Quest design

Abaxial

I see a lot of posts here complaining that such-and-such a game is bad because its quests are all "kill 15 goblins" or "fetch 15 purses". I'm not sure exactly what is expected as an alternative. In a single player game, you can write elaborate quest lines witrh tricky ethical decisions to be made, but I'm not sure that is at all possible in a massive multiplayer game where at any point, many other players will be pursuing the same quest.

Given that practically all MMORPGs are focussed on combat, I don't have a problem with "kill 15 goblins" - I'm here to kill something, and the game is kindly telling me at this point it would be good to do goblins rather then hobgoblins. And because it's a quest, I get the bonus of some reward once 15 goblins lie bleeding in the dust, so I'm content.

asdar

I hate what you describe because games all but force you to play that way. It's boring and too structured to feel like a real world. To me there should be real quests that mean something and give a special reward.

A good leveling system should be at least a little open. Players want to play in different ways. Give players quests, but leave the open exploration an option. Supposing I go and kill 144 goblins and you do 12 quests that tell you to kill 12 goblins, 12 orcs, 12 rats and so on until both have killed 144 equally tough mobs. To me that would be roughly fair. Instead of over rewarding quests or NOT rewarding quests with XP there should be a balance.

If I want to head over that hill find a dungeon and crawl through that dungeon killing 144 tougher mobs than your 12 guided quests of 144 mobs then I'm all for getting equal XP for both of us even though I had to look and find my challenge while yours was spoon fed.

To me that's 3 different ways to play and I think that'd make people happy.

The last part of what I have to say would be about quests. What you're calling a quest I would call a task or daily or something because it's just too easy. A quest should be a larger undertaking with a specific goal. EQ had famous Epics quests, but they also had class quests and item quests that were amazingly challenging and complex. I think I read that somethig like 20% of EQ quests still haven't been completed.

Keep the tasks, if you want, and let people level that way, but give us back real quests. Plus let us level the way we want without such disadvantage compared to following the trail.

alyndale

Finally, a scholarly thread and one that I feel is pertinent.

Asdar makes a good point and I thank the OP for beginning this thread. I am a fan of quests and always will be. I'm not all that much of a fan of pick up/delivery and kill x numbers of this or that. However, if these types of quests are intelligently tied together as a story themed quest or one in which you must use what you pick up, discover something while in delivery, or might be able to use a drop from those rats/mole, or hobgoblins to further that quest line, it could be a bit more interesting.

I'm hoping that "Storybricks" will bring about a more interactive, choice driven type of quest.

Let's see how this thread develops.

Alyn

LungingWolf

Originally posted by Abaxial

 

"I see a lot of posts here complaining that such-and-such a game is bad because its quests are all 'kill 15 goblins' or 'fetch 15 purses'. I'm not sure exactly what is expected as an alternative. In a single player game, you can write elaborate quest lines witrh tricky ethical decisions to be made, but I'm not sure that is at all possible in a massive multiplayer game where at any point, many other players will be pursuing the same quest."

 

I agree that the content of "quests" (more like "tasks") are what they are and cannot be anything else.

Having said that, I think that "quests" can be made more meaningful in a holistic sense. For instance, I think that any bigger MMORPG should have many voluntarily factions to choose from. And, "quests" should tie into advancing the interests of your chosen faction(s) and competing against the interests of other factions (i.e. think "questing" and "anti-questing" as competitive PvE). But, the trick should be that the player advances their character in certain respects by advancing the interests and development of their chosen faction(s) in many senses (i.e. leveling up certain abilities and/or resources which are accessible only by their chosen faction(s) when they reach certain levels of success in certain tasks, maintaining the usage of special faction-related abilities and/or resources by defending your faction(s)' success in certain ways, etc.).

Moreover, I think that "quests" can be more interactive overall. For instance, "quest" items could be equippable and usable in a more general sense, "quests" could have optional additional terms for extra rewards in proportion to what you do,  higher level optional "quests" could be offered in tiers and accessible according to how one performs in universally accessible "quests" through tiered standards, and so on.

