games, where each new era was vastly bigger than its predecessor, and became the primary focus for online gamers. Also, each era support different companies, and so far no company has managed to repeat their success.
It started with ID software and Doom, Quake, Unreal. Basically, action shooters. That genre was the top dog in early online gaming, money-wise and player-wise.
Then came the rise of the MMORPG, of which Blizzard and World of WarCraft became the top dog in business. Persistent game worlds, addictive gameplay and repeatable content within a non-repeatable game progression.
Then came the rise of the console online gaming and the success of the tactical shooter and military games. Even in its heyday, Call of Duty sales ecliped WoW sales easily, not to mentioned the also wildly successful Battlefield series.
Now, today, we have seen the first era fade to all but nothing, the second era seems to be starting in on its sunset, and the third era has probably just surpassed its peak. The MOBA and , by extension, lobby game (think World of tanks, Mechwarrior, Star Conflict etc.) is the new era. Already, the market leader has eclipsed WoWs player numbers by a factor of almost 10 within 4 years, and the top 3 online games are LoL, WoT and Dota2.
As such, I believe that the MOBA genre is simply the new era, and the MMORPG will recede to the niche status of the action shooter, and possibly soon the tactical shooter will follow: Genres that work, that can be successful, but genres that had their biggest moment in the past.
I am very curious if Star Citizen will be able to revive a genre long thought dead, and disprove my thoughts as too small in focus. So far, no genre that was laid to rest has been revived to former glory.
Remember the guy who always said he only enjoyed PVP and hatred leveling, crafting and socializing? He's off playing MOBAs now more often than not.
And what have we seen grow in the MMORPG space?
That's right, much easier leveling, a huge general shift away from the importance of crafting, and the need for socialising being reduced to the barest minimum. Add to this the ever increasing reliance on arenas and PvP as a design focus, including death matches and capture the flag games.
It seems MMORPGs may well be chasing that guy as well, by becoming more MOBA like in their philosophy of all this and 'small chunk' play (30-60 mins).
And what of the shrinking of skills on the hotbar? The deliberate chasing of E-Sport balance?
I am surprised so few can understand what's being said in the OP and can't draw parallels... Maybe there are just a lot of newer players now that don't fully understand how these games have actually changed, I don't know.
I believe Arena Esport PvP became popular in MMOs because WoW during TBC was trying to copy Guild Wars 1 which at the time was overhyped for its PvP arena stuff.
TBC was released in 2007, and what was soaring in popularity in 2007?
Yup, MOBAs. And of course WoW devs were playing them.
Are we really saying that WoW devs looked towards a niche game such as GW for influence and not the incredibly popular games that they themselves were playing?
Blizzard has always looked towards popular niche games for ideas. that is common knowledge today.
TBC wanted to copy GW1's PvP arena which was the hype back then.
WoTLK, wanted to copy Warhammer which was the hype back then
CAT wanted to copy Rift, which was the hype back then
MoP well was meant to appeal to the Asian again. Plus the GW2 hype
WoD is to finish off the GW2 hype
Blizzard has always copied other games for WoW. just check out Vanilla WoW's beta. The Beta Paladin and EQ Cleric were copy paste.
Remember the guy who always said he only enjoyed PVP and hatred leveling, crafting and socializing? He's off playing MOBAs now more often than not.
And what have we seen grow in the MMORPG space?
That's right, much easier leveling, a huge general shift away from the importance of crafting, and the need for socialising being reduced to the barest minimum. Add to this the ever increasing reliance on arenas and PvP as a design focus, including death matches and capture the flag games.
It seems MMORPGs may well be chasing that guy as well, by becoming more MOBA like in their philosophy of all this and 'small chunk' play (30-60 mins).
And what of the shrinking of skills on the hotbar? The deliberate chasing of E-Sport balance?
I am surprised so few can understand what's being said in the OP and can't draw parallels... Maybe there are just a lot of newer players now that don't fully understand how these games have actually changed, I don't know.
I believe Arena Esport PvP became popular in MMOs because WoW during TBC was trying to copy Guild Wars 1 which at the time was overhyped for its PvP arena stuff.
TBC was released in 2007, and what was soaring in popularity in 2007?
Yup, MOBAs. And of course WoW devs were playing them.
Are we really saying that WoW devs looked towards a niche game such as GW for influence and not the incredibly popular games that they themselves were playing?
Blizzard has always looked towards popular niche games for ideas. that is common knowledge today.
TBC wanted to copy GW1's PvP arena which was the hype back then.
Blizzard has always copied other games for WoW. just check out Vanilla WoW's beta. The Beta Paladin and EQ Cleric were copy paste.
Yes, I do not challenge the fact that Blizz copy, that's a given.
What I am challenging is your rock hard assertion of WHAT they were playing and what they were influenced by during 2004-2007 in regards to the arena E-sport design philosophy.
You say GW, I say most likely DotA.
To be fair, GW itself might itself been heavily influenced by the emergence of DotA in it's arena PvP focus? DotA appeared in, what, 2003? GW didn't come along 'till 2005?
Remember the guy who always said he only enjoyed PVP and hatred leveling, crafting and socializing? He's off playing MOBAs now more often than not.
And what have we seen grow in the MMORPG space?
That's right, much easier leveling, a huge general shift away from the importance of crafting, and the need for socialising being reduced to the barest minimum. Add to this the ever increasing reliance on arenas and PvP as a design focus, including death matches and capture the flag games.
It seems MMORPGs may well be chasing that guy as well, by becoming more MOBA like in their philosophy of all this and 'small chunk' play (30-60 mins).
