Originally posted by Bladestrom Horizontal does not destroy the viability of its own content through an ever increasing player power level. Drastically reduced balancing issues affecting pve and pvp. less anti-social issues - lack of power and skill does not make you an inferior person to be ridiculed for e.g.
In horizontal its acceptable to use flavour builds with drastically wider utility skill sets, in vertical it's meta build or 'fail'
And the great thing about that is we can run that same content day after day for five years. That is so much better than getting fresh content.
Yep, pretty much been doing that in EVE for the past 7 years, and it really is better than the "fresh" content most theme parks provide.
Sure, EVE gets improvements and some content updates, but truth is, this evening I'll be likely doing activities that have going on for years in EVE, and will likely continue to do so for years to come.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It doesn't make sense because the logic is not internally consistent. Even the explanation doesn't work. Because you can't fairly demonstrate a curve in which the majority of players sit somewhere in the middle. And, and there is a minority at either end. It's a black and white fallacy. And the problem with the concept of "Horizontal Progression" is that it is looking at one side of the coin. Not saying aspects of it don't exist. I am saying jumping on a single facet for an explanation of the whole is what leaves it wanting as a valid thing. By what we call it alone it implies mutual exclusivity with standard linear progression and is treated as such in argument. Which is not always (actually rarely is the case).
I have found (demonstrability, as given in my first post about it). That it is more of an attitude of games development that leads to certain design choices. But, the empirically based nature of horizontal progression on looks at the end result. Not it's root cause or it's relation to other factors.
If the days of vertical progression in MMOs are over, I'll abandon the genre and stick in single player RPGs - JRPGs because it seems only single player RPGs will continue featuring the time investiment - grind factor in order to get more powerful.
i thought original Guild Wars did a great job at horizontal progression
- all gear had the same max stats available to everyone
- level cap of 20, if you wanted to go straight to pvp, could be instant 20
- vast majority of the game content and expansion chapters were designed for level 20
- everyone was dual classed, but you could stick with only a primary class if wanted
- progression was measured by skill collecting, player titles, vanity armors and misc cosmetics
- plenty of skill combo theorycrafting, you could only actively have 8 skills out of a collection of over 1000 skills
Which is why I loathed GW1, there was no "progression" to speak of, titles, vanity armors, etc are of no interest to me, I play games for power or ability progression and once that comes to a halt (or degenerates into a gear grind) I quickly exit the game.
Gaining more abilities might have been good, but the limitation to only 8 per build is not something I like, I enjoy having a bar full of abilities I get to chose from. (not a fan of skill combo theorycrafting)
I guess that is EVE's appeal to me, the progression never stops, and it really isn't endlessly vertical, and in fact is perhaps the best example of horizontal progression I've found that remains interesting to me.
While totally new players of course are at a strong disadvantage, in a certain period of time this shrinks to be almost meaningless within set ship classes or activities since you can reach the same cap in them that everyone else has.
Originally posted by Iselin
"Horizontal progression" is a misnomer used typically to define alternate forms of limited vertical progression.
A true horizontal progression would mean that the same bunny that can kill you in the tutorial in your first minutes of game play, has just as much of chance to kill you after you play the game for a year... fun, eh?
I think for this to work, you'd have to find a way to make every ability in a game something that it it takes actual player skill to accomplish. Meaning in addition to things such as dodging, rolling or blocking, you need to find a way to make it so combat or healing spells took some sort of actual effort that players could practice and get good at over time.
Then when you faced a bunny when first starting out, your actual skill at swinging a small sword or shooting a bow might be so poor you might continually miss it and be unable to kill it, while after much practice you would kill in one blow.
Think back to the times of early airplane flying or fighter simulations, it was a real effort to try and land them, and I have to confess I never really mastered it, I usually set it to auto land to save from crashing all the time.
So same here, you might run into a Wyrven as a noob, and get killed relentlessly. Heck, even after you became a master at weapons you might still only be able to kill it if you and a dozen friends got together and the combined skill of all of you eventually took it down.
