It is not a ripoff if you know what you are buying and make the choice to spend your money on it. If it does not meet your expectations it is still not a rip off. Just not what you expected.
And look at the market trends. The reason alpha access, beta access, pre order bonus items / missions/ect. are so popular is because many many people shell out money for it. I have done it a few times myself and may again depending on the game.
They have been doing this for years now. If people want to pay for it they will keep doing it. And they do it again and again. Thats not being ripped off, its them making a choice to spend on something that you think is a ripoff.
Is largely irrelevant. If a consumer is told half truths or outright lies about the content he/she will be receiving then the fault is with the vendor. That is miss-selling AKA Fraudulence.
"Fraud" is the word you're looking for.
And it depends on how the product is marketed. If I advertise that you will get certain advantages and you don't get them, sure maybe it's fraud. If I advertise that you'll get exclusive items and you don't get them, sure.
But here's the thing about fraud: You have to prove that the false claims are a substantial part of your reason for making the purchase. If you pay primarily because you want early access, and not because of the +2 pickaxe promised, then not receiving the +2 pickaxe probably isn't fraud. The word is "material" -- was the +2 pickaxe material to the agreement?
The next issue that matters in sales fraud is what's called "puffery". Puffing statements statements made to make something seem worthwhile, but which don't actually promise anything. "You will be the best Elf you can be!" doesn't mean that other Elves who don't have the perk will be inferior. Just about every sales contract involves some amount of puffery -- "One of the best cars you can buy!" "No one takes the commitment to excellence more seriously than we do" etc.
Next is "notice". I daresay we are all "on notice" that game developers seldom live up to the early hype. They overestimate what they can deliver and have to roll back schedules and features. We all know this by now. If a promise isn't kept because of a legitimate business reason, then it's not fraud. Fraud exists at the moment a statement is *made* -- I say "You'll get an exclusive Shiny Potato Mount" -- when I have no intention of ever giving you the mount: That's fraud.
I'm an idiot and I overpromise and cannot deliver because of my stupidity: That's not fraud. It's stupidity.
Sure, when a company fails to meet its promises -- even non-fraudulent ones -- you naturally feel you should be compensated. And you could be -- **IF** you stop playing the game and demand to be made whole. When you keep playing/keep logging in, you are accepting the product as-delivered. You don't get to play the game AND get compensated.
With a subscription-based game, as soon as you pay that next months' sub fee, you've waived any claims to reimbursement.
Seriously, game companies do some messed-up things. They're sly, sometimes slimy, sometimes shady, often complete idiots. Game project managers *tend* to be overconfident infalted egos who can't admit overpromising (Carmack, Molyneux, Roper, etc). I'm not defending them in the slightest.
But you are 100% absolutely protected against preorder fraud, via common sense. a) Don't preorder ever. b) When you absolutely must have early access (I do it too, full disclosure), know that what you are paying for is access. Not the +2 Yam of Grievances or the Ring of Salad Tossing or the cloth map or the figurines or the prestige pet.
Ripoff = when you pay for something and you don't get anything close to what you were supposed to get
Pre-ordering is not a ripoff because it's something you're choosing to do.
What would be a ripoff is if you didn't get what you payed for - like you preorder a game - but instead you get a $5 coupon to Starbucks.
When it comes to games - do your research, demo it if you can - don't just throw money at something - as that's on you.
DMKano, you seem to have a habit of defending the corporation that chooses to miss-sell to the consumer, rather than the consumer that is duped by the corporation. It is an unpopular stance.
Caveat Emptor.
Simple phrase, often unheeded.
Look around you. Everywhere you look there is questionable marketing. You're flooded with it daily. This is not a new phenomenon. Are pharmaceutical companies upfront with you? No. Are telecommunications companies upfront with you? No. Are automotive companies upfront with you? No. Are financial institutions upfront with you? No. Are educational institutions upfront with you? No. Are insurance companies upfront with you? No. Are news organizations upfront with you? No. Are government agencies upfront with you? No. Are people upfront with you? No.
Why in the world would you even, for a microscopic second, think that game companies would be any different?
Hello in there...
If you let yourself be duped... the only one to blame is you.
Responsibility... it's a terrible thing to waste.
All catch phrases... so truthful in their words... yet never heeded.