And what of the shrinking of skills on the hotbar? The deliberate chasing of E-Sport balance?
I am surprised so few can understand what's being said in the OP and can't draw parallels... Maybe there are just a lot of newer players now that don't fully understand how these games have actually changed, I don't know.
I believe Arena Esport PvP became popular in MMOs because WoW during TBC was trying to copy Guild Wars 1 which at the time was overhyped for its PvP arena stuff.
TBC was released in 2007, and what was soaring in popularity in 2007?
Yup, MOBAs. And of course WoW devs were playing them.
Are we really saying that WoW devs looked towards a niche game such as GW for influence and not the incredibly popular games that they themselves were playing?
Ok, first off, if you're going to throw out blatant references like "of course WoW devs were playing them" then at least have some sort of reference for that.
Secondly, even if they are playing them (and the odds of some devs playing are pretty good), it's a huge stretch to suggest that they are/were getting inspiration from them.
There are a couple reasons that MMORPGs have been trending in the direction they have. First is due to their own popularity. There are literally double the number of games available to the consumer, and that number isn't getting lower. Games longevity is also getting longer and longer, meaning players are staying in games longer. Also, players are playing more games than they used to. They might have 2 or 3 or 5 games on the go at once, whereas back "in the day" you basically played one game only (hence the negative stigma attached to early adopters of games like EQ and WoW that they were anti-social hermits).
Also, there is a focus on end-game content now. It's unfortunate that so many "skip" the story nowadays, but it does happen. So serving up a lengthy levelling process simply hurts your game, even if it's "right" to execute it like that.
In the end, the MMORPG market is larger than it ever has been, but it is still a niche market in and of itself. These games can't/won't appeal to MOBA players who aren't interested in MMORPGs already. Blizzard actually went and created their own MOBA to tackle this market, and they should, simply because it's so large a market. However, I don't think that the markets are as closely related as you think.
Just because one appeared before the other doesn't necessarily mean the latter was influenced by the former. Its a logical fallacy: Post hoc ergo propter hoc
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
I don't play MOBAs, they just don't appeal to me, so I ask this as a question rather than making it as a statement.
This isn't a thread about success through numbers and sales, it is a thread about the success of the genre to be everything it once promised.
Many people blame WoW for "ruining the genre", but I wonder if we are looking in the wrong place and that WoW itself was a victim... A victim of MOBA design philosophies, monetisation, and community.
MMORPG devs clearly play MOBAs more than each others games, so how much of what they experienced and heard in the echo chamber of the MOBA community influenced them?
Should be be blaming these games, in a large part, for where we are right now this genre?
So, thoughts about the toxic reach of the MOBA into the DNA of the MMORPG. Go for it.
I think it's a culmination of both your points. First WoW ruined MMO's for over 10 years which resulted in many studios worried about chasing the WoW money thinking if they could make a better WoW it would result in more money for them. Sadly it took entirely too long for studios to see this was incorrect and a losing proposition. We're right now in the tail end of the WoW clone era.....or at least I think we are.
Secondly I feel that MOBA's took too many jaded MMO gamers from the genre, couple this with poorly and rushed out WoW clones it resulted in the shape we see today. I know of no MOBA player who is or more succinctly was an MMO player. I know there are some but if I was to put a percentage on the MOBA player who also played or plays MMO's I would say it is much greater then 50%.
I do not however think that MOBA's are taking players away because of the gameplay but because of the lack of full-fledged MMO's.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Just because one appeared before the other doesn't necessarily mean the latter was influenced by the former. Its a logical fallacy: Post hoc ergo propter hoc
Actually, it's just a question. See the question marks and stuff?
Just because one appeared before the other doesn't necessarily mean the latter was influenced by the former. Its a logical fallacy: Post hoc ergo propter hoc
Actually, it's just a question. See the question marks and stuff?
It's something we do to stimulate conversation.
You want to invite people to make wrong assumptions?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Just because one appeared before the other doesn't necessarily mean the latter was influenced by the former. Its a logical fallacy: Post hoc ergo propter hoc
Actually, it's just a question. See the question marks and stuff?
It's something we do to stimulate conversation.
You want to invite people to make wrong assumptions?
No, I clearly asked a question and invited thoughts for discussion.
You are being a pedant now and attempting to derail this thread with some kind of cleverness contest. I won't respond to you any more here, but feel free to PM me if you have more to say on this.
I don't play MOBAs, they just don't appeal to me, so I ask this as a question rather than making it as a statement.
This isn't a thread about success through numbers and sales, it is a thread about the success of the genre to be everything it once promised.
Many people blame WoW for "ruining the genre", but I wonder if we are looking in the wrong place and that WoW itself was a victim... A victim of MOBA design philosophies, monetisation, and community.
MMORPG devs clearly play MOBAs more than each others games, so how much of what they experienced and heard in the echo chamber of the MOBA community influenced them?
Should be be blaming these games, in a large part, for where we are right now this genre?
So, thoughts about the toxic reach of the MOBA into the DNA of the MMORPG. Go for it.
I think it's a culmination of both your points. First WoW ruined MMO's for over 10 years which resulted in many studios worried about chasing the WoW money thinking if they could make a better WoW it would result in more money for them. Sadly it took entirely too long for studios to see this was incorrect and a losing proposition. We're right now in the tail end of the WoW clone era.....or at least I think we are.
Ahh, but this is a core question... WoW may have 'ruined' MMORPGs, but what 'ruined' WoW?
I don't play MOBAs, they just don't appeal to me, so I ask this as a question rather than making it as a statement.