Thing is, while archery can be made difficult by adding real world physics to flight and aiming, how does one make magic casting a challenge. Of course you can add aiming just like archery, and not auto homing but what else could be added to give the player something enough to practice mastering that it took a decent amount of time to learn it?
I suppose you could do away with magic completely and restrict combat to strictly melee and archery, or restrict magic to things such as buffing or healing perhaps.
One idea I just had, you know the mechanic they use in ESO to open locked chests and how you learn to improve how to do it over time? Perhaps something like that could be added for magic spell, you have to complete the proper sequence in the right order (like Vanguard crafting maybe) to successfully cast the spell. Just a thought.
So much yes. Not just to your post but to those who have posted here with a good understanding oh horizontal progression and why it's great. Few games do it properly I think, especially MMO's.
I think your thought on magic being similar to ESO's lockpicking is a thought more and more people are having ( I hope). Better skills are harder to perform, and the way we perform them is sort of like it's own mini-game.
Man, I wish MMO's were moving in this direction (maybe they are?).
Thing is, vertical progression is literally the same thing over and over and over. Stats just increase. Monsters get harder, you get equally stronger. BORING. I would much prefer mobs to get DIFFERENT and HARDER because of their combat mechanics and AI and not because of their stats.
Some vertical progression games do give mobs better mechanics, especially Boss fights. But you have to grind through so much crap to get to these cool encounters. I was happy that GW2 started off with a rather interesting fight for the tutorial, was a nice change from the usual mmo crap.
Vertical progression is a real thing - and it does work. Just ask ncsoft - who cut staff from WIldstar but is still hiring for GW2. And yes GW2 is horizontal. There is a LITTLE bit of vertical progression once you hit 80 but its trivial to get an entire set of exotics and that's very close to ascended. Unlike games with a true vertical progression there is no need to advance onward to handle new content.
Horizontal progression is interesting because it strips content to its barest level - people are only playing because they WANT to play - not because of the carrot/horse tricks that other games use to motivate its players. Some players can't play MMOs without the skinner box reward system.. But it turns out this group is not particularly huge as Wildstar found out..
I am not sure a strong vertical progression game is every coming back. Even WoW will "knock down' the ladder several times during each expansion so that other people can do the content without being gear gated. Which approach is really better a 'mini' vertical progression every couple of months that you need to play - or a permanently flat playing field..
One very interesting thing about the horizontal progression is it achieves what games like WoW never could in terms of player character customization. You can really use a 'sub-optimal' build in GW2 because there is no pressing need for optimization.. Since you are going anywhere - it seems to matter less how you get there..
Horizontal progression games are for people that like MMOs and like RPGs and genuinely just like playing the game. Vertical progression games at their best are 'skill/dedication' meritocracy's for the players - and while they can be very enjoyable they cut out your players from large portions of content.. So the industry seems to be rapidly moving away from them..
It amazes me how many people on this site get hung up on vocabulary. When speaking of a line chart, I use the term horizontal or vertical when describing progression over time. If the line never breaches 45 degrees, I consider the game a more horizontal progression based game. Most of you act as if 1 degree to 90 degrees equates to vertical progression where as only a 0 degree line equates to horizontal progression, this fallacy based on vocabulary. Every progression line will both progress horizontally and vertically when charting power gained by level. When comparing multiple MMOrpgs you can then begin to see how they stack up as far as vertical and horizontal progression.
Vertical progression is mostly an illusion that people easily buy into. Most games attempt to balance your power to mob power at a specific ratio as you level. So as you gain in power, the mobs that you fight will gain in power, keeping you in an endless loop of fighting re-skinned mobs. You do have the choice to kill weaker mobs but most MMO's offer less reward when you out level the mob, pushing you into fighting mobs of your level range, keeping the playing field level. Once at level cap you again fight mobs of your equivalent power and gear becomes the new scaling factor.
I would argue that if you create an interesting world with places to explore, things to build, and interesting combat, people will not worry about leveling or gear as much as they do now.
