And then there are the well intended developers who have no business sense.
This is the situation that I think is the most prevelant risk. There are many talended developers who want to show what they can do and have great ideas and concepts, but when it comes to managing those financially,, well.............2 words.
Brad McQuaid
Yeah, this always is a risk with crowdfunding (far more so than actual scammers I think). To paraphrase what they say in EVE: Don't give money to a crowdfunding campaign that you can't afford to lose.
The good thing about crowdfunding is that an investor is going to look at a game only according to how much money it's going to make. They usually don't care at all if it's an actual good game. If you can get millions by investing in Farmville why not do it? Crowdfunding on the other hand attracts the kind of passionate fans who will back ideas based on artistic merit not on how much money they stand to make.
It would be great, if people were funding actual developers with vision.
Seems like crowd funding is just proving how ignorant both developers and players are. How little they understand and how foolish they are in their beliefs. Not much different than the real world.
Crowdfunding is the BEST thing to ever happen to gaming. The very best because it allows the consumer to guide the direction MMO's will take. I can guide the direction by funding those projects that say they're going to try to make what I want.
Too many people want to be protected in this world. If someone rips me off, then I certainly won't invest in them again and if it happens too many times then I won't fund anything. Even if the latter happened I'd think it was a great thing.
I like to gamble a bit, I usually take $200 and play with it until I run out. I don't go over my limit, I don't feel bad about losing that $200 because it's the cost of gambling. I see this as the same thing. I'm willing to gamble and if I lose I went in prepared to lose.
Instead of the negatives I'd like to take a look at the positives. I'll use Star Citizen as an example because they're the king of funding. I've always wanted a game that had space battles, space boarding, FPS, trading and land based game play. Now I get to gamble on this game. I can send a real monetary message to devs that this is the kind of game I want. If I win my gamble I get something I've really wanted for a long time. If I lose, I lose less money than I spend on a single Xbox game that I'm not all that happy with.
If you're not a responsible person don't gamble either with funding or at the tables. I am a responsible person and don't need or want your protection.
To me, crowdfunding is way to get something funded that can't funded through the normal channels. It also means, not really having to make a product to get the money - just say "OOPS SORRY!' and walk away.
If the game is funded through normal channels, the developer has development milestones they have to meet or the people funding it, can pull the plug. With crowdfunding there is no checks and balance system like that. They can really just take the money and run. I will be amazed if Start Citizen ever comes out - all they seem to be doing is putting out more ships to make more money.
Well, I can see how from an investors point of view (after all they do live off of the returns on their investments...) this might appear to be a Bad Thing(tm). I'll even give you that some of your points are quite true.
That having been said, the majority of projects are not created as scams. I'm more than willing to back projects that appear interesting, and might result in games that may be fun to play. After all, I can always get more money, but fun games are in rather short supply.
Not to mention that along with all of those rules and regulations that investors insist on, comes way too much control of the resulting project. With all of the horrible results we've seen for years and years now.
Your argument centers around the fact that it isn't an investment. If someone goes into a kickstarter thinking that, it is a bad thing, but the kickstarter is not at fault.
Kickstarter is not a not-for-profit organization so it is reasonable to expect a fee. You can argue the amounts, percentages, types, etc. However, the short of it is.... it is normal.
Kickstarter does what it is supposed to do. Provide a funding stream for people to start their projects. The proof of its success is in successful projects.
If you have the money to give, I see no problem. If you go into it, thinking it is an investment, you are not reading what you are doing. Not the fault of kickstarter.
Crowd funding, to me, is the scourge that has recently hit the gaming world and here is why: -
Some people seem to believe it is an investment. Go and tell your friendly local financial advisor that you are investing in a crowd funded project and prepare to be laughed out the door. It is not investment, you are effectively gifting a company money to profit off of your goodwill.
It is neither an investment in a business or a donation to a charity, and as such you are currently not protected by any regulation.
There is no legal recourse if they do not deliver. None.
Kickstarter as an example skims 5% off all successfully funded projects but absolve themselves of all responsibility to check the viability of said projects. This is money for old rope; or payment for funder's ignorance.
If the project is not delivered, yet it achieved its funding the best you can do is send an angry e-mail.
