In an action combat game does the pet have its own bar and attacks and you have to use the attacks and your own attacks too. Like take the scholar pet you ask it to use a buff or to heal not automatically but by clicking on the pet bar skill. I am not just talking about just setting behaviour but actively hitting the pet skills and also using your own skills too.
Can someone please give me the name of the action combat game that has this type of combat. This would be a true pet where you can control the actual attacks not just the behaviour. Some pets you summon then it does its own thing based on defend,attack or passive behaviour,those are simple pets that require no real skill to manage . No not like that but actively target and hit the various pet skills and your own would be a true pet class. The other type is considered a minion or companion depending on the level of the AI.
Originally posted by Rydeson I can't believe I didn't catch on to this earlier when I was going through my list of role playing features that HAVE to be removed for the sake of action aimed combat.. There can NOT be a true pet class like Warcraft's Hunter & Warlock, or EQ's Necro, Shaman and Mage... When I d/l Tera and started playing it, I was looking for a nice pet class.. OOPS, there isn't one, and for good reason I guess.. It goes against the aimed targeting concept.. You can't have meaningful pets like the Hunter's bear, or the Mage's elemental going around hitting every target they attack without missing.. In addition, how do you control a pet now that you removed the target window? YEP.. over 40 classes hyped and NOT one pet class will be reveled is my guess.. Removing pet classes worth the trade off? I think not.. Has anyone heard or read anything about pet classes in EQN, I haven't..
I won't be surprised if you're 100% correct and yes they have sacrificed any meaningful pets on the altar of ridiculous "trendy" "action-combat" crap. EQ without TRUE, good pet classes? -worthless!- I love original EQ Necro, Mage and Shaman, they were my favorite classes! Without them at least something like they were in EQ1 I won't play this, not a chance.
Originally posted by Vutar Why is this still being referred to as Everquest? It simply isn't. they should just take a page from what they did in Landmark and start calling it Next, without the Everquest.
because it's the sequel of everquest. up to them if they want to take the ip or make a new game out of it
Originally posted by Vutar Why is this still being referred to as Everquest? It simply isn't. they should just take a page from what they did in Landmark and start calling it Next, without the Everquest.
The Ironic part here is that some people are complaining about EQN's features because it'll be too hard. It's too challenging to point at something and select abilities. I have still not seen a good argument as to why EQN cannot be "EverQuest" other than the fact that one will not be a carbon copy of the other. SoE is doing everyone a favor in trying something different, just like EQ originally was. The importance of EQ was not measured in it's graphics or targeting method and I'm surprised that people who really played and enjoyed it feel that way.
Landmark's name was changed for two reasons. The first is that it already crosses genres. Second is that they will be using it as a test platform for other future titles, not just EQN.
Originally posted by Rydeson I can't believe I didn't catch on to this earlier when I was going through my list of role playing features that HAVE to be removed for the sake of action aimed combat.. There can NOT be a true pet class like Warcraft's Hunter & Warlock, or EQ's Necro, Shaman and Mage... When I d/l Tera and started playing it, I was looking for a nice pet class.. OOPS, there isn't one, and for good reason I guess.. It goes against the aimed targeting concept.. You can't have meaningful pets like the Hunter's bear, or the Mage's elemental going around hitting every target they attack without missing.. In addition, how do you control a pet now that you removed the target window?
YEP.. over 40 classes hyped and NOT one pet class will be reveled is my guess.. Removing pet classes worth the trade off? I think not.. Has anyone heard or read anything about pet classes in EQN, I haven't..
I won't be surprised if you're 100% correct and yes they have sacrificed any meaningful pets on the altar of ridiculous "trendy" "action-combat" crap. EQ without TRUE, good pet classes? -worthless!- I love original EQ Necro, Mage and Shaman, they were my favorite classes! Without them at least something like they were in EQ1 I won't play this, not a chance.
In the end pet control, other than it's native AI which EQN may have a better version of it, is just like the players own abilities. It doesn't matter if you click them on your UI or point at something and click a key, it's the same thing. I would argue that in an aimed environment you could actually activate these commands quicker and with more accuracy. Whether it's pointing at a mob and pushing a button for your pet to taunt or on an ally and having the pet heal/buff. There's a lot of promise where aimed pet control is concerned.
What SoE does with the two systems is yet to be seen.
I can't believe I didn't catch on to this earlier when I was going through my list of role playing features that HAVE to be removed for the sake of action aimed combat.. There can NOT be a true pet class like Warcraft's Hunter & Warlock, or EQ's Necro, Shaman and Mage... When I d/l Tera and started playing it, I was looking for a nice pet class.. OOPS, there isn't one, and for good reason I guess.. It goes against the aimed targeting concept.. You can't have meaningful pets like the Hunter's bear, or the Mage's elemental going around hitting every target they attack without missing.. In addition, how do you control a pet now that you removed the target window?
YEP.. over 40 classes hyped and NOT one pet class will be reveled is my guess.. Removing pet classes worth the trade off? I think not.. Has anyone heard or read anything about pet classes in EQN, I haven't..
Show me something official that says there will be no pet class or this tread is just another one of your lets bash EQN. Why do you keep digging deeper into a game you have so much hate for? This is not the first MMO you have done this on this forum, you seem to pick a new MMO to bash every 6 months.
You know when someone says "true _____", that they are trying to doing some kind of forum game. They get to shoot down any point as not being true to their opinion.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
?? huhhh There is a pro-gaming league where players make millions?
This is just from competitions. Can also factor in merchandise, endorsements, and other means of income that involves gaming. Gamers are able to get Visas to play in certain countries now... You do realize people play games competitively and casually for a living now right?
As for the dumb down thing. Lets face it and accept it, that most MOBA style (PvP) games are simplified, or homogenized.. But so is McDonald's menu, but that doesn't make them the most sought out location for Christmas or New Years Eve parties..
No lets not. They are designed to be accessible to a huge variety of players, but allow for skill to factor in greatly. Anyone can play, but only some can master. Nothing to do with Mcdonalds. Again, if it was that simple, I'd be winning tons of cash in these competitions. It simply isn't that easy. Might as well say Chess is a homogenized dumbed down game. Each piece only can move a couple ways and there are only a few pieces...
FIRST glaring issue, when multiple mobs are so close they are almost stacked, TERA type aim targeting makes it almost impossible to target the mob behind the other.. Tag targeting makes it easy..
Because it makes sense to target the enemy behind? Talk about immersive and realistic
But it isn't.. The biggest issue with Pet / Aiming is that ya'll hype how "SKILL" of aiming makes the game exciting.. We all know that AIM'ing combat is totally reliant on the "TO HIT" percentage.. The bigger the target the easier it is to hit.. I have already noticed in TERA that most mobs are slow and big.. SHIT, it feels like I'm shooting at a barn, and can't miss.. The smaller targets have such low hit points it only takes 1 or 2 shots and they are dead.. Again NO challenge..
What if the AI was actually some what "better" and didn't just stand around waiting for you to aim and kill it? What if it was busy moving around and actually attacking back? Can't say Storybricks will do this, but the devs sure seem to think so. For me, aiming isn't about the skill. It is about making me engage in the action. I don't find mmorpg aiming any more challenging then tab targeting. Hit boxes and mechanics usually are fairly forgiving (which you seem to have come to realize).
The skill aspect comes in when we factor in how we each take advantage of our class-skills-gear and use them in a way to overcome challenges. This can be done in countless ways to multiple ends. Aiming is simply a way we get an skill effect to reach something else, nothing more. When I said you should play Tera, I didn't mean take Tera to be 100% like EQN. Nor Smite, NW, or any other game. Simply that there are games that share characteristics and are functional. If Tera or insert game worked amazingly and provided a challenge, I'd be playing them. Yet here I am.