This isn't a thread about success through numbers and sales, it is a thread about the success of the genre to be everything it once promised.
Many people blame WoW for "ruining the genre", but I wonder if we are looking in the wrong place and that WoW itself was a victim... A victim of MOBA design philosophies, monetisation, and community.
MMORPG devs clearly play MOBAs more than each others games, so how much of what they experienced and heard in the echo chamber of the MOBA community influenced them?
Should be be blaming these games, in a large part, for where we are right now this genre?
So, thoughts about the toxic reach of the MOBA into the DNA of the MMORPG. Go for it.
I really need more information to discuss this. What aspects of MOBA game play influenced or are influencing MMORPGs? How is this related to WoW and WoW's mechanics? In a more general sense, how is the MMORPG genre ruined?
The reason I'm asking these questions is because "quality" in video games is almost entirely subjective. Once the bugs are squashed and the lag is mostly gone, it comes down to what people like. The MMORPG genre doesn't seem to be ruined for the millions of people playing, so if MOBAs are influencing the mechanics in MMORPGs, for all the people currently happy with it, it's improving the genre, not ruining it.
Even assuming the genre is being ruined, that still leaves the connection between MOBA mechanics and MMORPG mechanics in general a little fuzzy. There just aren't that many MOBA mechanics. MOBAs are also nearly 100% PvP oriented and about as skill based as it is possible to get in a video game. This doesn't seem at all like MMORPGs where Time Invested is what mostly generates results.
So I really need more clarification here. That does not mean anyone is obligated to actually explain these things to me. Perhaps it's just obvious and I'm missing it. I'm totally OK with that.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I don't play MOBAs, they just don't appeal to me, so I ask this as a question rather than making it as a statement.
This isn't a thread about success through numbers and sales, it is a thread about the success of the genre to be everything it once promised.
Many people blame WoW for "ruining the genre", but I wonder if we are looking in the wrong place and that WoW itself was a victim... A victim of MOBA design philosophies, monetisation, and community.
MMORPG devs clearly play MOBAs more than each others games, so how much of what they experienced and heard in the echo chamber of the MOBA community influenced them?
Should be be blaming these games, in a large part, for where we are right now this genre?
So, thoughts about the toxic reach of the MOBA into the DNA of the MMORPG. Go for it.
I really need more information to discuss this. What aspects of MOBA game play influenced or are influencing MMORPGs? How is this related to WoW and WoW's mechanics? In a more general sense, how is the MMORPG genre ruined?
The reason I'm asking these questions is because "quality" in video games is almost entirely subjective. Once the bugs are squashed and the lag is mostly gone, it comes down to what people like. The MMORPG genre doesn't seem to be ruined for the millions of people playing, so if MOBAs are influencing the mechanics in MMORPGs, for all the people currently happy with it, it's improving the genre, not ruining it.
Even assuming the genre is being ruined, that still leaves the connection between MOBA mechanics and MMORPG mechanics in general a little fuzzy. There just aren't that many MOBA mechanics. MOBAs are also nearly 100% PvP oriented and about as skill based as it is possible to get in a video game. This doesn't seem at all like MMORPGs where Time Invested is what mostly generates results.
So I really need more clarification here. That does not mean anyone is obligated to actually explain these things to me. Perhaps it's just obvious and I'm missing it. I'm totally OK with that.
I just assume it is because "they are ruining my games". You know, indirectly... by being more popular.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
I just assume it is because "they are ruining my games". You know, indirectly... by being more popular.
Pretty much this. Another form of epleen ... my game is no longer as popular as this new kind ... it must be bad, and I need to file complaint somewhere ....
I just assume it is because "they are ruining my games". You know, indirectly... by being more popular.
Pretty much this. Another form of epleen ... my game is no longer as popular as this new kind ... it must be bad, and I need to file complaint somewhere ....
Hey, I wonder if anyone ever considered that maybe games like MOBA are actually clearing the refuse out of our games, making them better? It's not completely outside the realm of possibility. I mean without MOBA we have all these "toxic" kids over in our MMORPGs, being all abrasive in their attempts to be edgy.
Personally, I think what we see is roughly a 4-era history in online games, where each new era was vastly bigger than its predecessor, and became the primary focus for online gamers. Also, each era support different companies, and so far no company has managed to repeat their success.
It started with ID software and Doom, Quake, Unreal. Basically, action shooters. That genre was the top dog in early online gaming, money-wise and player-wise.
Then came the rise of the MMORPG, of which Blizzard and World of WarCraft became the top dog in business. Persistent game worlds, addictive gameplay and repeatable content within a non-repeatable game progression.
Then came the rise of the console online gaming and the success of the tactical shooter and military games. Even in its heyday, Call of Duty sales ecliped WoW sales easily, not to mentioned the also wildly successful Battlefield series.
Now, today, we have seen the first era fade to all but nothing, the second era seems to be starting in on its sunset, and the third era has probably just surpassed its peak. The MOBA and , by extension, lobby game (think World of tanks, Mechwarrior, Star Conflict etc.) is the new era. Already, the market leader has eclipsed WoWs player numbers by a factor of almost 10 within 4 years, and the top 3 online games are LoL, WoT and Dota2.
As such, I believe that the MOBA genre is simply the new era, and the MMORPG will recede to the niche status of the action shooter, and possibly soon the tactical shooter will follow: Genres that work, that can be successful, but genres that had their biggest moment in the past.
I am very curious if Star Citizen will be able to revive a genre long thought dead, and disprove my thoughts as too small in focus. So far, no genre that was laid to rest has been revived to former glory.