Originally posted by Iselin "Horizontal progression" is a misnomer used typically to define alternate forms of limited vertical progression.A true horizontal progression would mean that the same bunny that can kill you in the tutorial in your first minutes of game play, has just as much of chance to kill you after you play the game for a year... fun, eh?
Very true.+1
I'm no expert, but this what comes to my mind when I read "Horizontal Progression", also.
"Vertical", to me, indicates progression from mail room to stockboy to customer service to manager to VP with subsequent financial gains.
"Horizontal" has me thinking of changing jobs and making the same amount of cash at every change.
Personally, I play games to improve my characters. There is no other point in the game for me.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Vertical progression is a real thing - and it does work. Just ask ncsoft - who cut staff from WIldstar but is still hiring for GW2. And yes GW2 is horizontal. There is a LITTLE bit of vertical progression once you hit 80 but its trivial to get an entire set of exotics and that's very close to ascended. Unlike games with a true vertical progression there is no need to advance onward to handle new content.
WoW, FFXIV ARR, ESO (arguably), SWTOR (believe it or not), Rift, and Tera are all vertical progression based and today, generally successful (today)
Vertical progression is not why Wildstar is unsuccessful. Wildstar is not successful because it's a bad game.
Originally posted by Iselin "Horizontal progression" is a misnomer used typically to define alternate forms of limited vertical progression.
A true horizontal progression would mean that the same bunny that can kill you in the tutorial in your first minutes of game play, has just as much of chance to kill you after you play the game for a year... fun, eh?
Very true.
+1
I'm no expert, but this what comes to my mind when I read "Horizontal Progression", also.
"Vertical", to me, indicates progression from mail room to stockboy to customer service to manager to VP with subsequent financial gains.
"Horizontal" has me thinking of changing jobs and making the same amount of cash at every change.
Personally, I play games to improve my characters. There is no other point in the game for me.
Said much more succinctly than the hundreds of words I've previously posted in this thread.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by Iselin "Horizontal progression" is a misnomer used typically to define alternate forms of limited vertical progression.
A true horizontal progression would mean that the same bunny that can kill you in the tutorial in your first minutes of game play, has just as much of chance to kill you after you play the game for a year... fun, eh?
Very true.
+1
I'm no expert, but this what comes to my mind when I read "Horizontal Progression", also.
"Vertical", to me, indicates progression from mail room to stockboy to customer service to manager to VP with subsequent financial gains.
"Horizontal" has me thinking of changing jobs and making the same amount of cash at every change.
Personally, I play games to improve my characters. There is no other point in the game for me.
It's not always like this. FFXI had a great yet flawed horizontal progression system.
The gear you acquired made you way stronger but it took years to do so as well as lasted years once you acquired them. Low level and mid level items were a lot of the times your best items but were extremely rare.
It was a very unforgiving system though that required you to pretty much log in every day for any chance at loot of any kind since you competed for them against your entire server and not just your guild.
That sounds like a good model for either vertical or horizontal, I.e very slow power gain.
Re points going from stock boy to manager to VIP, well it doesn't stop there, then you go to hero-super hero- god-super god- super super shiny god + 42. The strange thing is with all the godliness you just get extra stats, not extra abilities -still you get to 1 shot people in your gear -x tiers.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
I didn't care for it in FFXI. They just kept piling more and more gear on you over time, requiring you to make countless more macros to sub in specific gear for specific abilities. Then they crushed everyone's hearts by finally raising the level cap after 7 years and invalidating 7 years of progress nearly overnight.
Call WoW a gear treadmill all you want, but at least people don't get too attached to their things and then feel completely useless after a long period of time has passed.