And here is the worst part of it all: -
Companies generally require finance to proceed with a project. In so doing they need backers, shareholder or loans; all of whom apply strict criteria to the delivery of the project in terms of budget and programme in order to obtain a return on their investment. Crowd funders do not have this ability.
You simply have no control; a budget or programme can be extended or reduced or absolved all together.
and if off the back off your hard earned cash, the company is successful they keep 100% of their profits with no outlay or risk whatsoever, off of the back of your money.
This is the most hideous and mercenary misuse of people's goodwill I have had the misfortune to ever see.
Please share your thoughts.
Op
I could not agree with you less..The whole tone and assumption of your post is that people are stupid, clueless,idiots who need to be protected from themselves (by big government and regulations ??). If people were actually as clueless and vulnerable as you suggest we would not have the incredible amounts of money they donate to charities.We would not have the large amounts people give to research cures for disease ,to the arts etc.
IMO kick starter is and important way to improve the " me too" businesses mogs have become. Kick starter is a donation...and the government politicians haven't found a way to tax and regulate it to death....yet.
and that's a good thing....not a bad thing.
Give people some credit, They are far far better decision makers than the politicians who you suggest should regulate each individuals donation decision making.
Originally posted by asdarCrowdfunding is the BEST thing to ever happen to gaming. The very best because it allows the consumer to guide the direction MMO's will take. I can guide the direction by funding those projects that say they're going to try to make what I want.Too many people want to be protected in this world. If someone rips me off, then I certainly won't invest in them again and if it happens too many times then I won't fund anything. Even if the latter happened I'd think it was a great thing.I like to gamble a bit, I usually take $200 and play with it until I run out. I don't go over my limit, I don't feel bad about losing that $200 because it's the cost of gambling. I see this as the same thing. I'm willing to gamble and if I lose I went in prepared to lose.Instead of the negatives I'd like to take a look at the positives. I'll use Star Citizen as an example because they're the king of funding. I've always wanted a game that had space battles, space boarding, FPS, trading and land based game play. Now I get to gamble on this game. I can send a real monetary message to devs that this is the kind of game I want. If I win my gamble I get something I've really wanted for a long time. If I lose, I lose less money than I spend on a single Xbox game that I'm not all that happy with.If you're not a responsible person don't gamble either with funding or at the tables. I am a responsible person and don't need or want your protection.
To me, crowdfunding is way to get something funded that can't funded through the normal channels. It also means, not really having to make a product to get the money - just say "OOPS SORRY!' and walk away.
If the game is funded through normal channels, the developer has development milestones they have to meet or the people funding it, can pull the plug. With crowdfunding there is no checks and balance system like that. They can really just take the money and run. I will be amazed if Start Citizen ever comes out - all they seem to be doing is putting out more ships to make more money.
I would rather flush the money down the toilet.
I'd say the easiest method of flushing your money is to spend it on another game that SoE backs or another crappy WoW expansion.
I won't tell you how to spend your money, and I don't need your two cents on how to spend mine.
[mod edit] For the first time in this genre we get to back the games we want. There are milestones in every drive I've seen.
Do you think if an established investor pulls out they get their money back?
I sort of agree. While the projects I have backed are either still in development, or have resulted in worthwhile products, I'm all too aware of the risks involved.
Just look at the recent debacle of Double Fine's game Space Base DF9. They weren't getting enough cash through early access, so they slapped a patch onto it, called it a 'release version', and more or less stopped development, leaving the game without promised features, and no plans to add them. That's about as disgusting and unethical as business practices get.
There's an MMO out there (can't remember the name, one of those sci-fi indie ones) which also went through Kickstarter, where the developer has also stopped actively working on the game despite making their Kickstarter goals. Why? Because they had somebody pledge thousands of dollars to get the kickstarter funded, then returned that person's money. This was admitted by the game's creator in a public forum, yet Kickstarter took no action despite it being an obvious case of fraud. Plus if one person can do it, who says others haven't / can't?
As much as I despise government regulation, some oversight is definitely needed here. The software industry continues to get away with unethical business practices due to the somewhat intangible and mercurial nature of their products, and that needs to stop. No other company could sell products in the manner which PC software developers / publishers do and remain in business; they'd get their asses sued off.