Pre-orders? No. You are paying for extra perks on top of the game/expansion itself. I don't see it was a ripoff, although one could certainly complain that certain pre-orders don't give you enough goodies for pre-ordering.
Crowdfunding/kickstarter? Yup. Ripoff. Anybody that pays for a concept as opposed to an actual game doesn't deserve to have money to spend.
I think that this is the classic, and harmful, misconception about crowd funding that really needs to stop. First of all, just as with a pre-order, if you pay attention to what you're buying, you can be fairly certain that they will be delivering on what you're buying. Sure, there have been, and will continue to be, cases where a crowd-funding campaign isn't successful, but I this rarely happens. Crowd funding is where innovation lives. You will NOT see AAA companies creating $20 million games that are truly innovative, because they KNOW in their minds that it won't be successful. AAA companies will never be trailblazers.
So if you want WoW clones until the end of time, you continue on with this thought process. If you want something innovative, then you need to open your wallet and speak with money, sorry. Case in point, people here continually complain about a lack of innovation in the industry and how a sandbox game is all that the industry wants and...... here...... we have a resounding 400 people or so who have shown their interest enough in a true sandbox to crack their wallet. Hey SONY!!! See!! Told you there was a market to bring SWG back!!!! Alive and thriving!!!!
Unfortunately, you don't get that your constant fight against things like crowd funding actually hurt innovation in the industry.
From my experience most of the included items in preorders are slightly helpful when starting out but after months to years all of that becomes worthless replaced with something better that you don't have to pay for.
Originally posted by mmoguy43 From my experience most of the included items in preorders are slightly helpful when starting out but after months to years all of that becomes worthless replaced with something better that you don't have to pay for.
Firefall actually had what I would consider a VERY valuable package. For $20 you got like some in-game cash, plus a permanent 5% XP bonus? Win!
Never preorder games. Doing so is why we get some many half finished games. People get stupid when it comes to games, they far to often feel they have to have be the first and have all the stuff, like they are winning something. Wait for a game to launch, let the fools rush in and waste their time with broken content, queues, and unfullfilled promises.
Roses are red Violets are blue The reviewer has a mishapen head Which means his opinion is skewed ...Aldous.MF'n.Huxley
Originally posted by lugal Never preorder games. Doing so is why we get some many half finished games. People get stupid when it comes to games, they far to often feel they have to have be the first and have all the stuff, like they are winning something. Wait for a game to launch, let the fools rush in and waste their time with broken content, queues, and unfullfilled promises.
People preordering games has literally nothing to do with so many half finished games being pushed out the presses.
Today people do not like to be responsible for their lives...it is someone else's job to take the fall or protect people from themselves is the new mantra.
Ripoff = when you pay for something and you don't get anything close to what you were supposed to get
Pre-ordering is not a ripoff because it's something you're choosing to do.
What would be a ripoff is if you didn't get what you payed for - like you preorder a game - but instead you get a $5 coupon to Starbucks.
When it comes to games - do your research, demo it if you can - don't just throw money at something - as that's on you.
DMKano, you seem to have a habit of defending the corporation that chooses to miss-sell to the consumer, rather than the consumer that is duped by the corporation. It is an unpopular stance.
No.
People need to start taking responsibility for their own actions, as that is the source of the issue when it comes to pre-ordering games.
Demo it, do research - be an informed consumer.
Blaming companies for your own irresponsible habits is again not their problem.
Do not agree with Kano a lot.. but hey, when he is right, do not have a lot of choice:P
Unless and until companies start grabbing your wallets and or CC cards and putting charges on them, this topic is more like asking someone or something (like government) to take care of you like you are a child.
People that willingly pay for something have no reason to bitch and holler. Do not like the crowd funding, pre buying, pay to test/beta ? Well do not do it. Pretty simple.
But trying to tell others what they can and can not do with there cash and time.. also a waste of time. Lot of foolish people out there, hence the paid betas/ pre orders and crowd funding going on.
The question might seem slightly loaded but it only reflects my point of view.
I was rather disturbed to see the following developments: -
Pre-order packages hit the $100 mark, and then surpassed it many, many times over.
A sense of P2W was promoted before games had even released.
Potential purchasers were duped by arbitrary values being applied to items that are worth nothing ($0) in the real world but were given values by developers that frankly only equate to BS.
Players were being asked to pay to test a developers unfinished, buggy game.