If you need another concrete example of why horizontal works, I can walk into a pve fight in eve, GW1, GW2 after a year and I will be competitve. I don't have the latest skins, and the game is fun. If I walk into a battleground with my year old gear in WOW, a player with entirely no skill can 1 shot me. This is most certainly not fun. This is one of Things that horizontal progression gives.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
My view on horizontal progression is that it is alternate or complementary method of playing. As typically combat prowess is what is regarded as the main progression, horizontal progression can be e.g. something that involves pvp, economy, aesthetics, politics, art... anything that doesn't directly increase your battle prowess, but can nonetheless be considered progression, if the character or the player is able to progress in it.
There is no simple answer, to how to best implement it as there are so many possibilities as to what it can contain. You could argue that ideally a game should thrive to be as inclusive as possible. However, it is certain that a vast number of possible ways to progress can be intimidating itself.
Call WoW a gear treadmill all you want, but at least people don't get too attached to their things and then feel completely useless after a long period of time has passed.
This is precisely why i quit playing wow. I got sick of having all of my efforts wiped away every time an expansion comes out just to appease a bunch of ultra casuals.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Comments
Yep, pretty much been doing that in EVE for the past 7 years, and it really is better than the "fresh" content most theme parks provide.
Sure, EVE gets improvements and some content updates, but truth is, this evening I'll be likely doing activities that have going on for years in EVE, and will likely continue to do so for years to come.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
@post #21 (not going to contribute to a pyramid)
It doesn't make sense because the logic is not internally consistent. Even the explanation doesn't work. Because you can't fairly demonstrate a curve in which the majority of players sit somewhere in the middle. And, and there is a minority at either end. It's a black and white fallacy. And the problem with the concept of "Horizontal Progression" is that it is looking at one side of the coin. Not saying aspects of it don't exist. I am saying jumping on a single facet for an explanation of the whole is what leaves it wanting as a valid thing. By what we call it alone it implies mutual exclusivity with standard linear progression and is treated as such in argument. Which is not always (actually rarely is the case).
I have found (demonstrability, as given in my first post about it). That it is more of an attitude of games development that leads to certain design choices. But, the empirically based nature of horizontal progression on looks at the end result. Not it's root cause or it's relation to other factors.
If the days of vertical progression in MMOs are over, I'll abandon the genre and stick in single player RPGs - JRPGs because it seems only single player RPGs will continue featuring the time investiment - grind factor in order to get more powerful.
2. What was the thread about again?
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
So much yes. Not just to your post but to those who have posted here with a good understanding oh horizontal progression and why it's great. Few games do it properly I think, especially MMO's.
I think your thought on magic being similar to ESO's lockpicking is a thought more and more people are having ( I hope). Better skills are harder to perform, and the way we perform them is sort of like it's own mini-game.
Man, I wish MMO's were moving in this direction (maybe they are?).
Thing is, vertical progression is literally the same thing over and over and over. Stats just increase. Monsters get harder, you get equally stronger. BORING. I would much prefer mobs to get DIFFERENT and HARDER because of their combat mechanics and AI and not because of their stats.
Some vertical progression games do give mobs better mechanics, especially Boss fights. But you have to grind through so much crap to get to these cool encounters. I was happy that GW2 started off with a rather interesting fight for the tutorial, was a nice change from the usual mmo crap.
Vertical progression is a real thing - and it does work. Just ask ncsoft - who cut staff from WIldstar but is still hiring for GW2. And yes GW2 is horizontal. There is a LITTLE bit of vertical progression once you hit 80 but its trivial to get an entire set of exotics and that's very close to ascended. Unlike games with a true vertical progression there is no need to advance onward to handle new content.
Horizontal progression is interesting because it strips content to its barest level - people are only playing because they WANT to play - not because of the carrot/horse tricks that other games use to motivate its players. Some players can't play MMOs without the skinner box reward system.. But it turns out this group is not particularly huge as Wildstar found out..
I am not sure a strong vertical progression game is every coming back. Even WoW will "knock down' the ladder several times during each expansion so that other people can do the content without being gear gated. Which approach is really better a 'mini' vertical progression every couple of months that you need to play - or a permanently flat playing field..