Crowd funding can be a very positive thing though, and I really hope the industry starts regulating itself before the government has to step in.
AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!
We are born of the blood. Made men by the blood. Undone by the blood. Our eyes are yet to open. FEAR THE OLD BLOOD.
Originally posted by Ket_Viliano Crowd funding is the best thing to ever happen, not only to games, but for all entrepreneurial efforts. The ability to pre-sell product is critical to establishing actual market demand, before shelling out scarce or hard to replace capital. The funds received can either free the developer from control risk, or prove to an investor that the demand is real, thereby securing the investment. Because of crowd funding, we will be seeing games come to market, that would otherwise never have been made.
If it was a manufacturer of kitchen sinks you would not feel the same way. Stop thinking with the heart and start with the head.
Stop thinking with your wallet... ^^ As I stated, I can always get more money. I can't always find new good games to play. In the worst case, I'm out some money. Best case, I have a great new game to play. The reality some times ends up in the middle. But I'm good with that. Its my choice, and my risk.
I'm sorry but i'm getting really tired of the comparisons to pyramid schemes. Crowd funding, and in particular kickstarter requires extreme transparence, the consumer has ALL of the information available to make a decision of whether to part with their money. Pyramid schemes by definition are SCHEMES, they specifically give out false information to lure people in. There is literally 0 comparison.
Crowdfunding is especially important in this era of gaming because of companies like EA, Ubisoft, etc. These companies are only interested in making games that will make money hand over fist. They WILL NOT fund games that may only sell say 2 or 3 million copies. They will not fund a game that might cost 5 million to make, even if the game has a reasonably accurate estimate that it will make 15 million, because thats not enough profit for them.
Why do you think we have Mass Effect 4, Call of Duty 814, Assassin's Creed 45, Madden 2015/16/17/18/19, etc.
Without kickstarter we wouldnt have (soon to be released) Pillars of Eternity, Wasteland 2, a multitude of others games which have come out and been EXCELLENT games.
Anybody who thinks crowdfunding is a bad thing does not have the consumer's best interest in their mind.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Originally posted by Shadanwolf Originally posted by PioneerStewCrowd funding, to me, is the scourge that has recently hit the gaming world and here is why: -Some people seem to believe it is an investment. Go and tell your friendly local financial advisor that you are investing in a crowd funded project and prepare to be laughed out the door. It is not investment, you are effectively gifting a company money to profit off of your goodwill. It is neither an investment in a business or a donation to a charity, and as such you are currently not protected by any regulation. There is no legal recourse if they do not deliver. None. Kickstarter as an example skims 5% off all successfully funded projects but absolve themselves of all responsibility to check the viability of said projects. This is money for old rope; or payment for funder's ignorance. If the project is not delivered, yet it achieved its funding the best you can do is send an angry e-mail. And here is the worst part of it all: - Companies generally require finance to proceed with a project. In so doing they need backers, shareholder or loans; all of whom apply strict criteria to the delivery of the project in terms of budget and programme in order to obtain a return on their investment. Crowd funders do not have this ability. You simply have no control; a budget or programme can be extended or reduced or absolved all together. and if off the back off your hard earned cash, the company is successful they keep 100% of their profits with no outlay or risk whatsoever, off of the back of your money. This is the most hideous and mercenary misuse of people's goodwill I have had the misfortune to ever see. Please share your thoughts.
Op
I could not agree with you less..The whole tone and assumption of your post is that people are stupid, clueless,idiots who need to be protected from themselves (by big government and regulations ??). If people were actually as clueless and vulnerable as you suggest we would not have the incredible amounts of money they donate to charities.We would not have the large amounts people give to research cures for disease ,to the arts etc.
IMO kick starter is and important way to improve the " me too" businesses mogs have become. Kick starter is a donation...and the government politicians haven't found a way to tax and regulate it to death....yet.
and that's a good thing....not a bad thing.
Give people some credit, They are far far better decision makers than the politicians who you suggest should regulate each individuals donation decision making.
I see it as a mashup between venture capital and preorder
Preorder your going to get your product, there's no risk in that (if you like it or not is a different story). It's not an investment, it's a transaction - your purchasing a product.
Venture capital is an investment, but there's absolutely no guarantee it will pay off. High risk, high reward are the way these are typically structured.
So mix the two together:
It's a transaction, your purchasing a product, but that product has no guarantee it will actually ship. You aren't investing in the company, or product really - the only thing you will get is "possibly" the items promised in whatever backing level you choose (a transaction, or pre-purchase). I don't think, if anyone gets into a Kickstarter (or the like) and actually reads all the disclaimers, that this should come as a surprise to anyone.
That being said, I think it's a good idea to have available - but it's also one in which I choose not to participate because I don't see any products in there I want/need bad enough to pre-purchase on a prayer that they will get made.
There are a lot of good titles that have been crowdfunded. There are certainly some stinkers out there, and looking at some early access games on Steam, some devs get the money and run. But, on the whole, crowdfunding is great for the industry. There are a lot of great indie titles being crowdfunded.
Crowdfunding is bad because youre donating instead of investing.
Imagine if microsoft was kickstarted, only bill gates would be rich right now, before if a company wanted money to make a product the poeple GIVING money earned a percentage of that products future growth.
crowdfunding is a fucking scam, its devs asking for money and giving you the oppertunity to pay for the product you paid to create, its double dipping, worst then day one dlc.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
Well, if Kickstarter is a donation, then before anyone uses Kickstarter they should do research on whatever they're donating to so that they know what the goals are (like with any other donation).
And if the person/company is transparent about what they're doing with the money and actually trying to make progress on their stated goal, then there should be no issue, whether they succeed or fail.
You don't expect a return on a donation. I think investors are great and all, but the bigger the share other people have in your business, the more control they have over what you do. If you don't listen to your investors, then they pull the plug on you and you have less money.
Crowd funding is just a tool. A funding method. Nothing more, nothing less.
The problem is people, they generally make terrible "investment" decisions. Most businesses fail in their first year, and crowd funding opens up the opportunity for any joe schmoe to drop money on an idea with minimal research into the idea, the plans, organization, etc behind it.
So basically you need to think of crowd funding as charity to for-profit companies. If you give money, you should do it with the expectation that you're simply giving money away for a consolation gift.
I am with the OP on this issue 100%, that is why I dont crow funding anything. If you make me an investor or a shareholder I will crow fund you, so I can get some revenue from my investment but give you money to play a game where later on I have to pay more money to play forget it.
Originally posted by mayito7777 I am with the OP on this issue 100%, that is why I dont crow funding anything. If you make me an investor or a shareholder I will crow fund you, so I can get some revenue from my investment but give you money to play a game where later on I have to pay more money to play forget it.
They aren't making you an investor. If you'd like to be an investor then go ahead and invest a couple million. Also, I'm sure that they'd be more than happy to sell you some share of the company for $20. Problem is that they could simply dilute you later on with bigger investors, to the point where you'll never see a dime, and it's much easier and much more legal than saying you'll deliver on something and not following through.
Thanks, but I'll just take my game and bonuses that they gave me.
Crowdfunding has its place imo. In this time of rampant marketeering, it's very hard for any radical new projects to emerge, projects that don't fit into the strict little statistical analysis that marketing departments shoehorn many developers into. Kickstarters and the like can help to let those projects see the light of day.
Similarly, some charitable goals have also found their way through crowdfunding. Some redistribution of wealth in that way is a pretty good thing.
BUT, this whole thing has been growing way too fast for any sort of regulation to follow suit. People are also not being critical enough of the stuff certain naive individuals are proposing.
Money is thrown at projects that are unlikely to ever get finished or are run by people who have no clue what they're doing. I've personally had to interview people who were trying to set up a project for local windmills with crowdfunded money where not a single individual involved was an actual engineer who knew anything about windmills. It was set up by a bunch of idealistic social scientists who didn't have the first clue of the practical implications of their plans. Still, it got funded, result: nothing has happened since, only a few open letters have been sent.
Finally, in terms of redistribution of wealth, the truly rich will probably find their way to investments that actually give them a return far more easily due to having the correct financial advice and instruments at their disposal.