The games had received no play time and no reviews when the developers asked for these financial outlays to be made.
This all seemed so absurd to me I could not believe for a moment that anyone would fork out their hard earned cash for such a ridiculous offer. It seemed absurd; it occurs in no other sphere of business or sales, because people are seriously not this stupid.
Yet it seems gamers are.
Share your thoughts.
Please quantify in Dollars or Euros the value of a gamer's enjoyment when crowd funding a product they are interested in or the opportunity to alpha/beta test a product they are interested. That is the monetary value you can place on pre-orders. You obviously see no monetary value in this. In some projects I see monetary value in funding a project I am interested in hoping it will succeed ti fruition, I expect to get nothing in return apart from fostering the innovation of developers. If it's a game I plan on playing I will pre-order and expect to get nothing except the ability to play said game on release, anything else is a bonus.
There is no rip off when you choose to go against your better judgement and order something that doesn't exist.
Stop pre-ordering. Wait until there is a real product to find out if it's worth your money.
Just because you've decided to give your money to a company who advertises that you are buying a product that isn't available yet doesn't make it a rip off. If they never deliver the product then it's a rip off.
It isn't the company's fault that you have decided to pay for ordering a product of unknown quality that will exist. That's your fault.
There is no extortion either. No one has threatened you or forced you to pay for something that doesn't exist yet. You decided to do that. Take responsibility for your actions.
Here's a clue if you don't like pre-ordering. DON"T DO IT!
"I used to think the worst thing in life was to be all alone. It's not. The worst thing in life is to end up with people who make you feel all alone." Robin Williams
The reality is that many gamers DO place a value on preorder perks and advantages. That people get mad over the existence of preorder packages is absolute proof that these things are not worthless regardless of their lack of physical substance.
Part of the disconnect is that the value is mostly in the enjoyment "feeling special" grants to the gamer. We don't want to recognize it because of what it might say about us, but we can't escape the economic reality of it. It means something to many gamers to be one of the first to play a game. It means something to be the first to hit certain in-game milestones. It means something to have in-game items that other players don't have access to. It means something to believe one has an opportunity to contribute to a game's development or direction. It means something to be able to dream/delude oneself about being noticed cheerleading/apologizing on a beta forum and being offered a job by the developer. It means something to show your loyalty to a brand or franchise.
Maybe not to you or me, but it does to a lot of gamers. Millions of them, in fact. And because these things DO mean something to many gamers, they are willing to pay for the opportunity to experience them. If everybody felt ripped off by preorders, everybody would stop preordering, and they would go away.
In the long-term, of course, it's not so simple, for reasons identified in the OP. Players can wind up feeling ripped off, either because of the quality of the perks or because of the quality of the game itself. Players who didn't preorder can become angry and disillusioned because they don't have access to certain things that might be associated with a preorder (or maybe were just removed from the game). I might not value X now, but after a couple of years I really get into the game and now I place a high value on X. Sometimes the perception that a developer is catering to certain players during development because those players threw money at them can actually negatively impact the value somebody else places on the game. Sometimes the perceived value gamers place on having preordered leads to a caustic element in the community. Basically, there are long-term "costs" to having dissatisfied customers that are not easily quantifiable.
TL;DR
I'm not convinced there is a problem.
If people are getting the requisite amount of enjoyment for their preorder -- and there are many people who obviously do or they would cease to exist -- who are you or I or anyone to say they shouldn't be able to spend their money on said preorder? If you feel you got ripped off, learn to both better assess the enjoyment you will derive from preorder perks and advantages and better inform yourself about a game before you preorder again. In a free market economy the onus is on you to be a responsible and informed consumer. Of course, sometimes companies probably do need to be more mindful about the potential negatives and figure out ways to manage player disappointment associated with preorders, with eye toward to minimizing those negatives in the long-term, or even turning them into positives if possible (ie trading in perks, rolling things over to other games, etc.).
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Comments
It is not a ripoff if you know what you are buying and make the choice to spend your money on it. If it does not meet your expectations it is still not a rip off. Just not what you expected.
And look at the market trends. The reason alpha access, beta access, pre order bonus items / missions/ect. are so popular is because many many people shell out money for it. I have done it a few times myself and may again depending on the game.
They have been doing this for years now. If people want to pay for it they will keep doing it. And they do it again and again. Thats not being ripped off, its them making a choice to spend on something that you think is a ripoff.