One very interesting thing about the horizontal progression is it achieves what games like WoW never could in terms of player character customization. You can really use a 'sub-optimal' build in GW2 because there is no pressing need for optimization.. Since you are going anywhere - it seems to matter less how you get there..
Horizontal progression games are for people that like MMOs and like RPGs and genuinely just like playing the game. Vertical progression games at their best are 'skill/dedication' meritocracy's for the players - and while they can be very enjoyable they cut out your players from large portions of content.. So the industry seems to be rapidly moving away from them..
It amazes me how many people on this site get hung up on vocabulary. When speaking of a line chart, I use the term horizontal or vertical when describing progression over time. If the line never breaches 45 degrees, I consider the game a more horizontal progression based game. Most of you act as if 1 degree to 90 degrees equates to vertical progression where as only a 0 degree line equates to horizontal progression, this fallacy based on vocabulary. Every progression line will both progress horizontally and vertically when charting power gained by level. When comparing multiple MMOrpgs you can then begin to see how they stack up as far as vertical and horizontal progression.
Vertical progression is mostly an illusion that people easily buy into. Most games attempt to balance your power to mob power at a specific ratio as you level. So as you gain in power, the mobs that you fight will gain in power, keeping you in an endless loop of fighting re-skinned mobs. You do have the choice to kill weaker mobs but most MMO's offer less reward when you out level the mob, pushing you into fighting mobs of your level range, keeping the playing field level. Once at level cap you again fight mobs of your equivalent power and gear becomes the new scaling factor.
I would argue that if you create an interesting world with places to explore, things to build, and interesting combat, people will not worry about leveling or gear as much as they do now.
Horizontal progression = Super Mario Bros with cash shop costumes.
It'll be the next big fad for a few years probably.
"Vertical", to me, indicates progression from mail room to stockboy to customer service to manager to VP with subsequent financial gains.
"Horizontal" has me thinking of changing jobs and making the same amount of cash at every change.
Personally, I play games to improve my characters. There is no other point in the game for me.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
WoW, FFXIV ARR, ESO (arguably), SWTOR (believe it or not), Rift, and Tera are all vertical progression based and today, generally successful (today)
Vertical progression is not why Wildstar is unsuccessful. Wildstar is not successful because it's a bad game.
Said much more succinctly than the hundreds of words I've previously posted in this thread.
+1
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It's not always like this. FFXI had a great yet flawed horizontal progression system.
The gear you acquired made you way stronger but it took years to do so as well as lasted years once you acquired them. Low level and mid level items were a lot of the times your best items but were extremely rare.
It was a very unforgiving system though that required you to pretty much log in every day for any chance at loot of any kind since you competed for them against your entire server and not just your guild.
Re points going from stock boy to manager to VIP, well it doesn't stop there, then you go to hero-super hero- god-super god- super super shiny god + 42. The strange thing is with all the godliness you just get extra stats, not extra abilities -still you get to 1 shot people in your gear -x tiers.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
I didn't care for it in FFXI. They just kept piling more and more gear on you over time, requiring you to make countless more macros to sub in specific gear for specific abilities. Then they crushed everyone's hearts by finally raising the level cap after 7 years and invalidating 7 years of progress nearly overnight.
Call WoW a gear treadmill all you want, but at least people don't get too attached to their things and then feel completely useless after a long period of time has passed.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Some really nice reads in the thread:)
My view on horizontal progression is that it is alternate or complementary method of playing. As typically combat prowess is what is regarded as the main progression, horizontal progression can be e.g. something that involves pvp, economy, aesthetics, politics, art... anything that doesn't directly increase your battle prowess, but can nonetheless be considered progression, if the character or the player is able to progress in it.
There is no simple answer, to how to best implement it as there are so many possibilities as to what it can contain. You could argue that ideally a game should thrive to be as inclusive as possible. However, it is certain that a vast number of possible ways to progress can be intimidating itself.
This is precisely why i quit playing wow. I got sick of having all of my efforts wiped away every time an expansion comes out just to appease a bunch of ultra casuals.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche