I don't think you can. You were forced into a server community with games like EQ because everything pretty much required a group to get completed. In todays market everyone wants WoW WoLTK where you can solo everything but instanced raids, or hardmodes and you never have to really interact with another player..
this leads to problems with reputation meaning nothing, games like EQ had black lists in zones where people who were asshats never got groups, the majority of current mmo players can't even TRY a game without bitching that it isn't some linear, carebear, themepark. Add a little bit of difficulty or pvp and their heads explode before they even give it a chance. Too much entitlement and not enough guts.
The people that are trying to make the world worse never take a day off , why should I. Light up the darkness Bob Marley
There was grouping in EQ because if was fu**ing 1999 and everything was new.
Another thread with nothing but "EQ, SWG, blah, blah, blah"
Move on ffs
no, there was grouping in EQ because you couldn't solo (Later on soloing became easier if you were either quad kiting wiz/druid or a necro but majority of other classes couldn't). Someone in this thread has obviously never played EQ during its hayday, ill guess you weren't born yet?
The people that are trying to make the world worse never take a day off , why should I. Light up the darkness Bob Marley
Firstly i do not believe the old way of doing this that EQ took making you so weak you needed to group for everything and levelling took months to years.
It was annoying because you could end up waiting for hours and get nowhere .
I recall my rogue could not even solo the lowest possible mob for experience so if i did not find a group thats it for the night and it happened a lot.
I think SWG had the right approach to making a community.
Most content was soloable .Without buffs a lot was still soloable.
However,buffs made you go to a cantina or a city and get buffed.It took 10-15 minutes but it made cities vibrant and people interacted.
Also weapons and armor decayed and you needed food(for buff reason) which meant you shopped around.
Traders made cities look attractive and you would go there .
And yes best weapon meant actually physically interacting with a weaponsmith who custom build a weapon most times.
Then you find a slicer either thru tells or yelling for one to slice the weapon,more interaction.
The limitation to 1 character per server ensured the fact that unless you spent on 4-5 accounts you regularly interacted with people
1) Much LARGER Zones that cover a wider range of levels.
When you first enter a zone, you should be able to take ALL the quest. That way when you see someone doing something you can play with them ( no two quest hubs ).
Most MMOs already have quest sharing. That aside, you're presenting a zone with a wider level range and everyone receiving all the quests for the zone so that everyone can group easily. That's two conflicting designs.
2) Slow leveling.
More people in your level range to make friends with. Gaining levels every hour causes friends to out level each other. This would greatly help Guilds to play together too.
I'm not following the connection you're making here. Can you explain this one a bit more?
4) Make the game harder with some easy content for when you feel like soloing.
5) No Looking for Dungeon or cross realm finders.
Yes, encourage players to use social panels, give a good tutorial about this subject. and developer focuse on making it work.
MMOs are built for how people want to play them and how they choose to interact. Tutorials won't change how people function, and most people today don't want to ask around for groups.This is why we have the features we have today.
6) No story lines and videos.
Were talking about mmos not single player games, if you like 10 min videos then play off line games.
I think you're tight that storylines and videos can have an impact on the level of interaction, even the ability to interact, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to say they don't belong in MMOs at all. You have a good point when it comes to your subjectline question but you're starting to drift into 'what an MMO should be' which is bad grounds to tread.
7) Seamless worlds.
This helps.
Can you explain how?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Bladestrom yup its common sense, community gaming is the reason for an MMO's existance therefore you should expect it incentivise and reward grouping, otherwise its a confused poorly designed single player game that has to be compromised by other peoples goals.
"Incentivizing" grouping is far different from "Forcing" grouping. One helps a player desire to group. The other MAKES a player group, whether they want to or not.
I do agree that "community gaming" should be expected from an MMO. However, there are MANY ways to socialize with other players beside "just grouping" (or PvP).
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Firstly i do not believe the old way of doing this that EQ took making you so weak you needed to group for everything and levelling took months to years. Agreed, that is one of the issues EQ had that could of been fixed but wasn't.. grrrr
It was annoying because you could end up waiting for hours and get nowhere . +1
I recall my rogue could not even solo the lowest possible mob for experience so if i did not find a group thats it for the night and it happened a lot. Yes, rogues were one of a few that were totally screwed if you couldn't find a group to join.. grrrr
I think SWG had the right approach to making a community. except that damn macrobots that infected it
Most content was soloable .Without buffs a lot was still soloable. +1
However,buffs made you go to a cantina or a city and get buffed.It took 10-15 minutes but it made cities vibrant and people interacted. +1 Player hubs need a purpose other then auction, mail and waiting for dungeon gueues
Also weapons and armor decayed and you needed food(for buff reason) which meant you shopped around. +1
Traders made cities look attractive and you would go there . Agreed, games with a robust meaningful economy are better situated in building communities
And yes best weapon meant actually physically interacting with a weaponsmith who custom build a weapon most times.
Then you find a slicer either thru tells or yelling for one to slice the weapon,more interaction.