"Fraud" is the word you're looking for.
And it depends on how the product is marketed. If I advertise that you will get certain advantages and you don't get them, sure maybe it's fraud. If I advertise that you'll get exclusive items and you don't get them, sure.
But here's the thing about fraud: You have to prove that the false claims are a substantial part of your reason for making the purchase. If you pay primarily because you want early access, and not because of the +2 pickaxe promised, then not receiving the +2 pickaxe probably isn't fraud. The word is "material" -- was the +2 pickaxe material to the agreement?
The next issue that matters in sales fraud is what's called "puffery". Puffing statements statements made to make something seem worthwhile, but which don't actually promise anything. "You will be the best Elf you can be!" doesn't mean that other Elves who don't have the perk will be inferior. Just about every sales contract involves some amount of puffery -- "One of the best cars you can buy!" "No one takes the commitment to excellence more seriously than we do" etc.
Next is "notice". I daresay we are all "on notice" that game developers seldom live up to the early hype. They overestimate what they can deliver and have to roll back schedules and features. We all know this by now. If a promise isn't kept because of a legitimate business reason, then it's not fraud. Fraud exists at the moment a statement is *made* -- I say "You'll get an exclusive Shiny Potato Mount" -- when I have no intention of ever giving you the mount: That's fraud.
I'm an idiot and I overpromise and cannot deliver because of my stupidity: That's not fraud. It's stupidity.
Sure, when a company fails to meet its promises -- even non-fraudulent ones -- you naturally feel you should be compensated. And you could be -- **IF** you stop playing the game and demand to be made whole. When you keep playing/keep logging in, you are accepting the product as-delivered. You don't get to play the game AND get compensated.
With a subscription-based game, as soon as you pay that next months' sub fee, you've waived any claims to reimbursement.
Seriously, game companies do some messed-up things. They're sly, sometimes slimy, sometimes shady, often complete idiots. Game project managers *tend* to be overconfident infalted egos who can't admit overpromising (Carmack, Molyneux, Roper, etc). I'm not defending them in the slightest.
But you are 100% absolutely protected against preorder fraud, via common sense. a) Don't preorder ever. b) When you absolutely must have early access (I do it too, full disclosure), know that what you are paying for is access. Not the +2 Yam of Grievances or the Ring of Salad Tossing or the cloth map or the figurines or the prestige pet.
(Yes, I know what I'm talking about re: the law.)
Caveat Emptor.
Simple phrase, often unheeded.
Look around you. Everywhere you look there is questionable marketing. You're flooded with it daily. This is not a new phenomenon. Are pharmaceutical companies upfront with you? No. Are telecommunications companies upfront with you? No. Are automotive companies upfront with you? No. Are financial institutions upfront with you? No. Are educational institutions upfront with you? No. Are insurance companies upfront with you? No. Are news organizations upfront with you? No. Are government agencies upfront with you? No. Are people upfront with you? No.
Why in the world would you even, for a microscopic second, think that game companies would be any different?
Hello in there...
If you let yourself be duped... the only one to blame is you.
Responsibility... it's a terrible thing to waste.
All catch phrases... so truthful in their words... yet never heeded.
Hence the phrase, "In hindsight..."
I think that this is the classic, and harmful, misconception about crowd funding that really needs to stop. First of all, just as with a pre-order, if you pay attention to what you're buying, you can be fairly certain that they will be delivering on what you're buying. Sure, there have been, and will continue to be, cases where a crowd-funding campaign isn't successful, but I this rarely happens. Crowd funding is where innovation lives. You will NOT see AAA companies creating $20 million games that are truly innovative, because they KNOW in their minds that it won't be successful. AAA companies will never be trailblazers.
So if you want WoW clones until the end of time, you continue on with this thought process. If you want something innovative, then you need to open your wallet and speak with money, sorry. Case in point, people here continually complain about a lack of innovation in the industry and how a sandbox game is all that the industry wants and...... here...... we have a resounding 400 people or so who have shown their interest enough in a true sandbox to crack their wallet. Hey SONY!!! See!! Told you there was a market to bring SWG back!!!! Alive and thriving!!!!
Unfortunately, you don't get that your constant fight against things like crowd funding actually hurt innovation in the industry.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
Firefall actually had what I would consider a VERY valuable package. For $20 you got like some in-game cash, plus a permanent 5% XP bonus? Win!