Rubbish.
WOW made 1.04 billion dollars in 2013.
LOL hardly scratched 620 million dollars in 2013.
In economics that means that WOW is still 60% ahead of LOL as an industry.
Those 67 million 'players" simply don't exist in LOL as it would appear the LOL gamers are not even investing 1 dollar PER month in the game.
Accounts created perhaps, but active players ? No way José.
Reasons are Obvious: NO women, ONLY PvP ers and LOTS of yelling by the Chinese owners.
But as stated even FREE to play iOS games done by SuperCell brought in 950 million dollars on a yearly basis,
COD , WOW and LOTS of other games (whether they are ftp or ptp) are still much bigger in what counts : $$$ signs.
It is time to question Chinese PR...
So with WOD launching the total revenue of WOW will be approx. 1.2 BILLION dollars for 2014.
Wake me up when LOL will reach half that number please.
I never understood people could be SOOOO naieve when "player" numbers are concerned. because it is SO SIMPLE to look up revenue for games and see what they REALLY pull these days. BTW World of Tanks did not even reach 300 million, so both games COMBINED still fall short to WOW grossings, while COD easely breaks the 1.5 billion dollars per year...
2) Level and gear up your character by killing monsters and players.
3) Become stronger than other players.
4) Finish the game by beating the enemy base.
5) Rinse and repeat.
Typical for MOBA but not so typical for MMORPGs:
1) Forced Grouping.
2) Forced PvP.
3) No SOLO modes.
4) Characters life span is 30-90 minutes then you must restart.
I can understand why this instant gratification generation plays MOBAs instead of MMORPGs that take months for "same" experience.
Apart from the fact these games are still INFERIOR in the money making department as I explained above, your post also shows they are vey thin on long term playing value.
In my view MOBA's have hardly a life expectancy of over a year after which the majority of players will no longer play them, hence the non existent "67 million players", since the revenue is simply not there for those PR numbers.
If some ipad/iphone games make MORE money than LOL, you already know these guys are simply lying about their active player base.
Of course they are popular, but they are in no way replacing traditional gaming of shooters, MMORPG's etc.
They thrive on e-sports, that's true but that's hardly "the" market for many players. Women for example are simply not found in these games, unless to announce the "sports" in mini skirts.
In 6 months time, Hearthstone already "assembled" 20 million "players" too, but that doesn't mean a thing in PR talk either. it is the total revenue value of a game that matters in the industry, not the usual PR talk of 100 million accounts created.
And btw ... HS is played by that other 50% of our species, so it wouldn't even surprise me if it would catch up that "player number" of LOL faster than you would think.
It is ALL just e-sports and e-sports is just too niche to please all. When watching these DOTA games on Twitch, I am bored within 5 minutes.
I don't play MOBAs, they just don't appeal to me, so I ask this as a question rather than making it as a statement.
This isn't a thread about success through numbers and sales, it is a thread about the success of the genre to be everything it once promised.
Many people blame WoW for "ruining the genre", but I wonder if we are looking in the wrong place and that WoW itself was a victim... A victim of MOBA design philosophies, monetisation, and community.
MMORPG devs clearly play MOBAs more than each others games, so how much of what they experienced and heard in the echo chamber of the MOBA community influenced them?
Should be be blaming these games, in a large part, for where we are right now this genre?
So, thoughts about the toxic reach of the MOBA into the DNA of the MMORPG. Go for it.
I think it's a culmination of both your points. First WoW ruined MMO's for over 10 years which resulted in many studios worried about chasing the WoW money thinking if they could make a better WoW it would result in more money for them. Sadly it took entirely too long for studios to see this was incorrect and a losing proposition. We're right now in the tail end of the WoW clone era.....or at least I think we are.
Ahh, but this is a core question... WoW may have 'ruined' MMORPGs, but what 'ruined' WoW?
The Playerbase.
Look at MMO numbers pre WoW, most were happy with 200-300k players. Some got as high as 500k. Then along come Blizz with their huge Warcraft following and they suddenly rack up numbers in the millions.
Most of those players were not MMO players previously and the experience they got from WoW wasn't what I would call a true MMO experience. Soloing to level cap in a few months, raids limited to 40 people, 5 man groups, easy mode MMO. The game attracted huge numbers because the game was a lot easier than previous MMO's. This is where the downward spiral starts.
These "new" MMO players liked this easy mode and wanted more of it. Screw world PvP, let's have BG's, then Arenas. Instant PvP enabled. Dungeon Finder added, instant PvE enabled. Raid Finder added, instant raids enabled.
Community went down the shitter because nobody needed one. Solo to cap then sit in a queue = Epics!
All of these changes were driven by the players, the "new" MMO players, the ones that never played MMO's before WoW. Devs supply what the players want if that's what keeps them coming back. I'm not so sure that the Devs made these changes because of MOBA games as much as it was due to demand from the playerbase. A playerbase, the majority of whom, had never played any other MMO before and most likely had played RTS games, MOBA's etc: games with a much shorter play session.
So did MOBA's ruin MMORPG's? Maybe indirectly they did, but I think the changes we've seen have been due to player demand, by players used to the convenience experienced in MOBA's. You see comments now in Betas where players say they won't play an MMO without a dungeon finder, or they want mounts earlier or some other form of quick travel. Anything to speed things up and gets them into the action.
In a few years time I think the majority of those "new" MMO players will probably give up on MMO's, or they'll evolve into even easier games that won't even deserve the name MMO. Let's face it, most of them don't deserve the name now.
