Originally posted by cheyane Isn't the griefer a subset of the PvPer ?
If we believe them... griefers are a "rare" anomaly. Almost like all these supposed people who WANT OWPvP. The numbers speak for themselves there.
You know that 1 bully can annoy 100 people and more. And they will probably do it too.
So it's not because 100 people have been bullied that there are 100 bullies. In other words, you are wrong.
Now what is wrong with what we've seen in terms of OWPvP is that 1 over geared bully can annoy 100 players and more. But that's a problem of implementation. Again, OWPvP isn't a bad concept in itself, we're just seeing bad implementations of it.
Having an instanced area where PvP happens ruins the "world" feel and just makes the game feel like a game. Nothing like playing Skyrim or Oblivion that managed to create the feel of a world that was alive even with just NPCs.
They really missed a trick not making this game the same as Oblivion/skyrim but just MMO. People could have really taken cities and towns and built stuff.
As it is it just feels like an artificial world and the lore just does not fit it.
Such a shame.
I couldn't disagree more, they actually wanted their game to succeed. Archage, Darkfall, mortal online are all out there failing miserably. Why the risk? To many people want to grief, and it scares away the player base.
The problem with the RvR in ESO is it just doesn't mean enough.
I hope you find that game you're looking for!
but yet WoW has 10 million subscribers with Wpvp everywhere.
Try finding a server that still has extensive open world pvp in WoW since the looking for a group tools were implemented . While its not impossible its very difficult I tried dozens before I found one on the EU servers ( Outland ) I am not aware of any others .
Originally posted by Horusra PvE'ers outnumber PvP'ers. So why cater to the smaller group?
Why not cater to everyone ? You do know it is possible to have separate pvp and pve servers don't you ?
Its also possible to have open world pvp and pve on one server. The pvp crowd can set their status to pvp. The pve crowd can opt to not set their status to pvp.
Luckily, the best games coming out will have open world pvp like H1Z1, or the Repopulation. The carebears can just not play them.
Played:SWG(pre NGE/CU sucked)Yep its true, anyone who quit SWG because of the NGE/CU missed out on a much better combat system. DCUO, Fallen Earth, STO, The Secret World. Battlefield series. Planetside 2. Still playing SWG.
Now what is wrong with what we've seen in terms of OWPvP is that 1 over geared bully can annoy 100 players and more. But that's a problem of implementation.
In post you prove that I am NOT wrong but that you're supporting something which doesn't exist. (I personally support Utopia but am not naive enough to think it'll ever exist.. most certainly not in our lifetime)
By your statement, there is nothing wrong with OWPvP. According to you the problem is the implementation. And yet, that by the very argument shows EXACTLY what is wrong with OWPvP. 1 person CAN in fact screw up 100 people with ZERO repercussions.
Which is why, if you read the REST of the commentary, most of us immediately ignore anything with OWPvP.
You should go invent the best OWPvP game with a good implementation. If it's good, I'm sure some people will come.
I'm just saying that you'll likely only ever attract a very small segment of the populace.
Originally posted by Horusra PvE'ers outnumber PvP'ers. So why cater to the smaller group?
Why not cater to everyone ? You do know it is possible to have separate pvp and pve servers don't you ?
Its also possible to have open world pvp and pve on one server. The pvp crowd can set their status to pvp. The pve crowd can opt to not set their status to pvp.
Luckily, the best games coming out will have open world pvp like H1Z1, or the Repopulation. The carebears can just not play them.
If by 'carebears' you mean Pve players, then be careful what you wish for, you might just kill your own game.
Does WoW really have openworld PvP everywhere. Have never seen anyone engaging in that aside from Crossroads ages ago . Does anyone move from the cities besides clicking LFD? I , on my last sojourn in WoW went about the world doing quests and saw absolutely no one. It may have changed now that there is a new expansion but in reality even if you can PvP anywhere but if there is hardly any openworld PvP in reality how can one use WoW as an example of successful open world PvP ?
I use the BGs for PvP in WoW and I loved that. I recall those Hillsbrad Foothill fights with nostalgia now. Never knew it would just fade away like that. God the lag there was also memorable. It was fun though it had a kind of spontaneity that was charming.
Warhammer had open world PvP and it was fun to do them in those lakes of PvP but the bgs were also fun but that game lacked soul I left very soon never even maxed a character out but now I look back may be I should have supported that game more.