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
Roses are red
Violets are blue
The reviewer has a mishapen head
Which means his opinion is skewed
...Aldous.MF'n.Huxley
People preordering games has literally nothing to do with so many half finished games being pushed out the presses.
Do not agree with Kano a lot.. but hey, when he is right, do not have a lot of choice:P
Unless and until companies start grabbing your wallets and or CC cards and putting charges on them, this topic is more like asking someone or something (like government) to take care of you like you are a child.
People that willingly pay for something have no reason to bitch and holler. Do not like the crowd funding, pre buying, pay to test/beta ? Well do not do it. Pretty simple.
But trying to tell others what they can and can not do with there cash and time.. also a waste of time. Lot of foolish people out there, hence the paid betas/ pre orders and crowd funding going on.
Let fools be fools. my opinion of course:)
Please quantify in Dollars or Euros the value of a gamer's enjoyment when crowd funding a product they are interested in or the opportunity to alpha/beta test a product they are interested. That is the monetary value you can place on pre-orders. You obviously see no monetary value in this. In some projects I see monetary value in funding a project I am interested in hoping it will succeed ti fruition, I expect to get nothing in return apart from fostering the innovation of developers. If it's a game I plan on playing I will pre-order and expect to get nothing except the ability to play said game on release, anything else is a bonus.
There is no rip off when you choose to go against your better judgement and order something that doesn't exist.
Stop pre-ordering. Wait until there is a real product to find out if it's worth your money.
Just because you've decided to give your money to a company who advertises that you are buying a product that isn't available yet doesn't make it a rip off. If they never deliver the product then it's a rip off.
It isn't the company's fault that you have decided to pay for ordering a product of unknown quality that will exist. That's your fault.
There is no extortion either. No one has threatened you or forced you to pay for something that doesn't exist yet. You decided to do that. Take responsibility for your actions.
Here's a clue if you don't like pre-ordering. DON"T DO IT!
The reality is that many gamers DO place a value on preorder perks and advantages. That people get mad over the existence of preorder packages is absolute proof that these things are not worthless regardless of their lack of physical substance.
Part of the disconnect is that the value is mostly in the enjoyment "feeling special" grants to the gamer. We don't want to recognize it because of what it might say about us, but we can't escape the economic reality of it. It means something to many gamers to be one of the first to play a game. It means something to be the first to hit certain in-game milestones. It means something to have in-game items that other players don't have access to. It means something to believe one has an opportunity to contribute to a game's development or direction. It means something to be able to dream/delude oneself about being noticed cheerleading/apologizing on a beta forum and being offered a job by the developer. It means something to show your loyalty to a brand or franchise.
Maybe not to you or me, but it does to a lot of gamers. Millions of them, in fact. And because these things DO mean something to many gamers, they are willing to pay for the opportunity to experience them. If everybody felt ripped off by preorders, everybody would stop preordering, and they would go away.
In the long-term, of course, it's not so simple, for reasons identified in the OP. Players can wind up feeling ripped off, either because of the quality of the perks or because of the quality of the game itself. Players who didn't preorder can become angry and disillusioned because they don't have access to certain things that might be associated with a preorder (or maybe were just removed from the game). I might not value X now, but after a couple of years I really get into the game and now I place a high value on X. Sometimes the perception that a developer is catering to certain players during development because those players threw money at them can actually negatively impact the value somebody else places on the game. Sometimes the perceived value gamers place on having preordered leads to a caustic element in the community. Basically, there are long-term "costs" to having dissatisfied customers that are not easily quantifiable.
TL;DR
I'm not convinced there is a problem.
If people are getting the requisite amount of enjoyment for their preorder -- and there are many people who obviously do or they would cease to exist -- who are you or I or anyone to say they shouldn't be able to spend their money on said preorder? If you feel you got ripped off, learn to both better assess the enjoyment you will derive from preorder perks and advantages and better inform yourself about a game before you preorder again. In a free market economy the onus is on you to be a responsible and informed consumer. Of course, sometimes companies probably do need to be more mindful about the potential negatives and figure out ways to manage player disappointment associated with preorders, with eye toward to minimizing those negatives in the long-term, or even turning them into positives if possible (ie trading in perks, rolling things over to other games, etc.).
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.