Now as this relates to pets. Traditionally pets do significant damage or taunt and tank the target.. Their main role was always tanking the target while their DPS masters did the rest.. Can and will pets still tank? According to SOE, NO, the tanking taunt feature has been removed.. Now the pets become DPS roles, however pets NEVER miss hitting their target.. That being the case, you honestly think that SOE is going to allow pets to OWN their target since they never miss? NO.. What I suspect is that pets DPS will be greatly NERFED to the point their dps numbers are nothing more then an annoying mosquito.. or Pets will become support/buff/healers..
So basically you are upset that pets can't take on the role of another player and allow you to solo content designed for multiple people? Or am I missing something. Typically pet classes are solo classes because of this crappy design (in my eyes). Sick pet on Mob A while you go to Mob B or better yet, pet is able to take on a load of mobs and you get to pick them off one by one. To me this is cheesy and anti-community/socializing.
No problem with pets, but they should either be the power of the class and the player is very weak or they should supplement a okay class. Problem with most games is you can still play a pet class without a pet in some or all content. Which leads to balance issue because as soon as the pet comes out, the regular class just became unbalanced. No thanks. It all depends on Storybricks and how combat will actually work, but until we see it, I'm not throwing in the towel on pets just yet.
Of course you haven't seen a good argument, you have had your head so far buried in the sand since EQnext was announced that it is hard for you to see anything. If it is truly that difficult for you to understand why this game should not be called Everquest, then you didn't play Everquest. Its that simple.
I played EQ from shortly after launch until a bit after POP. EQN fits within the franchise perfectly fine to me. EQOA wasn't EQ, EQ2 wasn't EQ, EQN isn't EQ. They all should and do stand on their own.
Just because you need it to have XYZ exactly like a previous game doesn't detract what others believe. EQN isn't EQ, very true, but it is another game in the franchise/IP.
Then again, current EQ isn't the EQ I played, so I guess EQ isn't EQ? Madness in the gaming word!
Feel free to point out 10 features of EQ that make it what it was that haven't been duplicated in multiple games since and aren't owned by EQ itself. Factor in the current state of the game as well, not just the early years. What makes a game worthy of holding the EQ in front of the name?
Only things I can think of are the names (lands, npcs, mobs, skills, classes, items, etc) and the lore. Both of which will be in EQN in some form, not a huge difference compared to EQ2/EQOA. Mechanics wise, very little EQ features are unique now a days.
Allein... You and others are missing the whole point, especially when it comes to pet classes.. Your excuse and examples come from bad game/class designs, which even I would bitch about.. Pet's should only supplement it's master so they have the same solo'ing options as others.. Shaman's in EQ had pets which allowed them to solo most of the content.. The pet acted more as a tank with good dps ability, keeping the shaman from taking too much damage.. Beastlords and pets shared the dps/tanking together.. Necro's used the skelly mostly for tank distraction while fear kiting.. Mage had a variety of pets depending on what role they wanted to use them as..
WoW did a great job in using a variety of pets to fill certain roles.. normally tanking or dps.. Generally speaking, pets were always used to tank, allowing squishy classes to solo content.. EQN announced that the ole "tank/squishy" game play is GONE.. So, there is no need to tank anymore, and since agro grabbing (taunt for example) is removed, most pets now have no role other then to dps.. Does this mean that pet classes in EQN will only fill the dps role? and how much dps will EQN allow them to have, especially in a AIMED shooter combat type of game..
Traditionally dps pets supplemented it's master by doing a third of the damage in combat.. Will that remain true in EQN? Can a player just kite mobs around allowing their DPS pet (that NEVER misses) to chew up their targets? And what about pets that have range dps ability.. OOPS.. how do mobs SHOOT at players or other mobs that are moving all the time.. Can the AI "lead" a moving target, or will the AI "MISS" all the time shooting to where I"m not at anymore? or will the AI only do AOE range attacks, telegraphing WHERE they are shooting.. Zzzzz
Pets and Aim targeting host all sorts of problems, which can only be resolved by NERFING the shit out of the game.. Think about it.. An Evil wizard wants to cast a fireball at me, and I'm bouncing around like a bunny.. What are the odds that wizard ever hits me (a moving target)? I seriously doubt the devs at EQN can program an AI that learns to "lead" a target when shooting.. I suspect pets might end up being more like minor buffs/heals/ and dps that aren't needed by their master are mainly just fun perks... sorta like the bear pet Druids had in EQ.. LOL
Originally posted by Vutar Why is this still being referred to as Everquest? It simply isn't. they should just take a page from what they did in Landmark and start calling it Next, without the Everquest.
The Ironic part here is that some people are complaining about EQN's features because it'll be too hard. It's too challenging to point at something and select abilities. I have still not seen a good argument as to why EQN cannot be "EverQuest" other than the fact that one will not be a carbon copy of the other. SoE is doing everyone a favor in trying something different, just like EQ originally was. The importance of EQ was not measured in it's graphics or targeting method and I'm surprised that people who really played and enjoyed it feel that way.
Landmark's name was changed for two reasons. The first is that it already crosses genres. Second is that they will be using it as a test platform for other future titles, not just EQN.
Of course you haven't seen a good argument, you have had your head so far buried in the sand since EQnext was announced that it is hard for you to see anything. If it is truly that difficult for you to understand why this game should not be called Everquest, then you didn't play Everquest. Its that simple.
Apparently it's not that simple, you offered nothing other than slights. That's fine, I'm looking forward to the game and I'm sorry your disappointed you didn't get your reskin. Oh I played EQ and IMO it was more a concept than a boxed world. It had names and places and a bit of lore but it was the concepts that were important. Group play, open world, and a challenge. The rest was a brand name, location names, and NPC names. There is an argument for those getting scrambled around a bit but I think the "reimagining" could gel really well, we'll see how it turns out. It's funny that you use a metaphor that is to blind when I'm actually seeing the big picture. Some people are getting so wrapped up in the small specifics that the larger whole is missed. That's my opinion at least.
I wont say pets go against combat mechanics. Wow pet AI has pretty good coding in regards to moving from certain abilities and such. So it really comes down to how good the engineering team is at coding pet AI. I personally love pet classes but sadly some MMORPGs just dont even try. GW2 has pretty ok pet AI, although some stuff its just terrible. FFXIV pet AI is pretty lackluster but gets the job done I suppose. Sad that many companies want "something for nothing" so they omit certain features to push content.
What pet classes would you like to see and how could you envisage them being incorporated into an action combat system?
For example, I think pets could be controlled by:
1) A pet summons takes an ability slot, you summon the pet and it acts according to a predefined AI (perhaps pressing the summoning ability while pet is summoned makes it perform a special ability).
2) A pet is an intrinsic part of a class, and comes with additional skills such as attack/defend/special ability that are separate to class/weapon skills.
From what we know of how EQN is meant to work, I imagine a pet class would work something like (1), possibly with the options to slot additional pet-focused or player-focused abilities for the other class skills.
For example, I think there are going to be 4 class specific skills right? So if you wanted to make a pet-focused build you could choose one slot for the pet summon, one could be a pet heal, and the other two could be pet special attacks or synergies (eg: pet guards player absorbing 50% of damage (tank), pet and player do some devastating combination attack (dps)).
EQN could well have a deeper pet-based classes than any other major mmo to date given the flexibility of its class/weapon system and skill slotting. I am excited to see what the devs come up with.
What pet classes would you like to see and how could you envisage them being incorporated into an action combat system?
For example, I think pets could be controlled by:
1) A pet summons takes an ability slot, you summon the pet and it acts according to a predefined AI (perhaps pressing the summoning ability while pet is summoned makes it perform a special ability).
2) A pet is an intrinsic part of a class, and comes with additional skills such as attack/defend/special ability that are separate to class/weapon skills.
From what we know of how EQN is meant to work, I imagine a pet class would work something like (1), possibly with the options to slot additional pet-focused or player-focused abilities for the other class skills.
For example, I think there are going to be 4 class specific skills right? So if you wanted to make a pet-focused build you could choose one slot for the pet summon, one could be a pet heal, and the other two could be pet special attacks or synergies (eg: pet guards player absorbing 50% of damage (tank), pet and player do some devastating combination attack (dps)).
EQN could well have a deeper pet-based classes than any other major mmo to date given the flexibility of its class/weapon system and skill slotting. I am excited to see what the devs come up with.
Going by the two pets classes (Necro and Beastlord) already announced for EQNext, along with the skill system explanation (origin, slots, etc), it's probably more like 2). The pets are part of a classes, they won't be something you can share with all the other classes (all the none-weapon abilities can be used with any classes if you unlocked them).
The Necromancer's monstrosity was called a companion that gain in strength along with his master. This is a "always on" pet to me, not something you summons in the middle of battle.
Doom calling when we have no info. When SoE release info on even just 1 pet class, why dont you bash the pet system then. As of now your just making things up or guessing. Never Winter has a great pet syetem and its an action style game. It is possible to have a pet system within an action style game. SoE is breaking the molds on a few things (or trying to) who knows what they have in store for gamers who like pets. As you pointed out above, they did a great job with pets so far in EQ. At this point we dont even know if they will or will not have them.
Pet's should only supplement it's master so they have the same solo'ing options as others..
Fully agree. Yet this is rarely the case. While not 100% true, a good number of "pet" classes can function without their pets and sometimes are required to (raiding). To me this is an issue. Good chunk of the time, pets allow players to solo or add to a group more then what another class could do. Why add one player when you can have 2 DPS or a DPS + Tank from a pet class.
WoW did a great job in using a variety of pets to fill certain roles.. normally tanking or dps.. Generally speaking, pets were always used to tank, allowing squishy classes to solo content..
Which is fine if all squishy classes have abilities to let them do the exact same thing minus the pet or without the pet, it wouldn't be possible at all for the pet class to solo.
Warlock/Hunter in WoW could function without their pets depending on the builds, but obviously benefited greatly by having them.
EQN announced that the ole "tank/squishy" game play is GONE..
Source? Warrior = Wizard in offense/defense/dps/cc? Wizards will have just as many skills to defend the group as a Warrior? Warrior will have just as much DPS as a Ranger? Heavy armor = Cloth?
So, there is no need to tank anymore
Source? They've said there isn't a "need" for dedicated tanks/healers in the sense of how the trinity works. As in you NEED a tank/healer or content is too difficult or impossible. They have also said these roles will still exist, simply different approach. MOBAs have "tanks", PVP in most mmorpgs have "tanks" without any need of taunt or agro. It is a role, not a mechanic.
I'm assuming you don't have a lot of PVP experience, but I've see it in every game I've played in the last ~20 years without fail. You might not "need" a tank, but you sure might want one.
and since agro grabbing (taunt for example) is removed, most pets now have no role other then to dps..
Source? We don't know how agro-threat-hate will work or how Storybricks AI functions in combat. Assuming there is no system is place seems like pretty big guess.
Pets couldn't provide buffs/debuffs/healing/cc etc? Heck maybe even combos with their master? I fully expect them to have some DPS abilities, but if all they can do is dps or tank, that's a pretty sad design (typical pets).
Traditionally dps pets supplemented it's master by doing a third of the damage in combat.. Will that remain true in EQN? Can a player just kite mobs around allowing their DPS pet (that NEVER misses) to chew up their targets?
Better question, will mobs be stupid enough to be kited? AOE farming, kiting, or whatever is highly dependent on mobs be dumb enough to chase you around. Animals aren't even that stupid in real life. While I've fear, dot, pet, whatever kited over the years, it is a very anti-social design. Usually people use this method because they can defeat harder or larger numbers of enemies then a typical class or even small group (Quad kiting giants). Yes it is an accomplishment, but I think it leads to balance issues that lead to nurfs/buffs and further issues down the line.
And what about pets that have range dps ability.. OOPS.. how do mobs SHOOT at players or other mobs that are moving all the time.. Can the AI "lead" a moving target, or will the AI "MISS" all the time shooting to where I"m not at anymore? or will the AI only do AOE range attacks, telegraphing WHERE they are shooting.. Zzzzz
We honestly don't know. Everything is a possibility until we do. To assume there is only 1 option isn't thinking very far. Storybricks or at least what they say it is, has never been done before or at least I've never seen it and would love to be shown where it has. At this point though saying something is/isn't possible is just pulling from thin air. We don't know.
How does any game keep the AI from having Godmode? Take FPS/MOBA games for example. Enemies have guns that can kill in 1 head shot, yet they still manage to miss and be idiots. I'm not a game designer, but I'm assuming there is some system in place to account for everything and make it challenging, yet still fun and not impossible to play.
Pets and Aim targeting host all sorts of problems, which can only be resolved by NERFING the shit out of the game.. Think about it.. An Evil wizard wants to cast a fireball at me, and I'm bouncing around like a bunny.. What are the odds that wizard ever hits me (a moving target)?
First you assume players can bounce around like bunnies in EQN or that it won't get toned down even more in Landmark then it has. If you've played Landmark lately, I'm not sure how you are bouncing around like a bunny and still effective as not bouncing.
Second you seem to not understand that aiming systems can work multiple ways.
Even with the insane crazy over the top bunny hopping in Landmark (/s) it is fairly easy to hit a moving target with ranged weapons while both sides are moving around. Skills fire off quick enough and the hit box is large enough that it doesn't take ninja reflexes to play.
They could easily add in more soft lock stuff (Tera heals are like this I believe) where if you "lock on" to a target and hit the skill, it will travel to them, regardless if they move a bit or not. The skill tracks the player and lands as long as the target was on them when you fire the skill.
Now if someone has a skill that lets them move 100ft away in an instant, ya you might miss, but as we've seen, skills will have resource costs so doubtful you can pretend to be the flash forever and be effective at anything else.
I seriously doubt the devs at EQN can program an AI that learns to "lead" a target when shooting.. I suspect pets might end up being more like minor buffs/heals/ and dps that aren't needed by their master are mainly just fun perks... sorta like the bear pet Druids had in EQ.. LOL
When they actually show us some, then we can jump to some better conclusions. Just because you haven't seen something before, doesn't mean it can't happen. I don't believe SB is going to be omg amazing, but I doubt it will be worse then what we've had before in the AI department, pets included.
Balancing pet classes isn't easy, but it can be done and even with Aiming and action combat.
I'd prefer them to supplement and be 1/3 or 1/4 the class or whatever portion that without a pet, the class is basically underpowered in some way and at a loss. There should be a symbiotic relationship, unlike the usual where a pet's death is no concern.
I think having a full tank pet that you can just leave to die and run to safety is bad or that can replace an actual meaty class and player. Same as sending a mob into a pack and letting it tear them up while eating a sandwich. While I don't want to totally get away from the traditional design, I do hope they go for more of maybe what GW2 had or something like that where pets are like another skill or two on the bar and not another class or two in the group.
Warlock/Hunter in WoW could function without their pets depending on the builds, but obviously benefited greatly by having them. only in a solo mode.. I seldom ever had my pets active in WoW when in dungeons or raids..
Source? Warrior = Wizard in offense/defense/dps/cc? Wizards will have just as many skills to defend the group as a Warrior? Warrior will have just as much DPS as a Ranger? Heavy armor = Cloth? ?? Do you understand what a squishy is? Squishy means that player DIES in very few hits and unable to take any significant damage.. (ie. EQ Enchanter) Think about it buddy.. YOU can NOT have a smart AI that knows to attack the squishy, and the squishy unable to defend himself.. FYI, there are NO squishy classes in GW2 for example, ALL my characters can take a number of hits regardless of armor they are wearing..
Source? They've said there isn't a "need" for dedicated tanks/healers in the sense of how the trinity works. As in you NEED a tank/healer or content is too difficult or impossible. They have also said these roles will still exist, simply different approach. MOBAs have "tanks", PVP in most mmorpgs have "tanks" without any need of taunt or agro. It is a role, not a mechanic. Seriouslly, you need to think about this for a second.. If groups don't NEED roles to live through a fight, what keeps them from just ZERGING the shit? Absolutely nothing = welcome to GW2 combat..
I'm assuming you don't have a lot of PVP experience, but I've see it in every game I've played in the last ~20 years without fail. You might not "need" a tank, but you sure might want one.
ahhh I was wondering how long it would take you to toss out the PVP topic, again showing your esport competitive game play.. Are you finally admitting that you want EQN to be a PvP esport game?
Source? We don't know how agro-threat-hate will work or how Storybricks AI functions in combat. Assuming there is no system is place seems like pretty big guess.
Pets couldn't provide buffs/debuffs/healing/cc etc? Heck maybe even combos with their master? I fully expect them to have some DPS abilities, but if all they can do is dps or tank, that's a pretty sad design (typical pets).Actually EQ1 allows for mercs to heal, tank and support the players, almost equal to that of the player himself.. I doubt pets will have the same strength of power.. But if EQN pets are nothing more then minor companions that contribute 5% of the fight, why bother even having them.. WHICH is the topic here.. REAL pets that have REAL impact..
Better question, will mobs be stupid enough to be kited? AOE farming, kiting, or whatever is highly dependent on mobs be dumb enough to chase you around. Animals aren't even that stupid in real life. (I used to fear kite players in PvP all the time in WoW, until the whiners cried loud enough for Blizzard to hear them.. The ability to KITE a target has NOTHING to do with how smart or stupid your target is) While I've fear, dot, pet, whatever kited over the years, it is a very anti-social design. Usually people use this method because they can defeat harder or larger numbers of enemies then a typical class or even small group (Quad kiting giants). Yes it is an accomplishment, but I think it leads to balance issues that lead to nurfs/buffs and further issues down the line. Balance issues in what? PvE.. or you beloved PvP mindset? I'm guessing PvP, because it's unfair for me to KITE another player to death?
And what about pets that have range dps ability.. OOPS.. how do mobs SHOOT at players or other mobs that are moving all the time.. Can the AI "lead" a moving target, or will the AI "MISS" all the time shooting to where I"m not at anymore? or will the AI only do AOE range attacks, telegraphing WHERE they are shooting.. Zzzzz
We honestly don't know. Everything is a possibility until we do. To assume there is only 1 option isn't thinking very far. Storybricks or at least what they say it is, has never been done before or at least I've never seen it and would love to be shown where it has. At this point though saying something is/isn't possible is just pulling from thin air. We don't know.
How does any game keep the AI from having Godmode? Take FPS/MOBA games for example. Enemies have guns that can kill in 1 head shot, yet they still manage to miss and be idiots. I'm not a game designer, but I'm assuming there is some system in place to account for everything and make it challenging, yet still fun and not impossible to play. You are getting warmer.. warmer to understanding, but still a ways to go.. Sure AI's can be scaled to be newbies or pros, however the problem comes as to how skillful do you make a pet? If you allow the pets to "bite" too hard, it becomes overpowering, but if you nerf their bite, pets become meaningless.. This also is related and goes to how BIG a gap there is between poor and skilled players in AIMED combat.. How do you scale a pet to be fair for all? We have not heard about any of this, because honestly for 2 reasons.. 1) SOE is so stupid they haven't thought of any of this, or 2) THEY know damn well the problems it may cause and have NO answers at this time and wish to stay away from this topic.. There is no 3rd option here.. LOL
First you assume players can bounce around like bunnies in EQN or that it won't get toned down even more in Landmark then it has. If you've played Landmark lately, I'm not sure how you are bouncing around like a bunny and still effective as not bouncing. Lets just admit it.. Landmark combat is BUNNY HOP 101, and PvP has dropped significantly as well.. Related?
Second you seem to not understand that aiming systems can work multiple ways. Explain to us please
Even with the insane crazy over the top bunny hopping in Landmark (/s) it is fairly easy to hit a moving target with ranged weapons while both sides are moving around. Skills fire off quick enough and the hit box is large enough that it doesn't take ninja reflexes to play. OK, so you are saying the targets are such a big box it's hard to MISS...... WAITTTTTTTTTTTTTTT.. Doesn't that go against everything you just ranted about "skilled" players, etc etc.. Now you are saying that it takes no skill to hit a moving target.. make up your mind please..
They could easily add in more soft lock stuff (Tera heals are like this I believe) where if you "lock on" to a target and hit the skill, it will travel to them, regardless if they move a bit or not. The skill tracks the player and lands as long as the target was on them when you fire the skill. So as long as I get "close" enough, no problem and what do you know when players are stacked so close that it's almost impossible to target the right person without a physical target window.. Think about it..
Now if someone has a skill that lets them move 100ft away in an instant, ya you might miss, but as we've seen, skills will have resource costs so doubtful you can pretend to be the flash forever and be effective at anything else.
When they actually show us some, then we can jump to some better conclusions. Just because you haven't seen something before, doesn't mean it can't happen. I don't believe SB is going to be omg amazing, but I doubt it will be worse then what we've had before in the AI department, pets included.
Balancing pet classes isn't easy, but it can be done and even with Aiming and action combat. SOURCE?
I'd prefer them to supplement and be 1/3 or 1/4 the class or whatever portion that without a pet, the class is basically underpowered in some way and at a loss. There should be a symbiotic relationship, unlike the usual where a pet's death is no concern.
I think having a full tank pet that you can just leave to die and run to safety is bad or that can replace an actual meaty class and player. Same as sending a mob into a pack and letting it tear them up while eating a sandwich. While I don't want to totally get away from the traditional design, I do hope they go for more of maybe what GW2 had or something like that where pets are like another skill or two on the bar and not another class or two in the group.
I have to say.. I love it when you ask me to source every possible issue that EQN will most likely have, yet you have NO sourcing on your opinions.. I wonder when Landmark is going to implement pets, so people can see how they work.. just like sword/bow/staff combat.. This should be interesting..
I have to say.. I love it when you ask me to source every possible issue that EQN will most likely have, yet you have NO sourcing on your opinions.. I wonder when Landmark is going to implement pets, so people can see how they work.. just like sword/bow/staff combat.. This should be interesting..
Most of what you state above has to do with how SoE would chose to design the pets in general rather than the mechanical limitations of a pet class using aimed combat. These are two separate issues and we'll have to see what SoE does.
The one point you do bring up is how it would work when mobs stack. Either the game is programmed for mobs to stack in the first place or to automatically spread out. If they spread out there is no problem, right? If they do "bunch" then you create separation by moving around, one of the reasons to have aimed combat in the first place. MMOs like TERA, to a point, allow one to play aimed combat like tab (just standing there) but to really do your best is to move around when you're supposed to.
So far the footage we have of combat shows the mobs spreading out:
only in a solo mode.. I seldom ever had my pets active in WoW when in dungeons or raids..
That's kind of my point. They were perfectly fine without their pets. They were a functional class + a pet that could make them a bit to powerful compared to others. Not extremely, but I'd rather pets actually mean something and not using them causes the class to be much weaker or function differently.
?? Do you understand what a squishy is? Squishy means that player DIES in very few hits and unable to take any significant damage.. (ie. EQ Enchanter) Think about it buddy.. YOU can NOT have a smart AI that knows to attack the squishy, and the squishy unable to defend himself.. FYI, there are NO squishy classes in GW2 for example, ALL my characters can take a number of hits regardless of armor they are wearing..
GW2 also has self rez, self heals, yadda yadda. PVP class design balance. EQN squishy classes might be able to defend themselves to various levels, but we really don't know yet. I'm assuming we can build a "class" to be a glass cannon like most games. Unless you've played a game with SB equal AI, not sure how you can say 100% what can or can't happen.
Seriouslly, you need to think about this for a second.. If groups don't NEED roles to live through a fight, what keeps them from just ZERGING the shit? Absolutely nothing = welcome to GW2 combat..
Depending on design, you might not technically "Need" anything. A healer could kill something given enough time/effort. Why would they ever want to group up with a DPS or Tank buddy? Really not that hard. The more diversity and team work tactics available, the better.
GW2 class design is terrible for PVE. It is for eSport PVP which you obviously dislike. I enjoyed GW2 for the PVP end, PVE was bad. Stop comparing the two if you can't grasp this concept.
PVP classes + crap AI + zerg friendly content = lame experience. You seem to jump to the conclusion that EQN will be like this because action combat. Beyond that, there is no reason to compare them.
I'm assuming you use Zerg to mean everyone is doing mindless DPS, not in overpowering content with high numbers (that's more of what I call Zerg). Reason GW2 allowed full on DPS is because the AI was crap and there was no counter. Just DPS DPS DPS. Imagine if the AI actually had some form of tactics and fought back?
ahhh I was wondering how long it would take you to toss out the PVP topic, again showing your esport competitive game play.. Are you finally admitting that you want EQN to be a PvP esport game?
No I'm pointing out that you don't have a lot of experience from what you've said. Doesn't sound like you've played a ton of mmorpgs or at least a variety of types. This isn't an issue of PVP vs PVE. The mechanics and tactics used in PVP aka fighting an enemy that fights back and isn't a sack of HPs waiting for you to smack it around, is apparently what EQN's PVE content will be like.
You seem to believe roles revolve around gamey mechanics, which I do not.
Ever played football? Notice the very large individuals in the front? What are they doing? Sure as heck aren't spamming taunt. Using their physical power and size to control the other side to let the smaller/faster guys in the back do their thing. This is PVP.
I want PVE, but I want a challenge. I don't want mindless tank and spank sacks of HP. I want the enemy to fight back. If a rat to a dragon can be easily managed by hitting a few buttons that generate agro/hate/threat, that challenge is greatly reduce. If players have to snare, slow, disarm, blind, knock up/back/down, or flat out body block (I miss collision) that is taking it to a more challenging level.
Actually EQ1 allows for mercs to heal, tank and support the players, almost equal to that of the player himself.. I doubt pets will have the same strength of power.. But if EQN pets are nothing more then minor companions that contribute 5% of the fight, why bother even having them.. WHICH is the topic here.. REAL pets that have REAL impact..
Mercs are not pets, they are "pets" taken to the worst place. I agree, they shouldn't be meh 5% or whatever, but a class shouldn't be 90% and the pet 50% of non pet class. I'd go for 75/25, 60/40 or some other meaningful combo.
(I used to fear kite players in PvP all the time in WoW, until the whiners cried loud enough for Blizzard to hear them.. The ability to KITE a target has NOTHING to do with how smart or stupid your target is)
I disagree. What you describe is taking advantage of poor design. I'm not a fan of being able to 100% lock down an enemy (mob or player) without diminishing returns or any chance of them to help themselves. Pretty lame to me and not much challenge.
If we remove that ability, then "intelligence" comes into play. Using snare, roots, dots, range damage in general, and even fear, I'd hope an enemy will realize they are being taken for a ride and change tactics. Why would I keep following you if you will just root/dot/fear and run 50 ft to do it again? Obviously AI can only get so bright and I'm also not a fan of mobs resetting, but I don't like the cheese route either. Kiting should exist, but to me, it should take a bit more to pull off.
Balance issues in what? PvE.. or you beloved PvP mindset? I'm guessing PvP, because it's unfair for me to KITE another player to death?
Both. I view them as the same. I'm not a PVE vs PVE gamer. I love it all. I want a "fair" fight in both. If X class can swarm kite and kill 20+ mobs that another class can barely kill a couple in the same amount of time, with higher risk/reward, that is an issue. This is why forums are always full of "what's the best class to farm or fastest to lvl or best to blah blah."
I'd have no trouble with someone building the ultimate Fear Machine Class. But they better die instantly if one doesn't land and I sneeze at them. Warlocks from WoW for example, had a large tool set and fear was simply one more trick which was very powerful.
PVP.... I get it, you don't like it. But quite a few people do. Looking at the numbers, the vast majority of gamers enjoy either PVP or at least some form of competitive play. Doesn't mean we all want full loot FFA PVP and want to gank you endlessly. I really hope PVP takes a backseat in EQN myself and that it is reserved for special servers or content outside of the core game. But please continue bashing me and my love of PVP cause it is so evil and you are so high and mighty because you don't like it.
I would take PVE with challenging AI over mindless PVP killing any day. Unfortunately, most games lack good PVE for me. I still love the challenge and fun of PVP and competitive play, but my epeen is not the center of my world. I like having casual fun with others and find PVE to be a better way to do that typically.
You are getting warmer.. warmer to understanding, but still a ways to go.. Sure AI's can be scaled to be newbies or pros, however the problem comes as to how skillful do you make a pet? If you allow the pets to "bite" too hard, it becomes overpowering, but if you nerf their bite, pets become meaningless.. This also is related and goes to how BIG a gap there is between poor and skilled players in AIMED combat.. How do you scale a pet to be fair for all? We have not heard about any of this, because honestly for 2 reasons.. 1) SOE is so stupid they haven't thought of any of this, or 2) THEY know damn well the problems it may cause and have NO answers at this time and wish to stay away from this topic.. There is no 3rd option here.. LOL
3) They have the answer but have no reason to explain it to you personally so that you don't go on and on about it...considering they've haven't really given great detail into the majority of EQN yet. I'm going to take the chance and say that pets aren't their dirty little secret they just can't figure out.
You seem to work in the extremes (newbies or pros, too hard or meaningless), what about balance? There is no perfect magical balance for all, but I'm assuming they can figure something out.
You played Tera, you honestly believe it takes a highly skilled individual to play it? Not saying there isn't a learning curve, but it isn't like someone will never grasp the concept of pointing at something with a mouse and hitting a button on a keyboard. Really not too crazy.
You scale a pet by making it a pet and a tool instead of the equal to a another player. Pets shouldn't be a crutch for under skilled players so they can solo or function like an average player.
Again, I think aiming shouldn't be top priority when it comes skill. How we manage the class should. No different then a poor Warlock in WoW compared to a good one. Aim/Tab shouldn't be the #1 variable.
Lets just admit it.. Landmark combat is BUNNY HOP 101, and PvP has dropped significantly as well.. Related?
Nope. Landmark's items allowed for quite a bit of over the top movement, but they've been dealt with slightly and it sounds like they will continue to balance it out. Do you follow the live streams and dev posts? Where exactly do you get your info about Landmark's PVP? Population in general has dropped, but it isn't a surprise. People are waiting for more new stuff, no different then other games (WoW comes to mind). SOE got people interested, but until a lot of key features are in, interest is where it will stay.
OK, so you are saying the targets are such a big box it's hard to MISS...... WAITTTTTTTTTTTTTTT.. Doesn't that go against everything you just ranted about "skilled" players, etc etc.. Now you are saying that it takes no skill to hit a moving target.. make up your mind please.
I didn't say it takes NO skill, just not the extreme amount that you seem to believe. I've been saying that ideally how we manage a class should be where skill comes in, not the targeting mechanism. Aim is just a medium. Yes aim could be used to make content easier/harder by changing hit boxes or what not, but I think it should be low on the list. I don't want the most challenging PVE content to require ninja aiming skills. If I've said otherwise, please quote me, but that isn't what I'm trying to say.
So as long as I get "close" enough, no problem and what do you know when players are stacked so close that it's almost impossible to target the right person without a physical target window.. Think about it..
I linked some Tera videos of a typical WoW like raid encounter in another thread for you. Healers can heal just fine. I think this is a matter of playing smartly and as a team. Maybe 50 players shouldn't stand on top of one another if they need to be individually healed? Just a thought. As you've said though, EQN will probably have a lot of AOE or Cone type skills, which I have no problem with.
There is no reason that skills have to be only single target. Actually making single target skills do more dmg/heal or whatever balances out with it being slightly harder to target 1 person in the pack. "Hey I need a heal!" "Where are you" "Someone take this mob" guys walks out of the chaos "On your right" "Got ya". Instead of "Just spam heals on me as I mindlessly face tank without concern".
SOURCE?
How can I source my opinion? Above your opinion is used as fact, a bit different. Just because you can't think of a way for it to work, doesn't make it impossible or reality. I'm not saying EQN will have good pets, but I think it is possible with their team at the wheel. Then again I don't think they are a bunch of morons fumbling around in the studio either. If I said, EQN will have Necro pets just like EQ, I'd provide a source as that is an assumed fact, not my opinion. Hopefully you understand this.
I have to say.. I love it when you ask me to source every possible issue that EQN will most likely have, yet you have NO sourcing on your opinions.. I wonder when Landmark is going to implement pets, so people can see how they work.. just like sword/bow/staff combat.. This should be interesting..
As I said about, you use your opinion as fact, maybe you don't mean to come across that way, but that's how I read it. "So, there is no need to tank anymore" doesn't sound like a simple opinion, that sounds like you know that tanks are not needed based on knowledge of the game. Just like you say EQN will have zergy DPS combat because action combat. Again, you might believe that, but you state it as a matter of fact, not opinion. Unless you know how the AI, skills, combat, and overall entire game will function, I'm not sure how you come to such direct conclusions. You could be 100% correct, but without proof I can't agree or disagree without only going off my own subjective hopes.
I've said multiple times that a lot of what I say is what I want or assume, not based on first hand knowledge. I do not go "EQN will have the best combat ever because XYZ". I have no clue how Storybricks or anything will work beyond what they have revealed.
I'm still in the faith and hope state while you've jumped straight to hard conclusions. This is pretty much my issue with what you have been saying. We simply do not know how any of it will work out. You went on and on about how pets can't work (at least how you want) in EQN, but have no evidence to prove your opinions. You simply do not think it is possible so it isn't. Not exactly staying objective.
"There can NOT be a true pet class like Warcraft's Hunter & Warlock" is a bit different then "I don't believe pets will work like WoW's or insert games." Again, you could be right, but until we see them, we won't know. Until then you are just making huge assumptions.
What made a Warlocks pet so unique? It is has some skills (which can be duplicated) and was able to target something and attack it. It is impossible for SOE to make a pet skill bar that has "Attack Target" which you hit while pointing at something? Add in some math where the pet doesn't always hit and ta da, almost got yourself a cloned pet. No they probably won't do that and no it might not 100% work like another games, but pets can work with enough creativity. I've played many games and they haven't all been carbon copies of one another. Crazy to think that devs have imaginations and new ideas do come along some times.
Boy,, I just can't wait to see how so called pets work in EQN when they get around to having a sample one in beta.. See how vulnerable they are to take damage, see how low the dps numbers get, etc etc.. Especially the tanking pet.. How does a pet tank in EQN without "taunt" now? Because there is NO flipping way on this AI world they have the intel to put themselves in a position to block foe from friend, and know WHEN to use that block skill as well.. TAUNT is the ONLY way AI tank pets reliably work, and taunt was removed from the line up.. Now what? I suspect there will be no tanking pets, and as one poster said, they'll act more like Tera's thralls, which are total jokes..
Is there a way to send an email to SOE to get them to talk about pets in a round table discussion, instead of how pretty Ogre buildings are? ROFLMAO I mean really, the last video they have was 90 minutes LONG of total horse crap BS on players buildings Ogre structures.. They keep saying they want the players to help "BUILD" the game with them, but yet they are lock jawed about what subjects and topics they want input on..
The more I see the more I believe it will be all dps all the time. No tactics or anything just jump around spamming your AOE abilities until everything is dead.
Originally posted by SlyLoK The more I see the more I believe it will be all dps all the time. No tactics or anything just jump around spamming your AOE abilities until everything is dead.
Thats as silly as saying this game is gona rock and be the best game of class dynamics ever. We dont even have the detail of one flashed out class or how combats gona work. Lets call it now and be done!!! lol
Boy,, I just can't wait to see how so called pets work in EQN when they get around to having a sample one in beta.. See how vulnerable they are to take damage, see how low the dps numbers get, etc etc.. Especially the tanking pet.. How does a pet tank in EQN without "taunt" now? Because there is NO flipping way on this AI world they have the intel to put themselves in a position to block foe from friend, and know WHEN to use that block skill as well.. TAUNT is the ONLY way AI tank pets reliably work, and taunt was removed from the line up.. Now what? I suspect there will be no tanking pets, and as one poster said, they'll act more like Tera's thralls, which are total jokes..
While they've said AI and pets will be "smarter," we don't know what this means. I see no reason why pets can't function similar to players when it comes to how enemy AI reacts as far as "tanking". Assuming they aren't going with the traditional agro-threat-hate generating skills or whomever does the highest dmg/healing gets a target on their chest resulting in ping pong, they must have something else planned.
Storybricks is supposed to work in combat just like non-combat. Utilizing needs/wants, like/dislikes or whatever algorithms. If a mob really doesn't like Rock Elementals, maybe a pet of that type will be a good tank? We really don't know yet. Also possible that players will have control of pets and their "tank" abilities. So a Bear pet could have a Claw Swipe that knocks enemies back/down and could be triggered by a player. Honestly isn't that hard to come up with possibilities that require crazy mechanics. EQ/WOW/GW2 all handle pets differently and so do the long list of games with them. No single way to do it.
Personally, I'm fine if pets can't main tank content easily, unless the class is at a terrible disadvantage otherwise. Goes back to the whole "smart" thing. If a pet isn't doing huge DPS or out performing it's master, I don't see why a mob would focus solely on it forever while the player casts/shoots/throws whatever at them from safety. There should be more risk involved.
Now I could see a pet doing most of the damage while the master keeps it healed/buffed and supports it instead. That would be an interesting dynamic. Pet dies, player is toast. Player doesn't support pet, pet is toast. They are a unit. Is this the traditional design where a pet is a sack of HPs sent to stand in front of another sack of HPs? Maybe not, but I think there could be a lot more creative, entertaining, and challenging ways to go about it.
Is there a way to send an email to SOE to get them to talk about pets in a round table discussion, instead of how pretty Ogre buildings are? ROFLMAO I mean really, the last video they have was 90 minutes LONG of total horse crap BS on players buildings Ogre structures.. They keep saying they want the players to help "BUILD" the game with them, but yet they are lock jawed about what subjects and topics they want input on..
Well BUILDING Ogre structures is building... That is where they are when it comes to player involvement currently. I've said a few times that your issues presented here are pointless. Email, tweet, PM them on the official forums, they do respond to people. Highly doubt they'll drop everything and put together a highly detailed overview of how pets work, but it's worth a shot to see their response in any form.
They have no reason to reveal such detail at this time as EQN isn't coming out tomorrow. Not that I wouldn't mind them sharing more exacts and less big picture stuff. They seem fine focusing on the actual world itself and less about what will be it in, which I really like. Too many game worlds are meh and just a backdrop to burn through content within. Hopefully over time, they'll start going into the more system/mechanic end of things, at least some version within Landmark. I want them to hold on to EQN specifics as long as possible.
BTW, they don't appear to want players to tell them what to do when it comes to building. We aren't in charge. Feedback and ideas on certain things seems to be more of what they're after. Such as which racial structures to focus on next, not tell them to explain pets because you need to know how they work.
Pretty important patch coming and while they haven't really said, I hope we see some "real" mobs, not just static plants, but not getting my hopes up. Might give a little insight into how combat might actually work in EQN's PVE.
Boy,, I just can't wait to see how so called pets work in EQN when they get around to having a sample one in beta.. See how vulnerable they are to take damage, see how low the dps numbers get, etc etc.. Especially the tanking pet.. How does a pet tank in EQN without "taunt" now? Because there is NO flipping way on this AI world they have the intel to put themselves in a position to block foe from friend, and know WHEN to use that block skill as well.. TAUNT is the ONLY way AI tank pets reliably work, and taunt was removed from the line up.. Now what? I suspect there will be no tanking pets, and as one poster said, they'll act more like Tera's thralls, which are total jokes..
Is there a way to send an email to SOE to get them to talk about pets in a round table discussion, instead of how pretty Ogre buildings are? ROFLMAO I mean really, the last video they have was 90 minutes LONG of total horse crap BS on players buildings Ogre structures.. They keep saying they want the players to help "BUILD" the game with them, but yet they are lock jawed about what subjects and topics they want input on..
Haha, I agree with you about some of the round table discussions.
There are still plenty of ways a pet could "tank" without an obvious taunt. It could have lots of cc or reduce the amount of damage its owner takes, remove conditions from its owner, generate more threat with its natural attacks, swap positions with owner, charm, etc... There are so many possibilities.
I think the skill system is more relevant to how the pets will turn out than whether combat is "action" or "tab-targeting". With four class skills to play around with from a "deck" or hopefully large pool of different class skills, there should be scope to have a really deep pet system. Also armor/weapon/item upgrades could impact pets, maybe a necromancers "mantle of the vampire" gives pet life drain on basic attacks for example. The possibilities are fairly robust I would say.
In terms of when the pet would take an action, wouldn't be cool if you could program your pet AI like in Dragon Age? More likely though it will just have a set AI with the player being able to activate key skills from the hotbar, which is similar to other games, but if you have four pet specific skills to use that would be pretty deep.
In terms of when the pet would take an action, wouldn't be cool if you could program your pet AI like in Dragon Age? More likely though it will just have a set AI with the player being able to activate key skills from the hotbar, which is similar to other games, but if you have four pet specific skills to use that would be pretty deep.
While I wouldn't mind a lot of control over pet AI, I agree that it will most likely be preset options of some sort. Would be interesting if they took the typical design a bit further. Such as setting pet to "Aggressive" would open up 4 offensive skills, "Defend" would be 4 CC/Defense skills, "Passive" could be 4 heals/buffs for player/group, etc. So we would decide if a pet is a tank, dps, support, etc instead of a generic pet design. Switching the pets stance/state as combat happens. I know some like pets because of the micromanaging aspect, this would make it more exciting I'm guessing.
While pets could still have default attacks and what not, I'd prefer players to control them for the most part and make them vital to gameplay instead of just a lump that might happen to act as a dot or meatshield if you send it into combat mindlessly.
If we could set up combos with our pets with either starting and the other finishing would also take pet classes to a whole new level. Type of combat or aim/target is really not very important, how creative and crazy the devs want to take the game is what it's all about.
Comments
In an action combat game does the pet have its own bar and attacks and you have to use the attacks and your own attacks too. Like take the scholar pet you ask it to use a buff or to heal not automatically but by clicking on the pet bar skill. I am not just talking about just setting behaviour but actively hitting the pet skills and also using your own skills too.
Can someone please give me the name of the action combat game that has this type of combat. This would be a true pet where you can control the actual attacks not just the behaviour. Some pets you summon then it does its own thing based on defend,attack or passive behaviour,those are simple pets that require no real skill to manage . No not like that but actively target and hit the various pet skills and your own would be a true pet class. The other type is considered a minion or companion depending on the level of the AI.
when EQN was announced in Aug 2013 - pets and pet AI were confirmed
http://www.reddit.com/r/EQNext/comments/1jn71m/lots_of_new_class_info_from_the_panel_pets/
There will be a variety of pets. Some permanent and some temporary. Pet AI much smarter in this game
how well they function we will see ...
EQ2 fan sites
I won't be surprised if you're 100% correct and yes they have sacrificed any meaningful pets on the altar of ridiculous "trendy" "action-combat" crap. EQ without TRUE, good pet classes? -worthless!- I love original EQ Necro, Mage and Shaman, they were my favorite classes! Without them at least something like they were in EQ1 I won't play this, not a chance.
because it's the sequel of everquest. up to them if they want to take the ip or make a new game out of it
The Ironic part here is that some people are complaining about EQN's features because it'll be too hard. It's too challenging to point at something and select abilities. I have still not seen a good argument as to why EQN cannot be "EverQuest" other than the fact that one will not be a carbon copy of the other. SoE is doing everyone a favor in trying something different, just like EQ originally was. The importance of EQ was not measured in it's graphics or targeting method and I'm surprised that people who really played and enjoyed it feel that way.
Landmark's name was changed for two reasons. The first is that it already crosses genres. Second is that they will be using it as a test platform for other future titles, not just EQN.
In the end pet control, other than it's native AI which EQN may have a better version of it, is just like the players own abilities. It doesn't matter if you click them on your UI or point at something and click a key, it's the same thing. I would argue that in an aimed environment you could actually activate these commands quicker and with more accuracy. Whether it's pointing at a mob and pushing a button for your pet to taunt or on an ally and having the pet heal/buff. There's a lot of promise where aimed pet control is concerned.
What SoE does with the two systems is yet to be seen.
You know when someone says "true _____", that they are trying to doing some kind of forum game. They get to shoot down any point as not being true to their opinion.
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
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I played EQ from shortly after launch until a bit after POP. EQN fits within the franchise perfectly fine to me. EQOA wasn't EQ, EQ2 wasn't EQ, EQN isn't EQ. They all should and do stand on their own.
Just because you need it to have XYZ exactly like a previous game doesn't detract what others believe. EQN isn't EQ, very true, but it is another game in the franchise/IP.
Then again, current EQ isn't the EQ I played, so I guess EQ isn't EQ? Madness in the gaming word!
Feel free to point out 10 features of EQ that make it what it was that haven't been duplicated in multiple games since and aren't owned by EQ itself. Factor in the current state of the game as well, not just the early years. What makes a game worthy of holding the EQ in front of the name?
Only things I can think of are the names (lands, npcs, mobs, skills, classes, items, etc) and the lore. Both of which will be in EQN in some form, not a huge difference compared to EQ2/EQOA. Mechanics wise, very little EQ features are unique now a days.
Allein... You and others are missing the whole point, especially when it comes to pet classes.. Your excuse and examples come from bad game/class designs, which even I would bitch about.. Pet's should only supplement it's master so they have the same solo'ing options as others.. Shaman's in EQ had pets which allowed them to solo most of the content.. The pet acted more as a tank with good dps ability, keeping the shaman from taking too much damage.. Beastlords and pets shared the dps/tanking together.. Necro's used the skelly mostly for tank distraction while fear kiting.. Mage had a variety of pets depending on what role they wanted to use them as..
WoW did a great job in using a variety of pets to fill certain roles.. normally tanking or dps.. Generally speaking, pets were always used to tank, allowing squishy classes to solo content.. EQN announced that the ole "tank/squishy" game play is GONE.. So, there is no need to tank anymore, and since agro grabbing (taunt for example) is removed, most pets now have no role other then to dps.. Does this mean that pet classes in EQN will only fill the dps role? and how much dps will EQN allow them to have, especially in a AIMED shooter combat type of game..
Traditionally dps pets supplemented it's master by doing a third of the damage in combat.. Will that remain true in EQN? Can a player just kite mobs around allowing their DPS pet (that NEVER misses) to chew up their targets? And what about pets that have range dps ability.. OOPS.. how do mobs SHOOT at players or other mobs that are moving all the time.. Can the AI "lead" a moving target, or will the AI "MISS" all the time shooting to where I"m not at anymore? or will the AI only do AOE range attacks, telegraphing WHERE they are shooting.. Zzzzz
Pets and Aim targeting host all sorts of problems, which can only be resolved by NERFING the shit out of the game.. Think about it.. An Evil wizard wants to cast a fireball at me, and I'm bouncing around like a bunny.. What are the odds that wizard ever hits me (a moving target)? I seriously doubt the devs at EQN can program an AI that learns to "lead" a target when shooting.. I suspect pets might end up being more like minor buffs/heals/ and dps that aren't needed by their master are mainly just fun perks... sorta like the bear pet Druids had in EQ.. LOL
Apparently it's not that simple, you offered nothing other than slights. That's fine, I'm looking forward to the game and I'm sorry your disappointed you didn't get your reskin. Oh I played EQ and IMO it was more a concept than a boxed world. It had names and places and a bit of lore but it was the concepts that were important. Group play, open world, and a challenge. The rest was a brand name, location names, and NPC names. There is an argument for those getting scrambled around a bit but I think the "reimagining" could gel really well, we'll see how it turns out. It's funny that you use a metaphor that is to blind when I'm actually seeing the big picture. Some people are getting so wrapped up in the small specifics that the larger whole is missed. That's my opinion at least.
What pet classes would you like to see and how could you envisage them being incorporated into an action combat system?
For example, I think pets could be controlled by:
1) A pet summons takes an ability slot, you summon the pet and it acts according to a predefined AI (perhaps pressing the summoning ability while pet is summoned makes it perform a special ability).
2) A pet is an intrinsic part of a class, and comes with additional skills such as attack/defend/special ability that are separate to class/weapon skills.
From what we know of how EQN is meant to work, I imagine a pet class would work something like (1), possibly with the options to slot additional pet-focused or player-focused abilities for the other class skills.
For example, I think there are going to be 4 class specific skills right? So if you wanted to make a pet-focused build you could choose one slot for the pet summon, one could be a pet heal, and the other two could be pet special attacks or synergies (eg: pet guards player absorbing 50% of damage (tank), pet and player do some devastating combination attack (dps)).
EQN could well have a deeper pet-based classes than any other major mmo to date given the flexibility of its class/weapon system and skill slotting. I am excited to see what the devs come up with.
Going by the two pets classes (Necro and Beastlord) already announced for EQNext, along with the skill system explanation (origin, slots, etc), it's probably more like 2). The pets are part of a classes, they won't be something you can share with all the other classes (all the none-weapon abilities can be used with any classes if you unlocked them).
The Necromancer's monstrosity was called a companion that gain in strength along with his master. This is a "always on" pet to me, not something you summons in the middle of battle.
Balancing pet classes isn't easy, but it can be done and even with Aiming and action combat.
I'd prefer them to supplement and be 1/3 or 1/4 the class or whatever portion that without a pet, the class is basically underpowered in some way and at a loss. There should be a symbiotic relationship, unlike the usual where a pet's death is no concern.
I think having a full tank pet that you can just leave to die and run to safety is bad or that can replace an actual meaty class and player. Same as sending a mob into a pack and letting it tear them up while eating a sandwich. While I don't want to totally get away from the traditional design, I do hope they go for more of maybe what GW2 had or something like that where pets are like another skill or two on the bar and not another class or two in the group.
I have to say.. I love it when you ask me to source every possible issue that EQN will most likely have, yet you have NO sourcing on your opinions..
I wonder when Landmark is going to implement pets, so people can see how they work.. just like sword/bow/staff combat.. This should be interesting..
Most of what you state above has to do with how SoE would chose to design the pets in general rather than the mechanical limitations of a pet class using aimed combat. These are two separate issues and we'll have to see what SoE does.
The one point you do bring up is how it would work when mobs stack. Either the game is programmed for mobs to stack in the first place or to automatically spread out. If they spread out there is no problem, right? If they do "bunch" then you create separation by moving around, one of the reasons to have aimed combat in the first place. MMOs like TERA, to a point, allow one to play aimed combat like tab (just standing there) but to really do your best is to move around when you're supposed to.
So far the footage we have of combat shows the mobs spreading out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsaLHtpFhfw
Boy,, I just can't wait to see how so called pets work in EQN when they get around to having a sample one in beta.. See how vulnerable they are to take damage, see how low the dps numbers get, etc etc.. Especially the tanking pet.. How does a pet tank in EQN without "taunt" now? Because there is NO flipping way on this AI world they have the intel to put themselves in a position to block foe from friend, and know WHEN to use that block skill as well.. TAUNT is the ONLY way AI tank pets reliably work, and taunt was removed from the line up.. Now what? I suspect there will be no tanking pets, and as one poster said, they'll act more like Tera's thralls, which are total jokes..
Is there a way to send an email to SOE to get them to talk about pets in a round table discussion, instead of how pretty Ogre buildings are? ROFLMAO I mean really, the last video they have was 90 minutes LONG of total horse crap BS on players buildings Ogre structures.. They keep saying they want the players to help "BUILD" the game with them, but yet they are lock jawed about what subjects and topics they want input on..
Thats as silly as saying this game is gona rock and be the best game of class dynamics ever. We dont even have the detail of one flashed out class or how combats gona work. Lets call it now and be done!!! lol
Pretty important patch coming and while they haven't really said, I hope we see some "real" mobs, not just static plants, but not getting my hopes up. Might give a little insight into how combat might actually work in EQN's PVE.
https://www.landmarkthegame.com/news/producers-letter-december-2014-landmark
Haha, I agree with you about some of the round table discussions.
There are still plenty of ways a pet could "tank" without an obvious taunt. It could have lots of cc or reduce the amount of damage its owner takes, remove conditions from its owner, generate more threat with its natural attacks, swap positions with owner, charm, etc... There are so many possibilities.
I think the skill system is more relevant to how the pets will turn out than whether combat is "action" or "tab-targeting". With four class skills to play around with from a "deck" or hopefully large pool of different class skills, there should be scope to have a really deep pet system. Also armor/weapon/item upgrades could impact pets, maybe a necromancers "mantle of the vampire" gives pet life drain on basic attacks for example. The possibilities are fairly robust I would say.
In terms of when the pet would take an action, wouldn't be cool if you could program your pet AI like in Dragon Age? More likely though it will just have a set AI with the player being able to activate key skills from the hotbar, which is similar to other games, but if you have four pet specific skills to use that would be pretty deep.
While I wouldn't mind a lot of control over pet AI, I agree that it will most likely be preset options of some sort. Would be interesting if they took the typical design a bit further. Such as setting pet to "Aggressive" would open up 4 offensive skills, "Defend" would be 4 CC/Defense skills, "Passive" could be 4 heals/buffs for player/group, etc. So we would decide if a pet is a tank, dps, support, etc instead of a generic pet design. Switching the pets stance/state as combat happens. I know some like pets because of the micromanaging aspect, this would make it more exciting I'm guessing.
While pets could still have default attacks and what not, I'd prefer players to control them for the most part and make them vital to gameplay instead of just a lump that might happen to act as a dot or meatshield if you send it into combat mindlessly.
If we could set up combos with our pets with either starting and the other finishing would also take pet classes to a whole new level. Type of combat or aim/target is really not very important, how creative and crazy the devs want to take the game is what it's all about.