And, using these basic ideas, there are many ways in which they can be applied in specific, situational detail. I could go on and on with lengthily, detailed examples for these items ...

alyndale

@Lungingwolf, firstly I really love your avatar nic! Do you use in-game? LOL, well anyway nice thread reply made me think about things. Interactive is what I believe we could be heading for. The problem is I suppose EQ Next. We just don't have enough info. What I'd love to know is basically how some of the upcoming mmo's will be handling quest design?

Anyone out there have ideas or links I could read?

Thanks,

Alyn

blastermaster

I agree with most of what's been said so far in this thread. (Great thread btw!)

I think they should make a distinctions between "quests" and "tasks" for one. 

They could also add a bit more "dynamicity" for the tasks. A village could have a number of possible vermins, predators, needs,etc. And they could cycle in these based on numerous factors (season, time, players actions, etc.).

For example, a  village could have issues with some vermin. But after some time (and lots of player doing the kill tasks,etc.) most of the infestation would be taken care of,  so maybe something else could end up being the problem. Predators could be getting starved since their principal source of food (vermins) are now gone, so they come too close to town and we get to put down some of them. Once done, maybe the village is getting ready for winter and needs fire wood and other supplies that needs to be gathered by the players.  Just to make these tasks feel like they actually matter (at least a little bit more than they currently do..)

As far as quests are concerned. They have to be "epic". A quest is something (at least to me) that will take some time to do, and will have various steps and goals along the line (goals who could ranged from simple "tasks" to epic achievements). The story here is important as well! Quests should also conclude with a "great" reward for your character. Not just a piece of gear that will be replaced in the next 20min. Something meaningfull (a piece of gear  with a unique look, and maybe with class specific bonuses that would just not be found on "standard" drops for instance or maybe even a new skill for your class,etc.).

 

But I would also like them to bring back alternate ways to leveling, other than questing!

Most MMOs have put too much emphasis on the "quests" lately. People were tired of "grinding mobs", but now, people are forced to grind quests/tasks, which ends up pretty much the same, at least to me...  Why don't they support more than one way to level up? Diversity is a good thing, and what keeps us playing the same game for months.

Chain killing higher level mobs in a group that knows what he's doing should be a pretty acceptable way to level like it used to be before the "quests" became the center of all the grind...  I think they need to bring back decent XP just for killing mobs your level or higher, and tune down the "task" XP a bit to take this into consideration. People who like grinding mobs in groups at times should be able to do so without feeling like they could be more efficient soloing lower level mobs for some NPC.

 

sunandshadow

Originally posted by Abaxial

In a single player game, you can write elaborate quest lines witrh tricky ethical decisions to be made, but I'm not sure that is at all possible in a massive multiplayer game where at any point, many other players will be pursuing the same quest.

Given that practically all MMORPGs are focused on combat,

Actually, it is entirely possibly to design an MMO to have an interactive story in which each player makes meaningful choices that the game reacts to in a personalized way.  The choices have to be limited to those which don't make major changes in the world, but that still leaves 90% of choice possibilities open.  Also, Only crappy MMOs are blindly focused on combat.  Things like crafting and minigames are the difference between a pointless clone game and a truly good MMO.

Abaxial

It is certainly possible in some games to get experience points from exploration, gathering and crafting, but in my experience the gains made are small. It might have been different in Ultima Online, but I never played that. These days, I always get the impression that experience from non-combat activities is regarded as second-class, token awards, and fighting is really what it's all about. I would be interested in seeing an MMORPG where it is a practical and fun path through the game to progress without combat - is there such a thing?

I also get the impression that few, if any, developers fancy taking the risk of developing a game that is truly original and does not follow the old Everquest/WoW tropes.

OK, so I should have said "task", but in every game I can think of you have a "quest log" which tells you that you are 11/15 goblins so far. You don't have a "task log".