The limitation to 1 character per server ensured the fact that unless you spent on 4-5 accounts you regularly interacted with people
It's frustrating when you see glaring issues with simple solutions that never get addressed.. I have to wonder WTF are the devs doing? Sleeping? I pretty much gave up on playing MMO's because they feel like hodge podge make it up as you go along whack a mole arcade games with no direction whatsoever.. NONE.. And to get a devs to answer the REAL important questions is like talking to a politician.. GRRRRRRR.You never get a straight honest answer
Originally posted by immodium However all those activities you listed that happen in the real world, the human I'm interacting with could easily be replaced by a machine. I don't have to interact at all with another human when I go shopping or go to the cinema. I can use machines.
That's your choice, you can join a social MMO with a strong community and never talk to anyone.However, the environment a train creates is far more condicive for social interacton than sitting on your car alone.That doesn't mean it will happen, but there is nothing wrong with games that create environments that bring about socialising, and forced grouping is one of those tools an MMO can use to promote socialising, it doesn't deserve a negative connotation.
Do you have "party trains and buses" in your town? Sure sounds like it, to me. The buses (no trains in my town) are quiet, UN-social affairs. The only talk is someone asking for a transfer slip from the bus driver. The rest? Reading, cell phone usage, and basically trying their best to shut out all the other humans sharing the ride.
In my experience, mass transit is one of the most "unsocial" activities there is.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Enbysra See, these are the debates I love to watch while lurking. Everyone takes a side and "attack attack attack!" Is it just me or does anyone else realize we are talking MMORPGs? MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE ROLEPLAYING GAMES. This means you can have both, for each and every debate issue you are seeing on this thread and on every single other thread... and every damn shade of grey between. Ah, I forgot, such a concept takes the educated to make such decisions. You are right, i am wrong... we should have arenas irl and kill each other off until everyone remaining can agree.
Not really. Most (not every) AAA developers/publishers want WoW numbers, so instead of creating MMOs that appeal to a variety of smaller player segments, most attempt MMOs that will appeal to the most players, pleasing a few yet still making mega-bucks.
It is this AAA developer/publisher attitude that sets up the players' "warcamps", for we realize that "there can be only one."
In slips the indie groups. But most of the time, they lack the money and resources for well developed games.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Rydeson It's frustrating when you see glaring issues with simple solutions that never get addressed..
Even more frustrating is to see people with intentions to "fix" something that isn't broken...
It sure is. All these new players that could not stand how old MMORPGs were made, decided to "fix" them (by crying about how "haaaard" they were) to suit their own needs and wants. They weren't broken, just not fun for players that play them now.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Yes because forcing people to group is sure way to encourage socializing.
Not only does forced grouping encourage socialising, it is the principle of evolution. We are social creatures because we are more powerful as a group than as an individual.
There are many species that don't live in groups, these species are also not social and tend to have very few ways to communicate.
The word "force" does not have to have a negative connotation. A game that encourages grouping and puts in the right dynamics that create a social fabric in the game, like EQ, end up with a very strong community.
An MMO without a community is no longer an MMO, it's a big single player game. Many MMORPG put in the ORPG but forget to nourish the Massive Multiplayer part.
No one has an issue if someone wants to play an online RPG, but don't call them MMORPG, because they're not.
Originally posted by immodium However all those activities you listed that happen in the real world, the human I'm interacting with could easily be replaced by a machine. I don't have to interact at all with another human when I go shopping or go to the cinema. I can use machines.
That's your choice, you can join a social MMO with a strong community and never talk to anyone.
However, the environment a train creates is far more condicive for social interacton than sitting on your car alone.
That doesn't mean it will happen, but there is nothing wrong with games that create environments that bring about socialising, and forced grouping is one of those tools an MMO can use to promote socialising, it doesn't deserve a negative connotation.
Do you have "party trains and buses" in your town? Sure sounds like it, to me. The buses (no trains in my town) are quiet, UN-social affairs. The only talk is someone asking for a transfer slip from the bus driver. The rest? Reading, cell phone usage, and basically trying their best to shut out all the other humans sharing the ride.
In my experience, mass transit is one of the most "unsocial" activities there is.
I think both of you are right.. The design of a game has to please both the soloer and grouper.. I like to see a mix of solo/group content in the open world as it once was long ago.. Further, I would like to see a mix of group content that blends "need" and "encouraged" play. An example of "NEED" to group is raiding.. An example of encouraged to group is XP bonus, and mutual co-op.. In my dream game, I would like to see any given zone contain 5% (need) to group content (raid size dragon).. 20-30% encouraged to group content (Orc camp), and 50+ and more soloable trash content..
REMOVE all instances.. NO private mass transit.. lol I would love to have the option to go out and group with others, maybe go take on that Orc camp back in the cave.. However, make sure there are enough camps to satisfy the demand.. And if for some reason it's a slow night in the zone, I'll just go solo something else.. I would also suggest a variety of camps too.. Have some camps tailored for 2 players, or maybe 4, or maybe a 6? Some newbies NEVER experienced true social grouping in an open world environment.. Games today are pretty much solo or group in an instance queue..