Maybe at that point we'll see a proper MMO come out again. It will be niche, it will be sub based and it will not be an easy game to master but it will attract a loyal following. Kind of like EVE has now.
I don't play MOBAs, they just don't appeal to me, so I ask this as a question rather than making it as a statement.
This isn't a thread about success through numbers and sales, it is a thread about the success of the genre to be everything it once promised.
Many people blame WoW for "ruining the genre", but I wonder if we are looking in the wrong place and that WoW itself was a victim... A victim of MOBA design philosophies, monetisation, and community.
MMORPG devs clearly play MOBAs more than each others games, so how much of what they experienced and heard in the echo chamber of the MOBA community influenced them?
Should be be blaming these games, in a large part, for where we are right now this genre?
So, thoughts about the toxic reach of the MOBA into the DNA of the MMORPG. Go for it.
I think it's a culmination of both your points. First WoW ruined MMO's for over 10 years which resulted in many studios worried about chasing the WoW money thinking if they could make a better WoW it would result in more money for them. Sadly it took entirely too long for studios to see this was incorrect and a losing proposition. We're right now in the tail end of the WoW clone era.....or at least I think we are.
Ahh, but this is a core question... WoW may have 'ruined' MMORPGs, but what 'ruined' WoW?
Well for me the dumbing down of the game and the never-ending nerfs/buffs cycle. But I don't think this is what you meant. IMO nothing ruined WoW, WoW was great what ruined WoW in your sense of the question is the endless stream of pretenders trying to emulate its success. What we need is innovation. Now-a-days 90% of every Themepark is a WoW clone. Unlike back in 1999 in the infancy of the genre when we had 3 solid MMO's that were polar opposites of each other. Ultima Online, Everquest and Asheron's Call we're so different from one another that there was no notion of semblance. Then you had a few years of continued innovation and invention with the 2nd gen MMO's like DAoC and City of heroes.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
I don't play MOBAs, they just don't appeal to me, so I ask this as a question rather than making it as a statement.
This isn't a thread about success through numbers and sales, it is a thread about the success of the genre to be everything it once promised.
Many people blame WoW for "ruining the genre", but I wonder if we are looking in the wrong place and that WoW itself was a victim... A victim of MOBA design philosophies, monetisation, and community.
MMORPG devs clearly play MOBAs more than each others games, so how much of what they experienced and heard in the echo chamber of the MOBA community influenced them?
Should be be blaming these games, in a large part, for where we are right now this genre?
So, thoughts about the toxic reach of the MOBA into the DNA of the MMORPG. Go for it.
I think it's a culmination of both your points. First WoW ruined MMO's for over 10 years which resulted in many studios worried about chasing the WoW money thinking if they could make a better WoW it would result in more money for them. Sadly it took entirely too long for studios to see this was incorrect and a losing proposition. We're right now in the tail end of the WoW clone era.....or at least I think we are.
Ahh, but this is a core question... WoW may have 'ruined' MMORPGs, but what 'ruined' WoW?
The Playerbase.
Look at MMO numbers pre WoW, most were happy with 200-300k players. Some got as high as 500k. Then along come Blizz with their huge Warcraft following and they suddenly rack up numbers in the millions.
Most of those players were not MMO players previously and the experience they got from WoW wasn't what I would call a true MMO experience. Soloing to level cap in a few months, raids limited to 40 people, 5 man groups, easy mode MMO. The game attracted huge numbers because the game was a lot easier than previous MMO's. This is where the downward spiral starts.
These "new" MMO players liked this easy mode and wanted more of it. Screw world PvP, let's have BG's, then Arenas. Instant PvP enabled. Dungeon Finder added, instant PvE enabled. Raid Finder added, instant raids enabled.
Community went down the shitter because nobody needed one. Solo to cap then sit in a queue = Epics!
All of these changes were driven by the players, the "new" MMO players, the ones that never played MMO's before WoW. Devs supply what the players want if that's what keeps them coming back. I'm not so sure that the Devs made these changes because of MOBA games as much as it was due to demand from the playerbase. A playerbase, the majority of whom, had never played any other MMO before and most likely had played RTS games, MOBA's etc: games with a much shorter play session.
So did MOBA's ruin MMORPG's? Maybe indirectly they did, but I think the changes we've seen have been due to player demand, by players used to the convenience experienced in MOBA's. You see comments now in Betas where players say they won't play an MMO without a dungeon finder, or they want mounts earlier or some other form of quick travel. Anything to speed things up and gets them into the action.
In a few years time I think the majority of those "new" MMO players will probably give up on MMO's, or they'll evolve into even easier games that won't even deserve the name MMO. Let's face it, most of them don't deserve the name now.
Maybe at that point we'll see a proper MMO come out again. It will be niche, it will be sub based and it will not be an easy game to master but it will attract a loyal following. Kind of like EVE has now.
I've been playing MMO's since 1999 with Asheron's Call and many of those things you think ruined MMO's like Dungeon Finders, soloability and Non-consensual PvP are exactly why I think WoW was awesome. I played Asheron's Call for precisely those reasons you mentioned which were part of the core game of AC (minus the dungeon finder but we didn't have instances so this point is moot). WoW was popular precisely because of those reasons. I find it unfathomable to me that someone, anyone can't see that and blame the community for the downward spiral. Talk about not seeing the forest for the trees. No sir, WoW community or the newer playerbase didn't ruin MMO's. The never ending saga of WoW clones did. MOBA's are the ultimate conclusion of a lack of variety in the MMO genre.
It sounds like you want an MMO like EQ, which is fine. You give me my Asheron's Call (complete with it's solability and casual friendliness) and I give you your EQ and then we have another MMO come along that is different from both of those and you know what we'll get? A freaking amazing genre. Variety is the spice of life....which is precisely why, not to sound condescending, why I am right and you're wrong. You're looking at the big picture through your own likability and that is not how you look at things. Look through it with a large lens and take into consideration other players wants, needs and desires and you'll come to the conclusion that what I have stated is to be correct. Because my outlook takes into account everyone's desires.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
I don't play MOBAs, they just don't appeal to me, so I ask this as a question rather than making it as a statement.
This isn't a thread about success through numbers and sales, it is a thread about the success of the genre to be everything it once promised.
Many people blame WoW for "ruining the genre", but I wonder if we are looking in the wrong place and that WoW itself was a victim... A victim of MOBA design philosophies, monetisation, and community.
MMORPG devs clearly play MOBAs more than each others games, so how much of what they experienced and heard in the echo chamber of the MOBA community influenced them?
Should be be blaming these games, in a large part, for where we are right now this genre?
So, thoughts about the toxic reach of the MOBA into the DNA of the MMORPG. Go for it.
I dont think it has a lick to do with it.
Yes, DOTA was around as a mod for warcraft 3 for a long time, but the "moba" didnt really explode in popularity until LoL copied the dota formula and released in 2009.
2009 was WAY WAY WAY after the dmg to the genre had been done.
IMO mobas had little to nothing to do with the current state of the genre
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Ahh, but this is a core question... WoW may have 'ruined' MMORPGs, but what 'ruined' WoW?
Well for me the dumbing down of the game and the never-ending nerfs/buffs cycle. But I don't think this is what you meant. IMO nothing ruined WoW, WoW was great what ruined WoW in your sense of the question is the endless stream of pretenders trying to emulate its success. What we need is innovation. Now-a-days 90% of every Themepark is a WoW clone. Unlike back in 1999 in the infancy of the genre when we had 3 solid MMO's that were polar opposites of each other. Ultima Online, Everquest and Asheron's Call we're so different from one another that there was no notion of semblance. Then you had a few years of continued innovation and invention with the 2nd gen MMO's like DAoC and City of heroes.
Didn't both DAoC and City of Heroes shut down? No wonder why no one innovates anymore.
(Or is DAoC still going? I'm starting to lose track here)
Comments
Myself and about 80% of my MMORPG guild have recently made the transition away from MMORPGs to League of Legends and Smite. I also know of many people that have both WoW and LoL on their gaming resumee, and as such believe this to be a sizeable number of people who did, indeed, wander from one genre to the next.
MOBAs are not nearly as time-consuming as MMORPGs for an average gamer, which is a big part ,but the bigger part at least for my community of roughly 25 people was the fact that modern MMORPGs do not really provide much of a unique gameplay experience and challenge anymore.
The skillcap is so low, and the skill floor needed to achieve anything is basically nonexistent, that all but the most lazy of us started to enjoy the challenge of the occasional ranked LoL match, and slowly grew to appreciate it.
Personally, I think what we see is roughly a 4-era history in online games, where each new era was vastly bigger than its predecessor, and became the primary focus for online gamers. Also, each era support different companies, and so far no company has managed to repeat their success.
It started with ID software and Doom, Quake, Unreal. Basically, action shooters. That genre was the top dog in early online gaming, money-wise and player-wise.
Then came the rise of the MMORPG, of which Blizzard and World of WarCraft became the top dog in business. Persistent game worlds, addictive gameplay and repeatable content within a non-repeatable game progression.
Then came the rise of the console online gaming and the success of the tactical shooter and military games. Even in its heyday, Call of Duty sales ecliped WoW sales easily, not to mentioned the also wildly successful Battlefield series.
Now, today, we have seen the first era fade to all but nothing, the second era seems to be starting in on its sunset, and the third era has probably just surpassed its peak. The MOBA and , by extension, lobby game (think World of tanks, Mechwarrior, Star Conflict etc.) is the new era. Already, the market leader has eclipsed WoWs player numbers by a factor of almost 10 within 4 years, and the top 3 online games are LoL, WoT and Dota2.
As such, I believe that the MOBA genre is simply the new era, and the MMORPG will recede to the niche status of the action shooter, and possibly soon the tactical shooter will follow: Genres that work, that can be successful, but genres that had their biggest moment in the past.
I am very curious if Star Citizen will be able to revive a genre long thought dead, and disprove my thoughts as too small in focus. So far, no genre that was laid to rest has been revived to former glory.
Blizzard has always looked towards popular niche games for ideas. that is common knowledge today.
TBC wanted to copy GW1's PvP arena which was the hype back then.
WoTLK, wanted to copy Warhammer which was the hype back then
CAT wanted to copy Rift, which was the hype back then
MoP well was meant to appeal to the Asian again. Plus the GW2 hype
WoD is to finish off the GW2 hype
Blizzard has always copied other games for WoW. just check out Vanilla WoW's beta. The Beta Paladin and EQ Cleric were copy paste.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Yes, I do not challenge the fact that Blizz copy, that's a given.
What I am challenging is your rock hard assertion of WHAT they were playing and what they were influenced by during 2004-2007 in regards to the arena E-sport design philosophy.
You say GW, I say most likely DotA.
To be fair, GW itself might itself been heavily influenced by the emergence of DotA in it's arena PvP focus? DotA appeared in, what, 2003? GW didn't come along 'till 2005?
Ok, first off, if you're going to throw out blatant references like "of course WoW devs were playing them" then at least have some sort of reference for that.
Secondly, even if they are playing them (and the odds of some devs playing are pretty good), it's a huge stretch to suggest that they are/were getting inspiration from them.
There are a couple reasons that MMORPGs have been trending in the direction they have. First is due to their own popularity. There are literally double the number of games available to the consumer, and that number isn't getting lower. Games longevity is also getting longer and longer, meaning players are staying in games longer. Also, players are playing more games than they used to. They might have 2 or 3 or 5 games on the go at once, whereas back "in the day" you basically played one game only (hence the negative stigma attached to early adopters of games like EQ and WoW that they were anti-social hermits).
Also, there is a focus on end-game content now. It's unfortunate that so many "skip" the story nowadays, but it does happen. So serving up a lengthy levelling process simply hurts your game, even if it's "right" to execute it like that.
In the end, the MMORPG market is larger than it ever has been, but it is still a niche market in and of itself. These games can't/won't appeal to MOBA players who aren't interested in MMORPGs already. Blizzard actually went and created their own MOBA to tackle this market, and they should, simply because it's so large a market. However, I don't think that the markets are as closely related as you think.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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Just because one appeared before the other doesn't necessarily mean the latter was influenced by the former. Its a logical fallacy: Post hoc ergo propter hoc
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I think it's a culmination of both your points. First WoW ruined MMO's for over 10 years which resulted in many studios worried about chasing the WoW money thinking if they could make a better WoW it would result in more money for them. Sadly it took entirely too long for studios to see this was incorrect and a losing proposition. We're right now in the tail end of the WoW clone era.....or at least I think we are.
Secondly I feel that MOBA's took too many jaded MMO gamers from the genre, couple this with poorly and rushed out WoW clones it resulted in the shape we see today. I know of no MOBA player who is or more succinctly was an MMO player. I know there are some but if I was to put a percentage on the MOBA player who also played or plays MMO's I would say it is much greater then 50%.
I do not however think that MOBA's are taking players away because of the gameplay but because of the lack of full-fledged MMO's.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
MOBAs are actually MMORPGs in a miniature size.
1) Choose a class (Usually 100+ to select from).
2) Level and gear up your character by killing monsters and players.
3) Become stronger than other players.
4) Finish the game by beating the enemy base.
5) Rinse and repeat.
Typical for MOBA but not so typical for MMORPGs:
1) Forced Grouping.
2) Forced PvP.
3) No SOLO modes.
4) Characters life span is 30-90 minutes then you must restart.
I can understand why this instant gratification generation plays MOBAs instead of MMORPGs that take months for "same" experience.
Actually, it's just a question. See the question marks and stuff?
It's something we do to stimulate conversation.
You want to invite people to make wrong assumptions?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
No, I clearly asked a question and invited thoughts for discussion.
You are being a pedant now and attempting to derail this thread with some kind of cleverness contest. I won't respond to you any more here, but feel free to PM me if you have more to say on this.
Ahh, but this is a core question... WoW may have 'ruined' MMORPGs, but what 'ruined' WoW?
I really need more information to discuss this. What aspects of MOBA game play influenced or are influencing MMORPGs? How is this related to WoW and WoW's mechanics? In a more general sense, how is the MMORPG genre ruined?
The reason I'm asking these questions is because "quality" in video games is almost entirely subjective. Once the bugs are squashed and the lag is mostly gone, it comes down to what people like. The MMORPG genre doesn't seem to be ruined for the millions of people playing, so if MOBAs are influencing the mechanics in MMORPGs, for all the people currently happy with it, it's improving the genre, not ruining it.
Even assuming the genre is being ruined, that still leaves the connection between MOBA mechanics and MMORPG mechanics in general a little fuzzy. There just aren't that many MOBA mechanics. MOBAs are also nearly 100% PvP oriented and about as skill based as it is possible to get in a video game. This doesn't seem at all like MMORPGs where Time Invested is what mostly generates results.
So I really need more clarification here. That does not mean anyone is obligated to actually explain these things to me. Perhaps it's just obvious and I'm missing it. I'm totally OK with that.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I just assume it is because "they are ruining my games". You know, indirectly... by being more popular.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Pretty much this. Another form of epleen ... my game is no longer as popular as this new kind ... it must be bad, and I need to file complaint somewhere ....
Hey, I wonder if anyone ever considered that maybe games like MOBA are actually clearing the refuse out of our games, making them better? It's not completely outside the realm of possibility. I mean without MOBA we have all these "toxic" kids over in our MMORPGs, being all abrasive in their attempts to be edgy.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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Rubbish.
WOW made 1.04 billion dollars in 2013.
LOL hardly scratched 620 million dollars in 2013.
In economics that means that WOW is still 60% ahead of LOL as an industry.
Those 67 million 'players" simply don't exist in LOL as it would appear the LOL gamers are not even investing 1 dollar PER month in the game.
Accounts created perhaps, but active players ? No way José.
Reasons are Obvious: NO women, ONLY PvP ers and LOTS of yelling by the Chinese owners.
But as stated even FREE to play iOS games done by SuperCell brought in 950 million dollars on a yearly basis,
COD , WOW and LOTS of other games (whether they are ftp or ptp) are still much bigger in what counts : $$$ signs.
It is time to question Chinese PR...
So with WOD launching the total revenue of WOW will be approx. 1.2 BILLION dollars for 2014.
Wake me up when LOL will reach half that number please.
I never understood people could be SOOOO naieve when "player" numbers are concerned. because it is SO SIMPLE to look up revenue for games and see what they REALLY pull these days. BTW World of Tanks did not even reach 300 million, so both games COMBINED still fall short to WOW grossings, while COD easely breaks the 1.5 billion dollars per year...
Did the rise of MMORPGs ruin the FPS?
Its the same answer.
Apart from the fact these games are still INFERIOR in the money making department as I explained above, your post also shows they are vey thin on long term playing value.
In my view MOBA's have hardly a life expectancy of over a year after which the majority of players will no longer play them, hence the non existent "67 million players", since the revenue is simply not there for those PR numbers.
If some ipad/iphone games make MORE money than LOL, you already know these guys are simply lying about their active player base.
Of course they are popular, but they are in no way replacing traditional gaming of shooters, MMORPG's etc.
They thrive on e-sports, that's true but that's hardly "the" market for many players. Women for example are simply not found in these games, unless to announce the "sports" in mini skirts.
In 6 months time, Hearthstone already "assembled" 20 million "players" too, but that doesn't mean a thing in PR talk either. it is the total revenue value of a game that matters in the industry, not the usual PR talk of 100 million accounts created.
And btw ... HS is played by that other 50% of our species, so it wouldn't even surprise me if it would catch up that "player number" of LOL faster than you would think.
It is ALL just e-sports and e-sports is just too niche to please all. When watching these DOTA games on Twitch, I am bored within 5 minutes.
The Playerbase.
Look at MMO numbers pre WoW, most were happy with 200-300k players. Some got as high as 500k. Then along come Blizz with their huge Warcraft following and they suddenly rack up numbers in the millions.
Most of those players were not MMO players previously and the experience they got from WoW wasn't what I would call a true MMO experience. Soloing to level cap in a few months, raids limited to 40 people, 5 man groups, easy mode MMO. The game attracted huge numbers because the game was a lot easier than previous MMO's. This is where the downward spiral starts.
These "new" MMO players liked this easy mode and wanted more of it. Screw world PvP, let's have BG's, then Arenas. Instant PvP enabled. Dungeon Finder added, instant PvE enabled. Raid Finder added, instant raids enabled.
Community went down the shitter because nobody needed one. Solo to cap then sit in a queue = Epics!
All of these changes were driven by the players, the "new" MMO players, the ones that never played MMO's before WoW. Devs supply what the players want if that's what keeps them coming back. I'm not so sure that the Devs made these changes because of MOBA games as much as it was due to demand from the playerbase. A playerbase, the majority of whom, had never played any other MMO before and most likely had played RTS games, MOBA's etc: games with a much shorter play session.
So did MOBA's ruin MMORPG's? Maybe indirectly they did, but I think the changes we've seen have been due to player demand, by players used to the convenience experienced in MOBA's. You see comments now in Betas where players say they won't play an MMO without a dungeon finder, or they want mounts earlier or some other form of quick travel. Anything to speed things up and gets them into the action.
In a few years time I think the majority of those "new" MMO players will probably give up on MMO's, or they'll evolve into even easier games that won't even deserve the name MMO. Let's face it, most of them don't deserve the name now.
Maybe at that point we'll see a proper MMO come out again. It will be niche, it will be sub based and it will not be an easy game to master but it will attract a loyal following. Kind of like EVE has now.
Kids have to have something to play?
Just a suggestion.
Well for me the dumbing down of the game and the never-ending nerfs/buffs cycle. But I don't think this is what you meant. IMO nothing ruined WoW, WoW was great what ruined WoW in your sense of the question is the endless stream of pretenders trying to emulate its success. What we need is innovation. Now-a-days 90% of every Themepark is a WoW clone. Unlike back in 1999 in the infancy of the genre when we had 3 solid MMO's that were polar opposites of each other. Ultima Online, Everquest and Asheron's Call we're so different from one another that there was no notion of semblance. Then you had a few years of continued innovation and invention with the 2nd gen MMO's like DAoC and City of heroes.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
I've been playing MMO's since 1999 with Asheron's Call and many of those things you think ruined MMO's like Dungeon Finders, soloability and Non-consensual PvP are exactly why I think WoW was awesome. I played Asheron's Call for precisely those reasons you mentioned which were part of the core game of AC (minus the dungeon finder but we didn't have instances so this point is moot). WoW was popular precisely because of those reasons. I find it unfathomable to me that someone, anyone can't see that and blame the community for the downward spiral. Talk about not seeing the forest for the trees. No sir, WoW community or the newer playerbase didn't ruin MMO's. The never ending saga of WoW clones did. MOBA's are the ultimate conclusion of a lack of variety in the MMO genre.
It sounds like you want an MMO like EQ, which is fine. You give me my Asheron's Call (complete with it's solability and casual friendliness) and I give you your EQ and then we have another MMO come along that is different from both of those and you know what we'll get? A freaking amazing genre. Variety is the spice of life....which is precisely why, not to sound condescending, why I am right and you're wrong. You're looking at the big picture through your own likability and that is not how you look at things. Look through it with a large lens and take into consideration other players wants, needs and desires and you'll come to the conclusion that what I have stated is to be correct. Because my outlook takes into account everyone's desires.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
I dont think it has a lick to do with it.
Yes, DOTA was around as a mod for warcraft 3 for a long time, but the "moba" didnt really explode in popularity until LoL copied the dota formula and released in 2009.
2009 was WAY WAY WAY after the dmg to the genre had been done.
IMO mobas had little to nothing to do with the current state of the genre
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
Didn't both DAoC and City of Heroes shut down? No wonder why no one innovates anymore.
(Or is DAoC still going? I'm starting to lose track here)