Originally posted by Horusra PvE'ers outnumber PvP'ers. So why cater to the smaller group?
Why not cater to everyone ? You do know it is possible to have separate pvp and pve servers don't you ?
Its also possible to have open world pvp and pve on one server. The pvp crowd can set their status to pvp. The pve crowd can opt to not set their status to pvp.
Luckily, the best games coming out will have open world pvp like H1Z1, or the Repopulation. The carebears can just not play them.
its always funny when PVPers use the term carebear, then i turn around and play most PVP games and the only time PVPers attack is when they have a heavy advantage. whether its completely outgearing the enemy, having a higher level, bring a bigger group or simply waiting till the person they are going to attack is engaged by mobs.
I remember many times in archeage (and many other PVP servers in other MMORPGs) questing in a zone and having someone on the enemy faction who was equal level bypass me only to attack a character on my faction that was like 5-7 levels lower.
and yet PVE'rs are carebears huh? I mean hey i guess congrats you killed someone that had no chance against you ... the winner is you!
The biggest issue with world PvP is that no game has done it right yet. There is an easy way to prevent high level characters from griefing lower level characters, make it so that you can always PvP your level or higher but not initiate PvP on characters below your level. Bam, griefing issue fixed.
As I see it, the only real issue with world PvP is higher level characters repeatedly killing lower level characters. Other than that there is nothing wrong with it.
Now what is wrong with what we've seen in terms of OWPvP is that 1 over geared bully can annoy 100 players and more. But that's a problem of implementation.
In post you prove that I am NOT wrong but that you're supporting something which doesn't exist. (I personally support Utopia but am not naive enough to think it'll ever exist.. most certainly not in our lifetime)
Of course this good implementation of OWPvP doesn't exist yet.
Any new project by definition doesn't exist before it is created. Are you suggesting that we should only stick to "known recipes" and that we only base future games on existing formulas? It's the usual debate of entrepreneurs vs conservatives.
By your statement, there is nothing wrong with OWPvP. According to you the problem is the implementation. And yet, that by the very argument shows EXACTLY what is wrong with OWPvP. 1 person CAN in fact screw up 100 people with ZERO repercussions.
Again you are talking about current implementations of OWPvP. You probably don't understand what I'm saying, but more curiously you don't seem to understand that the fact that 1 person can screw 100 people is not inherently part of the OWPvP design (because it is a concept, and that a concept can have many implementations, rules, etc.).
Given the number of terrible MMO-PvE games, and by that logic, PvE is wrong as well. Or you can accept that it's just that some implementations of PvE are bad. It doesn't mean that the concept of PvE as a whole is bad. It's the same of OWPvP.
I can't be arsed explaining to you more than that, it's the same crap every time with the PvE crowd anyway.
You should go invent the best OWPvP game with a good implementation. If it's good, I'm sure some people will come.
Sure I will let you know next week when I'm finished alright? Can you please post your phone number here so that I can call you when it's done?
I'm just saying that you'll likely only ever attract a very small segment of the populace.
Well, gaming is niche. MMOs are niche. You said it yourself in a previous post, there is a more than decent proportion of people interested in PvP vs PvE. So, no it's not a "very small" segment of the MMORPG population.
The biggest issue with world PvP is that no game has done it right yet. There is an easy way to prevent high level characters from griefing lower level characters, make it so that you can always PvP your level or higher but not initiate PvP on characters below your level. Bam, griefing issue fixed.
As I see it, the only real issue with world PvP is higher level characters repeatedly killing lower level characters. Other than that there is nothing wrong with it.
actually ive seen that get suggested before and PVPers flame it to hell and back. they want the ability to kill anyone at anytime, any mechanics that hinder that ability makes it a carebear game according to PVPers.
If you look at Archeage, PvP players will work very hard to force their play style on people who don't want to do it. Basically, in Open World PvP MMOs, hell is other people.
Arenas, battlegrounds, or separate areas like Cyrodil work better for allowing a variety of play styles, because they are the equivalent of sporting contests and warfare, which can be segregated from "ordinary life" in ways that feel natural.
If you look at Archeage, PvP players will work very hard to force their play style on people who don't want to do it. Basically, in Open World PvP MMOs, hell is other people.