I think part of the problem is that what was intended as a "last chance" vehicle for funding (crowdfunding, which is really a mutation of its predecessor 'crowdsourcing') has become the "go to" method for many corporations. Some of these corporations may have relatively benign intentions but little sense (see: Yogscast Adventures). Others, others are literally preying on those with more money than sense by employing psychological tricks and clever marketing, exploiting the very worst parts of the human psyche as the authors of this video claim some F2P games do. It's the exact same mentality.
Like any technology, crowdfunding is in itself neither good or bad. It is a double edged sword. The plus side is that some good projects are funded that may not have been otherwise, and more quickly. The down side is that some people are getting paid that probably shouldn't be.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
crowdfunding is a fucking scam, its devs asking for money and giving you the oppertunity to pay for the product you paid to create, its double dipping, worst then day one dlc.
Originally posted by mayito7777 I am with the OP on this issue 100%, that is why I dont crow funding anything. If you make me an investor or a shareholder I will crow fund you, so I can get some revenue from my investment but give you money to play a game where later on I have to pay more money to play forget it.
Really? The kickstarters I've backed I get the product for free when released, I don't have to pay again.
Crowd funding is a charitable contribution. You should expect nothing back in return. Hopefully it will have a positive outcome and not be used by an African Warlord to buy shoulder launched SAMs.
Crowd funding has delivered some of my favourite games of recent times (Banner Saga, Wasteland 2, and now E: D), as well as some good ones (Shadowrun, Broken Sword), so I have to say that I love crowdfunding for games. None of these would have ever been made without CF.
This isn't even touching on how it works for me as a tabletop gamer.
So, yeah, carry on trying to rip it down, it's easy to focus on the negative in all things, but I and others obviously find a lot of worth in Kickstarter and others.
They have helped revive genres declared 'dead' by AAA devs simply because they didn't deliver as much cold profit as MoH or whatever. They have helped, alongside other elements like Steam, fertilise gaming at it's grassroots. For that I can cheer them on, despite the stumbles of some.
Now... If I can just get SOE to reform Verant and them make a KS for Everquest Classic....
Crowd funding has delivered some of my favourite games of recent times (Banner Saga, Wasteland 2, and now E: D), as well as some good ones (Shadowrun, Broken Sword), so I have to say that I love crowdfunding for games. None of these would have ever been made without CF.
This isn't even touching on how it works for me as a tabletop gamer.
So, yeah, carry on trying to rip it down, it's easy to focus on the negative in all things, but I and others obviously find a lot of worth in Kickstarter and others.
They have helped revive genres declared 'dead' by AAA devs simply because they didn't deliver as much cold profit as MoH or whatever. They have helped, alongside other elements like Steam, fertilise gaming at it's grassroots. For that I can cheer them on, despite the stumbles of some.
Now... If I can just get SOE to reform Verant and them make a KS for Everquest Classic....
Just thought I'd make that a little more clear. If you think that standing by or refusing to contribute to crowdfunding campaigns is somehow helping, then you're wrong. I've said it before and I'll say it again, until I'm blue in the face, the only message you're sending by not supporting crowd-funded games is that there is no market for those games. If you think that AAA publishers aren't watching crowd-funding campaigns with lots of interest, then you're sorely mistaken. Actually, it's more effective than a forum post, or a strongly-worded email, or a petition because it puts your money where your mouth is.
You want a sandbox? Then get up off your arse and crack that wallet for these games like Shards Online that want to do something truly innovative. I hear plenty of talk on here about "When are AAA publishers going to listen and make a sandbox game?" Then something like Shards comes along and are sitting at less than 500 people who have backed it. Yup! 10-4, message received. Over and out!!! Granted, it's not indicative of the true market size or potential, but I'm sure they have pretty good metrics of previous campaigns and what they ended up converting into once they released. Either way, the whole point is that they know immediately that the size of the market is small, and they simply don't want to spend the money, themselves, to get there.
crowdfunding is a fucking scam, its devs asking for money and giving you the oppertunity to pay for the product you paid to create, its double dipping, worst then day one dlc.
Originally posted by mayito7777 I am with the OP on this issue 100%, that is why I dont crow funding anything. If you make me an investor or a shareholder I will crow fund you, so I can get some revenue from my investment but give you money to play a game where later on I have to pay more money to play forget it.
Really? The kickstarters I've backed I get the product for free when released, I don't have to pay again.