One last thing too.. I do feel that many players in the genre today are somewhat shy or reserve in nature.. Afraid of being judged or talked about, so they are more comfortable in just soloing a game.. This too needs to stop if you want people to build a community.. We are all different and play different and players need to stop being so damn Esportish and competitive.. This I do hold the devs responsible because they design and put features in that discourage social behavior.. IMO
Originally posted by Bladestrom yup its common sense, community gaming is the reason for an MMO's existance therefore you should expect it incentivise and reward grouping, otherwise its a confused poorly designed single player game that has to be compromised by other peoples goals.
"Incentivizing" grouping is far different from "Forcing" grouping. One helps a player desire to group. The other MAKES a player group, whether they want to or not.
I do agree that "community gaming" should be expected from an MMO. However, there are MANY ways to socialize with other players beside "just grouping" (or PvP).
exactly, 'forced grouping' is the strawman argument used in this forum. I also agree socialising is not just about grouping, its about incentivising activities and behaviours and introducing elements that offer opportunities for the community - for example the musical instruments in LOTR.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by AlBQuirky It sure is. All these new players that could not stand how old MMORPGs were made, decided to "fix" them (by crying about how "haaaard" they were) to suit their own needs and wants. They weren't broken, just not fun for players that play them now.
Sorry to tell you but if large enough group of customers are not satisfied with the product, yes such product is broken.
Im playing WoW right now and its being called the anti social game, yet my wife and I find people to talk and play with all the time. Dancing with strangers and having fun with the community. Not on a role play server yet people are role playing with us. Often it starts with my wife and I helping some random person we dont know. If you cant find friends in a MMO, the fault maybe what your doing.
But yet, current MMO are extremely anti-social, a real community will build when the game is far more aggressive about grouping like EQ was, and that does mean penalizing people who solo more than people who group.
Due to popular demand? If players want to be anti-social in an entertainment product .. what is the problem?
And why should dev force anyone to do anything in a game? Give them the option to group. If no one wants to group ... well ... that is too bad. But the game still serves its purpose if players are having fun solo.
If people want to be antisocial in a MULTIPLAYER game... what is the problem.
/facepalm
There is nothing in multiplayer that actually assumes you are going to be social. Multiplayer is simply that...playing with other people. Now multiplayer in many games isn't necessarily a social event. Take FPS games, aside from talking smack or maybe calling out something, how often do you actually see people chatting about random events? I don't see it a ton, it's mostly people being quiet and trying to win.
Same goes for many MOBAs I've played. Unless someone is raging or talking smack there's not a ton of actual socializing going on.
Even in early mmos, like Asheron's Call which was a massively soloable game, I didn't have much social interactions outside of the Hub for trading. Even in DAoC when I was in random groups, aside from talking about pull order, CC, etc, we didn't chat much.
My socializing in gaming is done with people I consider close friends, people that I've connected with via guilds, and it's pretty much all stemmed from playing Asheron's Call with a group of co-workers. So I haven't actually needed to socialize much with random strangers.
The premise that you HAVE to be social in a multiplayer game is a farce. Too many people confuse multiplayer with socialization. It boils down to people who want to be social will be, and those who don't wish to be won't be. No matter how many tools that are available those who don't want/need social interactions simply will choose ignore their social opportunities.
Yes...there is nothing inherently wrong with that.
From my experience of late.. I prefer the way GW2 does it.. If you are level 80 and poof down to a level 30 location to play with a friends toon.. BOOM.. > auto level nerf = everyone is equal now.. Problem solved..
I agree! GW2 is fantastic in that respect. I never feel like I am wasting time on the less xp/min path. Love it!
Many places in real life force you to group. Trains, subways, schools, restaurants, movie theathers, theme parks, work...all of these places force you to get along with people and to behave in a certain way.
Video games are not real life. In fact, they are entertainment products to get away from real life. I don't see a problem to take forced grouping away if players don't want it.
Some real life activities are boring too (like waiting in line at a DMV without a smart phone). Do video games have to mimic that too?
I swear man, one day i'm going to carve up a piece of wood or clay or something into a trophy for the Person best able to utilize straw man fallacies on a message board and send it to you. You are definitely the clear winner.
That being said. Since we're taking this to extreme's, Why not just make games where you press a button once and get rewarded. I mean, why have you actually have to walk up to the mob and swing your sword at it half a dozen times. Why not just see it, press a button, and poof it dies, and then you get a big shiny new item for your efforts.
See how the argument is absurd?
Also, entertainment is not = escapism, While they often coincide wth each other, they are not a package deal.
Game of Thrones is a great example. Its brutal, your favorite characters can be killed at any moment. It deals with a lot of adult, depressing themes, yet its the most popular show ever made. Why, because people like to see alternate possibilities of reality. What you describe is boring. When everything always happy go lucky, never hard, never any strife, its boring. Thus why modern "MMO's" are all doing at best mediocre.
nah ... we are not taking extreme of making games simple. We are taking extreme of making games not real. How about D3 .. that is extremely unrealistic .. you click a button .. choose from a menu of game modes .. and you go into random dungeons with nothing but a horde of stuff to be killed. No NPCs. No day-light cycle. No need for food. Boss will spawn after you kill a certain amount of trash.
That is as unrealistic, unrelated to the real world as it can be ... what is the result? A very popular game that sold 15M copies.
There are many examples of games not being realistic at all. Now you may think that is boring .. but "boring" is subjective, and clear many like games that is not realistic.
And i don't think devs would take realism as a must (or even a desirable) in game design.
It sure is. All these new players that could not stand how old MMORPGs were made, decided to "fix" them (by crying about how "haaaard" they were) to suit their own needs and wants. They weren't broken, just not fun for players that play them now.
hmm ... a game that is not fun for its audience is not "broken"? What kind of logic is that?
And don't tell me these players are not the audience. Otherwise, devs would not be bending over backwards making it more fun of them.
Originally posted by Nanfoodle Im playing WoW right now and its being called the anti social game, yet my wife and I find people to talk and play with all the time. Dancing with strangers and having fun with the community. Not on a role play server yet people are role playing with us. Often it starts with my wife and I helping some random person we dont know. If you cant find friends in a MMO, the fault maybe what your doing.
It's not the fault of the players who want to be social, in some MMO you join a group, say "hi everyone" and you either get no reply, or you get a "let's go, let's let's go" reply, as if saying "hi" back to people is just 4 seconds of wasted time.
It's not the fault of the players who want to be social, in many games being social is like shouting into traffic trying to get someone to reply.
When the game doesn't promote being social, doesn't promote engaging people to make a group, but does everything for you, and requires no effort on your part, it will attract people who don't want to socialise. At that point, it's no longer the fault of the people who want to be social, because any attempt to be social will be met with a wall of silence and disinterest because neither the game nor community is supportive of them.
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Even WoW though, is pretty anti-social compared to EQ, I don't even think many MMO player understand what EQ players mean when we say "community", the WoW autogrouping, the public events in MMO that are so common, the fact groups often only last 30 minutes instead of days or weeks, those things are a world apart from how EQ was.
Grouping day after day with the same people in the same spot, doesn't even happen anymore in current MMO, how do you expect people to be social when groups last 30 minutes and the game made it for you. Of course no one is social, the people those games attract have no intention to be social in the first place, and the ones that wanted to be social simply give up, because like I said, in many MMO it's like trying to shout in traffic.
In EQ setting up and organising a public raid event often took mutliple hours to accomplish, if you tried that in current MMO, people would complain after 20 minutes.
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Even in this same thread people are complaining about things like slow travel, if you even suggest it, they're not interested in socialising, they're interested in playing the game and on the side, they might socialise, but ONLY if it's not inconvenient and if it doens't take more than X minutes. Those people aren't interested in socialising in the first place.
It's dishonest to suggest that it's somehow people's own fault that they're no longer social in MMO. People who want to be social haven't really changed, but the environment has changed, and the demographics now includes many people who don't want to socialise in the first place, as this thread shows.
Not only does this thread show that many players aren't MMO players, but simply online gamers not interested in the Massive Multiplayer part, it's evident each time a game that tries to be like EQ is shouted down by players.
Vanguard had slower travel in the beginning, it took 2 weeks before the complain threads to show up, with people arguing that walking for 30 minutes or more to somewhere was "wasted time", a "grind", and what have you. That same demographic will argue the XP is too slow, the travel is too slow, the death penalty is too hard, etc etc etc.
All of those things that create downtime and allow for socialising are often shouted down by new MMO players, who really aren't MMO players to begin with.
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Even suggesting in this thread that forcing people to group is shouted down, because what a crazy idea it is for people to be forced to group in a Massive Multiplayer MMO. Everyone should be allowed to solo, to have access to fast travel and nothing should require too much effort, just enough effort so I can watch my favorite TV show or twitter updates while I play my MMO.
One of the reasons many MMO aren't social, is because many MMO players who think of themselves of MMO players, are not MMO players. And many MMO that promote themselves and are promoted in the media as MMO, are not MMO.
Originally posted by Nanfoodle Im playing WoW right now and its being called the anti social game, yet my wife and I find people to talk and play with all the time. Dancing with strangers and having fun with the community. Not on a role play server yet people are role playing with us. Often it starts with my wife and I helping some random person we dont know. If you cant find friends in a MMO, the fault maybe what your doing.
It's not the fault of the players who want to be social, in some MMO you join a group, say "hi everyone" and you either get no reply, or you get a "let's go, let's let's go" reply, as if saying "hi" back to people is just 4 seconds of wasted time.
It's not the fault of the players who want to be social, in many games being social is like shouting into traffic trying to get someone to reply.
When the game doesn't promote being social, doesn't promote engaging people to make a group, but does everything for you, and requires no effort on your part, it will attract people who don't want to socialise. At that point, it's no longer the fault of the people who want to be social, because any attempt to be social will be met with a wall of silence and disinterest because neither the game nor community is supportive of them.
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Even WoW though, is pretty anti-social compared to EQ, I don't even think many MMO player understand what EQ players mean when we say "community", the WoW autogrouping, the public events in MMO that are so common, the fact groups often only last 30 minutes instead of days or weeks, those things are a world apart from how EQ was.
Grouping day after day with the same people in the same spot, doesn't even happen anymore in current MMO, how do you expect people to be social when groups last 30 minutes and the game made it for you. Of course no one is social, the people those games attract have no intention to be social in the first place, and the ones that wanted to be social simply give up, because like I said, in many MMO it's like trying to shout in traffic.
In EQ setting up and organising a public raid event often took mutliple hours to accomplish, if you tried that in current MMO, people would complain after 20 minutes.
-
-
Even in this same thread people are complaining about things like slow travel, if you even suggest it, they're not interested in socialising, they're interested in playing the game and on the side, they might socialise, but ONLY if it's not inconvenient and if it doens't take more than X minutes. Those people aren't interested in socialising in the first place.
It's dishonest to suggest that it's somehow people's own fault that they're no longer social in MMO. People who want to be social haven't really changed, but the environment has changed, and the demographics now includes many people who don't want to socialise in the first place, as this thread shows.
Not only does this thread show that many players aren't MMO players, but simply online gamers not interested in the Massive Multiplayer part, it's evident each time a game that tries to be like EQ is shouted down by players.
Vanguard had slower travel in the beginning, it took 2 weeks before the complain threads to show up, with people arguing that walking for 30 minutes or more to somewhere was "wasted time", a "grind", and what have you. That same demographic will argue the XP is too slow, the travel is too slow, the death penalty is too hard, etc etc etc.
All of those things that create downtime and allow for socialising are often shouted down by new MMO players, who really aren't MMO players to begin with.
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Even suggesting in this thread that forcing people to group is shouted down, because what a crazy idea it is for people to be forced to group in a Massive Multiplayer MMO. Everyone should be allowed to solo, to have access to fast travel and nothing should require too much effort, just enough effort so I can watch my favorite TV show or twitter updates while I play my MMO.
One of the reasons many MMO aren't social, is because many MMO players who think of themselves of MMO players, are not MMO players. And many MMO that promote themselves and are promoted in the media as MMO, are not MMO.
This guy nailed it !.....It's a long read but its exactly right.
It's 100 % the games fault, NOT the players. Just because a new game gets 2 million subs at release because of developers hype, does not mean its good.
1) Players were tricked
2) Players have nothing to play and are forever searching.
Originally posted by Nanfoodle Im playing WoW right now and its being called the anti social game, yet my wife and I find people to talk and play with all the time. Dancing with strangers and having fun with the community. Not on a role play server yet people are role playing with us. Often it starts with my wife and I helping some random person we dont know. If you cant find friends in a MMO, the fault maybe what your doing.
It's not the fault of the players who want to be social, in some MMO you join a group, say "hi everyone" and you either get no reply, or you get a "let's go, let's let's go" reply, as if saying "hi" back to people is just 4 seconds of wasted time.
It's not the fault of the players who want to be social, in many games being social is like shouting into traffic trying to get someone to reply.
When the game doesn't promote being social, doesn't promote engaging people to make a group, but does everything for you, and requires no effort on your part, it will attract people who don't want to socialise. At that point, it's no longer the fault of the people who want to be social, because any attempt to be social will be met with a wall of silence and disinterest because neither the game nor community is supportive of them.
-
Even WoW though, is pretty anti-social compared to EQ, I don't even think many MMO player understand what EQ players mean when we say "community", the WoW autogrouping, the public events in MMO that are so common, the fact groups often only last 30 minutes instead of days or weeks, those things are a world apart from how EQ was.
Grouping day after day with the same people in the same spot, doesn't even happen anymore in current MMO, how do you expect people to be social when groups last 30 minutes and the game made it for you. Of course no one is social, the people those games attract have no intention to be social in the first place, and the ones that wanted to be social simply give up, because like I said, in many MMO it's like trying to shout in traffic.
In EQ setting up and organising a public raid event often took mutliple hours to accomplish, if you tried that in current MMO, people would complain after 20 minutes.
-
-
Even in this same thread people are complaining about things like slow travel, if you even suggest it, they're not interested in socialising, they're interested in playing the game and on the side, they might socialise, but ONLY if it's not inconvenient and if it doens't take more than X minutes. Those people aren't interested in socialising in the first place.
It's dishonest to suggest that it's somehow people's own fault that they're no longer social in MMO. People who want to be social haven't really changed, but the environment has changed, and the demographics now includes many people who don't want to socialise in the first place, as this thread shows.
Not only does this thread show that many players aren't MMO players, but simply online gamers not interested in the Massive Multiplayer part, it's evident each time a game that tries to be like EQ is shouted down by players.
Vanguard had slower travel in the beginning, it took 2 weeks before the complain threads to show up, with people arguing that walking for 30 minutes or more to somewhere was "wasted time", a "grind", and what have you. That same demographic will argue the XP is too slow, the travel is too slow, the death penalty is too hard, etc etc etc.
All of those things that create downtime and allow for socialising are often shouted down by new MMO players, who really aren't MMO players to begin with.
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Even suggesting in this thread that forcing people to group is shouted down, because what a crazy idea it is for people to be forced to group in a Massive Multiplayer MMO. Everyone should be allowed to solo, to have access to fast travel and nothing should require too much effort, just enough effort so I can watch my favorite TV show or twitter updates while I play my MMO.
One of the reasons many MMO aren't social, is because many MMO players who think of themselves of MMO players, are not MMO players. And many MMO that promote themselves and are promoted in the media as MMO, are not MMO.
This guy nailed it !.....It's a long read but its exactly right.
It's 100 % the games fault, NOT the players. Just because a new game gets 2 million subs at release because of developers hype, does not mean its good.
1) Players were tricked
2) Players have nothing to play and are forever searching.
And then these non-MMO players come to forums and tell you that "you have burnt out on MMOs", and "maybe MMOs are not for you"..
Even WoW though, is pretty anti-social compared to EQ, I don't even think many MMO player understand what EQ players mean when we say "community", the WoW autogrouping, the public events in MMO that are so common, the fact groups often only last 30 minutes instead of days or weeks, those things are a world apart from how EQ was.
Even in this same thread people are complaining about things like slow travel, if you even suggest it, they're not interested in socialising, they're interested in playing the game and on the side, they might socialise, but ONLY if it's not inconvenient and if it doens't take more than X minutes. Those people aren't interested in socialising in the first place.
It's dishonest to suggest that it's somehow people's own fault that they're no longer social in MMO. People who want to be social haven't really changed, but the environment has changed, and the demographics now includes many people who don't want to socialise in the first place, as this thread shows.
All of those things that create downtime and allow for socialising are often shouted down by new MMO players, who really aren't MMO players to begin with.
Even suggesting in this thread that forcing people to group is shouted down, because what a crazy idea it is for people to be forced to group in a Massive Multiplayer MMO. Everyone should be allowed to solo, to have access to fast travel and nothing should require too much effort, just enough effort so I can watch my favorite TV show or twitter updates while I play my MMO.
One of the reasons many MMO aren't social, is because many MMO players who think of themselves of MMO players, are not MMO players. And many MMO that promote themselves and are promoted in the media as MMO, are not MMO.
Oh, i remember the EQ grouping ... that you group with the same people camping the same static spot day after day. And you spent most of the time chatting about real life because there is so much dead time. The point is, i do not want that in my games. If i want to chat, i have plenty of people to chat with ... at work ... at home ... and that is not why I play video games.
And you are right, there are a lot of anti-social players. But what is the problem if devs want them as the audience? It is a free world. No one says MMO devs must attract social players.
And i doubt many players who play MMO think of themselves as "MMO players". They just like to play games. If they are anti-social, and there is a game that allows them to have fun without socializing, why not?
So you argument boils down to "games that do not promote social are not MMOs". Well, MMO is just a label. No one really dictates what it is. And if WoW, GW2, and all the MMOs under the sun have solo-content, and make socializing optional, then there is no more "true" MMO by your definition (note that we are talking about games like WoW, GW2, TOR, ... the undisputed "MMOs" in the market, not the controversial ones like LoL).
I think your basic point boils down to "I do not like that MMOs are catered to anti-social players". My response is ... yeah ... but devs can cater to anyone they want. I do not see a problem. They are not obligated to provide games for everyone.
And then these non-MMO players come to forums and tell you that "you have burnt out on MMOs", and "maybe MMOs are not for you"..
and they would be right. Modern MMOs are clearly not about socializing (otherwise, why would they emphasize on solo content), and if you only want that in your game, modern MMOs are clearly not developed for you.
And then these non-MMO players come to forums and tell you that "you have burnt out on MMOs", and "maybe MMOs are not for you"..
and they would be right. Modern MMOs are clearly not about socializing (otherwise, why would they emphasize on solo content), and if you only want that in your game, modern MMOs are clearly not developed for you.
Comments
I don't think you can. You were forced into a server community with games like EQ because everything pretty much required a group to get completed. In todays market everyone wants WoW WoLTK where you can solo everything but instanced raids, or hardmodes and you never have to really interact with another player..
this leads to problems with reputation meaning nothing, games like EQ had black lists in zones where people who were asshats never got groups, the majority of current mmo players can't even TRY a game without bitching that it isn't some linear, carebear, themepark. Add a little bit of difficulty or pvp and their heads explode before they even give it a chance. Too much entitlement and not enough guts.
The people that are trying to make the world worse never take a day off , why should I. Light up the darkness Bob Marley
no, there was grouping in EQ because you couldn't solo (Later on soloing became easier if you were either quad kiting wiz/druid or a necro but majority of other classes couldn't). Someone in this thread has obviously never played EQ during its hayday, ill guess you weren't born yet?
The people that are trying to make the world worse never take a day off , why should I. Light up the darkness Bob Marley
Again i point to dependence.
Firstly i do not believe the old way of doing this that EQ took making you so weak you needed to group for everything and levelling took months to years.
It was annoying because you could end up waiting for hours and get nowhere .
I recall my rogue could not even solo the lowest possible mob for experience so if i did not find a group thats it for the night and it happened a lot.
I think SWG had the right approach to making a community.
Most content was soloable .Without buffs a lot was still soloable.
However,buffs made you go to a cantina or a city and get buffed.It took 10-15 minutes but it made cities vibrant and people interacted.
Also weapons and armor decayed and you needed food(for buff reason) which meant you shopped around.
Traders made cities look attractive and you would go there .
And yes best weapon meant actually physically interacting with a weaponsmith who custom build a weapon most times.
Then you find a slicer either thru tells or yelling for one to slice the weapon,more interaction.
The limitation to 1 character per server ensured the fact that unless you spent on 4-5 accounts you regularly interacted with people
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I do agree that "community gaming" should be expected from an MMO. However, there are MANY ways to socialize with other players beside "just grouping" (or PvP).
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
It's frustrating when you see glaring issues with simple solutions that never get addressed.. I have to wonder WTF are the devs doing? Sleeping? I pretty much gave up on playing MMO's because they feel like hodge podge make it up as you go along whack a mole arcade games with no direction whatsoever.. NONE.. And to get a devs to answer the REAL important questions is like talking to a politician.. GRRRRRRR.You never get a straight honest answer
In my experience, mass transit is one of the most "unsocial" activities there is.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
It is this AAA developer/publisher attitude that sets up the players' "warcamps", for we realize that "there can be only one."
In slips the indie groups. But most of the time, they lack the money and resources for well developed games.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Even more frustrating is to see people with intentions to "fix" something that isn't broken...
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
No no no..just no. Did i say 'no enough? NO!!
I think both of you are right.. The design of a game has to please both the soloer and grouper.. I like to see a mix of solo/group content in the open world as it once was long ago.. Further, I would like to see a mix of group content that blends "need" and "encouraged" play. An example of "NEED" to group is raiding.. An example of encouraged to group is XP bonus, and mutual co-op.. In my dream game, I would like to see any given zone contain 5% (need) to group content (raid size dragon).. 20-30% encouraged to group content (Orc camp), and 50+ and more soloable trash content..
REMOVE all instances.. NO private mass transit.. lol I would love to have the option to go out and group with others, maybe go take on that Orc camp back in the cave.. However, make sure there are enough camps to satisfy the demand.. And if for some reason it's a slow night in the zone, I'll just go solo something else.. I would also suggest a variety of camps too.. Have some camps tailored for 2 players, or maybe 4, or maybe a 6? Some newbies NEVER experienced true social grouping in an open world environment.. Games today are pretty much solo or group in an instance queue..
One last thing too.. I do feel that many players in the genre today are somewhat shy or reserve in nature.. Afraid of being judged or talked about, so they are more comfortable in just soloing a game.. This too needs to stop if you want people to build a community.. We are all different and play different and players need to stop being so damn Esportish and competitive.. This I do hold the devs responsible because they design and put features in that discourage social behavior.. IMO
exactly, 'forced grouping' is the strawman argument used in this forum. I also agree socialising is not just about grouping, its about incentivising activities and behaviours and introducing elements that offer opportunities for the community - for example the musical instruments in LOTR.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Sorry to tell you but if large enough group of customers are not satisfied with the product, yes such product is broken.
There is nothing in multiplayer that actually assumes you are going to be social. Multiplayer is simply that...playing with other people. Now multiplayer in many games isn't necessarily a social event. Take FPS games, aside from talking smack or maybe calling out something, how often do you actually see people chatting about random events? I don't see it a ton, it's mostly people being quiet and trying to win.
Same goes for many MOBAs I've played. Unless someone is raging or talking smack there's not a ton of actual socializing going on.
Even in early mmos, like Asheron's Call which was a massively soloable game, I didn't have much social interactions outside of the Hub for trading. Even in DAoC when I was in random groups, aside from talking about pull order, CC, etc, we didn't chat much.
My socializing in gaming is done with people I consider close friends, people that I've connected with via guilds, and it's pretty much all stemmed from playing Asheron's Call with a group of co-workers. So I haven't actually needed to socialize much with random strangers.
The premise that you HAVE to be social in a multiplayer game is a farce. Too many people confuse multiplayer with socialization. It boils down to people who want to be social will be, and those who don't wish to be won't be. No matter how many tools that are available those who don't want/need social interactions simply will choose ignore their social opportunities.
Yes...there is nothing inherently wrong with that.
I agree! GW2 is fantastic in that respect. I never feel like I am wasting time on the less xp/min path. Love it!
nah ... we are not taking extreme of making games simple. We are taking extreme of making games not real. How about D3 .. that is extremely unrealistic .. you click a button .. choose from a menu of game modes .. and you go into random dungeons with nothing but a horde of stuff to be killed. No NPCs. No day-light cycle. No need for food. Boss will spawn after you kill a certain amount of trash.
That is as unrealistic, unrelated to the real world as it can be ... what is the result? A very popular game that sold 15M copies.
There are many examples of games not being realistic at all. Now you may think that is boring .. but "boring" is subjective, and clear many like games that is not realistic.
And i don't think devs would take realism as a must (or even a desirable) in game design.
hmm ... a game that is not fun for its audience is not "broken"? What kind of logic is that?
And don't tell me these players are not the audience. Otherwise, devs would not be bending over backwards making it more fun of them.
It's not the fault of the players who want to be social, in some MMO you join a group, say "hi everyone" and you either get no reply, or you get a "let's go, let's let's go" reply, as if saying "hi" back to people is just 4 seconds of wasted time.
It's not the fault of the players who want to be social, in many games being social is like shouting into traffic trying to get someone to reply.
When the game doesn't promote being social, doesn't promote engaging people to make a group, but does everything for you, and requires no effort on your part, it will attract people who don't want to socialise. At that point, it's no longer the fault of the people who want to be social, because any attempt to be social will be met with a wall of silence and disinterest because neither the game nor community is supportive of them.
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Even WoW though, is pretty anti-social compared to EQ, I don't even think many MMO player understand what EQ players mean when we say "community", the WoW autogrouping, the public events in MMO that are so common, the fact groups often only last 30 minutes instead of days or weeks, those things are a world apart from how EQ was.
Grouping day after day with the same people in the same spot, doesn't even happen anymore in current MMO, how do you expect people to be social when groups last 30 minutes and the game made it for you. Of course no one is social, the people those games attract have no intention to be social in the first place, and the ones that wanted to be social simply give up, because like I said, in many MMO it's like trying to shout in traffic.
In EQ setting up and organising a public raid event often took mutliple hours to accomplish, if you tried that in current MMO, people would complain after 20 minutes.
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Even in this same thread people are complaining about things like slow travel, if you even suggest it, they're not interested in socialising, they're interested in playing the game and on the side, they might socialise, but ONLY if it's not inconvenient and if it doens't take more than X minutes. Those people aren't interested in socialising in the first place.
It's dishonest to suggest that it's somehow people's own fault that they're no longer social in MMO. People who want to be social haven't really changed, but the environment has changed, and the demographics now includes many people who don't want to socialise in the first place, as this thread shows.
Not only does this thread show that many players aren't MMO players, but simply online gamers not interested in the Massive Multiplayer part, it's evident each time a game that tries to be like EQ is shouted down by players.
Vanguard had slower travel in the beginning, it took 2 weeks before the complain threads to show up, with people arguing that walking for 30 minutes or more to somewhere was "wasted time", a "grind", and what have you. That same demographic will argue the XP is too slow, the travel is too slow, the death penalty is too hard, etc etc etc.
All of those things that create downtime and allow for socialising are often shouted down by new MMO players, who really aren't MMO players to begin with.
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Even suggesting in this thread that forcing people to group is shouted down, because what a crazy idea it is for people to be forced to group in a Massive Multiplayer MMO. Everyone should be allowed to solo, to have access to fast travel and nothing should require too much effort, just enough effort so I can watch my favorite TV show or twitter updates while I play my MMO.
One of the reasons many MMO aren't social, is because many MMO players who think of themselves of MMO players, are not MMO players. And many MMO that promote themselves and are promoted in the media as MMO, are not MMO.
This guy nailed it !.....It's a long read but its exactly right.
It's 100 % the games fault, NOT the players. Just because a new game gets 2 million subs at release because of developers hype, does not mean its good.
1) Players were tricked
2) Players have nothing to play and are forever searching.
And then these non-MMO players come to forums and tell you that "you have burnt out on MMOs", and "maybe MMOs are not for you"..
Oh, i remember the EQ grouping ... that you group with the same people camping the same static spot day after day. And you spent most of the time chatting about real life because there is so much dead time. The point is, i do not want that in my games. If i want to chat, i have plenty of people to chat with ... at work ... at home ... and that is not why I play video games.
And you are right, there are a lot of anti-social players. But what is the problem if devs want them as the audience? It is a free world. No one says MMO devs must attract social players.
And i doubt many players who play MMO think of themselves as "MMO players". They just like to play games. If they are anti-social, and there is a game that allows them to have fun without socializing, why not?
So you argument boils down to "games that do not promote social are not MMOs". Well, MMO is just a label. No one really dictates what it is. And if WoW, GW2, and all the MMOs under the sun have solo-content, and make socializing optional, then there is no more "true" MMO by your definition (note that we are talking about games like WoW, GW2, TOR, ... the undisputed "MMOs" in the market, not the controversial ones like LoL).
I think your basic point boils down to "I do not like that MMOs are catered to anti-social players". My response is ... yeah ... but devs can cater to anyone they want. I do not see a problem. They are not obligated to provide games for everyone.
and they would be right. Modern MMOs are clearly not about socializing (otherwise, why would they emphasize on solo content), and if you only want that in your game, modern MMOs are clearly not developed for you.
Unfortunately, you're right. They're not.