Arenas, battlegrounds, or separate areas like Cyrodil work better for allowing a variety of play styles, because they are the equivalent of sporting contests and warfare, which can be segregated from "ordinary life" in ways that feel natural.
Best example for this is DaoC, after years of rebelling players, they decided to give them what they wanted, FFA PvP servers... And it exploded in their face, everyone joined them at release, but after a few days the majorrity of the PvP community was playing the regular servers again... Random killing was not really fun for most people....
my opinion, PvE works great as an addition to a PvP zone...
PvP zucks when added to a PvE zone...
i love all kinds of PvP, PvP zones with mixed in PvP like in Daoc or ESO, instanced PvP like in wows and GW2s battleground, arenas to proove you are the toughest of them all... There is only one thing i hate about PvP, and thats when i just want to do some PvE and there are fools ganking on me and my friends...
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Originally posted by Horusra PvE'ers outnumber PvP'ers. So why cater to the smaller group?
Why not cater to everyone ? You do know it is possible to have separate pvp and pve servers don't you ?
Its also possible to have open world pvp and pve on one server. The pvp crowd can set their status to pvp. The pve crowd can opt to not set their status to pvp.
Luckily, the best games coming out will have open world pvp like H1Z1, or the Repopulation. The carebears can just not play them.
No actually, its not. Because the pvp will ruin the fun for the pve'rs if it's open world. Think about it. It's not fair or right to force your style of game play on everyone. Yes, it is that simple.
From level 10 you can litterally level from 10-VR14 in Cyrodiil. I level from 30-50 there, gaining 1 level per 1-2 hours (2-3 hours starting at lvl 40). That's basically an open-world experience... watching your back for real player enemies... persistant sieges going on at all times... lots of randomness and open-ended possibilities.
The Justice System, though is genius. The reason I say this is because the 3 alliances are supposed to be against each other and not so much making self-inflicted wounds. The issue with many open-world games is people just kill indescriminately in an effort to not be killed themselves. The Justice system does a better job (the best so far) at forcing moral codes that'd be expected in a peaceful alliance.
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I'm really tired of people touting "PvP" vs "PvE"... a real open-world game doesn't do this. It's just an immersive world that allows freedom of choice that fits in with the game's lore. PvP vs PvE...who cares. It's all part of the immersion. If people are concerned that "you're forcing me to play one way" then you're thinking about it the wrong way. The game is bound by its rules play how you want within that bounding box, or don't play it.
If you look at Archeage, PvP players will work very hard to force their play style on people who don't want to do it. Basically, in Open World PvP MMOs, hell is other people.
Arenas, battlegrounds, or separate areas like Cyrodil work better for allowing a variety of play styles, because they are the equivalent of sporting contests and warfare, which can be segregated from "ordinary life" in ways that feel natural.
Best example for this is DaoC, after years of rebelling players, they decided to give them what they wanted, FFA PvP servers... And it exploded in their face, everyone joined them at release, but after a few days the majorrity of the PvP community was playing the regular servers again... Random killing was not really fun for most people....
my opinion, PvE works great as an addition to a PvP zone...
PvP zucks when added to a PvE zone...
i love all kinds of PvP, PvP zones with mixed in PvP like in Daoc or ESO, instanced PvP like in wows and GW2s battleground, arenas to proove you are the toughest of them all... There is only one thing i hate about PvP, and thats when i just want to do some PvE and there are fools ganking on me and my friends...
This is not correct.
Any Doac vet would tell you that the PvP servers were the most populated ones.
If you look at Archeage, PvP players will work very hard to force their play style on people who don't want to do it. Basically, in Open World PvP MMOs, hell is other people.
Arenas, battlegrounds, or separate areas like Cyrodil work better for allowing a variety of play styles, because they are the equivalent of sporting contests and warfare, which can be segregated from "ordinary life" in ways that feel natural.
Best example for this is DaoC, after years of rebelling players, they decided to give them what they wanted, FFA PvP servers... And it exploded in their face, everyone joined them at release, but after a few days the majorrity of the PvP community was playing the regular servers again... Random killing was not really fun for most people....
my opinion, PvE works great as an addition to a PvP zone...
PvP zucks when added to a PvE zone...
i love all kinds of PvP, PvP zones with mixed in PvP like in Daoc or ESO, instanced PvP like in wows and GW2s battleground, arenas to proove you are the toughest of them all... There is only one thing i hate about PvP, and thats when i just want to do some PvE and there are fools ganking on me and my friends...
This is not correct.
Any Doac vet would tell you that the PvP servers were the most populated ones.
Nice try....
Mordred (PvP) was not the most populated server.
Guinevere and Percival (RolePlay) were
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT Playing: Skyrim Following: The Repopulation I want a Virtual World, not just a Game. ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
If you look at Archeage, PvP players will work very hard to force their play style on people who don't want to do it. Basically, in Open World PvP MMOs, hell is other people.
Arenas, battlegrounds, or separate areas like Cyrodil work better for allowing a variety of play styles, because they are the equivalent of sporting contests and warfare, which can be segregated from "ordinary life" in ways that feel natural.
Best example for this is DaoC, after years of rebelling players, they decided to give them what they wanted, FFA PvP servers... And it exploded in their face, everyone joined them at release, but after a few days the majorrity of the PvP community was playing the regular servers again... Random killing was not really fun for most people....
my opinion, PvE works great as an addition to a PvP zone...
PvP zucks when added to a PvE zone...
i love all kinds of PvP, PvP zones with mixed in PvP like in Daoc or ESO, instanced PvP like in wows and GW2s battleground, arenas to proove you are the toughest of them all... There is only one thing i hate about PvP, and thats when i just want to do some PvE and there are fools ganking on me and my friends...
This is not correct.
Any Doac vet would tell you that the PvP servers were the most populated ones.
Nice try....
Yeah right... that's why there were only ever 2 FFA PvP servers, with Andred closing couple of years ago (2004) and Mordred now also a distant past (closed 2013, but dead long before that), while Ywain is still around (normal server / blue server).
If you look at Archeage, PvP players will work very hard to force their play style on people who don't want to do it. Basically, in Open World PvP MMOs, hell is other people.
Arenas, battlegrounds, or separate areas like Cyrodil work better for allowing a variety of play styles, because they are the equivalent of sporting contests and warfare, which can be segregated from "ordinary life" in ways that feel natural.
Best example for this is DaoC, after years of rebelling players, they decided to give them what they wanted, FFA PvP servers... And it exploded in their face, everyone joined them at release, but after a few days the majorrity of the PvP community was playing the regular servers again... Random killing was not really fun for most people....
my opinion, PvE works great as an addition to a PvP zone...
PvP zucks when added to a PvE zone...
i love all kinds of PvP, PvP zones with mixed in PvP like in Daoc or ESO, instanced PvP like in wows and GW2s battleground, arenas to proove you are the toughest of them all... There is only one thing i hate about PvP, and thats when i just want to do some PvE and there are fools ganking on me and my friends...
This is not correct.
Any Doac vet would tell you that the PvP servers were the most populated ones.
Nice try....
Yeah right... that's why there were only ever 2 FFA PvP servers, with Andred closing couple of years ago (2004) and Mordred now also a distant past (closed 2013, but dead long before that), while Ywain is still around (normal server / blue server).
Thank you for the support... As i said the hightide of the FFA PvP servers was very short...
And still i am wondering, why are we discussing what this game could have been..... We should be discussing what this game can be in the future, and i dont think there is any room for FFa pvp in that.... However with the justice system comming up, they might be on to something the way they want to implement it..
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Open world PVP relies too much on the players themselves creating an interesting, competitive and fun PVP environment and MMO after MMO has shown over and over again that players can't be relied upon to do anything in those environments other than behave like griefer asshats preying on questers 20 levels below them. Large scale fun PVP fights are a rarity.
A huge self-contained, consensual PVP zone like ESO has that has room for both small scale and large scale is by far the best PVP that can be had in MMOs.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
If you look at Archeage, PvP players will work very hard to force their play style on people who don't want to do it. Basically, in Open World PvP MMOs, hell is other people.
Arenas, battlegrounds, or separate areas like Cyrodil work better for allowing a variety of play styles, because they are the equivalent of sporting contests and warfare, which can be segregated from "ordinary life" in ways that feel natural.
Best example for this is DaoC, after years of rebelling players, they decided to give them what they wanted, FFA PvP servers... And it exploded in their face, everyone joined them at release, but after a few days the majorrity of the PvP community was playing the regular servers again... Random killing was not really fun for most people....
my opinion, PvE works great as an addition to a PvP zone...
PvP zucks when added to a PvE zone...
i love all kinds of PvP, PvP zones with mixed in PvP like in Daoc or ESO, instanced PvP like in wows and GW2s battleground, arenas to proove you are the toughest of them all... There is only one thing i hate about PvP, and thats when i just want to do some PvE and there are fools ganking on me and my friends...
This is not correct.
Any Doac vet would tell you that the PvP servers were the most populated ones.
Nice try....
Yeah right... that's why there were only ever 2 FFA PvP servers, with Andred closing couple of years ago (2004) and Mordred now also a distant past (closed 2013, but dead long before that), while Ywain is still around (normal server / blue server).
Thank you for the support... As i said the hightide of the FFA PvP servers was very short...
And still i am wondering, why are we discussing what this game could have been..... We should be discussing what this game can be in the future, and i dont think there is any room for FFa pvp in that.... However with the justice system comming up, they might be on to something the way they want to implement it..
I just want to further support your highlighted above. I am a DAoC veteran, played Hibernia on Guinevere. The FFA PvP servers were total flash in the pan examples as to why Open World FFA PvP doesn't work. Honestly, the only game I've ever seen this work well was Asheron's Call Darktide. That was a long time ago, and the population of AC never was extremely large.
FFA can work in small numbers, which is probably why there are so many indie games that use ffa pvp concepts as the near sole purpose of the game.
Any Doac vet would tell you that the PvP servers were the most populated ones.
Nice try....
Yeah right... that's why there were only ever 2 FFA PvP servers, with Andred closing couple of years ago (2004) and Mordred now also a distant past (closed 2013, but dead long before that), while Ywain is still around (normal server / blue server).
I'm actually talking about the period of time before the mass exile from DoaC took place (before TOA and WoW). The PvP servers were thriving but the problem was Mythic "tacked" FFA PvP onto game that was only designed for battlegrounds. So there was nothing to do after 50 and when new players tried to come to the server they couldn't compete because the power gap was too huge between the established players. That was the only real problem aside from people leaving the game in general.
The people that didn't leave to go play WoW returned to their old servers to take part in the new content that was designed for how the game was originally meant to be played. It had nothing to do with FFA PvP, it had everything to do with implementation.
The blue "Ywain" servers didn't come into effect some many years later but you would of had to actually play the game to know that Docmandu...
Best example for this is DaoC, after years of rebelling players, they decided to give them what they wanted, FFA PvP servers... And it exploded in their face, everyone joined them at release, but after a few days the majorrity of the PvP community was playing the regular servers again... - Lord.Bachus
Saying FFA PvP doesn't work and pointing your finger at some PvP servers that were tacked on is literally the worst example. The PvP servers weren't just a flash in the pan, they did great until people started leaving the game.
Comments
You know that 1 bully can annoy 100 people and more. And they will probably do it too.
So it's not because 100 people have been bullied that there are 100 bullies. In other words, you are wrong.
Now what is wrong with what we've seen in terms of OWPvP is that 1 over geared bully can annoy 100 players and more. But that's a problem of implementation. Again, OWPvP isn't a bad concept in itself, we're just seeing bad implementations of it.
"This should have been open world PvP"
But luckily sanity prevailed, and it is not...![image](http://images.mmorpg.com/images/emoticons/emt_biggrin.gif)
Try finding a server that still has extensive open world pvp in WoW since the looking for a group tools were implemented . While its not impossible its very difficult I tried dozens before I found one on the EU servers ( Outland ) I am not aware of any others .
Why not cater to everyone ? You do know it is possible to have separate pvp and pve servers don't you ?
Its also possible to have open world pvp and pve on one server. The pvp crowd can set their status to pvp. The pve crowd can opt to not set their status to pvp.
Luckily, the best games coming out will have open world pvp like H1Z1, or the Repopulation. The carebears can just not play them.
Played:SWG(pre NGE/CU sucked)Yep its true, anyone who quit SWG because of the NGE/CU missed out on a much better combat system. DCUO, Fallen Earth, STO, The Secret World. Battlefield series. Planetside 2. Still playing SWG.
In post you prove that I am NOT wrong but that you're supporting something which doesn't exist. (I personally support Utopia but am not naive enough to think it'll ever exist.. most certainly not in our lifetime)
By your statement, there is nothing wrong with OWPvP. According to you the problem is the implementation. And yet, that by the very argument shows EXACTLY what is wrong with OWPvP. 1 person CAN in fact screw up 100 people with ZERO repercussions.
Which is why, if you read the REST of the commentary, most of us immediately ignore anything with OWPvP.
You should go invent the best OWPvP game with a good implementation. If it's good, I'm sure some people will come.
I'm just saying that you'll likely only ever attract a very small segment of the populace.
If by 'carebears' you mean Pve players, then be careful what you wish for, you might just kill your own game.![image](http://images.mmorpg.com/images/emoticons/emt_devil1.gif)
Does WoW really have openworld PvP everywhere. Have never seen anyone engaging in that aside from Crossroads ages ago . Does anyone move from the cities besides clicking LFD? I , on my last sojourn in WoW went about the world doing quests and saw absolutely no one. It may have changed now that there is a new expansion but in reality even if you can PvP anywhere but if there is hardly any openworld PvP in reality how can one use WoW as an example of successful open world PvP ?
I use the BGs for PvP in WoW and I loved that. I recall those Hillsbrad Foothill fights with nostalgia now. Never knew it would just fade away like that. God the lag there was also memorable. It was fun though it had a kind of spontaneity that was charming.
Warhammer had open world PvP and it was fun to do them in those lakes of PvP but the bgs were also fun but that game lacked soul I left very soon never even maxed a character out but now I look back may be I should have supported that game more.
its always funny when PVPers use the term carebear, then i turn around and play most PVP games and the only time PVPers attack is when they have a heavy advantage. whether its completely outgearing the enemy, having a higher level, bring a bigger group or simply waiting till the person they are going to attack is engaged by mobs.
I remember many times in archeage (and many other PVP servers in other MMORPGs) questing in a zone and having someone on the enemy faction who was equal level bypass me only to attack a character on my faction that was like 5-7 levels lower.
and yet PVE'rs are carebears huh? I mean hey i guess congrats you killed someone that had no chance against you ... the winner is you!
The biggest issue with world PvP is that no game has done it right yet. There is an easy way to prevent high level characters from griefing lower level characters, make it so that you can always PvP your level or higher but not initiate PvP on characters below your level. Bam, griefing issue fixed.
As I see it, the only real issue with world PvP is higher level characters repeatedly killing lower level characters. Other than that there is nothing wrong with it.
mmorpg junkie since 1999
Of course this good implementation of OWPvP doesn't exist yet.
Any new project by definition doesn't exist before it is created. Are you suggesting that we should only stick to "known recipes" and that we only base future games on existing formulas? It's the usual debate of entrepreneurs vs conservatives.
Again you are talking about current implementations of OWPvP. You probably don't understand what I'm saying, but more curiously you don't seem to understand that the fact that 1 person can screw 100 people is not inherently part of the OWPvP design (because it is a concept, and that a concept can have many implementations, rules, etc.).
Given the number of terrible MMO-PvE games, and by that logic, PvE is wrong as well. Or you can accept that it's just that some implementations of PvE are bad. It doesn't mean that the concept of PvE as a whole is bad. It's the same of OWPvP.
I can't be arsed explaining to you more than that, it's the same crap every time with the PvE crowd anyway.
Sure I will let you know next week when I'm finished alright? Can you please post your phone number here so that I can call you when it's done?
Well, gaming is niche. MMOs are niche. You said it yourself in a previous post, there is a more than decent proportion of people interested in PvP vs PvE. So, no it's not a "very small" segment of the MMORPG population.
actually ive seen that get suggested before and PVPers flame it to hell and back. they want the ability to kill anyone at anytime, any mechanics that hinder that ability makes it a carebear game according to PVPers.
If you look at Archeage, PvP players will work very hard to force their play style on people who don't want to do it. Basically, in Open World PvP MMOs, hell is other people.
Arenas, battlegrounds, or separate areas like Cyrodil work better for allowing a variety of play styles, because they are the equivalent of sporting contests and warfare, which can be segregated from "ordinary life" in ways that feel natural.
Best example for this is DaoC, after years of rebelling players, they decided to give them what they wanted, FFA PvP servers... And it exploded in their face, everyone joined them at release, but after a few days the majorrity of the PvP community was playing the regular servers again... Random killing was not really fun for most people....
my opinion, PvE works great as an addition to a PvP zone...
PvP zucks when added to a PvE zone...
i love all kinds of PvP, PvP zones with mixed in PvP like in Daoc or ESO, instanced PvP like in wows and GW2s battleground, arenas to proove you are the toughest of them all... There is only one thing i hate about PvP, and thats when i just want to do some PvE and there are fools ganking on me and my friends...
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
No actually, its not. Because the pvp will ruin the fun for the pve'rs if it's open world. Think about it. It's not fair or right to force your style of game play on everyone. Yes, it is that simple.
@OP
From level 10 you can litterally level from 10-VR14 in Cyrodiil. I level from 30-50 there, gaining 1 level per 1-2 hours (2-3 hours starting at lvl 40). That's basically an open-world experience... watching your back for real player enemies... persistant sieges going on at all times... lots of randomness and open-ended possibilities.
The Justice System, though is genius. The reason I say this is because the 3 alliances are supposed to be against each other and not so much making self-inflicted wounds. The issue with many open-world games is people just kill indescriminately in an effort to not be killed themselves. The Justice system does a better job (the best so far) at forcing moral codes that'd be expected in a peaceful alliance.
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I'm really tired of people touting "PvP" vs "PvE"... a real open-world game doesn't do this. It's just an immersive world that allows freedom of choice that fits in with the game's lore. PvP vs PvE...who cares. It's all part of the immersion. If people are concerned that "you're forcing me to play one way" then you're thinking about it the wrong way. The game is bound by its rules play how you want within that bounding box, or don't play it.
This is not correct.
Any Doac vet would tell you that the PvP servers were the most populated ones.
Nice try....
Mordred (PvP) was not the most populated server.
Guinevere and Percival (RolePlay) were
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
Playing: Skyrim
Following: The Repopulation
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ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
Yeah right... that's why there were only ever 2 FFA PvP servers, with Andred closing couple of years ago (2004) and Mordred now also a distant past (closed 2013, but dead long before that), while Ywain is still around (normal server / blue server).
Thank you for the support... As i said the hightide of the FFA PvP servers was very short...
And still i am wondering, why are we discussing what this game could have been..... We should be discussing what this game can be in the future, and i dont think there is any room for FFa pvp in that.... However with the justice system comming up, they might be on to something the way they want to implement it..
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Open world PVP relies too much on the players themselves creating an interesting, competitive and fun PVP environment and MMO after MMO has shown over and over again that players can't be relied upon to do anything in those environments other than behave like griefer asshats preying on questers 20 levels below them. Large scale fun PVP fights are a rarity.
A huge self-contained, consensual PVP zone like ESO has that has room for both small scale and large scale is by far the best PVP that can be had in MMOs.
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I just want to further support your highlighted above. I am a DAoC veteran, played Hibernia on Guinevere. The FFA PvP servers were total flash in the pan examples as to why Open World FFA PvP doesn't work. Honestly, the only game I've ever seen this work well was Asheron's Call Darktide. That was a long time ago, and the population of AC never was extremely large.
FFA can work in small numbers, which is probably why there are so many indie games that use ffa pvp concepts as the near sole purpose of the game.
I'm actually talking about the period of time before the mass exile from DoaC took place (before TOA and WoW). The PvP servers were thriving but the problem was Mythic "tacked" FFA PvP onto game that was only designed for battlegrounds. So there was nothing to do after 50 and when new players tried to come to the server they couldn't compete because the power gap was too huge between the established players. That was the only real problem aside from people leaving the game in general.
The people that didn't leave to go play WoW returned to their old servers to take part in the new content that was designed for how the game was originally meant to be played. It had nothing to do with FFA PvP, it had everything to do with implementation.
The blue "Ywain" servers didn't come into effect some many years later but you would of had to actually play the game to know that Docmandu...
Best example for this is DaoC, after years of rebelling players, they decided to give them what they wanted, FFA PvP servers... And it exploded in their face, everyone joined them at release, but after a few days the majorrity of the PvP community was playing the regular servers again... - Lord.Bachus
Saying FFA PvP doesn't work and pointing your finger at some PvP servers that were tacked on is literally the worst example. The PvP servers weren't just a flash in the pan, they did great until people started leaving the game.