Which one is that? All you have to pay later on DCLs or other stuff, how about Star Citizen 61 millions and still begging for more money.
Comments
Yeah, this always is a risk with crowdfunding (far more so than actual scammers I think). To paraphrase what they say in EVE: Don't give money to a crowdfunding campaign that you can't afford to lose.
The good thing about crowdfunding is that an investor is going to look at a game only according to how much money it's going to make. They usually don't care at all if it's an actual good game. If you can get millions by investing in Farmville why not do it? Crowdfunding on the other hand attracts the kind of passionate fans who will back ideas based on artistic merit not on how much money they stand to make.
It would be great, if people were funding actual developers with vision.
Seems like crowd funding is just proving how ignorant both developers and players are. How little they understand and how foolish they are in their beliefs. Not much different than the real world.
To me, crowdfunding is way to get something funded that can't funded through the normal channels. It also means, not really having to make a product to get the money - just say "OOPS SORRY!' and walk away.
If the game is funded through normal channels, the developer has development milestones they have to meet or the people funding it, can pull the plug. With crowdfunding there is no checks and balance system like that. They can really just take the money and run. I will be amazed if Start Citizen ever comes out - all they seem to be doing is putting out more ships to make more money.
I would rather flush the money down the toilet.
Well, I can see how from an investors point of view (after all they do live off of the returns on their investments...) this might appear to be a Bad Thing(tm). I'll even give you that some of your points are quite true.
That having been said, the majority of projects are not created as scams. I'm more than willing to back projects that appear interesting, and might result in games that may be fun to play. After all, I can always get more money, but fun games are in rather short supply.
Not to mention that along with all of those rules and regulations that investors insist on, comes way too much control of the resulting project. With all of the horrible results we've seen for years and years now.
Your argument centers around the fact that it isn't an investment. If someone goes into a kickstarter thinking that, it is a bad thing, but the kickstarter is not at fault.
Kickstarter is not a not-for-profit organization so it is reasonable to expect a fee. You can argue the amounts, percentages, types, etc. However, the short of it is.... it is normal.
Kickstarter does what it is supposed to do. Provide a funding stream for people to start their projects. The proof of its success is in successful projects.
If you have the money to give, I see no problem. If you go into it, thinking it is an investment, you are not reading what you are doing. Not the fault of kickstarter.
I self identify as a monkey.
Op
I could not agree with you less..The whole tone and assumption of your post is that people are stupid, clueless,idiots who need to be protected from themselves (by big government and regulations ??). If people were actually as clueless and vulnerable as you suggest we would not have the incredible amounts of money they donate to charities.We would not have the large amounts people give to research cures for disease ,to the arts etc.
IMO kick starter is and important way to improve the " me too" businesses mogs have become. Kick starter is a donation...and the government politicians haven't found a way to tax and regulate it to death....yet.
and that's a good thing....not a bad thing.
Give people some credit, They are far far better decision makers than the politicians who you suggest should regulate each individuals donation decision making.
I'd say the easiest method of flushing your money is to spend it on another game that SoE backs or another crappy WoW expansion.
I won't tell you how to spend your money, and I don't need your two cents on how to spend mine.
[mod edit] For the first time in this genre we get to back the games we want. There are milestones in every drive I've seen.
Do you think if an established investor pulls out they get their money back?
Asdar
I sort of agree. While the projects I have backed are either still in development, or have resulted in worthwhile products, I'm all too aware of the risks involved.
Just look at the recent debacle of Double Fine's game Space Base DF9. They weren't getting enough cash through early access, so they slapped a patch onto it, called it a 'release version', and more or less stopped development, leaving the game without promised features, and no plans to add them. That's about as disgusting and unethical as business practices get.
There's an MMO out there (can't remember the name, one of those sci-fi indie ones) which also went through Kickstarter, where the developer has also stopped actively working on the game despite making their Kickstarter goals. Why? Because they had somebody pledge thousands of dollars to get the kickstarter funded, then returned that person's money. This was admitted by the game's creator in a public forum, yet Kickstarter took no action despite it being an obvious case of fraud. Plus if one person can do it, who says others haven't / can't?
As much as I despise government regulation, some oversight is definitely needed here. The software industry continues to get away with unethical business practices due to the somewhat intangible and mercurial nature of their products, and that needs to stop. No other company could sell products in the manner which PC software developers / publishers do and remain in business; they'd get their asses sued off.
Crowd funding can be a very positive thing though, and I really hope the industry starts regulating itself before the government has to step in.
AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!
We are born of the blood. Made men by the blood. Undone by the blood. Our eyes are yet to open. FEAR THE OLD BLOOD.
#IStandWithVic
Stop thinking with your wallet... ^^ As I stated, I can always get more money. I can't always find new good games to play. In the worst case, I'm out some money. Best case, I have a great new game to play. The reality some times ends up in the middle. But I'm good with that. Its my choice, and my risk.
I'm sorry but i'm getting really tired of the comparisons to pyramid schemes. Crowd funding, and in particular kickstarter requires extreme transparence, the consumer has ALL of the information available to make a decision of whether to part with their money. Pyramid schemes by definition are SCHEMES, they specifically give out false information to lure people in. There is literally 0 comparison.
Crowdfunding is especially important in this era of gaming because of companies like EA, Ubisoft, etc. These companies are only interested in making games that will make money hand over fist. They WILL NOT fund games that may only sell say 2 or 3 million copies. They will not fund a game that might cost 5 million to make, even if the game has a reasonably accurate estimate that it will make 15 million, because thats not enough profit for them.
Why do you think we have Mass Effect 4, Call of Duty 814, Assassin's Creed 45, Madden 2015/16/17/18/19, etc.
Without kickstarter we wouldnt have (soon to be released) Pillars of Eternity, Wasteland 2, a multitude of others games which have come out and been EXCELLENT games.
Anybody who thinks crowdfunding is a bad thing does not have the consumer's best interest in their mind.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
I could not agree with you less..The whole tone and assumption of your post is that people are stupid, clueless,idiots who need to be protected from themselves (by big government and regulations ??). If people were actually as clueless and vulnerable as you suggest we would not have the incredible amounts of money they donate to charities.We would not have the large amounts people give to research cures for disease ,to the arts etc.
IMO kick starter is and important way to improve the " me too" businesses mogs have become. Kick starter is a donation...and the government politicians haven't found a way to tax and regulate it to death....yet.
and that's a good thing....not a bad thing.
Give people some credit, They are far far better decision makers than the politicians who you suggest should regulate each individuals donation decision making.
+1 Mate, +1
Check out this article on Why Crafting Sucks
I see it as a mashup between venture capital and preorder
Preorder your going to get your product, there's no risk in that (if you like it or not is a different story). It's not an investment, it's a transaction - your purchasing a product.
Venture capital is an investment, but there's absolutely no guarantee it will pay off. High risk, high reward are the way these are typically structured.
So mix the two together:
It's a transaction, your purchasing a product, but that product has no guarantee it will actually ship. You aren't investing in the company, or product really - the only thing you will get is "possibly" the items promised in whatever backing level you choose (a transaction, or pre-purchase). I don't think, if anyone gets into a Kickstarter (or the like) and actually reads all the disclaimers, that this should come as a surprise to anyone.
That being said, I think it's a good idea to have available - but it's also one in which I choose not to participate because I don't see any products in there I want/need bad enough to pre-purchase on a prayer that they will get made.
There are a lot of good titles that have been crowdfunded. There are certainly some stinkers out there, and looking at some early access games on Steam, some devs get the money and run. But, on the whole, crowdfunding is great for the industry. There are a lot of great indie titles being crowdfunded.
Crowdfunding is bad because youre donating instead of investing.
Imagine if microsoft was kickstarted, only bill gates would be rich right now, before if a company wanted money to make a product the poeple GIVING money earned a percentage of that products future growth.
crowdfunding is a fucking scam, its devs asking for money and giving you the oppertunity to pay for the product you paid to create, its double dipping, worst then day one dlc.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
Well, if Kickstarter is a donation, then before anyone uses Kickstarter they should do research on whatever they're donating to so that they know what the goals are (like with any other donation).
And if the person/company is transparent about what they're doing with the money and actually trying to make progress on their stated goal, then there should be no issue, whether they succeed or fail.
You don't expect a return on a donation. I think investors are great and all, but the bigger the share other people have in your business, the more control they have over what you do. If you don't listen to your investors, then they pull the plug on you and you have less money.
Crowd funding is just a tool. A funding method. Nothing more, nothing less.
The problem is people, they generally make terrible "investment" decisions. Most businesses fail in their first year, and crowd funding opens up the opportunity for any joe schmoe to drop money on an idea with minimal research into the idea, the plans, organization, etc behind it.
So basically you need to think of crowd funding as charity to for-profit companies. If you give money, you should do it with the expectation that you're simply giving money away for a consolation gift.
want 7 free days of playing? Try this
http://www.swtor.com/r/ZptVnY
They aren't making you an investor. If you'd like to be an investor then go ahead and invest a couple million. Also, I'm sure that they'd be more than happy to sell you some share of the company for $20. Problem is that they could simply dilute you later on with bigger investors, to the point where you'll never see a dime, and it's much easier and much more legal than saying you'll deliver on something and not following through.
Thanks, but I'll just take my game and bonuses that they gave me.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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I think part of the problem is that what was intended as a "last chance" vehicle for funding (crowdfunding, which is really a mutation of its predecessor 'crowdsourcing') has become the "go to" method for many corporations. Some of these corporations may have relatively benign intentions but little sense (see: Yogscast Adventures). Others, others are literally preying on those with more money than sense by employing psychological tricks and clever marketing, exploiting the very worst parts of the human psyche as the authors of this video claim some F2P games do. It's the exact same mentality.
Like any technology, crowdfunding is in itself neither good or bad. It is a double edged sword. The plus side is that some good projects are funded that may not have been otherwise, and more quickly. The down side is that some people are getting paid that probably shouldn't be.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
Really? The kickstarters I've backed I get the product for free when released, I don't have to pay again.
Crowd funding has delivered some of my favourite games of recent times (Banner Saga, Wasteland 2, and now E: D), as well as some good ones (Shadowrun, Broken Sword), so I have to say that I love crowdfunding for games. None of these would have ever been made without CF.
This isn't even touching on how it works for me as a tabletop gamer.
So, yeah, carry on trying to rip it down, it's easy to focus on the negative in all things, but I and others obviously find a lot of worth in Kickstarter and others.
They have helped revive genres declared 'dead' by AAA devs simply because they didn't deliver as much cold profit as MoH or whatever. They have helped, alongside other elements like Steam, fertilise gaming at it's grassroots. For that I can cheer them on, despite the stumbles of some.
Now... If I can just get SOE to reform Verant and them make a KS for Everquest Classic....
Just thought I'd make that a little more clear. If you think that standing by or refusing to contribute to crowdfunding campaigns is somehow helping, then you're wrong. I've said it before and I'll say it again, until I'm blue in the face, the only message you're sending by not supporting crowd-funded games is that there is no market for those games. If you think that AAA publishers aren't watching crowd-funding campaigns with lots of interest, then you're sorely mistaken. Actually, it's more effective than a forum post, or a strongly-worded email, or a petition because it puts your money where your mouth is.
You want a sandbox? Then get up off your arse and crack that wallet for these games like Shards Online that want to do something truly innovative. I hear plenty of talk on here about "When are AAA publishers going to listen and make a sandbox game?" Then something like Shards comes along and are sitting at less than 500 people who have backed it. Yup! 10-4, message received. Over and out!!! Granted, it's not indicative of the true market size or potential, but I'm sure they have pretty good metrics of previous campaigns and what they ended up converting into once they released. Either way, the whole point is that they know immediately that the size of the market is small, and they simply don't want to spend the money, themselves, to get there.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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Which one is that? All you have to pay later on DCLs or other stuff, how about Star Citizen 61 millions and still begging for more money.
want 7 free days of playing? Try this
http://www.swtor.com/r/ZptVnY
I believe in Crowding Funding for the genuine heartbreaking stories like this
http://globalnews.ca/video/1670106/father-singing-blackbird-to-dying-son-named-lennon-goes-viral
For a person to have to go through that and be left with a $58000 hospital bill.
A successful Crowdfunding like this gives me a little more optimism for our creed.
http://www.youcaring.com/memorial-fundraiser/ashley-picco-memorial-fund/260229
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee